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CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Korski, Sep 28, 2013.

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  1. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Typically, we wait until the art polls are completed before beginning our discussions on CAP's potential movepool. However, with the rollout of Pokemon X and Y coming in a short two weeks, the CAP moderators have convened and decided to speed up the process a little to avoid as much overlap as possible. In theory, art shouldn't have any effect on our competitive choices for the movepool, so it is indeed possible to move on without it. Still, we would like to remind everyone that this process change is an adaptation to a unique event and not the norm for future projects. This thread will open as soon as DarkSlay posts his OP, so keep an eye out and get your arguments ready!

    --------------------

    An attacking move is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose or one of its main purposes. All other moves are considered non-attacking moves. It is important to distinguish attacking moves, which can be used specifically to deal damage, from non-attacking moves, which are used for some major effects but may happen to deal a small amount of damage. For some moves, such as Rapid Spin, this is clear-cut. However, the classification of moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch are dependent on the user's ability to damage the opponent with the move. Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is also Pokémon-dependent.

    The Movepool Leader, DarkSlay, has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered attacking or non-attacking, and which are considered competitive or non-competitive, for this project. He will post a list of competitive attacking moves in the first reply to this thread, and classify them into five or six groups:
    • Required - Moves are those that must be in every movepool submission.
    • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokémon's final movepool
    • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be disallowed from the Pokémon's final movepool
    • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
    • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are allowed, disallowed, or controversial
    • Need Discussion (optional) - Moves that the Movepool Leader may want to draw specific attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.
    This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The community should make posts arguing for moves to be allowed or disallowed. The Movepool Leader will re-categorize the moves as the discussion progresses, until he deems the discussion over. The controversial moves will be put to a vote to determine whether they will be allowed or not.

    Remember that, technically, nothing is set in stone until the thread is closed.

    Rules for posting in this thread:
    • All posts should be presented with reasoning. NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated.
    • It is the responsibility of each user to check the OP before making any post in the thread, so as to stay relevant.
    • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited, even with explanations. Do not copy the Move Leader's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one.
    • The Movepool Leader and Topic Leader are the sole arbiters for determining "general community consensus". The Movepool Leader may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as controversial.
    • Non-competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered competitive. In this case, you can post reasoned arguments in this thread.

    --------------------

    CAP 6 so far:
    Typing: Steel / Flying
    Abilities: Intimidate / Volt Absorb / ???
    Stats: 50 HP / 92 Atk / 130 Def / 65 SpA / 75 SpD / 118 Spe
    LouisCyphre likes this.
  2. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    It’s time to show off our moves.

    Just looking at our concept and how the project has turned out so far, you know that the movepool selection process is going to be crucial for the success of CAP6. We’ve carved out a specific niche for CAP6 to fill, a Belly Drum sweeper, so the moves discussed in this thread should primarily focus on trying to help CAP6 carry out this role. This does not mean that every move must only be useful on Belly Drum sets and those sets only, but Belly Drum should be CAP6’s primary set. Keep this in mind when bringing up moves for discussion.

    A few ground rules in regards to discussing moves:
    • Yes, the concept is all about utilizing underused moves to CAP6’s benefit. However, this does not mean that a move is viable simply because it is an underused move. You will need to provide competitive rationale to justify selecting any move, and underused moves are no exception. I will be choosing the moves that make the most sense competitively.
    • Speaking of which, I’m a very thorough person. I use calculations, competitive examples, and justifications when talking about moves, and having that concrete information goes a long way to helping display your points. Therefore, put in as much thought as possible when bringing up and discussing moves.
    • The initial list is going to be pretty bare: that’s for a reason. Besides for a few key moves that have garnered significant discussion, I want to explore as many discussion opportunities as possible. The list is a “living document” and will be updated regularly. “Need Discussion” is where we’ll start with specific moves, and we’ll move on from there.

    Pending

    None

    Need Discussion

    None

    Required

    Aerial Ace
    Return/Frustration
    Hidden Power
    Facade

    Allowed

    Drill Peck
    Steel Wing
    Iron Head
    Bullet Punch
    Quick Attack
    Shadow Sneak
    Heavy Slam
    Ice Shard
    Mach Punch
    Hurricane
    Flash Cannon
    Normal coverage moves
    Dark coverage moves
    Ghost coverage moves
    Poison coverage moves
    Bug coverage moves
    Grass coverage moves
    Ice coverage moves
    Rock coverage moves
    Special Water coverage moves
    Aqua Jet

    Disallowed

    Fighting-based Coverage Moves Over 75 BP
    Fire-based Coverage Moves (Skarmory, Jirachi)
    Electric-based Coverage Moves (Skarmory)
    ExtremeSpeed
    Sucker Punch
    U-Turn
    Physical Water-based Coverage Moves (except Aqua Jet)
    Ground-based Coverage Moves

    Controversial

    Acrobatics
    Drain Punch
    Brick Break

    ---

    So now, what is DarkSlay looking for in discussions? Well, CAP6 is going to balance on a fine line as a Belly Drum sweeper: even some mediocre BP moves are going to hurt at +6. We need to make sure that the integrity of our list of checks/counters is not tampered with, and for the Attacking Move Discussion thread, this point is crucial. Again, calculations and reasoning are going to be key in both balancing CAP6 and making CAP6 relevant in the OU metagame. I prefer the community to explore all options for CAP6, and weed out options that go against the concept and hinder/overpower the role of CAP6 in the metagame.

    With that said, the floodgates have opened, and the move discussion has begun! Have at it, and make sure you all have fun. I’ll be checking the thread regularly and will be contributing to the discussion as much as possible as well. Have fun!
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  3. srk1214

    srk1214 Goddess of Light
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    OK, so I'd like to start this off by touching on the 2 things most important off the bat imo:

    First, we should specify between Physical and Special moves. I believe that in general, Special moves should be put into Allowed, perhaps with a cap on how strong they can be. Like "Special moves under 100 BP" or something.

    Secondly, Electric and Fire coverage (physical) should be disallowed, imo. Many people have pointed out how offensive teams are going to be able to deal with CAP 6 with Scarfers or Priority moves to revenge CAP 6. If we want to maintain defensive teams' viability vs a set-up CAP 6, we need to preserve Skarmory as a viable counter that can switch in on the Belly Drum. Electric and Fire coverage instantly damage this. I would also include Water coverage in with Electric and Fire, since they accomplish the same thing when boosted by Rain.

    (And as I said on irc, add Facade to required, since it's a VGM learned by all things that learn TMs in Gen V.) - thanks :)
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  4. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    I think when we're talking mainstays here, Bullet Punch is one of those moves that does so much for the concept in that it makes late-game sweeping so much easier. In the stat spread discussion calculations for Bullet Punch were provided, and Bullet Punch is far from overpowering. What Bullet Punch is, though, is powerful enough to take down weakened foes and seriously threaten weakened counters. Most of CAP6's counters, once reduced below 50% HP, can be finished off by a +6 Bullet Punch. That alone makes it a crucial move to allow.

    Quick Attack has similar utility, and fares better against some of CAP6's checks, but not enough to OHKO. Mach Punch is similar, but Mach Punch gets infinitely better matchups than Quick Attack. It also covers the same theats as Bullet Punch, though it is noteworthy that it is ineffective against Ghosts where nothing is immune to Steel.

    Regardless, Super-effective Mach Punch is going to do less damage than resisted Acrobatics, and Acrobatics works so wonderfully well with Belly Drum + Sitrus that I see it as hard to justify otherwise. I support all of these moves for allowed.

