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CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Korski, Sep 28, 2013.

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  1. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Three things are very important to remember:

    We want BD to be the best set available for CAP 6

    Try to remember how bad BD sets are in general, and remember that if we give this thing serious business coverage, it could theoretically end up as a mixed LO attacker that functions as a pivot, uses good super effective coverage to threaten Pokemon around, and so on. Also remember that we need moves that complement a BD set and the fact that after we drop BD we're now at 50% HP or potentially higher thanks to whatever item we've equipped. Does that cost make it more favorable to just attack outright and not risk it? That's what needs to be weighed, and is why I think moves like Earthquake or CC should be outright out, and why we should look at things from that perspective.

    We want this Pokemon to maintain its counters

    It's easy to make a Pokemon too good for OU, but if we do that, it'll be too good for OU without the help of Belly Drum because Belly Drum requires a lot of headache to properly set up. Part of playing Pokemon is targeting counters and eliminating them before you can enable a sweep. Remember that many of our counters are Steels, and so we can work with that and the help of things like Magnet Pull Pokemon to really enable a CAP 6 sweep. This tells me immediately that we really don't need moves like Flame Charge or Drain Punch or even things like Brick Break to be effective. I certainly don't think we should relegate CAP 6 to bare STAB attacking options because then it will be a class-act "Bad Pokemon", but we should keep them middling and with unexciting side effects (definitely not things that heal and allow the Pokemon to push through its counters when they can't really do anything back except phaze, like Skarmory).

    We want this Pokemon to be strong enough to merit using in OU

    Acrobatics is a very strong move. Brave Bird is too, but is very much not conducive of a BD set because it will kill CAP 6 in the midst of its sweep. Acrobatics is very strong, and with a Flying Gem, Acrobatics +6 CAP 6 can 2HKO Skarmory something like 85% of the time while maintaining a Jolly nature (big deal). CAP 6 turns around and becomes incredibly dangerous, but not totally unkillable either. Things like Scarf Rotom-W can beat it with a Water-type attack (since it has a whopping 50% HP at this point, assuming it can break Skarmory with Flying Gem), and so forth. In lieu of this, I genuinely feel like we don't want CAP 6 running around with only Drill Peck. I say Drill Peck should be required as a minimum option, but that Acrobatics should be allowed for strength. I believe the meta can respond effectively to a powerful Acrobatics killer, and really, it only makes a lot of sense on the BD set, so I think that is healthy encouragement (Without a +6 boost, CAP 6 is much better suited to LO or some damage booster to keep its damage relevant). I say this is good to Allow.

    I think Bullet Punch is a pretty weak move compared to Acrobatics, but its niche as a priority move and its typing gives it some value. It helps to encourage people to use CAP 6, and helps keep CAP 6 from being dead weight when it can't get that BD set up (this will be frequent in the counter-meta of the playtest meta). I by no means think it is overpowered, and believe it is a clear Allow. In a similar vein, every other priority move is awful by comparison with the exception of two, and thus Aqua Jet, Quick Attack, and the works should all be allowed. But, let's talk about ExtremeSpeed and Sucker Punch. Those are both stronger than even a STAB Bullet Punch, and ExtremeSpeed sits at a comfy +2 priority, making it faster than all opposing non-ES priority attacks. I think these two, given their priority and power, should be disallowed. We don't need things that strong. So, for recap: Allow Aqua Jet and all other priority moves, but disallow ExtremeSpeed and Sucker Punch.
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
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  2. wiithepeople

    wiithepeople

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    I haven't seen a few of these moves discussed yet, but in this case should we allow Icy Wind? The Speed stat of CAP6 is fairly high, so this is an advantageous move to lower the Speed of the opponent and even if the SpA of CAP6 is low. It could prove well in Doubles environments where this style of play is a little more common.

    And since we're on the topic of Heavy Slam, why not allow it? If there is an item that doubles it's weight, it could prove useful off of its respectable Atk stat.

    As for the priority moves, disallow Extremespeed and allow all other priority moves
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Here goes the continuation of my first post, where i advocated for all three of Acrobatics, Bullet Punch, and Drain Punch to be allowed... Now that we are almost finishing with the CAP, theorymoning about possible CAP sets is entirely possible so let's do that with a hypothetical set of Belly Drum / Acrobatics / Bullet Punch / Drain Punch, max Atk / max Spe+, with a Jolly nature. Let's first examine how it fares against the basic playstyles of OU:

    Against rain offense (Politoed, Starmie / Tentacruel, Keldeo (often scarfed), Thundurus-T, Steel-type, filler (usually Dragon-type or secondary Steel-type)

    The CAP can only hope to set up on the defensive Steel-type that the rain team will carry (Ferrothorn or SpD Jirachi with Thunder, and obviously not against Skarmory) while getting easily stopped by Scarf Politoed or Scarf Keldeo, both common Pokemon in rain offense. So the CAP has almost zero setup chances, can't force anything out with offensive pressure (even if Keldeo is not scarfed and you outspeed it, Acrobatics does pitiful damage if Sitrus Berry has not been consumed), and is easily revenge killed. Almost useless.

    Against sun offense (Ninetales, Venusaur, Spinner, Dugtrio, Heatran, filler)

    Can't set up on against half of the sun team, needs its less useful ability to set up on the most common spinner for sun teams (Forretress), and gets easily revenge killed by the Fire-type scarfer (Victini or Darmanitan) that some sun teams use. Only 100% setup chance is against Dugtrio, which can carry Memento to make sure that the CAP gets revenge killed by Venusaur later. The CAP can do some damage once it sets up, but setting up is really hard, and it's not like its unstoppable after setting up either.

