CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 11 - Supporting Moves Discussion

[darkie]

This is our Pokémon:

Name: Decentralizer
Description: A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

Type: Water / Fight
Ability: Unaware
Stats: 105 HP / 110 Atk / 95 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 75 Spe

For the record, the current top 10 on the CAP server are:

1. Stratagem
2. Revenankh
3. Fidgit
4. Tyranitar
5. Zapdos
6. Syclant
7. Blissey
8. Heatran
9. Scizor
10. Pyroak

An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals significant damage to an opponent. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves". As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt, is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and Are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given pokemon.

All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.

• Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one pokemon and non-competitive for another.
• Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of commonly Required moves can be found in X-Act's movepool guide.

Move Discussion Posting Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
  
  
• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
  
  
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
  
  
• The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
  
  
• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
  
  
• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
  
  
• All moves that are considered Competitive for this pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are miscategorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
  
  
• If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

The attacking moves that are allowed and unallowed are here.

 

[darkie]

Allowed:
-Iron Defense
-Yawn
-Toxic
-Roar
-Stockpile
-Amnesia
-Barrier
-Meditate / Howl
-Aqua Ring
-Haze
-Counter
-Swagger
-Flatter
-Swallow
-Charm / Featherdance
-Scary Face
-Mud Sport
-Rapid Spin
-Glare
-Gastro Acid
-Me First
-Block / Mean Look
-Refresh
-Foresight
-Mudslap
-Mist
-Role Play
-Torment
-Magic Coat
-Mirror Move
-Bulk Up
-Curse
-Recover / Slack Off / Milk Drink / Softboiled / Heal Order-Encore
-Agility
-Psych Up
-Taunt
-Mirror Coat
-Thunder Wave

Controversial:





Pending:


Unallowed:
-Swords Dance
-Nasty Plot
-Baton Pass
-Rock Polish
-Roost
-Synthesis
-Growth
-Disable
-Hypnosis

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Wasn't U-Turn placed in the Not Allowed list? Speaking of not allow I say move Sword Dance and Nasty Plot into that area as well.

BTW, what was the score on the attack move poll?

 

[CrazyFrog]

I think we should give him thunderwave and definately bulk up. No swords dance or nasty plot, giving him these may push it to being broken in my opinion. Not sure if we should give him a recovery move or not.......

 

[discoboy]

I say bulk up/ curse if he does not already have overpowered attacking moves.
Thunderwave is good for CAP6 imo, because it would allow him to threaten more of the top 10 most used with paralysis.
I am mostly against attack boosts, but baton pass + iron defense/amnesia good be added for a secondary set.

 

[tennisace]

Bulk Up to controversial, SD and NP not allowed, Thunder Wave to controversial. Thunder Wave makes no sense on a Water-type, and I don't like the idea of it on a decentralizer, since everything is faster and there is only one Pokemon immune to it in the top 10 (Fidgit, Bliss doesn't care but lets not split hairs). SD and NP would be way too powerful and centralizing on this, since it's already bulkier than Swampert. I feel the same way about Curse and Bulk Up, I don't give a crap if "every Fighting-type gets it", we're not Nintendo. Actually, I don't want any Stat-Up move, can we move them all to controversial? I'll add reasoning if I need to.

Milk Drink, Softboiled and Heal Order to Unallowed, they make no sense. However I feel that Slack Off is fine here, even Recover depending on the art since they're the same move.

 

[gorm]

yeah i don't get the twave crowd. this isn't the "give him every useful support move" phase c__c. hypnosis is equally irrelevant/too powerful

i'm supporting meditate for allowed, unsure on curse and against bulk up, sd and nasty plot. our intentions for this project were that this would be a regulator pokemon so im not in favor of blazing sweeps.

slack off could be considered i guess since it has low pp. heal order/milkd rink should be disallowed as well as recover if we give him slack off.

amnesia/barrier/iron defense are not moves i will veto outright as they are largely useless. combined with baton pass I'd definitely be against. baton pass+meditate/curse only would be ok, so would meditate/cure+ ID/barrier/amensia. none of these move combos are especially gamebreaking in the context of a tank like this.


encore seems interesting, i guess that could be design dependant. I'm certainly not against it for messing up setups in general even more.

 

[Cartoons!]

Some artworks, like Cyzir's anemone, seem to go hand in hand with Recover. All the same, I'm against recovery moves. This thing shouldn't be able to stay alive long enough to tank its way through entire teams.

Also against stat up moves that beef up the offenses, though defensive stat up moves (iron defense, acid armor) should be fine.

I'm going to throw some support behind Encore, mostly so the mon can come in on Rev's Bulk Up and force it out, rather than lose a stall war. Flavor-wise, it could fit many of the multi-handed entries..or some of the more entertainment oriented ones??

 

[tennisace]

amnesia/barrier/iron defense are not moves i will veto outright as they are largely useless. combined with baton pass I'd definitely be against. baton pass+meditate/curse only would be ok, so would meditate/cure+ ID/barrier/amensia. none of these move combos are especially gamebreaking in the context of a tank like this.

Why don't we just move Baton Pass to not allowed then? It definitely isn't the point of a decentralizer to status or stat-up and pass.

 

[nihilist]

are knock off, fake out, calm mind, rapid spin, roar/whirlwind (if bird or not), yawn or steath rock up for consideration at all?