    Drain Punch is awesome. It might even be too awesome, because after a Belly Drum it can damage a Skarmory using Whirlwind enough to keep CAP6 in the game. Thos is true primarily because of CAP6's low HP, making each HP it gains that much more valuable. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to having the move, and if not that, at least Horn Leech to enable some kind of offensive longevity. Thanks to Volt-Absorb, half the time Rotom-W will be neutralized anyway, especially if it's stuck on a choiced Volt Switch. I support Drain Punch and Horn Leech for allowed.
  5. Fuzzie

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    I think that Iron Tail and Meteor Mash should be disallowed. They are both attacks that our CAP will get a STAB from, are physical, strong secondary effects and a BP of 100. This is a deadly combination that can lead to a sweep, and will wipe out enemies even before Belly Drumming. These could use further discussion, but at a first glance, it seems like these two can wipe out entire teams.
    I believe that Brave Bird should also be disallowed. Belly Drum already halves our HP, and with a low HP stat, Brave Bird will just take us dangerously low. It will also encourage using a build that steers away from the main idea of this CAP, Belly Drum. People are not going to opt for two recoil moves with such a squishy Pokemon. Brave Bird is powerful, and while it is balanced with recoil, it is unusable with Belly Drum.
    My final suggestion is to allow Metal Burst because while we do have a low HP stat, we can still deal a ton of damage if we survive a hit. Counter should also be allowed for the same reason, but perhaps it is not as important as Metal Burst, which provides STAB and is not reliant on the quantity of damage dealt to be useful.
  6. Ignus

    Ignus

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    Yay. Y'all don't know how long I've been waiting for this thread. In my opinion, this is going to be the most important part of this process this time around, if only due to the nature of our concept itself. So let's start by talking about some of the most borderline of the moves; moves that potentially change a situation where we expect to counter something or expect to be countered by something. So, let's talk about Acrobatics.

    First, let's run some calcs. When you have +6 attack: the first place to look is the 1hko zone.
    The power change between drill peck is extremely significant:
    Anything mentioned here will never be 1hko'd by drill peck.

    Let's talk a jolly nature first. 252 attack, 252 speed.
    Ferrothorn is 100% of the time KOd by Acrobatics.
    Rotom-W(choice) is 100% of the time KOd by Acrobatics.
    OU support Garchomp is 100% of the time KOd by Acrobatics. (Worth mentioning: Drill Peck does a Max of 99.28% of health)
    CM Reuniclus is 100% KOd by Acrobatics
    Gliscor is almost always KOd by Acrobatics


    Now adamant, same spread:
    All standard Dragonite variations are 100% of the time KOd by Acrobatics.
    All standard Rotom-W Variations are around 90% of the time KOd by Acrobatics.
    Choice Jirachi is KOd around 40% of the time


    So, how do I feel about this?
    Actually, pretty good. This is why I voted for this spread. We need the raw power of Acrobatics, if for no other reason then what could be the most defining pokemon in the metagame at this current moment: Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has a place on almost every team, And can easily cripple us if we aren't careful. Leech seed gives us a timer of 4 turns Maximum of not KOing a pokemon if we want to survive. Actually, 3 if you count the damage from Iron barbs and assuming we use Acrobatics. 2 with drill peck and even less if it's carrying the odd rocky helmet. And with stealth rock being every where... Yeah.

    In fact, we're supposed to threaten it. Not the other way around. At this point we NEED acrobatics.

    Now about Rotom-W. We specifically said we only want to be countered by physically-defensive Rotom-W. While no on-site spreads exist, even the specially defensive set is only KOd 25% of the time. A 252 hp 252 def Rotom takes at maximum of 83.16% of its health- more then enough to hit back with a shocking strike.

    That's not even mentioning how Acrobatics promotes a BellyDrum-centric build in the first place; how the use of berries and other wonderful consumables can benefit from you cutting your health. And how, in turn, it discourages the use of tools like choice band and bulky leftovers builds.

    In short, Acrobatics is useful. We need it. Allow Acrobatics.
    Jaiho and dwarfstar like this.
  7. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Fire based moves may be controversial , but I feel like Flame Charge might not be a bad option.
    It's a weak attack, so it wouldn't make the CAP some amazing steel-breaker, but it gives him a coverage move which, while it may not be exceptionally strong, does hit certain things that our CAP otherwise has a problem with super effectively AND grants a mini speed boost. BUT it costs us our only coverage move slot to include, which I think is likely a fair tradeoff.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
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  8. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

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    I'd like to start by talking about attacking move types rather than specific moves.

    Steel/Flying was partly chosen because it is not a good STAB combo, thus requiring raw power (e.g. +6 Attack) to muscle through threats. Thus, we need to look at high base power STAB moves and also good coverage combos with the STABs to help sweep.

    Since we have the non-attacking moves still TBD and many non-attacking moves that could hugely help CAP set-up, it would be beneficial to consider how well CAP could sweep given a moveset of Belly Drum, Non-Attacking Move and 2 attacks.

    Good two move combos with our STABs include:

    Flying/Water (resisted by Rotom-W)
    Flying/Fighting (resisted by Thundurus)
    Flying/Ground (resisted by Skarmory and Thundurus)
    Steel/Ground (resisted by Gyrados, Skarmory and Thundurus)

    The best secondary attack types for 2 move coverage in the OU metagame are Water and Fighting, closely followed by Ground, especially to combo with Steel which doesn't combo well with Flying or most types. So I would want to look at giving CAP Water, Fighting and Ground coverage at least, in order to promote the viability of a two-attacks moveset.

    Now I'll move on to talking about specific attacking moves:

    Bullet Punch and Non-Steel Priority Moves (Quick Attack, Mach Punch, etc.):
    Bullet Punch is an essential move for CAP to provide a threat to finish off weakened foes. Most of the stats discussion has been conducted with a +6 Bullet Punch in mind; we should definitely Allow Bullet Punch to function as our main priority attack as well as probably main Steel STAB.
    Quick Attack does not help our STABs being walled by Steel types and would likely only see use as a niche fourth option on an all-out attacking set, much like CB Terrakion. I would lean to Disallow Quick Attack in order to discourage a moveset with 4 attacks.
    Mach Punch provides excellent neutral coverage with our Flying STAB, allowing us to take care of Heatran and Magenezone while leaving Rotom-W and Skarmory as counters and needing prior damage to KO Jolteon. Mach Punch isn't an auto-Steel counter, it does a maximum of 70% against Ferrothorn. It also does more damage than Bullet Punch to Scarfed Rotom-W and Keldeo, allowing us to take them out if they are below 50% health:

    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 288-340 (89.16 - 105.26%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 270-318 (96.08 - 113.16%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 227-268 (83.76 - 98.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 143-169 (59.09 - 69.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 210-248 (59.65 - 70.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 165-195 (50.92 - 60.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Mach Punch has clear utility in taking out Steels but doesn't leave us overpowered - Allow Mach Punch.

    Aqua Jet is a good alternative to Mach Punch in that it has decent neutral coverage that can be boosted by rain, while keeping Rotom-W and Skarmory firmly as counters and doing pitiful damage to Ferrothorn. Scarfers such as Rotom-W and Keldeo can take a +6 rain boosted Aqua Jet as well.