    Against sand stall (Hippowdon, defensive Grass-type, Jellicent, Choice Band Stoutland / Choice Scarf Tyranitar / Choice Scarf Jirachi / other scarfer, defensive Steel-type with Spikes, spinner (Starmie or Forretress)

    The CAP can't set up on Hippowdon, Celebi (the most popular Grass-type of choice for such teams) with Perish Song, Jellicent, and Starmie or even Forretress if the CAP lacks Volt Absorb. It also can't setup on Skarmory if the sand team is using this, and T-Wave Ferro stops cold Intimidate versions. So only real set-up chances are vs the defensive Steel-type of the sand team and the Scarf user locked into the wrong move. Even if the CAP manages to setup, Stoutland and any Choice Scarf user other than Tyranitar can revenge kill later. Once again, the CAP doesn't have an easy time setting up and gets checked by Skarmory, and Scarfers / Stoutland.

    As you can see, the CAP hardly fares remarkably well against any of the most popular playstyles in BW2 with the best set to use with Acrobatics. People often forget that a CAP with Acro / Bullet Punch / Drain Punch as its attacking moves has almost zero offensive presence before setting up, making setting up very difficult against any Pokemon, except from those that you completely wall and don't have threatening non-attacking moves, which are very few. The only way to have offensive presence with Acrobatics before setting up is to use Flying Gem, which although a viable option, imo is an inferior reason for the CAP and here is why.

    Currently, even with Intimidate the CAP is struggling to find setup chances that can lead to a sweep. What i mean by this is, that even though the CAP can set-up on Pokemon such as SR Lando-T and Fire Blast-less Garchomp, those Pokemon have ways to prevent the CAP from sweeping even if they get walled. For example, SR Lando-T can just use U-turn as the CAP sets up and bring in a Scarf user that threatens the CAP safely, or it can just hit the CAP with Hidden Power Ice (27.8 - 32.78%), get KOed, and then let even the weakest priority hits in OU, such as unboosted ES from Dnite, finish off the CAP. Garchomp can just leave the CAP weakened enough that even the weakest of priorities will KO it after. Assuming the weakest possible variant of a Garchomp that won't be carrying Fire Blast, SD + SR or SD + Sub with dual STABs, -1 Outrage does 21.57 - 25.72% to the CAP, almost enough so that the CAP gets KOed after SR and Rough Skin. And things get even worse if Garchomp holds Rocky Helmet, a very common item on SR Chomp. And the worst is that +6 Drain Punch doesn't OHKO Garchomp (75.13 - 88.54%), meaning that the CAP must use Drain Punch twice or just OHKO with Acrobatics. In the second scenario i already described how the CAP will be left almost dead after KOing Garchomp at best (and KOed if Chomp has Rocky Helmet), while in the first scenario the CAP will be taking 68.14% damage minimum from two Outrage hits and two Rough Skin instances (21.57 (minimum damage roll of Outrage) * 2 + 12.5 * 2), in addition to SR damage and Belly Drum damage, which results in a minimum damage lost of 130.64%. And although the CAP will get back ~74% of its life by KOing a max HP Garchomp with Drain Punch, it's still left with 46% life at best and 13% if Garchomp holds Rocky Helmet, and at that point even Dragonite's unboosted ES can revenge kill Garchomp (16.18 - 19.08%).

    So in my eyes, Sitrus Berry will be vital to the CAP's success as losing 50% of your life to setup is not something you can leave unpatched most of the time. Flying Gem will be a viable item but i don't think it will surpass Sitrus Berry in usefulness, not when when the CAP can't even set-up on Pokemon it is supposed to without Sitrus Berry.

    Time to respond to some people and talk about some other moves...

    About Ground coverage. Ground coverage is worse that Drain Punch in every way. Not only does it not do anything positive that Drain Punch doesn't (OHKOes most Steel-types at +6), it also completely removes Jirachi as a check, and lets the CAP OHKO otherwise great checks to the CAP, such as Scarf Heatran and Jolteon, or weaken enough some other great checks so that the CAP can get past them later with Bullet Punch after it sets up (Scarf Jirachi), with only a little prediction. Disallow Ground coverage.

    Missing on outspeeding Keldeo, Starmie, and Infernape, all Pokemon that don't give a shit about Bullet Punch, is huge and is the reason why people will always use Jolly even with Bullet Punch in the moveset.

    Usage doesn't matter when looking for Pokemon to cover threats. Hippowdon is one of the best physical walls in OU and the sturdiest weather inducer, so if the CAP turns out to be a threat you can be sure that people will use Hippowdon if it can check the CAP. Same goes with max/max+ Lando-T, which is a perfectly viable set.

    I don't get what's the relevance of your opening sentence to the rest of the paragraph. According to you, Drain Punch is a bad option with or without Acrobatics, as it makes bulky attacking sets dangerously viable (which it doesn't). Oh and non-STAB 92 Atk Drain Punch + Lefties don't make for a sturdy pivot, especially when the opponent will be brining in Pokemon that resist Drain Punch most of the time anyway.
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  4. Birkal

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    Hey DarkSlay, let's try to wrap this conversation up at some point tomorrow.
  5. srk1214

    srk1214 That ain't Hoopa!
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    I know we're trying to hurry up, but this has hardly been an exhaustive discussion. Here's a list of the most important things that still need a decision, regardless of whether or not I would support them.

