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CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Aug 13, 2013.

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  1. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    As the result of a blow-out in Typing Poll 1, Steel / Flying will be the typing of CAP 6! What does this mean for the rest of the process? We'll find out soon enough. For now, let's discuss some of the threats that CAP 5 is going to have. Remember, capefeather is leading this discussion, so make sure to reply to his posts and focus on the thoughts he is conveying. Also, here are some more questions to think about in this thread:

    • Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU (or relevant) metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?
    • What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
    • What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
    • What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
    • Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats?
    • Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
    • What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
    • Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
    • Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
    • What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
    • What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
    • What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?
    Obviously, no individual post has to answer every question. Please keep the assumptions minimal (e.g. "CAP 6 will have at least one STAB") to avoid poll-jumping.

    CAP 6 so far:

    Typing: Steel / Flying
  2. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    When talking about threats in relation to a setup sweeper, we can pinpoint five different ways in which it can threaten the opposing team throughout a match:
    • Threatening a switch-in
    • Threatening the setup move
    • Threatening to attack opposing Pokemon after setting up
    • Threatening to attack opposing Pokemon before setting up
    • Using a different set altogether
    Normally, I wouldn't find it necessary to get into this level of detail at the beginning of a threat discussion. However, with Belly Drum being the main focus of CAP 6, we need to be really precise in what we're talking about when when referring to "checks" and "counters".

    Let's begin with some of the implications of answering these threats. The more answers there are to the threat of attacking before or after setting up, the less relevant the threat of the setup move becomes. At the same time, the more answers there are to the threat of attack before setting up, the more relevant the threat of attack after setting up and the threat of Belly Drum itself becomes. The threat of switching in is largely agreed to be tied closely to a Pokemon's overall viability, but the Pokemon always has the option of switching in after a teammate KO. Finally, we need to carefully consider the threat of using a different set altogether. The relevance of the Belly Drum set's threats and answers can depend greatly on how different the answers to other sets are to the answers to the Belly Drum set, and of course we still need to make Belly Drum the best set.

    I was going to end with a Digimon, but that would be expected/10 and I'm not interested in fuelling more hater rhetoric, so:

    [​IMG]

    ^Hobbes would be proud
  3. Vividsketch

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    Well it's obvious at this stage, based purely on typing, Movemon is going to share many of the same threats as SKARMORY does.

    Namely MAGNEZONE is looking to be a hard counter at this point. Even with a Belly Drum under its belt, without the sufficient tools, MAGNEZONE is likely to stop this thing dead in its tracks.

    Do we necessarily want this? Maybe we do, as a means of stopping an otherwise Belly Drumming behemoth. Personally I don’t want this, a it could prove this project to be very narrow and the lesson to be learnt from a ‘successful’ Belly Drummer in OU is likely to be severely stunted.

    Conversely other ELECTRICS - THUNDURUS-T, ZAPDOS, JOLTEON and Rotom-W are also looking to be at least checks base on typing and speed. It could be largely a case of: Will Movemon have the appropriate priority and sufficient power to deal with these threats directly after the switch into a Belly Drum? And if the switch in before a Belly Drum (for instance a double switch), do they then become viable checks/counters? Personally I think this is a reasonable trade off. I also like the idea of ZAPDOS’ and ROTOM-W’s superior bulk over the other Electric becoming an asset again.

    These are just some of the more obvious treats to get the ball rolling.....

    HEATRAN yes. And most OU STEELS present themselves as issues. Ironically, especially Movemon's brother in arms itself, SKARMORY.

    SKARMORY (and other steels) threaten to do what they have been doing since their conception, and that is come in an simply shut down set up sweepers just by appearing! Again, without the proper tools this Mon could see a dead end and reveal why, to this day, a Belly Drummer has not succeeded in OU before.

    psg edit: Don't thread hog, simply edit your post if you want to add something soon after posting.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  4. srk1214

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    Aside from the Electrics, Fires are obviously threats too.