    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn in rain: 79-93 (22.44 - 26.42%) -- possible 5HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W in rain: 107-126 (44.21 - 52.06%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in rain: 124-146 (38.27 - 45.06%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in rain: 130-153 (39.75 - 46.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone in rain: 202-238 (71.88 - 84.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Aqua Jet definitely isn't overpowered, but could be a viable alternative to Bullet Punch/Mach Punch on a two attacks set, or combo well with Drain Punch and Flying STAB on a 3 attacks set. Allow Aqua Jet.

    I haven't got time to post in calcs right now, but I would also support Allowing Earthquake to combo well with our STABs, particularly Steel STAB. It would completely remove Heatran and Magnezone as counters but wouldn't touch Rotom-W and Skarmory.

    I'd also like to voice my support for Deck and Ignus' arguments for Drain Punch and Acrobatics. Aside from being excellent moves to help us get the sweeping power we want, they also support Belly Drum a lot.
  9. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    I'd like to remind people of a potential danger in just listing moves and arguing in support of them individually. Each move influences the effectiveness of the other moves, and that can lead to a Pokemon with too much stuff. I'm not talking so much about making a Pokemon broken, but I'm just concerned about a situation where each individual move has a good reason to be there, but the movepool as a whole is excessive and not conducive to the concept. Right now, I see the movepool stage concluding with one of two routes:

    - Acrobatics included, coverage moves very limited, or
    - Acrobatics not included, a bunch of coverage moves included.

    I don't know if this is best addressed in the Attacking Moves Discussion or the Movepool Limits or even the actual Movepool Submissions stage, but I do think that it's something to keep in mind.
    Todd likes this.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    The combo of Acrobatics + Drain Punch + Bullet Punch will be essential to the CAP's success, so i will explain why each move of those three should be allowed and how will a set with those three moves function.

    First, we have Acrobatics. This move is useless prior to setup, as it has a paltry 55 BP, meaning that there is no fear of giving to the CAP's non-BD sets a too big of a boost. Acrobatics has two viable items to be used with on the CAP, Sitrus Berry and Flying Gem. The first will most likely be the most popular choice, as it increases the number of Pokemon the CAP can setup on and makes revenge killing the CAP with priority much harder, which is essential when you sacrifice 50% of your health to setup. The second item, Flying Gem, helps the CAP get past some of its checks, such as 252 HP Jirachi (104.95 - 123.51%), 252 HP / 252 Def+ Rotom-W (95.72 - 112.82%), and 252 HP Metagross (93.13 - 109.61%), which be useful but mostly situational. Seeing as Sitrus Berry will be much more important for the CAP than Flying Gem, i am going to focus on non-Flying Gem Acrobatics for now. Here are some useful calcs about Acrobatics:
    • vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 86.66 - 102.14%
    • vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 87.82 - 103.61%
    • vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 100 - 117.8%
    Obviously, Drill Peck doesn't even come close to OHKOing those Pokemon, all of which are common and good Pokemon that would hinder the CAP's ability to sweep otherwise. One could argue that it is possible to wear them down to the point that Drill Peck or Drain Punch can OHKO them, but i think the CAP has enough limitations going for it atm to worry about (inability to setup on almost any special attacker, extremely prone to revenge killing from Choice Scarf users, Jolteon, and some priority users, and lack of offensive presence prior to setup), and adding another 3 solid Pokemon to his counter list is not something we want to opt for. The CAP should be extremely hard to stop after it sets up, and getting stopped by three very common and good Pokemon doesn't scream ''hard to stop'' to me. Acrobatics for allowed.

    Then we have Bullet Punch. This is probably the most essential move to the CAP's success. I have stressed its importance since the stat spread stage, where i posted a ton of calcs to show how good Bullet Punch worked with my spread, and the spread we have atm is no exception. With Bullet Punch the CAP can get past some priority users, namely Breloom and Mamoswine, while also being that much harder to revenge kill with faster Pokemon. Here is the list of faster Pokemon that Bullet Punch OHKOes or has a big chance to OHKO after SR: Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Gengar, Scarf Latios, Scarf Salamence, Scarf Kyurem-B, Sawsbuck, Weavile. Also, with a Metal Coat attached, Pokemon such as Stoutland, Venusaur, and Choice Scarf Latias are OHKOed after SR as well. I think i don't need to stress how important those feats are, but i will anyway. Without Bullet Punch, the CAP gets revenge killed by two of the best and more common priority users in OU, Breloom and Mamoswine. It also loses to every single Choice Scarf user in OU, as well as Pokemon with weather related speed boosting abilities under their preferred weather, making the CAP literally useless against sun teams. This means that without Bullet Punch, the CAP has too many checks to be worth its trouble. Bullet Punch for allowed.

    Finally, we have Drain Punch. Drain Punch will be very important for the CAP for two reasons. The first is the coverage it provides. Drain Punch allows the CAP to get past Heatran and Magnezone, two Pokemon that would otherwise switch into the CAP almost with impunity and KO it (and before anyone talks about how +6 Acrobatics does a ton to Heatran, Choice Scarf Heatran gets a free switch-in to the CAP, which can't do any damage at all to Heatran prior to setup as Acrobatics will have only 55 BP). The second, equally important reason, is the healing it provides. Thanks to Drain Punch, the CAP can pull feats such as having enough health to be useful even after Skarmory phazes it (due to the recovery that +6 Drain Punch will provide), not die to Ferrothorn from Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet and be able to set up on it with near impunity if it has Volt Absorb (you are immune to Thunder Wave and it can't Leech Seed stall thanks to Drain Punch), and in general somewhat mitigate the 50% loss from Belly Drum. Lastly, something minor, but it allows the CAP to hit some of its checks moderately hard before setting up (Choice Scarf Heatran, Choice Scarf Rotom-W, Jolteon) without doing too much damage to them (as EQ would do, which would OHKO both Heatran and Jolteon on the switch for example). Drain Punch for allowed.

    Will add more to this post later...
  11. Ignus

    Ignus

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    Let me talk about how Acrobatics effects other moves. I was actually planning on talking about this originally, but I fell asleep. Oops. More specifically, I want to talk about how giving priority effects such a powerful move as Acrobatics. The first thing that should be said is that Acrobatics does a few specific things for us that are extremely useful. The first is that it limits our power to consumable item sets. Lack of leftovers recovery puts us in a place where we can't do the damage we need to be offensively threatening while still being able to have the staying power that recovery gives us.

    In order to explain how Acrobatics and Priority interact, let's talk about movepools.
    This is my basic theory on movepool. Those that build a set for a pokemon are either trying to compensate for what a natural pokemon lacks in the "power triangle," are trying to boost what they already naturally have, or are trying to do a combination of the two.
    Scizor is an extremely good example of the first method. Scizor has power. Technician and 130 base attack gives him Strength. His typing gives him a natural bulk seen in few pokemon as Strong as him. So what's missing to make this pokemon top tier? Priority finishes off it's triangle and makes it one of the strongest- if not the strongest - pokemon in the game.

    Cloyster, however is much closer to CAP, just with different points of the triangle being it's main focus. It has an emphasis, naturally, on strength through an average attack and skill link; and defenses through it's obscenely high defense. This combination alone is not horrible, and can easily still be useful as a rapid spinner. However, it's able to completely change it's nature through it's new toy it got in gen 5: Shell smash. It shifts from a defensive, strong pokemon to a fast, strong pokemon in one turn.

    THIS is what we're trying to accomplish. The ability to shift stance from a Fast, Defensive pokemon to a Strong, Fast pokemon as quickly and as suddenly as possible.

