CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Korski, Aug 17, 2013.

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  1. thecanvashat

    thecanvashat

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    One ability I think may be good is Marvel Scale. This ability can prevent the CAP6 from getting more dance when it is already statuses. It can prevent the CAP from being weakened too much by attacks and status at the same time.

    Alternatively, Water Veil is able to prevent Burns 100% of the time, allowing CAP6 to have immunity to all damaging status.
  2. Nyktos

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    A lot of people have had complaints about the threatlist. I have some concerns myself, but one thing I very much like about it is the fact that only the 110+ base Speed scarfers are listed as necessarily being able to revenge kill. This opens to door to speed-boosting abilities. In particular, I believe Unburden is by far our best chance of making Belly Drum work in OU.

    Unburden, with a Sitrus Berry and even HP, means that using Belly Drum will essentially double CAP 6's Speed in addition to its large Attack boost, and do so at the cost of only 25% HP (with the limitation that the CAP still has to have over 50% to use it). This only works once in a given battle, which makes it an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket strategy, but Belly Drum itself already has strong shades of that with the large HP loss making it highly impractical to use more than once. Unburden makes it much more reasonable for that one shot to actually lead to a sweep by preventing revenge killing by unboosted Pokémon and the slower scarfers. This does admittedly constrain our Speed stat to be 70 or below and quite likely close to that exact number in order to underspeed the base 110 scarfers without doing the same to every other scarfer in the tier. This is unfortunate, but if doing that is a goal (which I think it must be: losing to every scarfer makes us bad, simple as that) then any ability will lead to an equally precise number. Of course, if doing that is not a goal than even Unburden doesn't require such precision.

    There have already been suggestions that Unburden is too good. However, I think these concerns are overblown. ginganinja posted some calculations that suggest the healing from Sitrus Berry makes you "unrevengeable". To some extent this is a red herring because you have the option of running Sitrus Berry with any ability (except Gluttony, which presumably wants Salac Berry). Even if it is accepted that problems caused by Sitrus Berry are inherent to Unburden, those calculations are based around the assumption that "your HP stands at exactly 75%", which is the case only if Stealth Rock is not on the field and you were able to set up without taking a hit. This is not the typical state of affairs! It's not unusual for a resisted attack from an offensive Pokémon to be doing 25%, and quite typical for it to be doing the 12.5% that nullifies the Sitrus healing in combination with Stealth Rock. (Even Scizor's U-turn, which we doubly resist, does more than 18% minimum to the 80/80/80 bulk ginganinja is assuming.) In fact, with Sitrus Berry, your typical HP after a Drum is probably around 50%.

    Unburden is a very powerful ability, and that can be scary. But I really don't think there is anything to be afraid of here. Unburden doesn't make it any easier to set up, and while it makes revenge killing more difficult, we are firmly in control of how difficult it is through the stats stage.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  3. BrianFantana

    BrianFantana

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    Addressing the problem of Electric attacks/paralysis has already come up, but throughout the threatlist discussion the ability in the forefront of my mind has been plain old Limber. Limber turns shaky setup bait into surefire setup bait, making it much, much easier to setup against Ferrothorn, Blissey and some Celebi (Perish Song here being the spanner in the works). It means CAP6 can beat and set up against parahax Jirachi, but not other Jirachis, who remain viable checks. And unlike Volt Absorb / Motor Drive, it doesn't mess with things that should be checking or countering bellycap (with the exception of the aforementioned Jirachi) - Magnezone, Jirachi, Rotom-W, Starmie and Jolteon get to keep their Electric attacks. To me, Limber seems like a fantastic aid at getting past things that CAP6 should be getting past without shutting down anything it shouldn't.

    Edit: brief thoughts on a couple of other abilities that seek to combat status.

    Quick Feet is, in my opinion, dreadful - it doesn't mitigate the attack drop of a burn and it doesn't mitigate the chance to be immobilized by paralysis (it would be like attempting a sweep with Focus Blast - and we all know how that ends up). It's a consolation prize at best should CAP6 be unfortunate enough to succumb to either of these statuses.