    Left in the balance still with zero discussion are: Special attacks, all other Attacking coverage types (Rock, Ice, Bug, etc etc), and moves with specific additional effects like U-turn. We never leave an attacking moves discussion without having much more in depth categorization of things like this. And while I trust DarkSlay and capefeather to do this right, I don't like the fact that the discussion will have failed to actually discuss these things.
  6. dwarfstar

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    Basically, everything alexwolf said in that last post is solid. I fully support those ideas. I don't have much time right now, so I'll just contribute an answer to one of srk's questions. I don't think allowing Ice coverage is a good idea at all. +6 Acrobatics (hell, even Drill Peck) will do a colossal amount of damage to all the notable Dragons, so we don't really need it for them. What something like Ice Punch does is push Hippowdon and Landorus-T off a cliff, which seems like a little too much. Disallow Ice moves.
  7. Pata Hikari

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    Special attacks huh.

    252+ SpA (custom) Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 138-164 (42.72 - 50.77%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 174-206 (53.86 - 63.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 174-206 (53.86 - 63.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA (custom) Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 102-120 (26.49 - 31.16%) -- possible 4HKO
    252+ SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 126-150 (32.72 - 38.96%) -- 6.69% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpA (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 126-150 (32.72 - 38.96%) -- 6.69% chance to 3HKO

    252+ SpA (custom) Surf vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 93-110 (28.44 - 33.63%) -- possible 4HKO
    252+ SpA (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 118-139 (36.08 - 42.5%) -- 95.97% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 118-139 (36.08 - 42.5%) -- 95.97% chance to 3HKO


    In the unlikely situation that you max CAP6's Special attack... this is not very good. Still, those 120 BP moves are a bit too powerful, especially Hydro Pump in rain.

    I'd say it's OK to Allow Surf and weaker Water special attacks, Disallow Hydro Pump and Focus Blast.
    Edit: Another move just occurred to me that might be interesting/troublesome on CAP6. Bounce.

    Bounce is pretty known for being the only two turn move that gets any use as Gyarados's only Flying type STAB. Of course, what makes Bounce work for Gyarados is a few things. It's just powerful enough that even a resisted hit is a going to sting, and even if you do switch in a Flying resist, that 30% paralyze chance can bite you.

    With CAP6, Bounce will have STAB, and at +6 it is going to hurt. And getting your CAP6 counter paralyzed is pretty much a death sentence.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  8. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    I mean allow bounce, sure, but no one's gonna want it. With our CAP's massive attack power, we won't be wanting for options to kill most opposing pokémon, but having our STAB be less than 100% accurate is probably not desirable.

    As for special attack options, commonly accessible attacks with <70 BP are probably all ok. Above that, surf is probably fine. I am more curious about thunderbolt.
  9. Full_Korbe

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    It's only normal for most moves to no receive discussions. Mostly, most types bring next to nothing. Basically, if it doesn't hit Steel at least neutrally reliably (read : Fighting), it won't be considered. The only other options would be Water and Electric, because no Steel besides Ferrothorn (and Empoleon I guess), but Water promotes Rain-support, and we don't want that (though we don't want CAP to be hindered too) and Electric blasts Skarmory, who should be a reliable check.

    Anyway, about U-Turn, if it's up to discussion , I'm all for Disallowing U-Turn. Why ? Intimidate. We have already a great typing backed up by wonderful switch-ins abilities, U-Turn will only promote the use of CAP as a pivot. Seriously, with U-Turn, I wouldn't even bother running Belly Drum.

    Frankly, as far as Attacking Moves go, I'm fine with only our STABs and Fighting coverage.
    About these :
    I'm for Allowing Bullet Punch and Quick Attack, and Disallowing Aqua-Jet, Mach Punch and ExtremeSpeed.
    Bullet Punch and Quick Attack covers our needs when it comes to deal with Scarfers. The only ones not hit by Bullet Punch are Keldeo and Jolteon, who can be dealt with Quick Attack (with lots of previous damages). Aqua Jet only promotes Rain, Extreme Speed is, well, an extreme option and the only reliable scarfer able to KO CAP would become Terrakion. Finally, Mach Punch overlaps with our need for a reliable Fighting moves and brings nothing interesting (except, I guess, being able to deal with both of Keldeo and Terrakion).

    I support Allowing Drain Punch. We have never seen a good BDrumer able to hit AND regenerates its health. Well, we have never seen a good BDrumer but still. My great worries about it is Skarmory (because it becomes quite useless) but we can always get away by giving CAP a good option over Drain Punch (like, say Substitute or Taunt, but that's polljumping.) Moreover, it does what Regenerator could do, without the downsides (read : pivot)

    Finally, I'd say disallow all non-STAB special moves above 100 BP. Fire Blast scares me too, even if it's minor.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  10. Redwolf

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    The steel typing which CAP6 happens to have is pretty significant for two reasons: adding a plethora of resistances, and immunity to sandstorm. The latter is the main reason why I am completely for allowing sky drop. My reasoning behind this is that it supports not only the belly drum set but less used sets as well. When sky drop is used there is a turn for the opponent in which they are completely immobile. This includes to sandstorm damage, burn damage, toxic damage, ect. That is what gives it the edge over ariel ace. Sky drop allows not only for a good 60 power flying move, but also as coverage for if a pokemon switches in that it needs to stall out. (Not to mention, it lines up perfectly with flavor and the under used moves theme.) Overall, I feel sky drop would be a great addition to the movepool.
  11. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    I also would like to agree with what has pretty much been stated already for priority attacks:
    Bullet Punch - required
    Quick Attack - allowed
    Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Extremespeed - Disallowed

    Sucker Punch, Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, Vacuum Wave - Need more discussion.