    This is the approach we must take with CAP 6. Our movepool has to be compensating for our final half of the triangle. We have speed and bulk based on our typing, ability and stat choice. Our final point of the triangle is our power. This is what belly drum does, and, by extension, what our attacking moves do. We have speed covered,so priority is not our most efficient placement for movepool. We need, in short, raw power. We have to be able to put ourselves in a position where turning 180 degrees extremely quickly is a viable and reasonable. This is what our concept is, and what our movepool must support.

    This is why I support Acrobatics. Once we shift to a Strong, Fast pokemon, we need to get out as much of it as we can. Our power is by it's very nature a semi all-in, and being unable to destroy the pokemon we're designed to handle in the first place is simply not an option. We need that raw power in order to be strong.

    On that note, This power is also why I dislike priority. Priority encourages us to choose an adamant nature, which starts to put us in a realm where we start to beat our pre-designated counters, such as Magnezone, Heatran, Rotom-W, and other Defensive threats. This is something we can't do, as our already narrow list of counters would shrink even further. Without priority such as bullet punch, we tend to prefer a jolly nature for its ability to outspeed things like lati@s and Gengar, who die to priorities mentioned in some of the above posts. It only unfocused of from our concept and our goal.
    Don't allow priority.

    That's all for now. Quote me and yell at me if something seems wrong or backwards. I like to argue.
    jynx KB likes this.
  12. Nyktos

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    Okay, let's look at that Needs Discussion list.

    Acrobatics
    I've seen a lot of arguments for and against Acrobatics that boil down to either "Drill Peck isn't strong enough, we need Acro" or "Drill Peck is strong enough, we don't need Acro". This is a really poor way to look at things because the "strong enough" is completely meaningless. Instead, let's look at what Acrobatics actually does. Setting aside Flying Gem (which can be used with Drill Peck too, let's keep in mind) for the moment, there are really only a few Pokémon against which the difference between 80 and 110 is incredibly significant: most of OU dies horribly to even Drill Peck at +6, and those that don't are mostly bulky resistors of Flying that don't care about Acrobatics either. Of those for which it does matter, the most important ones are Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Rotom-W, all of whose most popular sets are guaranteed to be OHKOed by Acrobatics after rocks but are never OHKOed by Drill Peck. (alexwolf's other examples of Hippowdon and max/max+ Landorus-T are not very relevant as the former is barely OU and the latter usually loses to Drill Peck with more common spreads.)

    A good way to look at it is that Acrobatics is secretly a coverage move for those three and a couple other less important Pokémon. It's slightly better than a normal coverage move, though, in that it doesn't use up an extra slot on CAP 6's moveset. So ultimately, discussion of Acrobatics should be framed not in terms of "power" but instead in terms of whether beating those Pokémon so conveniently is something we want. All three can be targeted by actual coverage moves too, so it's the convenience aspect that's most important, alongside the specificity of targeting these Pokémon and not, for instance, most other Steel-types. As for myself I haven't entirely made up my mind on Acrobatics, though I'm leaning towards opposition. However I would be happy to see stronger arguments for Acrobatics that address these specific strengths rather than simply appealing to "why don't we try more power?"

    Bullet Punch (and other priority)
    We didn't get a speed-boosting ability. As such, we need priority. There really isn't any reasonable way around it at this point. As it stands, CAP 6 loses to nearly every Choice Scarf user. It only outspeeds the absolute slowest ones (Tyranitar and Magnezone) and nearly all of them have at least one move that tears CAP 6 apart. While losing to some scarfers is inevitable and healthy (no sweeper should be unrevengeable), losing to essentially all of them makes the CAP completely worthless as a sweeper in OU. Every team carries a scarfer, and most teams carry one with more base Speed than Tyranitar. We need some way to cut down the number of revenge killers for this CAP, and Bullet Punch is that way.

    Bullet Punch effectively removes the likes of Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Salamence (with rocks), Venusar, Breloom, and non-Sash Alakazam as revenge killers. Latios also falls with a bit of prior damage. This is pretty far from making the CAP unrevengeable: the Water-type scarfers (Keldeo, Politoed, and Rotom-W) easily survive a Bullet Punch, as does Jolteon which naturally outspeeds. Despite its lack of resistance, no-investment Garchomp only takes around 70% from it too. Some less common scarfers like Heatran can also be used. There's no good reason to believe that Bullet Punch is overpowered, and very good reason to believe that it will be helpful. Allow Bullet Punch.

    As far as other priority goes, while specific moves can be used to remove select other revenge killers from the list (Ice Shard for Garchomp for instance), the 40 BP ones are mostly quite disappointing as far as calcs go. Even with an Adamant nature, CAP 6 only has a tiny chance to OHKO specially-defensive Heatran after rocks with a +6 Mach Punch, for instance. As such, these moves are rather unlikely to be worth a slot, so there's no particular reason to argue about them. Allow or disallow, it doesn't make much difference. ExtremeSpeed is another story. This move does more damage than Bullet Punch when both are neutral, and the difference in power is very significant. Nearly all the Pokémon I mentioned that can still revenge with Bullet Punch allowed fall to ExtremeSpeed, as do most of the Pokémon that fall to Bullet Punch (Terrakion being an exception). As such, it actually does come quite close to making the CAP unrevengeable and is fairly overpowered. Disallow ExtremeSpeed.

    Heavy Slam
    who cares lol

    Seriously, Steel STAB is bad, and aside from Bullet Punch unlikely to ever be used. Even if we make the CAP heavy enough that it has 120 BP against everything, nearly every Pokémon that fails to be KOed by Drill Peck also resists Steel (and the one exception, Tyranitar, is torn apart by Iron Head) so this doesn't really do anything. I guess if people are really worried about Hippowdon it can help??
    Homeslice and ganj4lF like this.
  13. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Would like to bring up for discussion Gear Grind, a move that perfectly complements Belly Drum by offering an attack that breaks up substitutes and will serve as a stronger STAB option than Iron Head. On that note I would also like to bring to the floor Bullet Seed, Icicle Spear, and Rock Blast. Each of these moves only really achieves viability after Belly Drum, but have the same Substitute-busting properties. Icicle Spear in particular can target Ferrothorn without activating Iron Thorns and hits for neutral damage, and also allows CAP6 to hit Ground, Grass, and Dragon types hard. Bullet Seed assists CAP6 in taking down Bulky Waters and Rotom-W, while its Sub-breaking potential is often hampered by the many threats that resist Grass. Rock Blast is neutral against Scizor and Rock coverage is always welcome.

    Would like to allow all of these.
  14. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    I really liked Nyktos's arguments on Acrobatics, and that's exactly why I think it should be allowed for CAP6. Being able to muscle through resistances without needing many coverage moves allows CAP to run sets like SubBD or Taunt + BD, which may be very desirable to increase its limited setup opportunities.