    Wonder Skin is okay. It's one of only a few sensible abilities that answers paralysis AND burns. But it's far too luck reliant, making switching in difficult - if CAP6 has to eat two Thunderwaves (one on the switchin and the other on the drum), it's got a 75% chance of getting hit by at least one of them. It's also a better defense against the already inaccurate Will-o-Wisp than against Thunder Wave, which is an issue because the latter is far more prevalent among the things CAP6 is supposed to be able to set up on. Hell, Wisp's biggest user in OU is probably Rotom-W, which is supposed to be a check.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  4. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan stay stay stay
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    I think Filter / Solid Rock could be helpful in easing setup. CAP 6 is losing 50% + 12.5% damage upon switching in and setting up, and a super effective move is bound to take it down. Therefore, an ability that reduces the damage dealt by super effective attacks would be beneficial. I'm hoping that CAP 6 will have enough bulk (or perhaps by virtue of its typing) to stomach an attack after setting up, and this will help it a lot while not making CAP 6 too strong.

    Magic Guard and Wonder Skin work in a similar vein by helping prevent status from completely crippling it (paralysis will make the CAP fairly pathetic without a priority move, and while burns don't completely destroy it, the residual damage will quickly stack up).

    Rattled or Motor Drive are also good choices in my opinion, as they give CAP 6 a chance to boost its Speed (which it will definitely enjoy, though it depends on its speed tier), without breaking the CAP. Rattled is fairly situational, and depends on prediction (at the very least it'll cut down on U-turn spam), and while Motor Drive grants an immunity to Electric-types, it's still situational and bulky Rotom-W (a threat) is still able to deal 51.92 - 61.26% with Hydro Pump, against a CAP 6 with 80 HP and 80 SpD and 252 HP investment (with no HP investment it'll deal around 10% more), enough to prevent CAP 6 from setting up. (And hey, it'll cut down on Volt Switch spam!)
  5. LimaPro643

    LimaPro643

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    I like Motor Drive and Volt Absorb. Motor Drive especially, because Volt Absorb restores HP, and no idiot would use an Electric-type move on it after a Belly Drum, and if it is low on HP on a switch-in, that means it had previously failed and still needs to use Belly Drum. With Motor Drive, it could switch in on an Electric-type move and get an effective Scarf without the move troubles. Of course, if people think that's overpowered(which I doubt because CAP 6 is forced to use Belly Drum), Volt Absorb is an option. One weakness is nice, too.

    Suction Cups is also decent for it competitively, but makes no sense flavor-wise.
  6. The Reptile

    The Reptile I can't think of a good custom title.
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    I want to throw more support towards Water Absorb
    Water Absorb
    is a really good ability for our CAP. It helps us set-up on the defensive Water-types we want to set up on since not only can they not Scald us (thus risking a burn), but they also can't Toxic us or do anything really (Politoed's best bet is to either Perish Song or Encore on a BD). The only Defensive Water-type I can think of that gives us troubles with Water Absorb is Jellicent because of Will-O-Wisp (Which is pretty common on Jellicent), Rotom-W (Which we want to threaten us anyways with its Electric STAB and Will-O-Wisp) and maybe Roar Vaporeon (which is less common, but still a thing to watch out for). Meanwhile, it also lets up set-up on Choiced Water-type attacks, much like we can already set-up on Choiced Ground attacks. Of course, that's hypothetical, I doubt the opponent would spam Water-moves knowing that CAP is waiting in the wings to set-up on it. Water Absorb also has the benefit of giving us a nice HP boost, which isn't as helpful as it sounds, considering we get the HP before the Belly Drum. However, it does let us heal off hazard damage on the switch, which is nice. Overall, I think Water Absorb is an extremely good choice for our CAP.