    Heatran is a large threat that simply cannot be bypassed with Steel/Flying stab alone. Similarly, Infernape will threaten CAP6 as well, though it can't switch in safely on a Flying move.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  5. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    I actually see Jolteon being a substantially larger thread than Magnezone.
    Yeah, Magnezone traps us, but we already don't want to have to switch out because we'll lose our +6 boost from belly drum, and we won't have the HP to belly drum again when we come back in, even with something like regenerator as an ability, we'll be low on health if we have to switch out. And while Magnezone is a giant wall to bot of our Stabs, at least it is slow, and a good cover move could kill it.

    Jolteon, on the other hand, is fast fast fast, so we'll need to use our priority attack to try to kill it, and bullet punch is only going to do 50% damage, so, without an ability to boost it, Jolteon might be able to tank it and will PROMPTLY be able to kill us. Any number of other electric types might also outspeed us, and some even are packing Static as an ability which could cripple our CAP unless it resists paralysis.

    I don't really think this is a problem though, because you shouldn't bring out your belly drummer first thing, so you're just going to have to get Jolteon outta there before you bust out this CAPmon. Odds are heavily against the enemy team packing 2 electric types, so you shouldn't have to worry about clearing out more than one.

    And I think that's fine. Jolteon should be a check/counter because, especially with a belly drummer, even just forcing a switch is really really powerful, you essentially get to remove 50% of his health without even hitting him
    dwarfstar likes this.
  6. alexwolf

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    Here are the Pokemon that resist our STAB combo in OU:

    Heatran, Jirachi, Jolteon, Magnezone, Metagross, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Thundurus-T

    So those Pokemon are all gonna be checks and counters in one way or another. Azumarill resists one of ours STABs and has strong neutral priority against us that can probably OHKO the CAP after using BD.

    Outside of those, good checks would be faster Pokemon that resist Steel and can outspeed the CAP, while not being weak to Flying. Some fast Pokemon with those traits are Starmie, Scarf Politoed, and speedy Ninetales.
  7. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    This is actually beginning to worry me, a lot of fast pokémon resist steel, and even if they can only force a switch, that just caused our CAP to waste 50% of his health and lose his +6 attack. That makes even his checks look a lot more like counters unless we give him some totally bonkers stats or a crazy good ability to stop so many things from checking us . . . But giving a powerful sweeper something so strong, like a tinted lens, is worrisome.

    I wish that Flying also had a priority attack, because then we'd only need to worry about fast things that resist BOTH of our Stabs =(. But alas. We need to just work with what we have been given.
  8. Vividsketch

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    I'm all for the majority of ELECTRICS being checks to Movemon. I think it woudl be healthy to promote the Electric type a bit more. I'm actually rather in favor JOLTEON being viable check due to it's speed and ZAPDOS due to it'a bulk for instance, with THUNDURUS-T suffering somewhere in the middle.

    However I don't really want the generic MAGNEZONE being such a direct counter. I prefer we had a way around that. this is likely achievable simply with a speed tier above ZONE's but bellow the others. Which I imagine is somewhat where we are likely to go any way.


    In terms of SCARF threats, we need to look at each of them more closely and decide which we think we should be able to over come with priority and which we choice to fall short of as priority won't to do.....

    This might simply be resolved in the form o alternative priority in the form of EXTREMESPEED for instance. It provide more power than a 40 base STAB flying move any way, not to mention +2 priority.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
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  9. topher4167

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    I don't really have anything to add to alexwolf's list of pokemon CAP6 is threatened by, but I can answer the question of what pokemon CAP6 threatens. By typing alone, CAP6 threatens: Breloom, Celebi, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Keldeo, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Toxicroak, Tyranitar, Venusaur, and Volcarona. We can and should remove Infernape and maybe Volcarona due to the fact that they can hit us hard with super-effective STAB, and Infernape can possibly hit us with neutral priority with Mach Punch. Other pokemon we should be able to threaten are Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor since we resist both STABs of all three pokemon, and we can hit them hard with powerful Flying-type attacks, even though they hit only for neutral damage. But this can be said for most of the tier; Flying-type is a great offensive typing to have, as it hits most pokemon in OU at least neutrally. (So I bolded the pokemon I think CAP6 should threaten)
  10. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    I am not inherently against extremespeed, but I really worry that, suddenly, electric types wouldn't be checks anymore, because Jolteon surviving a +6 extremespeed, even an extremespeed that isn't STAB, is probably not going to happen.