    I am not entirely decided on Drain Punch, it looks so awesome it may be too good (being able to offset BD's loss of HP AND provide great coverage with the Flying STAB of choice). I'm still inclined to allow it, since doing so allows everyone to consider its inclusion on a more fine-grained basis (i.e. the single movepool submission). For the same reason, I don't know if we should disallow ExtremeSpeed outright, or just let the movepool submitters decide themselves; in my opinion, CAP6 shouldn't get such a move since its great coverage and power are just unneeded when priorities like Bullet Punch and Mach Punch (which should both be allowed) can cover revenge killers nicely without risking to produce a too powerful result.
  15. Korski

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    Well I've been really looking forward to this stage, especially since our concept is entirely about the movepool. After some chat on IRC, I was reminded of this post in the second Concept Assessment by DougJustDoug that seems applicable to this discussion especially:
    I am of the belief that trying to pull off a Belly Drum sweep in OU is still right on the cusp of "more trouble than it's worth," so we'd be hard-pressed to go "too far" now that we have a Poke made up of half-measures for containing the inherent weaknesses of the strategy. Can this CAP reliably set up on a lot of stuff? No, but it can set up in a few situations that are mostly in the user's control. Is it impervious to revenge killing? No, but it is fast enough to suggest it can support its own sweep. Can it plow through the OU tier with little effort after boosting? No, there are a number of defensive Pokemon that can withstand even neutral attacks from +6 92 base Atk, and they are in some cases extremely common OU tanks and pivots that can OHKO back.

    Frigate Bird doesn't have natural power enough to function offensively without boosting, it doesn't have room to invest in bulk or to tank moderately strong hits (especially on the special side), and the consensus seems to be that we don't want to encourage non-Belly Drum sets by introducing a swath of viable boosting moves or non-offensive options to the movepool (I am no fortune teller on that last point so correct me if I'm off base). In other words, this CAP is laser-focused on requiring team support and Belly Drum to do anything of note as it stands, which is probably the most unreliable approach we've ever taken to measuring a CAP's in-battle success. What is there to nerf?

    Given the assumptions in Doug's post and in the entirely offensive direction this CAP has taken, I feel comfortable claiming that this Attacking Moves Discussion is pretty much it for the CAP. This is where we decide if we're "done" or not, competitively, with the moves we've already assumed or allowed (Belly Drum, Drill Peck, Bullet Punch, and niche or very-niche low-BP coverage like Grass or Dark), and I would wager there are a number of users who can justifiably say that we are. I'm not one of those users, though, and that's primarily because I think this CAP has been so thoroughly focused on making Belly Drum its premier set that we can afford to be more liberal with this stage than the previous ones, reflecting Doug's post.

    Still, I think it's important to prioritize the central notion that Belly Drum remain the Pokemon's best set. This means I don't think CAP should have tons of coverage options, lest a CB or LO set break out of the fray; in fact, I think it should only have one coverage move, and that is Drain Punch. My reasons for this were alluded to in my stat spread submission, but the main idea is that it provides another half-measure to the myriad of problems associated with pulling off a Belly Drum sweep, this time with the self-inflicted damage that makes the move so unreasonable and unreliable. I am not worried about hitting non-Scarf Heatran and Magnezone right off the checks list because I think CAP 6 deserves at least neutral OU coverage for going out and pulling off Belly Drum in this tier, and Drain Punch allows for just that. I'm not concerned about healing HP off of Skarmory for a second-go at setup because setup will already be a huge bother the first time (and I don't think too many people will argue with that), let alone the second time. I'm not concerned about breaking the CAP because at this stage Belly Drum is likely going to be its only option to stand out in the tier, and it's damn near impossible to break a Pokemon like that. Feel free to disagree.

    This is a long post already so I'll just leave it be and let the debate flow.
    Nyktos likes this.
  16. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    Generally like all of Nyktos and Alexwolfs' points, All Priority Barring Extremespeed for Allowed, Drain Punch for Allowed, Acrobatics for Allowed. I also think Deck Knight brings up a good point about Multi-hit moves, would agree they should be Allowed. Currently thinking Grass and Ground type coverage moves should be Disallowed. We've already nerfed the effectiveness of electric-types against CAP6 with the pick of Volt Absorb, so there's not much need to make sure we completely overwhelm them (grass is for Rotom-W btw) and we should be able to do enough to them with Drain Punch anyways. Fire and Electric both neuter Skarmory, Disallow. Don't care for Water/Fighting coverage, there's not much they'd bring to the table that Acrobatics/Steel Move/Drain Punch wouldn't bring to the table generally speaking.
    Drain Punch and Fighting coverage should probably be considered two different things, the secondary effect of Drain Punch is a crucial part of the argument of whether or not to use it.
    Also would like to remind people that allowed does not mean it will be in CAP6's movepool. That depends completely on whatever movepool we choose based off the mindset of who is making the movepool, so things like "I like these but not together" shouldn't be the strength of your argument.
  17. srk1214

    srk1214 Goddess of Light
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    OK this has been pretty slow, and mostly one-sided, so I thought I'd add a bunch more thoughts.

    I think it is incredibly important that Drain Punch not be in this movepool if Acrobatics is allowed. Bulky attacking sets are bound to be usable if we don't keep a close watch and anything that pushes these over the edge will distract from Belly Drum. I'm all in favor of having Fighting coverage, in the form of Brick Break. But I think it's important we don't accidentally create a general bulky pivot. For example, Intimidate + Lefties + Drain Punch is going to just utterly ruin the day of Terrakion without even needing to set up (and yes Drain Punch matters, since Iron Head doesn't OHKO anyway, and we're faster than many Terrakion.) This also gives us better matchups v Ferrothorn and Skarmory than I think we deserve.

    The coverage is what matters. The healing is gratuitous and can only result in being unintentionally (or in the case of some people here... very intentionally) better than we need to be.

    As for Acrobatics, I have come to the conclusion that allowing it is paramount. Why? Setting up against a defensive team is pretty hard to do without running a SubBD or TauntBD set (Taunt is a matter to come later...). I think having a move like Acrobatics which specifically is needed to bust through defensive teams compensates for that. Drill Peck is plenty sufficient against offensive teams. Additionally, while AcroGem sets are super powerful, they can be smelled out a mile away, when Sitrus doesn't activate post-Belly Drum and are a one time use thing. If the opponent accurately predicts the AcroGem coming towards his Skarmory he switched in on the Belly Drum, he can sac a teammate and then bring in Skarm again for the safe phaze opportunity, ending CAP 6's fun. Additionally, Flying Gem has many tradeoffs in terms of ease of set up and longevity v opposing priority users and scarfers.

    Onto the priority! I don't need to argue in favor of Bullet Punch at all. I think everyone recognizes how this move is important to CAP 6's success. I think that offering Mach Punch would not be devastating and it does offer niche benefits, but I'm not so sure we need them. Same goes for all other priority, really. I do think however that Sucker Punch and ExtremeSpeed absolutely must be disallowed. I'm not so passionate about the other base 40s (quick attack, mach punch, shadow sneak, aqua jet).

    As for the coverage, I see no harm in Grass coverage being allowed as a super niche option v Quagsire. I think it is a fair option to exist if people honestly do start to use Quagsire in OU just for this guy. Again, I'd prefer it be Seed Bomb to Horn Leech, however. Draining is unnecessary. I already expressed my opinions on Electric/Fire/Water above, so I'll skip those. Now what does that leave? Ground coverage. I think we only need one of Ground/Fighting. And the important part about Ground is how it lets us threaten a whole bunch of things without a Drum. ScarfTran can't switch in so freely. We can also switch in and revenge Magnezone even when we don't have Volt Absorb. These are things we don't really need to be able to do, so I would advocate against Ground coverage, provided we allow Fighting coverage.

    And all that's left is Heavy Slam. Which is a fun option that we can make as strong as 120 BP. This would HEALTHILY encourage a CB set for example, without accidentally making it overpower the Belly Drum set. This would be best accomplished by setting CAP 6 to a high, but not super high weight and offering Heavy Metal as a flavor ability to power it up. I doubt that any Belly Drumming CAP 6 however would sacrifice either Intimidate or Volt Absorb for such a marginal benefit, since there's likely no space for it anyway on the standard BD set.



