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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 2 - Main Type Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by darkie, Dec 4, 2008.

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  1. DougJustDoug

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    I understand the arguments for Water when looking specifically at the concept of checking top threats. I just have a hard time seeing ANOTHER Water pokemon in OU. There are so many other great Water pokemon, one of the only ways we can successfully get this in use would be to outclass many others. If we outclass many other Waters, we'll have to make this thing spectacularly powerful and versatile.

    If we go with Water, this pokemon will be competing for a team slot against stuff like Gyarados, Swampert, Starmie, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Kingdra, and Suicune. Obviously teams can and will carry more than one water pokemon -- but there are lots of good options when it comes to water pokemon. OU waters have a lot of variety and can do lots of things. If we make a water pokemon, it will be very hard to make one that fits on a team better than the waters already available. I'm worried that the way we make it "fit", will be by making it "better". I hope not, but it does concern me.

    I'm voting for Ground, because I think the field is a little more open for us to make a pokemon that can fit on a team. Pokemon like Fidgit, Swampert, Mamoswine, Gliscor, and Hippowdon are the primary OU Grounds. Those pokemon don't have nearly as much role-variety as the murderers row of water pokemon I listed earlier. There is still a lot left to be done with Ground.
  2. nihilist

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    Okay, so here are the pokes that we should consider to be able to switch into:
    1. Stratagem
    2. Revenankh
    3. Fidgit
    4. Tyranitar
    5. Zapdos
    6. Syclant
    7. Blissey
    8. Heatran
    9. Scizor
    10. Pyroak
    So out of the ten, here are the attack types that we have to be worried about:
    Rock, Dark, Fight, Elec, Fire, Steel, and Ice

    Fight: +3 dark, rock, and bug
    Water: +2 Steel, Fire -1 Elec
    Ground: +2 Elec, Rock (weak to ice and grass)
    Steel: +3 Rock, Dark, Steel -2 (fire, fight)
    Dragon: +2 fire and elec, -1 Ice

    Water ground looks good, but it defeats the purpose of absorbing elec attacks since a lot of Zappy's carry HP Grass

    Water/Fight looks the most feasible since it stops fire, ice, steel, rock, and dark. It will have to be fairly bulky since these are all 2x resistances with no 4x or immunities (unless we give it an ability)
    Its weak to elec, grass, flying, and psychic.
    Of those, electric and grass are the only ones that are extremely common.
    Although flying will be used a lot more to combat this and revy.
    Additionally its a great counter for gyarados.

    Dragon/Fighting gives a very, very interesting type combo because it resists fire, dark, rock, and electric. Although it is weak to ice, flying, psychic, and dragon. STAB mach punch can help with scyclant if you switch in on a bug move. If we form this as a tank, it can lead to some very interesting results. Im voting FIGHTING for the first poll because it seems like it would fit the most for both. This can be viable both physically and special, although physical would fit much better. It is a great offensive combination as well, with only steel's resisting dragon attacks, and fighting being neutral to all steels. This also helps because fight/dragon is a new type combo and there are too many waters already. This walls HP flying-less strategem, most tyranitar, zappy, and heatran with the right defenses. If it is high in attack too, then it can nail heatran, revy, bliss, and syclant with mach punch/ vacuum wave/ draco/ outrage/close combat. (not a moveset, but potential moves that can be given to it.

    Dragon/Water: 4x resist fire, resist steel, and neutral to the rest. I dont this this is as viable because unless this is a wall, it shouldnt be able to take Tar's CB stone edges/crunches, boosted rev hammer arms, or very much of anything. The stabs offensively do cover a very wide range of the top 10 if its physical.
  3. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    Here's where you go wrong: Flying and Psychic are already very common types in the metagame. So what does that accomplish again?
  4. nihilist

    nihilist

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    psychic and flying are used on which of those pokemon on the top 10?
    hp flying strategem, which can be fixed with a priority move
    zapdos, sometimes, but it cant take out most of them.

    this is supposed to be a decentralizer right?
    Strong defenses w/ a high physical attack seems right
  5. tennisace

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    The top 10 isn't the entire metagame, you're neglecting the rest of OU.
  6. Goodbar