    Another ability to consider is Gluttony. It is a very versatile ability for our CAP, due to the fact that it can both be used to help us against more defensive teams with a Sitrus Berry, or help us become faster with a Salac Berry. Usually these berries would activate at 1/4 HP, thus making us have less health (Sitrus) or needing to get extra speed somehow (Salac). However, with Gluttony, we can simply use Belly Drum and activate any berry we want. This gives us the +6 +1 on the BD Speed Boost gives us without making us unrevengable. Meanwhile, the fact that it is one-time only isn't important, because BD is also a one-time set-up. Gluttony Salac, in my eyes, is a much more balanced version of Unburden for our CAP. On the other side, Sitrus Berry lets us sit at a comfortable 75% after a Belly Drum, assuming we have taken no prior damage. This helps us take weaker attacks that normally would of crippled us at 50%.

    EDIT: I don't understand Sitrus Berry apperantly. I still think Gluttony is good though.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
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  7. Nyktos

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    I just want to point out since it seems a couple people are unclear on this: Sitrus activates at 50%. Gluttony does nothing to it.
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  8. srk1214

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    I'm incredibly on the fence about the ability stage.

    Here's my conundrum: It is undeniable that CAP 6 needs some help. Belly Drum isn't all that viable in OU for a reason, and it's not just that Linoone and Charizard stink. Sacrificing 50% of your HP is a huge gamble that, barring unusual circumstances, doesn't normally play out well. CAP 6 obviously will need some help ensuring set up is possible. We didn't pick the most optimal typing for this, but it is passably suitable. The next best spot to ensure set up is here. Not in Stats. Generally better bulk than we would otherwise give, in order to ease set up, is a BAD thing, since it also affects revengeability and general utility of CAP 6 that don't use Belly Drum. So if it's not clear how we set up out of Typing, and Stats isn't the best spot... This is where we have to make our stand on set-up opportunities, imo.

    To me, this throws out abilities like Unburden or Gluttony that are trying to boost power after the set-up. We still have an issue with how we set up in the first place, and we must address that here and now.

    Options that are more appealing to me include Limber, Shield Dust, Soundproof (or Suction Cups), Quick Feet, Guts, and Wonder Skin

    Basically these sorts of abilities make setting up on Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Hippowdon, Jellicent, Skarmory, etc more possible.

    I'm not sold on any type-chart altering abilities just yet, and obviously they are stronger than all these abilities.
  9. SotheBlacKnight

    SotheBlacKnight

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    I'm definitely in favor of Regenerator; it would allow CAP6 to come and go more freely especially after setting up Belly Drum, thus allowing it to escape revenge killers and set up later.
    I do also like the sound of Quick Feet and Heatproof for either nullifying paralysis or it's fire weakness. Gluttony would also be nice for Salac Berry and Acrobatics.
    I feel that Motor Drive might be a little too good for this poke though.
  10. uwnim

    uwnim

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    I feel that our ability should help us set up. It would be rather easy to adjust how well we do after a drum with stats and movepool, so there is no need to use an ability for that.

    Suction Cups shouldn't be used because Skarm is apparently supposed to be a check and its best option is to whirlwind CAP 6 out. Soundproof would be fine since it stops Roar and Perish Song, but not Whirlwind.

    Water Absorb could be useful. It would make it easier to set up on defensive water types since CAP 6 would be immune to their Scalds and regain health. Rotom Wash has electric moves, so it would still be able to check.
  11. Clankenator007