    And this is starting to poll jump, so I don't want to do that, I just want to illustrate that our pool of priority attacks may not be super large depending on what we want our threats to be.
  11. S0L1D G0LD

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    I see the biggest threat being Skarmory, as he resists our stab, most of the common priority, and he carries the ever deadly whirlwind, which will cripple our cap for the remainder of the battle. Even worse, he can easily set up spikes/rocks as we drum, which will severely hinder the rest of our team, and thanks to sturdy unless we hit him before drumming, and for enough that lefties will not bring him up to max again, he completely checks this cap by phazing and thus leaving us with a dead weight, fifty percent health team member who is set up bait for any strong sweeper on the foe's team. Sure, magic bounce or taunt might be a strategy, but we run the risk of making this cap's role different then belly drumming if we do so, or make him almost completely uncounterable.
  12. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    What about a speed trained Whimsicott with encore prankster, that would end our CAP because all you have to do is switch in after belly drummer and just encore it, and you either are going to probably force a switch.
  13. Vividsketch

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    This is a very specific threat. And I kinda think if we are tailoring such specific pokemon as counters then the project as actually been a success as it has proven that it can make significant difference in the current balance of the OU meta game.

    I agree that we need to make it so SKARMORY is less a a threat or barely a direct threat at all. Movemon is just so severely limited in its mission statement otherwise. I think SKARMORY should be added to the list of things that are NOT a threat.
  14. LimaPro643

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    Two weaknesses: Electric, Fire
    Neutralities: Ice, Fighting, Rock

    Anything strong that carries moves of those types is a serious threat. If CAP 6 has more than half its HP stripped on the first turn it is sent out(>75% if holding a Sitrus Berry), it is rendered useless. That is, it must be rendered useless, or Belly Drum isn't a good strategy for it. And I agree that anything faster that can Taunt it before a Belly Drum is a problem(most viable Taunt users are fast regardless).

    Since Skarmory has the same typing, it is good to think about Skarmory and the counters it has. Counters are not always type-based, but it is good to recognize that and think of how CAP 6 could be formed to counter some of Skarmory's counters.
  15. JacobM

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    Taunt is going to be huge against CAP 6. With hazards, even before the 50% HP loss, Cap 6 will not want to be switching out much if at all. A well placed Taunt will be as good as a OHKO (or, more realistically, severely limit it for the rest of the match). Phazing moves fall in much the same boat. And nearly every special attacker seen in OU carries strong neutral or SE moves against CAP 6. This means fast (or Prankster), certain support, and special attacking Pokemon will need to be considered carefully. These include (but are not limited to, off the top of my head) Sableye, Whimsicott, Tornadus, Jellicent; Jolteon, Jirachi, Keldeo, Starmie, Heatran; Skarmory, Hippowdon, "Red Card" users [rare since Deoxys has moved but still seen on Foretress sometimes].

    Cloyster also has some defense, a setup move of his own and strong neutral attacks. We shouldn't forget him.
  16. Korski

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    Well dang it if nobody told me this CAP was already broken!

    Common Choice Scarf Pokemon

    Garchomp
    Jirachi
    Keldeo
    Kyurem-B
    Landorus-T
    Latios
    Politoed
    Rotom-W
    Salamence
    Terrakion
    Thundurus-T

    Common Priority Users

    Breloom
    Conkeldurr
    Dragonite (resisted priority)
    Lucario (likely resisted priority)
    Mamoswine
    Scizor (resisted priority)

    Defensive Checks Based on Typing + Defensive Stats

    Heatran
    Jirachi
    Magnezone
    Metagross
    Rotom-W
    Skarmory

    Other

    Alakazam (Focus Sash)
    Dragonite (Multiscale)
    Haxorus (Choice Scarf)
    Heatran (Choice Scarf)
    Infernape (Choice Scarf)
    Jolteon (can survive Adamant +6 Bullet Punch from 120 base Atk, regardless of Stealth Rock)
    Magnezone (Choice Scarf)
    Starmie (Choice Scarf)
    Venusaur (Chlorophyll)