    TL;DR
    Allow: Acrobatics, Brick Break, Heavy Slam, Bullet Punch, Seed Bomb (aka non-draining Grass coverage)
    Disallow: Drain Punch, Horn Leech, Fire coverage, Electric coverage, Water coverage, Ground coverage, ExtremeSpeed, Sucker Punch

    Still Pending: Mach Punch, Quick Attack, Shadow Sneak, Aqua Jet
  18. Pata Hikari

    Pata Hikari

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    With any fighting coverage Terrakion is walked all over by CAP6 though.

    With Jolly so CAP6 can outspeed it
    252 Atk (custom) Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 142-168 (43.82 - 51.85%) -- 11.72% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk (custom) Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 142-168 (43.82 - 51.85%) -- 68.75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Adamant for extra power
    252+ Atk (custom) Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 156-184 (48.14 - 56.79%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk (custom) Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 156-184 (48.14 - 56.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Heck, Terrakion isn't even really supposed to threaten CAP6 though, especially since it'll actually be using it's steel STAB, thus hitting Terrakion super effectively

    Drain Punch is really needed in order to actually let Belly Drum work. With it CAP6 can survive and not just be fodder to the first priority user encountered.
  19. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Like who in particular? Odds are good that with belly drum, our CAP will be running sitrus berry, especially if it also has acrobatics. So, given our high speed, good physical bulk, and lack of a weakness to any priority attack, how many pokémon can REALLY survive a +6 STAB bullet punch and then also deal 75% damage to us with heir own priority attacks.

    Drain Punch gives us an amazing coverage attack, but it also counteracts the primary tradeoff of belly drumming. I think it does that job too well on the CAP, and makes it too hard to counter if it's allowed to set up.

    As has been mentioned earlier, I am potentially okay with it as long as it can't run acrobatics on a drain punch set because then there's a tradeoff of a weaker STAB for that amazing coverage move, but, with acrobatics, I really think that Brick Break should be enough


    I think you also need to consider that after a flying STAB and Bullet Punch and Belly Drum, you only have room for ONE coverage move. If it's a subpar attack that you are bringing JUST to deal with one threat, (like maybe flame charge or thunderbolt for Skarmory ) then isn't it an acceptable tradeoff that you have wasted a move slot for ONE pokémon?
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
  20. jas61292

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    I know my opinions here will probably be in the minority, but I really feel that we should not be giving this Pokemon either Acrobatics or coverage of any type that hits Steel Super Effective. People in this thread have already provided the calcs on Acrobatics, so I won't get into that, but, as Nyktos said, the calcs themselves don't say anything. Acrobatics lets us beat certain Pokemon we otherwise couldn't without coverage. The question is, do we want that? I say no, we don't.

    People who have been supporting Acrobatics have been basically riding on one thing that I think is false: that OHKOs on our checks is not just something good, but something necessary. Now I'm not going to argue whether beating these Pokemon is necessary or not. What I am going to argue is that being able to OHKO these Pokemon is irrelevant, and makes us overly powerful for no good reason. Here is a fact: if you are using Belly Drum you are going in for the kill; trying to end the battle. Like it or not, CAP6 will be a late game sweeper. If you are playing a good game with a good team, your opponent can't just hold back its walls from ever coming in the battle. They will be battered, they will be weakened. They will be taking switch in hits, and hazard damage. Simply put, OHKOs are irrelevant because these Pokemon will not be at full health. So, when you talk about "only" doing 80% to some checks, that is still going to be enough to get the necessary KOs the majority of the time. And, with that in consideration, I believe the extra power from Acrobatics becomes overkill. One thing that really scares me is the ability to use Flying gem with it, since with that gem, there is literally nothing that can switch into us at all. I feel the ability be straight up break any Pokemon in the game is makes us unnecessarily threatening to defensive teamstyles, when, with our speed, the ability to threaten more offensive Pokemon is something I think we should be much more concerned with.

    On the same note, I don't want any coverage for hitting steel types because it makes us practically impossible to counter defensively. There are few enough defensive checks as is, removing them to make us simply better is completely unnecessary. With that said, I am not completely opposed to something like Brick Break. It provides some minor useful coverage, but still leaves us fully checked by Skarmory and Jirachi. The power on it is enough to take down things weak to it, but it is not enough to tackle bulky pokemon with neutralities. Now, sitting at that exact same power is Drain Punch, but I feel that this move is incredibly dangerous as, like I have said for other things, it removes defensive checks unnecessarily. Now, its true that it is not KOing anything more, but it give the ability to get out of matchups with our counters relatively unscathed, preventing them from doing their job against us properly. I don't really mind the HP drain so much, but I do mind what it would have us draining from, since those pokemon should really not be under pressure when switching in.

    Basically, what I am saying overall is that we do not need, and should not be giving, power to beat our defensive checks. Those checks are already few and far between.

    On the flip side, I think we should definitely be giving CAP 6 Bullet Punch. Offensive checks are much more numerous, so the ability to limit which scarf pokemon can revenge us is important. However, with that said, I don't think we should be getting any other priority that gives good coverage, nor more powerful priority in extremespeed or sucker punch. Again, while offensive checks are more numerous, they are still limited, and they are easy to spot. As always, we need to remember we are just one in six on a team, and we should not be limiting our checks and counters down to such a small number that you can not even have to think about them with the right teammates. Bullet punch and our natural speed will do more than enough to limit our offensive checks to a manageable amount.
  21. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    CAP6 might have a massive Base 118 Speed, but the lack of Speed boosting Ability means that it needs priority in order to not be complete bait for Scarfers. As a Belly Drum user, we're likely only going to get one chance to set up and one chance to sweep. Other Physical sweepers can deal with Scarfers by switching out or with their natural bulk, but CAP6 has no such thing. Therefore, it has to be able to deal with Scarfers by attacking them. Although we shouldn't be dropping every Scarfer in the tier at the press of a button, we should be beating some handily. Priority attacks are often conducive to Attack-boosting natures, and I certainly stressed that during the Stats stage, so these calcs will involve both Jolly and Adamant natures. I don't think anyone's fretting about Bullet Punch before the +6 boost, so I'll only calc for post-boost. The Pokemon I'm calcing for are Pokemon faster than Adamant CAP6, common users of priority attacks, and Pokemon that commonly run Choice Scarf. As you may expect, there's a lot of overlap in those categories!


    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 452-534 (139.5 - 164.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 113-133 (34.98 - 41.17%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, Adamant is (38.08 - 45.2%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 249-294 (82.72 - 97.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, Adamant is (90.69 - 106.97%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 155-183 (57.19 - 67.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, Adamant is (62.73 - 74.16%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 355-418 (168.24 - 198.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 129-153 (49.42 - 58.62%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 125-147 (38.69 - 45.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 340-402 (101.79 - 120.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 313-370 (119.46 - 141.22%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 136-161 (46.41 - 54.94%) -- 65.23% chance to 2HKO, Adamant is (51.19 - 60.4%)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 103-122 (30.02 - 35.56%) -- 31.42% chance to 3HKO, Adamant is (33.23 - 39.06%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 216-255 (66.66 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, Adamant is (73.14 - 86.11%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 120 Def Toxicroak: 249-294 (67.66 - 79.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, Adamant is (74.18 - 87.5%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 294-346 (93.63 - 110.19%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO, Adamant is (102.54 - 120.7%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 494-584 (136.84 - 161.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 82-97 (23.97 - 28.36%) -- possible 4HKO, Adamant is (26.31 - 31.28%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 249-294 (95.03 - 112.21%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO, Adamant is (104.19 - 122.9%)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Bullet Punch vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 216-255 (56.69 - 66.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, Adamant is (62.2 - 73.22%)

    Since Bullet Punch is meant to deal with would-be revenge killers, let's see what that narrows our revenge killers down to.