    I feel that shadow sneak and vacuum wave are almost certainly all right, and ice shard is PROBABLY ok, but suckered punch needs some vetting first.

    As for Special Attacks, I feel like Hydro Pump, Thunder, Earth Power, Blizzard, Focus Blast, Surf, Scald and Fire Blast are no goes, and should be Disallowed, but that still leaves a lot up for discussion. Being STABS, I say Allow Flash Cannon, Hurricane and any weaker STAB special attack. But beyond that, I don't know, if anyone is thinking of a surprise special attack for their moveset we should probably vet it right now, though I am, in general, against special fire coverage.
  12. Karoshi

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    With a base special attack 5 lower then that of Pidgeot, a Pokemon hard pressed to take down NU Pokemon with it's special STAB, CaP6 shouldn't use special attacks in any situation. Discussion on this will only take away from the concept of this Pokemon.
    Disallow Non-Stab Special Attacks including Vacuum Wave

    For all the same reasons as Extreme Speed, the high attack power in conjunction with the priority and attack boost, I say Disallow Sucker Punch. The weakness of only being able to deal damage via a damaging move is mitigated by the fact that it destroys most Pokemon in a single shot not resistant to it as well as being capable of being super effective which Extreme Speed lacks.

    Shadow Sneak won't see much play pass coverage with drain punch. Even then it doesn't deal nearly as much damage as STAB Bullet Punch. I see no reason why it shouldn't be Allowed

    With Acrobatic Flying Gem, Leaf Blade only does more damage to Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Quagsire while doing more to Hippowdon, Suicune, Donphan, Slowbro, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Politoed, Cloyster, Mamoswine, Terrakion, and Starmie without it. While an impressive list CaP6 already takes out almost all of these Pokemon with Acrobatics in one shot, though some of them only on a chance. While we have to be cautious as it would remove Quagsire from the counter list, I say Allow due to it's limited versatility.
  13. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    My reservations about Flying Gem claims are similar to my reservations about claims in the secondary ability discussion. The fact that Intimidate is one of CAP 6's abilities means that its ability will be given away as soon as it switches in. Similarly, the fact that Sitrus Berry is a viable option for CAP 6 means that its item will basically be given away as soon as it uses Belly Drum. That's still one turn less for an enemy Skarmory to realize that it might get plowed over by Flying Gem Acrobatics, but IMO it's still enough time for it to make the best decision to mitigate the threat, which ultimately exists for only one turn. I kind of think that maybe the whole "ignoring our counters" accusation might be a tad overblown when it comes to Acrobatics in particular.

    I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate for me to talk about Acrobatics, considering I voted with it in mind from the beginning and that might have biased me in favour of it. However, Acrobatics is just so pro-concept, and the next best move such a drop in power, that I think we need to be really careful not just in including it, but also in not including it. My previous post on the matter still stands: without Acrobatics, I see CAP 6 getting more coverage and relying on that to stay viable. I'm just not sure that that route can keep us on the concept as well as Acrobatics can.
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  14. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Even dedicated physical attackers in the pokémon world tend to have access to a slew of special attacks that they'll never likely use. Disallowing them simply because they are non-ideal isn't really good logic. Sure, our CAP may never want to actually want to use said attacks, but that doesn't mean he should be banned from accessing them.

    Terrible flavor aside, Fire Blast potentially deals more damage to, and has to potential to burn one of our counters, Skarmory, making it actually a powerful coverage move, despite our CAP's lack of profieciency with special attacks. It makes sense to ban that. But something like Ice Beam or BubbleBeam/Water Pulse won't actually prove to be especially problematic so, while they aren't great moves, one simply doesn't have to use them or include them in their moveset. Our goal wit this cap is to limit his coverage moves and utility outside of belly drum anyway, so he's GOING to have some useless moves.



    And for those of us who feel that the health restore on Drain Punch does just a bit too much to ameliorate the downsides of being a belly drummer. May I submit Sky Uppercut for discussion as a coverage attack? It gains a little power, at the expense of accuracy and a heal, making it a fine last-resort coverage attack. Additionally, there IS precedence for non-fighting types learning the attack as long as they are part flying, so, thematically, it works as well.
  15. jas61292

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    I've already given my piece on this move, so I'm not going to restate what I already said. What I do want to do is challenge this statement. Pro-concept? What does that even mean? That it is more powerful? That it helps kill things better? Its not exactly a move we have not seen before. We know exactly how it works, so it doesn't fit the concept directly as a move in that sense. I really can't see anything about this move that is "pro-concept" that can't be said to apply to every single good move in the game. There is nothing pro-concept about it, and we shouldn't be just handing out the better move because it's powerful, has STAB, and "why not?" Having checks and counters is important, and Acrobatics eliminates them all. Every single one. If that is anything concept related, that is anti-concept, since no concept was ever successfully achieved by having no counters.
  16. DarkSlay

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    My OP has been updated to reflect the discussions so far. Apologies for the delay, I had a very pressing IRL event to complete (LSAT testing) and was away for most of the weekend.