EDIT: agreeing with no sword dance or nasty plot

 

[tennisace]

are knock off, fake out, calm mind, rapid spin, roar/whirlwind (if bird or not), yawn or steath rock up for consideration at all?

EDIT: agreeing with no sword dance or nasty plot

All the moves you listed are up for consideration, however I disagree with allowing all of them besides maybe Knock Off. Roar is pointless since it has Unaware, I don't agree with any offensive stat-up move since this isn't supposed to be a sweeper, and the same with status moves, it's supposed to be a decentralizer not a statuser.

 

[Goodbar]

slack off could be considered i guess since it has low pp.

It's actually the same pp as recover. Either should be included, this isn't looking like a tank nor a sweeper and something that's supposed to check/counter other things should probably have some longevity. Both should be in controversial at least. Also like others have said bulk up/curse/etc. really don't help this pokemon in terms of the concept, and I don't think its that terrible to break this current trend, it's not like removing flamethrower from a fire pokemon. On the other hand I'd support toxic and yawn, both seem reasonable and helpful. Hypnosis I'm not sure of and would suggest it go to controversial.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I throw my support towards moving Toxic and Yawn to Allowed. Like what Goodbar said, they're both helpful and reasonable towards CAP6's goal. All recovery move except Moonlight/Morning Sun have about the same PP so really...what's the big deal about Heal Order and/or Milk Drink? Since they all do about the same thing, name shouldn't really matter now as it's the effect we want.

Thunder Wave makes no sense on a Water-type

So what about Starmie, Slowbro, Kyorge, Bibarel, Octillery, Qwilfish, and Gyarados? They can learn Thunder Wave and they're either part water or pure water type?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I can see the reason to not give it Thunder Wave and Hypnosis, but what's the reason to not give it Toxic? Almost every pokémon get it (yeah I know no Rest on Regigigas yadda yadda), and it's such a widespread move that I don't see how exactly it would have that much of an impact.

And if people (like Cartoons) have problems with Recover, then would Pain Split be a good option?

 

[Solstice]

I think Thunder Wave should go to controversial, it makes no sense on a water-fighting type. I think we should put Block/Mean Look into allowed/controversial, and also maybe Refresh.

 

[tennisace]

So what about Starmie, Slowbro, Kyorge, Bibarel, Octillery, Qwilfish, and Gyarados? They can learn Thunder Wave and they're either part water or pure water type?

Don't get pedantic, it really makes no sense on a Water/Fighting type who's goal is to beat top threats outright, not cripple them. Thunder Wave allows it to beat most of it's checks by crippling them and outstalling them.

 

[Infiltrator]

I think toxic should be moved to allowed and there should be no Sword dance and no Nasty Plot. And Bulk up to allowed.

 

[tennisace]

And Bulk up to allowed.

Can you explain why Bulk Up should be allowed when there's vehement opposition to it?

 

[pit-fall]

I'm all for Slack Off/Recover and Bulk Up/Curse, but not both.

In other words, if it gets Recover, it shouldn't also get Bulk Up for fear of brokenness.

 

[nihilist]

All the moves you listed are up for consideration, however I disagree with allowing all of them besides maybe Knock Off. Roar is pointless since it has Unaware, I don't agree with any offensive stat-up move since this isn't supposed to be a sweeper, and the same with status moves, it's supposed to be a decentralizer not a statuser.

i see where you are going with this, but lets say that theres a threat that stats up but CAP 6 can't defeat. Roar still has some use.

I understand that CAP 6's job is to decentralize, but are these pokes meant to have one purpose only?

For instance, when the top 10 changes, which it undoubtedly will, then will CAP 6 be considered less useful.
CAP 6 should still have support moves to allow it to always be useful.
So I support yawn, toxic, and rapid spin to allow it to always be a viable poke.


Also, I'm agreeing with not having offensive stat up moves. If it gets recover, then it would be too good.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

I'm for Slack Off, and against Bulk Up and Curse.

This thing shouldn't get any stat-raising moves at all, regardless of move canon.

 

[Goodbar]

Roar is not totally pointless since unaware does not remove the stat boosts, just ignores them. It also helps with teams who want to shuffle pokemon and hurt with field damage. I'd say it's useful enough to consider

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

....who's goal is to beat top threats outright, not cripple them. Thunder Wave allows it to beat most of it's checks by crippling them and outstalling them.

This should be the main reason why it shouldn't get Thunder Wave, not some flavor infected argument when they're precedent that it exist and/or happens within the game. Who cares if it doesn't make sense on something as flavor shouldn't be the main factor when deciding on what move to give it. If a move makes a CAP overpowering then we ban it, if it doesn't make it overpowering and/or help the project's cause then we add it and accept it. Personally I say we move Thunder Wave to the Controversial list or outright ban it.

 

[Hyra]

I'm against all offensive stat boosting moves because they serve no purpose what so ever. I also don't see any reason for Toxic to be controversial, its not like every other Bulky Water can't use it if they feel like it.

 

[Kamen Rider]

What about giving it haze? While Unaware may ensure it isnt affected by stat up, it doesnt necessarly mean it will always be able to beat stat uped opponent. I think Haze would be a good last resort move, ensuring that even it it cant directly stop the boosted sweeper, it will give the rest of your team the chance to.

Im suggesting this over roar partially cause roar/whirlwind are already on a large amount of OU poke while Haze isnt and cause the priority and effect of forcing a switch are both not always desired.