    --------------------

    Where do we begin? Perhaps at 50% HP? I wouldn't be surprised if SR + Belly Drum put CAP within the KO range of every single Choice Scarf user on that list. Here are some calcs against these common Scarfers for +6 Adamant Bullet Punch coming off of a completely unreasonable 120 base Atk:

    vs. Garchomp: 79.1% - 93.3% (activates Rough Skin)
    vs. Jirachi: 39.6% - 46.6%
    vs. Keldeo: 45.8% - 53.9%
    vs. Landorus-T (+5): 79.2% - 93.6%
    vs. Politoed: 53.1% - 62.7%
    vs. Rotom-W: 26% - 31%
    vs. Thundurus-T: 60.2% - 71.2%

    Let's try +6 Adamant Extremespeed from an underwhelming base 80 Atk stat:

    vs. Garchomp: 80.4% - 94.7% (activates Rough Skin)
    vs. Jirachi: 40.5% - 47.5%
    vs. Keldeo: 92.9% - 109.6%
    vs. Landorus-T (+5): 80.7% - 95.1%
    vs. Politoed: 108.7% - 128%
    vs. Rotom-W: 107.4% - 126.9%
    vs. Thundurus-T: 123% - 145%

    The first list is stuff that will take dramatically less damage than that because CAP will probably not be getting 120 base attack, and the second list just goes to show that only resistant Scarfers and things in the "Other" category that resist Normal will able to check this CAP once it's set up if we give it Extremespeed. So if you want to sign on for priority abuse, remember you are ONLY advocating for Extremespeed, as Bullet Punch is almost functionless in front of most common Scarfers, which is the only reason to run priority in the first place. Then also keep in mind that Scarf Jirachi, Terrakion, Heatran, Magnezone, and Gengar (why not) still won't be dealt with by this move. The other options are to either find a way to outrun these guys via ability or just accept that Choice Scarfers will continue to make decent revenge killers in the OU metagame.

    Then we've got priority abusers, yet Multiscale Dragonite, healthy Lucario, very healthy Conkeldurr, and Scizor all survive the +6 Extremespeed I subjected the Scarfers to. Bump that Atk up to base 100 and you still get the same result. Then again, CAP resists almost all of these opponents' priority attacks, so this whole category is sort of a wash. Breloom and Mamoswine are the least of our worries if we go the priority route. If we don't go the priority route and instead boost Speed via ability, only Conkeldurr and TechBreloom become moderately concerning.

    Defensive checks have the means to stop CAP in its tracks unless we resolve that in the movepool. Do we want this? We've already got a mess on our hands regarding the vast diversity of OU Choice Scarf users, especially bulky Scarfers. And Skarmory is obviously going to withstand most non-SE coverage attacks and Whirlwind if you've played wrong. We've got a huge debate looming over whether to go with a speed boosting ability, Extremespeed, or both (those are the only three options, imo) in order to make this CAP not instantly counterable in common battle conditions. This stage isn't as cut-and-dry as it seems. We need to come up with at least a vague gameplan, instead of simply identifying which OU Pokemon are Steel, Fire, or Electric-type.
    SotheBlacKnight and nyttyn like this.
  17. capefeather

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    Okay, maybe I should clarify a little bit more on my previous post. Right now, we're dealing with a Pokemon that's attempting to quadruple its power. A decent check before the Belly Drum might be completely wiped out after the Belly Drum. As an example of the sheer power we might end up dealing with, Chandelure OHKOes 4/0 Garchomp and 4/0 Gyarados after Stealth Rock damage with Overheat, given boosts from Choice Specs and sunlight... and that boost is still smaller than the 4x boost from Belly Drum. This is largely why I listed five different routes through which CAP 6 would threaten the opposing team. We should be more specific as to what kind of situation we mean when we're referring to various Pokemon as "checks" or "counters", and whether to let it happen.