    A few notable things:
    • Brick Break has been Allowed, but Drain Punch has been put in the Controversial section.
    • Acrobatics is now Controversial.
    • Dark, Ghost, and Bug physical moves have been Allowed. The exception is U-Turn, which Needs Discussion.
    • Fire coverage, Electric coverage, ExtremeSpeed and Sucker Punch have been Disallowed.
    • New things have been added to the Needs Discussion section, as well as some previously discussed priority moves.
    The discussion has been very good so far, but on a good number of moves we really need to focus on a few things. What are our coverage moves hitting? Why do we need them? Why should they not be allowed in regards to the concept or in regards to specific checks? The checks/counters discussion is there for a reason: we have a predefined set of Pokemon that we intended to beat or hinder CAP6 in certain situations. That's something the community agreed upon. That's important to remember. We must follow that standard when talking about moves.

    Acrobatics and Drain Punch have been moved to the controversial section to be voted on later. There have been glaring negatives and important positives brought up by two apparent sides of the argument for both moves, which means a vote will most likely be in order. Everything else seems to be either answerable without a poll or pretty self-explanatory.

    I will now be checking the thread daily and will be making updates as I see fit (now that I have my time back). Feel free to discuss any move that needs discussion or has not been brought up yet and you deem important to discuss. Happy posting!

    EDIT: Brick Break has been moved from Allowed to Needs Discussion. The decision to place it in Allowed originally stemmed from opinions on IRC, but ginganinja brings up a viable point in that it wasn't heavily discussed in the thread. Arguments supporting Brick Break revolve around maintaining Skarmory as a check (when compared to Drain Punch). Feel free to discuss this move further.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  17. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    I would honestly prefer that we place Drain Punch in some sort of limbo until we see how the CAP performs without it. The problem with drain punch is that, if the CAP can perform adequately without it, then, in giving it to him,we allow the CAP to circumvent its HP cutting weakness while not even sacrificing a moveslot to do so because it's attached to a solid coverage move.

    I agree completely that Drain Punch is the perfect move for our CAP. But the issue is, things can be too perfect and result in being overpowered. Without seeing whether or not our CAP actually needs something so perfectly fitting before we give it to him, we risk giving Blaziken speed boost
  18. blitzlefan

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    I think U-turn should be Disallowed, because well it's simply really anti-concept in my opinion. CAP already has the typing and ability to function as a pivot, and giving it U-turn just pushes it away from Belly Drum as the best set. If the CAP manages to set up, then U-turn will waste 50% of its HP and its boost, making it almost impossible to set up again. Furthermore, U-turn will do pitiful damage, and takes up a moveslot for something that doesn't help CAP in the way we want it too.

    I'm running out of time, but I'll edit this post later (hopefully) as to why I support Drain Punch and Acrobatics, though I do see the possible drawbacks of the two moves.
  19. ginganinja

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    O.k, I don't want to offend, because these quotes don't match. On the one hand, we have Brick Break, a move that has received mixed reception (some people for it, some against it), moving to the allowed section, despite it hitting several pokemon on our checks / counters discussion which you just said is something important to bear in mind when selecting moves. Like, isn't that a double standard?

    I acknowledge that yes, if Drain Punch gets through, its clearly the better move than Brick Break, but the trouble is some of the arguments against Drain Punch apply to Brick Break ie, that its giving this CAP fighting type coverage. Can we at least move Brick Break into the "needs discussion" list or something because I honestly feel like Brick Break moving to allowed came right out of left field.
  20. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

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    Looking at the remaining TBD list, I think Aqua Jet and Mach Punch are the main viable moves that I am in favour of.

    The main arguments I've seen against Aqua Jet are that it encourages CAP to be used in rain and also that it "massacres our would-be checks". These don't wash with me. CAP already has the ability to remove one of its two weaknesses with Volt Absorb. It's crazy to think that people won't want to remove its other weakness with rain. Even without any Water moves, CAP arguably prefers rain to any other weather as it leaves it with a sole Electric weakness. Even if one chooses not to patch this with Volt Absorb, removing the Fire weakness is a huge help to CAP as it allows for much easier set-up against pokes such as Latios carrying Hidden Power Fire. In short, CAP will definitely be used in the rain. There's no reason not to encourage CAP in the rain.

    As for Aqua Jet being overpowered in the rain, here are some calcs vs CAP's would-be checks that show that it is perfectly manageable:

    +6 252 Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in rain: 118-139 (36.08 - 42.5%) -- 95.97% chance to 3HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Jirachi in rain: 186-219 (46.03 - 54.2%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in rain: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn in rain: 71-84 (20.17 - 23.86%) -- possible 6HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W in rain: 98-115 (32.77 - 38.46%) -- 5.1% chance to 3HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in rain: 113-133 (34.87 - 41.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom in rain: 124-147 (47.32 - 56.1%) -- 82.42% chance to 2HKO
    +6 252 Atk (custom) Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in rain: 124-147 (41.19 - 48.83%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    These pokemon can all still threaten CAP in rain if it's carrying Aqua Jet. Skarmory in particular is still a full stop, and Rotom-W takes Aqua Jet just as easily as Bullet Punch. Ferrothorn too. Jirachi still checks Intimidate CAP with Electric moves or Body Slam. Scarf Keldeo still checks it too. Latios and Breloom would much prefer CAP to run Aqua Jet over Bullet Punch.

    The only checks that Aqua Jet allows us to get past in the rain are ScarfTran, Jolteon, Scarf Infernape and Scarf Thundurus. Two of those are very dangerous for rain teams anyhow. Allow Aqua Jet.