    Pokemon that consistently or somewhat consistently revenge Jolly CAP6 with Bullet Punch: Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Latios, Jolteon, Scarf Starmie, Alakazam, Scarf Infernape.

    Pokemon that consistently or somewhat consistently revenge Adamant CAP6 with Bullet Punch: Keldeo, Jolteon, Starmie, Alakazam, Infernape, Scarf Gengar,

    Pokemon that can "pick off" CAP6 with Bullet Punch: Scizor, Dragonite, Toxicroak, Choice Band Metagross, Conkeldurr.

    This is a decent set of counters, and remember that this doesn't include Pokemon that wall or defensively stop CAP6. This is only a list of Pokemon that can (can does not mean will) defeat CAP6 after setting up using offensive means. It's important to look at the numbers here. If CAP6 has more than 18% or its HP left, then Metagross doesn't pick us off. If Keldeo has 40% of its health left, then it really can't revenge Adamant CAP6 but it can pick off Keldeo. Either way, there's nothing that screams "too broken!" about our Pokemon having the most difficult setup in OU and still being picked off by the Keldeo, the best Scarfer in OU. Allow Bullet Punch.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Acrobatics:

    Acrobatics is the linchpin of CAP6's movepool. It should not be rubber stamped onto our movepool, but this stage of the process depends entirely on whether Acrobatics is allowed or not. Acrobatics practically mandates the use of Sitrus Berry (although Flying Gem is plenty surprising-and viable), but Sitrus Berry is already most likely the best item for CAP6, who needs to reduce the self-inflicted Belly Drum damage as quickly as possible. Acrobatics is probably the most pro-concept move possible for this CAP, as it is useless before the Sitrus Berry is consumed and CAP6's best move after. Although the possibility exists that CAP6 may want to just take a hit, activate the Sitrus Berry, then try to sweep without using Belly Drum at all, CAP6's unspectacular Base 92 Attack should prevent that from happening. For example, take Acrobatics against the premier walls of OU:

    252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-129 (30.96 - 36.64%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 90-106 (25.42 - 29.94%) -- possible 4HKO
    252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 244 HP / 40+ Def Gliscor: 114-135 (32.38 - 38.35%) -- possible 4HKO

    I won't bore you with calculations against Jirachi and Skarmory, but let's just say they make these look like guaranteed OHKOs. Although Flying Gem Acrobatics may overshadow Belly Drum to an (extremely small) extent, if CAP6 isn't using Belly Drum it has no shot of sweeping and is largely outclassed by Gliscor, who's stronger and has Swords Dance, Agility and Earthquake. Flying Gem Acrobatics CAP6 also needs the Belly Drum boost or else it becomes extremely easy to revenge even with priority. Bullet Punch from 283/311 Attack isn't scaring anyone, either.

    I would like to point out that CAP6's Acrobatics, especially with an Adamant nature, is absurdly strong. Acrobatics at +6 absolutely shatters everything that doesn't resist it, as shown by the following calculations. Although Acrobatics works very well with the concept, the move's raw power is frightening.

    +6 252 Atk (custom) Acrobatics vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 391-462 (111.07 - 131.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Acrobatics vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 322-379 (90.96 - 107.06%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO (Adamant is 100% minimum)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Acrobatics vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 349-412 (99.14 - 117.04%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO (Adamant=guaranteed OHKO)
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Acrobatics vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 161-189 (49.23 - 57.79%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Acrobatics vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 177-208 (54.12 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 264-312 (80.73 - 95.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 283-333 (70.04 - 82.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 311-366 (76.98 - 90.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 269-317 (83.28 - 98.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 296-348 (91.64 - 107.73%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 267-315 (69.35 - 81.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 293-345 (76.1 - 89.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    It's a judgment call, but this is too much. We' cannot comport with the threats list with this kind of power. Jirachi can't take our attacks without being at full health, and then we still beat the Physical attacking ones even with Body Slam hax thanks to Bullet Punch. Adamant CAP6, as we see here, scoffs at Heatran and Jolly isn't particularly kind to it either. Drill Peck, our next best option, can be used with Flying Gem, but at least Drill Peck doesn't get souped-up into a counter-destroying nuclear reactor when coupled with Flying Gem.

    The argument for Acrobatics is that we need it. Our next best option is Drill Peck, which is a huge drop in power from Acrobatics. Without Acrobatics, we have a little trouble countering the Pokemon we need to counter:

    +6 252 Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 286-337 (81.25 - 95.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 313-370 (88.92 - 105.11%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Jirachi: 185-218 (45.79 - 53.96%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Jirachi: 203-239 (50.24 - 59.15%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 206-243 (50.99 - 60.14%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 226-267 (55.94 - 66.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 195-231 (60.37 - 71.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 216-254 (66.87 - 78.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 195-229 (50.64 - 59.48%) -- 82.42% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 213-252 (55.32 - 65.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-138 (35.77 - 42.2%) -- 92.43% chance to 3HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Drill Peck vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 128-151 (39.14 - 46.17%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Yikes. We're not hitting with the same sort of power as we are with Acrobatics, but those power issues can be mitigated with coverage and/or increased priority. These calcs aren't abhorrent, they just mandate Stealth Rock on the field if we want any shot at getting past our checks. These Pokemon (except for Ferrothorn) are supposed to check us anyway, so I'm not worried about us not hitting them hard enough. Jirachi already has a hard time beating us anyway without Thunder(bolt), and Skarmory can only Whirlwind us anyway. I'm okay with these calculations, and for that reason I believe Acrobatics should be Disallowed.

    Non-Steel Priority moves:

    These moves are just for shaping our checks and counters list. The moves to discuss here are Mach Punch, Quick Attack, Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet, and ExtremeSpeed.

    Let's start with the easiest ones. Quick Attack is by far the least viable of the bunch. Jolteon, Starmie Keldeo, and Infernape are the only Pokemon on the list above to be hit harder by Quick Attack than by Bullet Punch, and Bullet Punch outdamages Quick Attack greatly by a large amount on every other Pokemon that could offensively threaten CAP6. Quick Attack might be used on a dual priority set in tandem with Bullet Punch (assuming BP is allowed), but Quick Attack really toes the line of viable versus gimmicky. Furthermore, none of the Pokemon that fear Quick Attack more than Bullet Punch are on our Threats discussion, so it would be neither anti-concept nor broken to allow Quick Attack. That's good enough for me. Allow Quick Attack.