    If we account for Flying Gem, then that opens up even more scenarios.
  18. alexwolf

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    Priority is useful against both Scarfers and opposing priority. Also, Bullet Punch has some targets that it covers and Extremspeed doesn't, such as Gengar, Terrakion, and Tyranitar so it still has merit. Furthermore, some people may not want Extremespeed because it's the strongest priority available, way stronger than Bullet Punch, which when combined with a +6 Atk boost may have dangerous results. Finally, both can be used on the same set for extended coverage.

    tl;dr Extremspeed doesn't outclass Bullet Punch.

    Regarding Korki's concern of if we prefer priority or speed boosting ability, i prefer the latter. With only priority it's almost impossible to sweep through offensive teams seeing how Jirachi, Terrakion, Gengar, and even Scarf Heatran can all take the ES and revenge kill us. I guess this could be fixed by using both Bullet Punch and ES, but this both takes two moveslots and assumes that we will choose both priority moves, which is much more to do than to choose the appropriate Speed boosting ability. Also, if we go the ability route this doesn't mean that we can't have priority too. Maybe not too strong priority (ES) but maybe weaker one (Bullet Punch).
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  19. Vividsketch

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    This list by Korski (awesome work mate!) is a good starting point for threats that we need to address whether not we want 'Movemon' to be able to deal with AFTER A BELLY DRUM. As 'capefeather' pointed out this is the thing to focus on.

    Do we want 'Movemon to be able to deal with the majority of 'Common Choice Scarf Pokemon'? If so which ones? Same to be said for 'Common Priority Users'. Are we happy to let them be checks or do we need to over come them?


    I've of the mind that we need to be able over come most of them. Of course there are some that are going to be almost impossible to deal with along with all the others (such as Scarf Jirachi or Scarf Magenzone), but that is ok. Im fact it's a good thing. There should always be a select few checks that slip through the cracks despite our best efforts.

    The reason I say it's important that we build to be able to handle the majority of these threats is because it is difficult enough to set up a Belly Drum, let along have it be shut down by a list of checks this large. Allot of things will be able to check/counter this thing before a Belly Drum, and there will still be plenty that can do so after a Belly Drum.
  20. srk1214

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    I think there are three very important discussions to have regarding threats to CAP 6:

    1) What should threaten us regardless of speed or priority (i.e. slower things like Magnezone or Heatran that don't use priority).
    This discussion basically is entirely about CAP 6's coverage, since these things are slow and don't carry priority. There seems to be a general assumption that CAP 6 will hit a decent speed tier, so we can probably safely consider anything below 80 speed as "slow," if not even a little higher.

    2) What should threaten us because it is fast and can deal ~50% damage?
    This discussion is about whether or not CAP 6 should get priority (and how strong would that priority need to be) to deal with none/some/most/all things that are faster and threaten to revenge CAP 6. Again, this touches on speed tiers, but I think we can safely call everything 110 and up as "fast." The 108 benchmark of the Musketeers is potentially more contentious, but we could lower the threshold for "fast" if people want to. Scarfers fit in here too. This also addresses bulk and typing, though probably less, since most of OU hits pretty hard.

    3) What should threaten us because it uses priority and can deal substantial enough damage to CAP 6 that Belly Drum leaves CAP 6 a sitting duck?
    This discussion is about the bulk CAP 6 will need to have in order to take none/some/most/all of common priority users and not be instantly compromised by having used Belly Drum. This discussion also touches on the same question as #2. If CAP 6 has priority, since it will likely be faster than the priority users of OU, how much should CAP 6's priority neutralize the threat from other priority users?

    These same sorts of questions can be inverted for what CAP 6 should threaten, but for now, I'd rather stick to what threatens CAP 6.