    Mach Punch for Allowed as it is largely weaker than Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet, but could be useful to deal with Steel-resistant pokes or if your team already has a strong Bullet Puncher.

    I also would like for U-Turn to be Not Allowed as it would make CAP much better at fulfilling the bulky pivot role that we are worried it could fit instead of Belly Drummer. U-Turn is completely incompatible with a Belly Drum set - one move requires you to stay in and go all in, the other requires you to switch and hedge your bets. Trying to fit both moves on one set, scouting with U-Turn early-game and BD sweeping late game would be sub-par as CAP needs the remaining 3 move slots for attacks that help it sweep, or maybe 2 attacks and one move that directly helps set-up, like Substitute.

    jas61292 Acrobatics is pro-concept more than other attacking moves as it encourages the use of one-off items such as Sitrus Berry which supports the one-off nature of a Belly Drum sweep.

    Regarding special attacks, I agree with Sonic the Hedgedawg:

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2013
  21. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Quoting that because it's the most important reason why U-turn should be disallowed. U-turn does nothing to complement Belly Drum, and does nothing for the Pokemon besides opening up further build options that serve as a detriment to the BD set.

    All of the non-disallowed priority moves are weak, and while offering some coverage and priority, 92 base Attack un-STAB 40BAP moves don't even threaten to 2HKO the primary list of checks and counters at +6. The only possible issue with that is rain-boosted Aqua Jet, but really even that is covered by most Pokemon just fine and doesn't punch through Skarmory. The only real things it beats are Electric-types who rely on CAP6 not using Volt Absorb anyway and Scarf Heatran. While I don't think it makes particular sense to give it to CAP6 from a competitive perspective (because it is largely irrelevant coverage for it outside of against Electric-type Pokemon because even neutral Drill Peck is more powerful than super effective Aqua Jet outside of rain, and even resisted Acrobatics hurts more than unboosted super effective Aqua Jet), I can see no reason to disallow any of the other priority moves. Allow all 40BAP priority moves. There are so many Pokemon on our checks and counters list that by forcing us to lose to all of them, we will neuter CAP6 in OU entirely.

    I think if we go with Acrobatics, we'll want Fighting-type coverage to actually achieve what we want to achieve and successfully sweep weakened teams without breaking them down from the top-down. Brick Break is at a perfect BAP for that sort of coverage without going overboard, and I think would round out the set with just enough coverage to do its job and not too much to go overboard. I also think that, should we allow Mach Punch, it would make for a good player decision to make. "Do I want priority Fighting to beat Scarf Heatran, or a more powerful Fighting-type move to hurt weakened Skarmory/Jirachi?" This set (Acro/BP/MP or BB/BD) is, to me, the ideal setup for a BD CAP6. If we forgo Acrobatics, we'll need a lot more coverage than just Fighting to really justify CAP6 as an actual contributing member to an OU team, and without Acrobatics trying to use CAP6 for a sweep may be more risk than it's worth when instead we could just carry something else that sweeps better in similar conditions.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
    Nebuchadnezzar likes this.
  22. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    I'm beginning to think that we're losing sight of the context under which we're discussing all this. We keep going back to the same types of discussions that we've seen in past projects, especially CAP 2 and CAP 4. Obviously, in CAP 2, it made a lot of sense to tread very lightly around the four designated checks, and of course, CAP 4 would have benefited greatly from a better specification of designated checks. While discussion of checks is still very important in CAP 6, we should remember that there were suggestions in the second concept assessment as to how to frame our discussions around Belly Drum. I grant that the ideas in Doug's post have been vaguely thrown around already, but here it is explicitly, just so people are on the same page.

    People may recall that I wasn't sold on Belly Drum at first, and even after I selected Belly Drum as the main focus, I had my reservations. So I really appreciated this angle because it showed that Belly Drum had the potential to veer us away from the same murky, speculative arguments about how good the final product would be with such-and-such attributes. Yet here we are, having virtually the same movepool discussion we've had for the past two CAP projects, using virtually the same arguments, despite all of our knowledge that those same arguments are even murkier and more speculative than they were in the past. It gets kind of boring after a while, especially when people try to justify their positions using the grand total of 5 data points that we've had for "does this position result in good CAP Pokemon" for this generation. Some of these arguments, especially the ones involving Flying Gem and/or Adamant nature, are kind of comparable to claims in BW1 that Terrakion is broken because +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge OHKOes Gliscor, or claims in BW2 that Black Kyurem is broken because of its 170 base Attack Outrage, or the generic claims that X is broken because nothing can switch in 100% safely. Belly Drum, the very move we're focusing CAP 6 around, shows quite clearly that there's more to Pokemon than the ability to kill things.

    I'm not even saying that Acrobatics is needed. Its power is very high, as DetroitLolcat's post shows, so we should be very careful about it. However, I suspect that people may be assuming that CAP 6 somehow will be viable and it will use Belly Drum - that we've already done enough to ensure this. I'm not sure that that is the case, and that's why, to me, Acrobatics isn't just about "moar power". It's true that IF CAP 6 will probably use Belly Drum, then it will probably use gems and berries. It doesn't follow that it will probably use gems and berries, unless CAP 6 probably uses Belly Drum. Acrobatics would be evidence for the soundness of the contrapositive: if CAP 6 probably won't use gems or berries, then it probably won't use Belly Drum. If CAP 6 doesn't use Belly Drum, then it risks becoming just another crappy attacker that happens to have Belly Drum.