    Mach Punch is a little dicier. Obviously the calculations post-Belly Drum are the only ones that matter, as CAP6's Mach Punch is otherwise weaker than a Donphan's Ice Shard. The super-effective hit on Steels is what matters when talking about Mach Punch, as a Super-effective Mach Punch is stronger than a resisted Drill Peck but weaker than a resisted Acrobatics. If we move on under the assumption Acrobatics is Disallowed, then Mach Punch becomes much more reasonable. For example,

    +6 252 Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 151-178 (46.74 - 55.1%) -- 69.14% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 165-195 (51.08 - 60.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 182-215 (62.11 - 73.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 200-236 (68.25 - 80.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 207-244 (76.38 - 90.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 227-268 (83.76 - 98.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    According to the Threats Discussion, Choice Scarf users of Base 100 Speed or higher should be possible checks. I interpret that as meaning that some should check us while others shouldn't. Keldeo is going to check us unless we give CAP6 ExtremeSpeed (don't do it), so that's not a problem. Jolteon has no shot of checking us without Specs HP Ice, and Infernape is the only fast Pokemon in OU that takes more damage from Mach Punch than from Bullet Punch. It still retains its "possible check" status.

    Now, against defensive checks:

    +6 252 Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 138-163 (34.15 - 40.34%) -- 45.63% chance to 3HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 152-179 (37.62 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 138-163 (40.46 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 152-179 (44.57 - 52.49%) -- 21.48% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 260-308 (67.53 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 286-338 (74.28 - 87.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 262-310 (74.64 - 88.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 288-340 (82.05 - 96.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 79-93 (24.15 - 28.44%) -- possible 5HKO
    +6 252+ Atk (custom) Mach Punch vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 86-102 (26.29 - 31.19%) -- possible 4HKO

    As you can see, Jirachi remains a check against us. Adamant CAP6 has a chance of breaking through Jirachi with Drill Peck and Mach Punch, but the Jolly set will fail to defeat Jirachi if it paralyzes us. Furthermore, if Jirachi uses Fire Punch, we're toast unless it's Raining. Heatran loses some of its ability to check CAP6 if we give it Mach Punch, but ScarfTran revenges us unconditionally if Stealth Rock is not down, and Jolly CAP6 only has a minuscule chance of KOing Heatran with a Mach Punch even post-Stealth Rock. Defensive Heatran can still defeat us, though if it's switched into Stealth Rock twice it might have problems. Furthermore, I doubt all CAP6 will run Mach Punch, so Heatran still can come out on top against the majority of CAP6. Skarmory is still the rock-solid counter it needs to be. If I haven't been clear enough, I mean we need to Allow Mach Punch.

    Ice Shard is an inferior Mach Punch. The only Pokemon it lets us defeat that we don't defeat already is Dragonite with Multiscale active, who is not a check anyway. Furthermore, Ice Shard defeats all the Ground-types like Landorus-Therian we're supposed to beat. Ice Shard is barely viable and largely outclassed by either Bullet Punch or Mach Punch. With no arguments against it, Allow Ice Shard. Same argument for Shadow Sneak, Allow it too.

    Aqua Jet is too much because of Rain. Under the Rain, Aqua Jet becomes a much better Bullet Punch. The main reason why Aqua Jet needs to be Disallowed is because it obliterates Heatran in a way Mach Punch could only dream of. In the Rain, imagine all of the Mach Punch calculations a paragraph above but multiplied by 1.5. That means Jirachi takes over 50%, Heatran is obliterated, and Skarmory is 3HKO'd by Aqua Jet. These Pokemon are supposed to check us in some way or another, and Aqua Jet just makes that harder to do (or impossible in Heatran's case). Jirachi can't check us anymore because we're just ram through its attempts to Flinch us with Aqua Jet. Furthermore, Fire Punch in the Rain is not enough to take down CAP6. We should not be encouraging CAP6 in the Rain any more than we have to, and Aqua Jet massacres our would-be checks. No thanks, Disallow Aqua Jet.

    ExtremeSpeed is an extreme no-no. We massacre Keldeo with it while hitting every would-be check with the power of a Mach Punch. ExtremeSpeed eliminates all Scarf users bar Heatran from killing us, it stops any non-Scizor priority in its tracks, and it kills another possible check in Thundurus-Therian. Disallow ExtremeSpeed.

    The list of priority attacks concludes with Sucker Punch. Sucker Punch massacres Jirachi, making it a better Mach Punch. Jirachi should not be forced to play Calm Mind mindgames with us or just curl over and die if it's the Specially Defensive set. We don't need to give this Pokemon Sucker Punch when Mach Punch does the job we want it to do. Disallow Sucker Punch.

    Heavy Slam:
    Allow Heavy Slam. It's not viable, and you wouldn't want to use it anyway.

    tl'dr version:


    Allow: Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, Ice Shard, Quick Attack, Shadow Sneak, Heavy Slam
    Disallow: Acrobatics, Aqua Jet, ExtremeSpeed, Sucker Punch
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
    Nyktos and ginganinja like this.
  22. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Agreeing with Lolcat's post RE those moves

    For me, what it boils down to is how faithfully do we want to stick to the Threat List discussion we created. Magnezone, Breloom, Heatran, Skarmory, and Jirachi were basically the only 5 mons we declared should counter this CAP. Breloom we beat now thanks to outrunning it and outprioing it, Magnezone can no longer use its electric STAB (and we outrun it so LOL), against us, and I see support for a +6 Drain Punch which threats Heatran, heals us up vs Skarmory a significant amount etc, and Acrobatics, which nukes these mons as well. Like, I won't name names, or call anyone out in particular, but it just seems some people seem hellbent on beating everything the TL said we shouldn't beat.

    So like, do we just ignore the entire threat list discussion we had, or do we take the discussion on board and stick with what we agreed. I am just slightly confused as to why some people seem to be going out of their way to ignore that list and idk if thats something we should be doing?
    Ignus, jas61292 and DetroitLolcat like this.
  23. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Btw, I ran the numbers for Flame Charge on this pokémon and got these numbers:

    Vs. Skarmory = 64.1% - 76%
    Vs. Jirachi = 67.3% - 79.7%
    Vs. Magnezone72.1% - 84.9%

    So I've decided, that Flame charge should probably be allowed, but Any physical fire attack above 60 BP should be disallowed, they are just too strong against our supposed counters. I already hate that we have totally decided that one of our outright counters, Magnezone, and one of our strongest checks, Joleton, just shouldn't be able to counter us anymore and, in fact, are completely countered by us., we don't need to be able to break EVERY counter.
  24. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
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    The problem with Flame Charge, is that it not only hits 2-3 of the mons on our threat list fairly hard, but it ALSO boosts our speed making it even tougher for us to revenge kill. With 118 base speed, at +1 next to nothing outspeeds us, letting us murder pretty much anything in addition to removing some of the counters on our list.

    According to you, Flame Charge does 64% (65% on my calc but whatever) min to Skarmory....which is just 23% short of a KO when you factor in Stealth Rock. This means that if I get Skarmory to 77%, and then Belly Drum, then I win, period. As it stands, thats not much, and when you factor in calculations vs Jirachi and magnezone, then that amount of residual damage gets smaller and smaller. Sure, its not instantly sweeping from Turn 1, but Flame Charge boosting its speed makes Cap 6 every difficult to shut down once it pulls off that speed boost, heck, with Sitrus boosting it to around 75% or whatever it is, you could potentially get away with using Flame Charge on a NVE hit just to make yourself unrevengeable. Personally, I just think Flame Charge to hard to balance considering it not only removes revenge killers from the equation, but it also removes 3 pokemon from the checks / counter list that we have, and thats a hard pill to swallow.
  25. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Do you honesty feel that that is any worse than allowing drain punch?

    In any case maybe it is. Maybe we shouldn't have access to ANY coverage moves after we gave this CAP volt absorb, it simply won't have enough counters left
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