    (Yes this is basically entirely about threats to CAP 6 as it relates to Belly Drum usage. I don't think that's a bad thing. We are basing CAP 6 around Belly Drum and I think discussing alternatives, like CAP 6 that doesn't use Belly Drum, at this stage is a bad idea.)
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  21. jas61292

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    So, I see that Korski and alexwolf have both talked about speed boosting vs priority when looking at counters, but personally, I think there is a third option here that, unlike the other two, allow us to have actual offensive checks. Have neither, probably with natural speed instead. Personally, I find the notion that we should beat all scarfers to be ridiculous, and if we are boosting speed or having priority (outside of our STABs, that is), that is highly unlikely without limiting coverage ridiculously.

    When I look at the Pokemon out there that resist our STABs, I think that the ones that commonly run a scarf are good checks to have, IF they are running a Scarf. This can also easily be extended to super fast Pokemon like Jolteon, but that depends more on where we want to put the speed stat later on. I won't comment on anything specific, but if a Pokemon outspeeds us AND resists our STABs, it should be a check.

    I think what we have to remember is that offensive Pokemon don't take that much to kill. The attraction of Belly Drum is not being able to take these Pokemon down, as any good sweeper worth its teamslot already has enough power for that job. No, the attraction is the ability to smash through walls and non-wall resists. As such, we should be trying to avoid having too many defensive counters once set up. I don't think we need to have zero, but we should choose ones that can be isolated from the others. For example, we could give Ground moves later, stopping most steels from walling us, but leaving Skarmory as a solid counter. Same things with Fire and Heatran. Doesn't even have to be based purely on moves either, as we could choose a specific power level tailored specifically to cracking some, but not all walls. Regardless of which way we go though, I think we want to keep the number of these things that wall us very low.

    Again, I think the better way is to let the common scarfers do their job. Not all of them, certainly, but enough so that we are not unstoppable. Keldeo and Thundurus-T, for example, are guys that I think would be great to have as checks, but, again, only if Scarfed. As I mentioned at the beginning, we can always go the route of high Speed if we don't want a specific Scarfer to beat us. While I don't mean to specifically advocate anything, especially not something ridiculous, I think a cool example to look at is the interaction between Politoed and Jolteon. Obviously Politoed has the power to blast Jolteon right out of a battle, but Jolteon's speed is such that, even with a Scarf, Politoed just misses out on catching it. Simply repeating a situation like this is always an option if we want to limit which scarfers counter us.

    With that said, I do feel that we wouldn't want to limit this one too much. Almost every project where we have an offensive leaning, I get the feeling that people forget why revenge killers are used in the first place. They work because they are able to revenge kill Pokemon that are good and worth using. Not because they beat Pokemon that are bad and unworthy of a spot in OU. While I admit losing to too much is never a good thing, having these Pokemon beat us is not inherently bad, and is what I think the best way of keeping us balanced.

    To summarize, I think Pokemon like Keldeo, Jirachi, Politoed, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, should be our main checks, if using a scarf, along with other fast steel resisting Pokemon, such as Jolteon, Starmie (and maybe Keldeo/Jirachi, depending on where we want to set speed), and that we should have one or two, but not much more, hard defensive counters, with Skarmory being what I think is the best choice. On the flip side of things, we should threaten almost everything else in the game. If we don't after a belly drum, we are probably doing something wrong.
  22. Qwilphish

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    I agree with alexwolf in that we should attempt to outspeed our opponents instead of using priority against them. This is because we are able to beat a wider range of Pokemon should we go that path. Also, we are able to abuse our excellent Flying STAB to the fullest extent, something which was a big contributor to our typing. Looking at Korski's list of Pokemon, the number of Choice Scarfers on that list is far higher than the number of defensive checks which means that we should have an easier time sweeping through the opponents team. Looking at calcs, it is almost impossible to get through the defensive counters with an average attack stat. Due to this, I would rather have to get rid of those choice Pokemon before being able to sweeping instead of having to lure out the opponents Scarfers and destroy (something that is almost impossible to do outside of having another sweeper in the wing them while having to ALSO get through whatever defensive answers in order for CAP6 to do its job successfully (something that is almost impossible to do outside of having another sweeper in the wings). IMO, having our checks/counters being based upon our typing is the optimal situation for this CAP to go on, simply because it encourages smart teambuilding and because it encourages good playing (i.e. working towards a win condition). This is compared to going the priority route (assuming Bullet Punch and Extremespeed), which is basically a one-man wrecking machine who is only checked by a few threats, even less when you consider that we get Flying-STAB. This is a terrible scenario because not only does it not teach us anything, but we would also create a potentially broken CAP.