    This idea of trying to make Belly Drum the best set may be a pretty good guiding force for the other moves being discussed. Does U-turn risk turning CAP 6 into a bizarro Landorus Therian? What are the consequences if certain priority moves make an Adamant nature more viable, or Flying Gem less risky in comparison to Sitrus Berry? I don't mean to say that such discussions should supercede concerns about the threat list (which I'll post below in a slightly more compact manner, for posterity), just that I really think these discussions need to happen in addition to all the threat list talk.

    Pokemon that CAP 6 threatens

    Ground-types (e.g. Landorus Therian, Hippowdon?, Donphan?, Choiced Garchomp locked into Earthquake)
    Scizor locked into Bullet Punch
    Defensive Pokemon (e.g. Ferrothorn, Blissey, Celebi)

    Pokemon that threaten CAP 6

    Bulky Steel-types (e.g. Skarmory, Heatran, Jirachi, Magnezone)
    Fast revenge killers (e.g. some 70+ Scarfers, Chlorophyll / Swift Swim Pokemon)
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  23. jas61292

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    This is all well and good, but honestly, I don't see it as relevant. Yes, there is plenty more to Pokemon than the ability to kill things. But that is frankly just a generic statement that doesn't really apply to anything more here than it does anywhere else. I'm not actually sure if you are trying to make a pro-acrobatics point with this, but I believe that, if you are, the argument fails at a basic level. If you can use this fact to support the more powerful of two options, than you can use this argument to support anything and everything. After all, if power isn't everything, then there is no reason not to pile it on. Yes, its true that all the Pokemon you listed have a kind of power that allowed them to clear past their counters, but all of them still have big flaws. Power upon power didn't break them because they had a mediocre speed or a bad type or a priority weakness. And even then the power they possess can only beat counters very situationally. That is not the case with CAP6 and acrobatics. CAP 6 has a fantastic speed, a great defensive typing that lacks priority weakness, and, with Acrobatics, the ability to break its counters more than just situationally. Most of the flat out cannot switch in, at all, ever. They go from counters to "revenge" killers, except unlike revenge killers they have to take a hit and lose over half their health first. We don't have those weaknesses that keep power upon power in check. Yes, we have to use belly Drum, but I think people forget one key fact: when everything is dying before they can attack you, there is no difference between having 400 HP and 4.

    This is another notion right here that I wish to challenge. People have been talking like Berries and Gems are the only items that would possibly be use using, and I think this is absolutely a ludicrous notion. Defensively, Sitrus Berry seems nice, but what about Leftovers? Sure, if you intend to never have CAP6 set foot into the battle until it is going to set up BD and try and sweep then Sitrus Berry is going to be superior. But that is not how battles often go. CAP6 has a fantastic defensive typing, physical bulk, and intimidate. It is incredibly reasonable to assume that players would want to bring it in once or twice before the opponent is softened up enough to sweep in order to block an attacker or something. It will take some light hits, but, if it is holding Leftovers, it will not suffer nearly as much and will be more prepared to set up later on in the battle. That's not to say it is the superior item, but it is far from useless. On the other hand, if you choose to go for an offensive item, Flying Gem is cool, but again, not the only option. A Sharp Beak, for instance, give a 80%+ chance of OHKOing standard Ferrothorn with Drill Peck, without even having SR up. Sure, Flying gem does this too, but you use that and it is gone. Against a team with multiple bulky Pokemon, a more reliable damage boosting item could be more useful.

    Either way though, that whole contrapositive stuff seems like nonsense to me. Not consumable items -> non using Belly Drum? There is absolutely no sense in which that logically follows. The two are completely unrelated, and even if there is a correlation, to imply that this would be a causation just seems ridiculous. The only thing those items have a direct relationship with is Acrobatics, and that move is completely unnecessary when it comes to making Belly Drum viable.

    As you show right here, this is our ist. But the fact is, if we have Acrobatics, you can pretty much eliminate the entire first entry.

    ---

    Now, on a different note, I'd like to comment on some of the other moves that need discussion. Of the specific coverage types, Ground is the only one I have a real problem with due to its ability to hit Heatran, Jirachi and other Steels super effectively. As I said above, those pokemon are our checks, and we really should not be trying to eliminate them.

    Beyond that though, the other coverage types are perfectly fine. Grass doesn't help much other than to beat Rotom-W and the odd Quagsire, but is hardly worth a moveslot on a set. Rock hits just about nothing we don't already beat. Maybe a Zapdos or something, but again, its not something we should be concerned with. If someone wants to waste a moveslot on it, I see no reason to say no. And Ice is pretty much in the same boat. Anything it beats we either already beat with STABs, or is rare enough such that it is not worth a moveslot. No reason to disallow any of these.

    Water is the one possible controversial one, thanks to rain, but I personally don't have that much of a problem with it. It might be best to avoid, due to to it having situational power near that of ground moves, but I am not as overly concerned with it. I'd lean towards disallowing, but I don't have incredibly strong feelings either way.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  24. srk1214

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    Right, so since I was the first one to mention U-turn, quickly, here's my thought process:

    As cape put it, "Does U-turn risk turning CAP 6 into a bizarro Landorus Therian?" And my answer is: no. Here's why. CAP 6 will not be getting Roost, Rapid Spin, or Hazards as far as I can tell. So, what sort of set would this bulky pivot be running? U-turn, Drill Peck, Iron Head/(Heavy Slam?), anddddd Brick Break? Really it just doesn't have the moves to take on the bulky pivot role that Landorus-T does. Landorus-T has 326 Attack, uninvested, CAP 6 has 220. That is no comparison. Moreover, CAP 6 lacks good solid STAB like Earthquake and even has pitiful Sp. Atk compared to Landorus-T's base 105, which enables it to run HP Ice for Dragons and Gliscor etc.