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    Fire/Flying with mountaineer
    1. Stratagem - steer clear, but seeing how 6/9 of the other top 10 pokes are fairly effective counters, i'm not concerned
    2. Revenankh - stab is SE against it, resists fighting
    3. Fidgit - can't say much here due to its roles
    4. Tyranitar - could potentially check this due to ability
    5. Zapdos - probably won't do much about it but could potentially check as well depending on stat spread and assuming roost
    6. Syclant - resists bug, neutral to ice, stab destroys it
    7. Blissey - can't say much here either
    8. Heatran - resists stab and earth power, could hurt back depending on movepool
    9. Scizor - lol
    10. Pyroak - yea...
    11. Also could counter Metagross and Skymin who are up there
    that's how my suggestion, and i know mentioning ability seems like poll jumping, but looking at the big picture is never bad, and is the only way this type will be effective (see moltres), but i think you can see it has some potential

    this is water and how secondary typing will affect it
    1. Stratagem - steel probably best secondary typing but i don't think countering this is all too important
    2. Revenankh - flying/bug probably best option, ghost/psychic might work as well
    3. Fidgit - n/a
    4. Tyranitar - steel or fighting, partially ground/dark
    5. Zapdos - ground/electric with volt absorb ?_?
    6. Syclant - a lot of options work here as water already resists one of its stabs
    7. Blissey - n/a
    8. Heatran - gonna have to be somewhat bulky if theres no ground/extra fire resist
    9. Scizor - steel would be good, ghost too
    10. Pyroak - grass resist
    It really seems that one secondary type helps it against some but hurts it against others. Like Doug said we could end up creating a role for this that is very similar to something out there too, and there's nothing top OU centric coming out of this type...I just hope if this is chosen we can do something unique with it

    EDIT: I considered steel/ghost but being heatran weak seems like a turn off even if it is number 8 on cap...
  7. The Business Man

    The Business Man

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    All I have to say is even though I haven't participated in the CAP program yet, I still have come and checked out what was going on.

    This whole Water thing probably should go down. The thing is, there are already SO many Water types in the game that I feel that another one really isn't needed. But, perhaps pick some of the best defensive typings in the game?

    Dragon/Steel
    Weaknesses: Fighting, Ground
    Neutral: Fire, Ice, Dragon
    Resistances: Normal, Water, Electric, Grass x4, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Steel
    Immunities: Poison

    Notes: Although Dragon/Steel is already used by Dialga, I doubt you'll be seeing that legendary dragon in OU anytime soon, thus giving Dragon/Steel a unique typing in the OU metagame. Provides great resistances to Tyranitar's STAB attacks, Stratagem's STAB, Zapdos's STAB, both of Scizor's STAB attacks, and some good resistances to Psychic, Water, and Ghost. Weak to two common Physical attacking types in Fighting and Ground, but Ground can be removed with Levitate. Dragon/Steel neutralizes Dragon's Ice weakness and Steel's Fire weakness. Could be an amazing defensive typing if given some good stats.

    Steel/Ghost
    Weaknesses: Fire, Ground
    Neutral: Dark, Ghost, Electric, Water
    Resistances: Bug x4, Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Rock, Steel
    Immunities: Fighting, Normal, Poison

    Notes: An unused typing as of yet, and a good typing at that. It's immunities allow it to come in on Fighting types and it can also block Rapid Spin. It resists the common attacking types of Grass, Ice, and Rock and also gives off resistances to both of Scizor's and Syclant's STAB attacks. Fire weakness and Ground resistance is the same as the Steel/Psychic pokemon and they have proved to have a great defensive typing.

    So I will just throw out the idea to pick Steel as the primary typing as it can combine with many types to provide extremely useful Resistances and give off little weaknesses.
  8. Lawman

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    As far as main type preferences go, my first choice would have to be Ground, followed by Steel (yes steel, I will get to that).



    As far as water goes, Doug pretty much said it all in that we already have a huge amount of water types and if we are essentially going to create the ultimate bulky water/tank/thing or whatever people have in mind right now, outclassing all of those OU waters would not produce a pokemon good for the metagame, as it would take the place of most of those other pokemon. If you people really want a Water type in CaP, use Tentacruel or Gastrodon, who both do very good jobs at some of the top 10 threats, and are highly overlooked.

    Water would be good, but I can sum this up in saying we are creating a pokemon whose role is filled already in different ways by several water type pokemon already.



    Ground is my favored choice here, even though it would definately need a secondary typing to increase resistances, have less weaknesses, and so on, as to better fill the role of checking several of the top 10. Obviously, with ground it can ko heatran, threaten Fidget, resist STAB hits from Scizor Tyranitar and Stratagem, immune to Zapdos' common stab, and can provide some more versatility in a vary narrow ranging role selection for ground types (excluding Fidget).

    A secondary typing for this would be hard to pick however. Fire first comes to mind, but you gain a ground and another water weakness, lose your resistance to Rock, but in return you resist Bug and Fire, and lose your weaknesses to Ice and Grass. Ground/Fire typing would be able to effectively check Heatran, Scizor, Syclant, Fidget, as well as Zapdos and Pyroak to an extent.