    With this in mind here is my ideal checks/counters:
    Priority Users: Breloom, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Mamoswine (obviously none of these can take any hit from us, but the point is that they can potentially hit us hard with neutral priority)
    Electric Types- Jolteon, Magnezone, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T
    Steel Types- Skarmory, Metagross, Heatran
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
    alexwolf likes this.
  23. Namso

    Namso
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    During typing discussion, we emphasized the need for this specific CAP to have a typing that not only was very good defensively, but also lackluster offensively. This would eliminate the need for people to use this CAP in ways other than Belly Drum from an offensive standpoint. With that said, it's clear to everyone that there are going to be a variety of Pokemon this CAP is going to have as checks and counters when you solely look at its STAB moves. Courtesy of alexwolf, we have the following relevant Pokemon resistant to our STAB moves:

    Heatran, Jirachi, Jolteon, Magnezone, Metagross, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Thundurus-T

    Looking at this list, all of them cannot be dealt with easily using one coverage move. This is where we can decide what we want to have as checks and what we want to have as counters. For example, giving this CAP Ground-type coverage will leave Rotom-W, Skarmory, and Thundurus-T as counters/checks. Now here is what I think should be done in this case. Because Belly Drum is such a vital aspect of this CAP, and the fact that pulling it off itself is such a difficult task, the user should be rewarded with a near surefire sweep if they do happen to safely Belly Drum. For this reason, I strongly discourage having physical walls from instantly shutting down our sweep, but rather become iffy checks. So, looking at the list, Skarmory instantly presents itself as probably the best CAP counter yet, as it can easily phaze it with Whirlwind, thus completely nullifying this CAP's effectiveness for the remainder of the match. You can argue that Magnezone would pair well because of this, but I personally don't want to force myself into using Magnezone, which isn't even a good Pokemon, on every team that I want to use this CAP on. Physically defensive Jirachi, Heatran, and Rotom-W, although all of which are mostly outshined by their specially defensive sets, could also be a nuisance. Rotom-W in particular packs Will-O-Wisp which, although not completely shutting down CAP's sweep, is going to hamper this CAP easily since the residual damage will end up overtaking you when you consider Belly Drum + Stealth Rock damage + possible hit taken in the process. So basically, we have Skarmory, Jirachi, Heatran, and Rotom-W as possible Pokemon that could wall CAP hard. These Pokemon have to be dealt with adequately, because they all have tools to easily shut this CAP's concept down, by the appropriate coverage move (Fighting or Electric). Depending on the coverage move of choice, CAP is going to be open to the list of remaining Pokemon which are:

    Jolteon, Magnezone, Metagross, Thundurus-T

    If we go Fighting coverage, Thundurus-T stands out as the only Pokemon to completely resist CAP's moveset. Given how frail it is, I don't believe this is a serious issue and am okay with it being a potential check. However, Electric coverage makes it a little more interesting. This makes Jolteon, Magnezone, and Thundurus-T all potential checks. I personally think this is fine because they aren't necessarily perfect checks, but they have the possibility to revenge kill this CAP. Metagross is hit neutrally either way so it doesn't matter to me.