    Essentially, if you're using CAP 6 as a bulky pivot, you really should just give up and sub it out for Landorus-T. Yes, CAP 6 is faster, but really, that's not going to matter too much when you can't heal, spin, or lay hazards... like... what the hell are you going to do with that extra speed? Do pitiful damage to everything in OU because you only have base 92 attack and weak STAB and coverage?

    The only set that perhaps becomes viable with U-turn is a Choice set, and even then, it's not a good choice user since it has weak STAB attacks and not nearly enough base Atk to start with.

    Basically the question to decide at this point what to do with moves that clearly don't work with Belly Drum (obviously U-turn is one of those). Do we want to enable other sets to exist, provided we can be sure they are inferior to the Belly Drum set? I think we should.

    Strangely enough, the existence of Band CAP 6 will help Belly Drum CAP 6 and vice versa. As has been pointed out, CAP 6's presence SCREAMS Belly Drum. This makes it rather hard to set up. But! What if you come out to revenge your opponents Sp Def Celebi at near full health. It sees that you're at full HP still (and that you have Intimidate), so Sitrus Acrobatics isn't going to be doing anything (252 Atk CAP 6 Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 144-170 (35.64 - 42.07%). Drill Peck too, only does 61% max, so it feels safe either way that it can get off a T-Wave, only really fearing the rarer Sub or maybe Taunt sets or maybe Flying Gem Acrobatics. It's at least worth the shot. Therefore, it decides to stay in and use Thunder Wave instead of switching out! But boom, surprise, you're actually CB CAP 6 with U-turn. 252 Atk Choice Band CAP 6 U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 360-428 (89.1 - 105.94%)

    The beauty of this is that if the Celebi user also has a Skarmory that it was switching into on the predicted Belly Drum and not wanting to risk seeing Flying Gem kill Celebi, you can U-turn out and trap it with your Magnezone. Or maybe he was switching out to a Scarf Rotom-W, into which you now can bring in your Scarf Latios or your own Celebi.

    Obviously this is theorymon, but I think there is value in allowing other sets to be somewhat viable as it will increase doubts in your opponent's mind if you really are going to Belly Drum or not. If every CAP 6 is Belly Drum and your opponent always knows this and can prepare for it while teambuilding, you are going to have a tough time. Increased set versatility, as long as they don't outshine the Belly Drum set, is a good thing.

    The question isn't if U-turn goes against Belly Drum. Obviously it does, though I'd argue it helps Belly Drum nonetheless. The question is whether it goes too far and distracts from the main set too much.
  25. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    srk1214:

    CAP 6's presence (allegedly) screams Belly Drum, not because of anything we've done with it, but because that is the concept that we're attempting to fulfill. Just because we claim it's about Belly Drum, doesn't mean it will turn out that way. As it is, Belly Drum has a horrible track record. Sure, since CAP 6 is faster than any existing Belly Drum user, and probably has a better defensive typing than any existing Belly Drum user, maybe that will change, but I'm not going to bet everything on that happening. That's why I'm very skeptical of the simplistic theorymon arguments coming from all viewpoints of this discussion. I'm especially skeptical of trying to make a conventional set work alongside Belly Drum. If we do this, I see two things happening:

    1. The conventional set easily usurps Belly Drum.
    2. The conventional set is terrible.

    So I don't find this a very compelling argument for allowing U-turn.

    jas61292:

    Your reply to me seems to boil down to:

    1. "I think people forget one key fact: when everything is dying before they can attack you, there is no difference between having 400 HP and 4."
    2. "People have been talking like Berries and Gems are the only items that would possibly be used, and I think this is absolutely a ludicrous notion." [examples: Leftovers and Sharp Beak]

    I'm doing this because you've split my previous post in such a way that the parts seem to stand alone, when really, one segues into the other. Of course the fact that there's more to Pokemon than killing things is a generic statement. I still felt that it needed to be said due to my impression that people are overly focusing solely on the killing power of a Belly Drummer. I'm criticizing absolute statements here, not making them.

    I don't think anybody's forgetting that CAP 6 with Acrobatics would have tremendous sweeping capability after the boost, regardless of how much HP it has left. It's the other side of the coin that's been driving the entire concept to begin with. We've done a lot to help CAP 6 get the boost in the first place, but especially in ability discussions, there was an agreement that we can't (and shouldn't try to) do everything. Maybe what we've done is enough to justify excluding Acrobatics based on its killing power, but that is not obvious to me.

    This is where my reply to srk comes in. People are talking about Berries and Gems, not because they're necessarily the only items that a Belly Drummer would use, but because they're not items that most conventional sets would use. Maybe a set with Leftovers and Drill Peck will go for the Belly Drum... or maybe it will opt for a different, less risky set. Maybe that set will be a different unconventional set revolving around a different move - something that has been an option this whole time, for sure - but again, accommodating for conventional sets and conventional items may very well backfire on us and cause CAP 6 to prefer a bad conventional set over what may turn out to be a bad unconventional set.

    I just think that a move like Acrobatics deserves a better refutation than a implication that its supporters and sympathizers are only in it for the extra power.
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