    Ground/Dragon also seems promising. It boosts resistances to Grass, Rock, Fire, immunity to Electric, and only has to weaknesses, Dragon and Ice, the second of which would be the only main concern, as Dragons aren't as common on CaP as in Standard. With this typing, potential pokemon it can check are non-Icy Wind Stratagem, Tyranitar, HP Iceless Zapdos, Pyroak, Heatran (if it can deal with HP Ice users, yet again), and Fidget. Syclant would simply eat it alive however, and HP Ice from special users could threaten it. However, it is not meant to counter the entirety anyways, so having an already common pokemon as a counter wouldn't be that bad imo.

    Truth be told I would have supported Ground/Water except for the fact that typing already exists in two pokemon with the potential to check some of the top 10 as it is.


    Now on to my second favored typing, Steel.

    A steel type alone wouldn't be that good. Only resisting Rock, Ice, Poison, Grass, and Bug out of the STABs of the top 10. However, a secondary typing can fix this. This would also be water's second best bet if the pokemon were not to serve as a Zapdos counter. However, the biggest thing with Steel is its Fighting weakness (along with ground of course). With a Steel/Ghost typing, it would be neutral to Tyranitar's Crunch and resist it's Stone Edge, The only thing from Stratagem that would threaten it would be Earth Power. Fire would be the biggest weakness here, but aside from that and the ground weakness (which would be fixed with a certain ability ;>__>), Steel Ghost would actually do fairly well against lot of the top ten sans Zapdos and Heatran (which truth be told I have never had problems against either, but I guess that is just me).


    So... yea that is pretty much the basics from me, though I would be happy to provide some more arguements for my cases. Overall, I am strongly opposed against Water, and my two preferred types would be Ground or Steel, with Ground paired up with either Fire or Dragon, and Steel paired up with Ghost.

    Edit: wow I didn't even see your post and we both agreed with Steel/Ghost, nice :D
  9. tennisace

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    There are already a ton of steel types in the game too, your point is? Who cares how many of one type there are, the stats, movepool, and ability make the Pokemon more often than the typing. Typing is usually a bonus. Case in point: Whiscash vs. Swampert.
  10. The Business Man

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    My point would be that practically every type has been paired with Water by one pokemon or another. The only types Water hasn't combined with would be Ghost and Fire.

    Not only that, but the role of a 'decentralizer' would probably be a tank, correct? (If I'm wrong here, then sorry) The definition of tank when talking about water types is more or less a 'bulky water'. A water type with strong defensive stats and some attacking power to back it up. Isn't that pretty much describing many of the Water types in OU? Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, Milotic, Gyarados (when Bulky), Tentacruel, etc.

    My point is, that while water would be great type, Steel could be just as good while using a unique typing. Sure, there are also a lot of Steel types, but not nearly enough as Water and the Steel types that are available now seem to provide fairly different roles for each team.
    Heatran is often a special sweeper, Scizor a physical sweeper or Baton Passer, Forretress a Spinner/Spiker/Supporter, Metagross a physical sweeper, Jirachi a supporter/CM sweeper (I think), Bronzong a lead/tank/wall/or screen support. There's probably a lot more but those are the most common OU Steels and they each provide something that the other does not. The only really similar ones would be Scizor+ Metagross or Jirachi+Bronzong.

    So yeah, just my opinion.
  11. tennisace

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    Responding separately.

    Yeah and? Water/Bug is Skurskit, but you don't see that around really, am I right? And Steel has been combined with a shitload of types too (Even discounting Dialga.)

    Not necessarily. It could be anything that counters/checks top Pokemon in the metagame. And all those pokemon, while being "bulky Water-types", have secondary roles. Why bother using Swampert instead of Gyarados, they're both bulky Water-types? Why bother using Tentacruel or Milotic, when Vaporeon is clearly better at taking hits?

    All the water types in OU have different roles, or else there would be only a couple.
  12. Lawman

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    *I will try to keep this concise unless prompted otherwise*

    Well tennis, compared to Waters, Steel types are not that numerous in OU, yet i will not deny that they are commonplace. What i was saying was that I feel that plenty of Waters already do the job of countering several of the top 10 threats. Besides, Whiscash is UU and Swampert is OU so that comparison is a bit unfair (though I would have accepted a Gastrodon/Swampert comparison but even then the biggest differnce between those two are movepool. It is not really about the number of OU Water types, rather the number of OU Waters types who already fill very similar roles.

    As far as my steel arguement goes, I still think it is an inferior option to ground, I just feel that it can potentially work. The steel types I can count of the top of my head are Scizor, Bronong, Jirachi, Metagross, Forretress, Magnezone, and Skarmory.

    Bronzong, Jirachi, and Metagrossal have identical typing yet fill very different roles, but I wouldn't say they can check many of the top 10 pokemon. Generally, they would be able to check Tyranitar (though switching on on Crunch/Earthquake/Superpower could be a bit threatening), Stratagem, Syclant, and fare differently depending on moveset against a few others, but even then they would barely serve as a check against 4 of those pokemon in most cases.