    I know this is getting relatively long, but I want to further discuss something I touched upon: revenge killing. For the purpose of this concept, I think revenge killing should be the primary method to threatening this CAP. Like I said above, I'd rather not have Pokemon that hard-counter it because it'd just be too easy for the opposition to just tack on this thing that ends anything this CAP wants to accomplish. I'd rather force the opposition to utilize methods to check the CAP through revenge killing means. For example, we have Breloom and Conkeldurr as potential revenge killers with their priority Mach Punch, and even Azumarill with its Aqua Jet. I've said before that I don't want this CAP getting priority on its own to deal with opposing priority users, so these Pokemon should exist to keep CAP in check and not completely obliterate everything in sight. I also said that this CAP is likely going to be getting Speed enhancing attributes, but I don't want it to be fast enough that it can't be outpaced by any Choice Scarf user or Chlorophyll/Swift Swim Pokemon. Topping Choice Scarf Gengar is probably the highest this CAP should have the ability to outpace, anything further than that is just too desperate. This leaves us with Starmie, Alakazam, Dugtrio, and Jolteon as Pokemon who can outrun CAP with Choice Scarf. It's up to the user if they want to Scarf any of these, as they are rarely, if ever, seen equipped with one. If they want to use them to revenge kill this CAP, so be it. Also, with rain and sun, you're going to get those Chlorophyll/Swift Swim Pokemon. The only relevant Pokemon of each are pretty much just Venusaur (standard reaches 530 Speed) and Kingdra (standard reaches 526), although not as common. Choice Scarf Gengar reaches 525 Speed), and I wanted Gengar to be the fastest threat this CAP should outpace. So this leaves both Venusaur and Kingdra (who don't run max Speed btw, so these numbers are just the minimum) as revenge killers under their respective weather. Is this okay? I think it is. I mean, if you don't want these two Pokemon from being potential revenge killers, pack Tyranitar or your own weather inducing Pokemon to stop that from happening. If you let your opponent dominate the weather game, it will leave CAP vulnerable. This further keeps it in check, which should be done.

    To summarize, this is my opinion on what we should have as threats:

    Counters:

    -No solid counters. The ability to instantly shut down CAP's sweep without hesitation really harms the success of this concept.

    Revenge killers:

    -Depending on whether we select Fighting or Electric (not Ground because of Skarmory) for coverage, Jolteon, Magnezone, and Thundurus-T are all potential checks.

    -Choice Scarf users faster than Choice Scarf Gengar should keep CAP in check (Starmie, Alakazam, Dugtrio, and Jolteon).

    -Priority users in Breloom, Conkeldurr, Azumarill, and Feraligatr should always have the ability to check CAP with priority, as CAP should not get priority on its own (imo).

    -Venusaur under the sun and Kingdra under the rain should outpace this CAP, as precautions on your part (ie. your own weather) can be taken to prevent this.


    Sorry for the stupid read.
    Jukain, Agile Turtle, Scrake and 4 others like this.
  24. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Some people are overly focusing on how to check and/or stop checks, rather than what to check and/or stop from checking. Ultimately, stuff like priority vs speed vs coverage isn't directly relevant right now. This isn't to say we shouldn't talk about them at all, but the focus should be on the threats themselves. jas61292 and Fuzznip have the right idea here, zeroing in on what options the opponent should have once CAP 6 has gotten the Belly Drum off. Hopefully, we can eventually discuss the other scenarios I mentioned in the beginning as well.
  25. Millky95

    Millky95

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    I feel like Skarmory could be a real counter. It resists the STABs and has Sturdy. Comes in when CAP6 Drums then can Whirlwind it away. And once CAP6 has drummed, lost most of it's health, it's almost useless.

    There are 3 simple ways to resist CAP6 at the moment: Type resists, Revenge killing by Priority and revenge killing by higher speed.

    Types that resist the STAB (either both or just one) are:
    Fire (resists steel)
    Water (resists steel)
    Electric (resists both)
    Steel (resists both)

    Assuming CAP6 uses Drum+STAB+STAB+Coverage CAP6 still has Pokemon that resist it. Assuming it used Ground coverage, Water types such as Intimidate Gyarados could be a counter. If it goes Electric coverage then almost any Electric or Fire type should still be safe.

    Disregarding stats, use of priority and coverage moves I believe checks should be Pokemon that resist the STAB and are bulky enough to hit back or fast enough (with or without a Choice Scarf) to hit back. That leaves:
    Skarmory
    Jarachi
    Magnazone

    Heatran
    Starmie
    Gyarados
    Keldeo
    Jellicent
    Thundurus - T
    Rotom-W
    Jolteon

    And any other Scarfer I may have missed.
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