    Skarmory doesn't really cut it against the top 10, accept against Scizor and Fidget maybe. CB Stone Edge from Tar even when nuetral can still 2hko it, it won't be switching into or staying in on Stratagem any time soon, Rev is only scared of Drill Peck and Brave Bird but I have beaten Skarmories with it before. Zapdos has heat wave and stab bolt at its disposal, Heatran is obvious, Syclant, though scared of flying, would be able to 2hko with ice beam iirc, blissey is somewhat irrelevant here, and Pyroak hits SE with STAB.

    Magnezone doesn't do much at all against the top 10. Blissey walls non-explosion versions, Tyranitars and Stratagem's SS SpDef boost help against special attacks, and you won't be seeing Luster Cannon (is that the right name or am i thinking the japanese name?) on Magnezone very often. Zapdos walls it and has Heat Wave to work with. Heatran though it cant switch can choose between Earth Power and Fire Blast, Fidget is immune to its main stab and is fast enough to hit with earth power before it can use substitute/electrolevitate, Pyroak resists it STABs and hits it SE, Syclant's stabs are resisted but Brick Break or HP Ground from it can still do a number, and Rev hits it SE with Mach Punch/Hammer Arm.

    Scizor threatens Tyranitar, Stratagem, Syclant, and Blissey, but other than that the other pokemon can either wall or threaten it back. Zapdos, Heatran, Pyroak all can hit it SE, Rev can fare well against it but it can go either way between them.

    Forretress is really spikes and set up and doesnt serve to really counter pokemon aside from Tyranitar, fire-less strata, and syclant.

    Steel/Ghost has the potential to Check 5 or more of the top ten as opposed to at most 4 like the other Steels viable in OU would be able to do. The comparison to Water really isn't fair as the are many more water types with a larger variety of general roles, but amongst those are very similar roles, even if they already present. Selecting a water type overall would mean having another way to do the same thing, while picking a ground or steel type varies it a bit in that even though a role might seem familiar for that type, it either accomplishes it in a more disintguished and specific way, or improves upon what is already there. Steel and Ground have plenty of room to grow in roles and versatility, whilst the water type already has those roles and purposes presnt and do a damn good job at them as it is.

    I will be on later tonight to discuss this more.
  13. nihilist

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    Okay, noticable other flying type attacks:
    dugtrio: aerial ace, priority move
    skymin: you got me there, but it needs its checks.
    gyara: bounce, sorta rare.
    Togekiss: would be severly damaged through outrage/CC and SR.

    I just think that Dragon/Fighting comes up the closest to being able to take out most of the central threats while being a very offensively viable combo. The best spread would probably be a tank with very high Atk. And I know we shouldn't vote according to this, but, Dragon/Fight would be aesthetically really cool!

    Vote Dragon/Fight
  14. The Business Man

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    I'll do the same..

    Alright, it's true that while Water has been combined with a lot, not many of those typings has been given a useful role (Surskit) or what have you.

    But I doubt you'll see a fragile sweeper becoming the decentraizer, correct? A tankish sweeper could work (Heatran) but really, in order to check/counter top Pokemon it's going to have to carry some defenses in order to actually survive hits from the power that some of the top pokemon possess. Gyarados and Swampert actually have a fairly different set of resistances and Weaknesses and can fill completely different roles. I probably shouldn't have included Gyarados in with the others... And I understand your point in that the Moveset and Stats will seperate this Water type from the other, I can't help but get the feeling that they will be quite similar. Although I am new to this CAP stuff, isn't the point to also create something unique? Or is it just the 'Decentralizer: Counter the top threats in the metagame.'?

    They can fill slightly different roles just with Movesets and Stats, but they are all still fairly similar and can provide very similar roles to a team. Thus why the would be grouped into the category of 'Bulky water'. But yes, I understand what you mean in this quote. The Moveset and Stats will set each pokemon apart from one another.

    But, it's just my opinion that something unique could be made that would bring a new element or category to the metagame. Seeing as how most waters can be countered using the same strategy, moves, etc. a new unique typing or whatever could bring new ideas on how to deal with said pokemon...

    Again, just some thoughts. As I said before, I understand where the Water supporters are coming from. But I just feel that some new or fresh ideas and such could come from a different type (and I just have chosen to support Steel thanks to it's plethora of resistances).
  15. tennisace

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    Depends. In a way, Stratagem decentralized the metagame by bringing in SS and taking out all flying types really.


    Isn't just making a CAP bringing in something new, since we're not making exact clones of anything? I see where you're coming from here though.
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