    Clankenator007

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    After using Belly Drum Melloetta-P in Balanced Hackmons (a metagame where you can give any pokemon almost any ability and any moveset) for a few weeks I've seen that being able to attempt a belly drum sweep multiple times in a match rather than putting all your chips down on a single set-up attempt is always better, even if that one opportunity is a really good one. At 50% hp there is too much that can go wrong even if you have that massive attack stat. I'd say that an ability that provides reliable recovery, such as Regenerator or Poison Heal or something along those lines is better than an ability that helps you set up only once. ( I was running Scrappy along side Recover to break through Giratina but that was a metagame specific choice, if I could use that Meloetta-P in OU I'd run a healing ability over it hands-down)
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Ok, time to clear some things out about Motor Drive. Motor Drive won't help us sweep better. Why? Let's take a look at the list of OU Pokemon that commonly (based on the last moveset usage stats) use Electric moves:
    • Ferrothorn (Thunder Wave)
    • Latios (Thunderbolt and Thunder)
    • Jirachi (Thunder, Thunderbolt, and Thunder Wave)
    • Starmie (Thunder and Thunderbolt)
    • Rotom-W (Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Thunder Wave)
    • Gengar (Thunderbolt)
    • Forretress (Volt Switch)
    • Celebi (Thunder Wave)
    • Jolteon (Volt Switch, Thunder, and Thunderbolt)
    • Thundurus-T (Volt Switch, Thunder, and Thunderbolt)
    • Blissey (Thunder Wave)
    • Kyurem-B (Fusion Bolt) Forgot about Terravolt
    Let's look at each of those pokes individually... Latios, Starmie, Rotom-W, Gengar, Thundurus-T, and Kyurem-B can all do 50% damage or more to us with moves other than Electric, meaning that the immunity won't really matter at all, unless we take the Electric move on the switch, something very unlikely and risky as all those Pokemon can deal enough damage to make the CAP useless if we predict wrong. You just don't take such risks with your final, one-time sweeper. Then we have mostly defensive Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, SpD Jirachi, Forretress, Celebi, and Blissey. And i want to ask, who serious and sane player would spam Electric moves with those Pokemon when the CAP can get to +6 Atk / +1 Spe and use them as setup bait when it gets in? This just won't happen, at all. Finally, Jolteon and SubCM Jirachi are the only Pokemon left that haven't been addressed. Out of those two, Jirachi will be much more likely to spam Sub instead of Thunder, in order to 2HKO the CAP with Flash Cannon if it decides to switch in, and Jolteon will be able to 2HKO the CAP with HP Ice. So, Motor Drive isn't enhancing our sweep because catching an Electric move on the switch will be almost impossible against competent players.

    Now that this has been hopefully established, let's see the positives of Motor Drive as well. Motor Drive increases our setup chances by making Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, SpD Jirachi, Forretress, Blissey, Celebi, and Jolteon almost completely harmless. It also slightly discourages the spamming of Volt Switch, even though the CAP wouldn't want to switch into any of the main Volt Switch abusers, aside from Jolteon, for reasons that i already mentioned. However, it is important to note that most of those Pokemon have alternative ways to cripple the CAP. For example, Celebi can just use Perish Song and make sure that the CAP will be forced out before it manages to do too much damage, Jirachi can just use Body Slam, and Ferrothorn can potentially stall out or at least put into priority revenge kill range the CAP with the combo of Leech Seed + Protect + Iron Barbs. This means that only Jolteon, Blissey, and Forretress will be guaranteed setup targets.

    The conclusion is that Motor Drive is a useful ability for the CAP that has the sole purpose of helping the CAP to setup. Imo, it is useful but not useful enough, because as i already mentioned its uses are somewhat limited and not big enough for a primary ability. For this reason i would like much more to see this ability as a secondary ability.

    Now let's take a look at some abilities that i really like:

    Unburden

    Imo, Unburden is the best ability for this CAP. We have already talked about how we can't make a successful Belly Drum sweeper that will be easily revenge killed by scarfers and Unburden is the best solution to this problem. Sitrus will already be one of the best items for the CAP imo (let's face it the CAP will need all the extra help it can to setup and avoid dying from priority) and Unburden is the perfect fit for this item. With Unburden and the right Speed stat we can totally control by what we want to be outsped at +2 and we can focus more on threatening offensive teams, which i think is a better approach. We could even use some HP EVs to help the CAP setup if Speed won't be a concern at +2. And yeah i am saying this because i don't believe at all that outspeeding every scarfer at +2 will be a bad thing. Venusaur in the sun outspeeds every relevant scarfer in OU and if we don outspeed this thing at +2 then we just cant sweep against sun offense teams, which is bad. So i am ok with giving to the CAP an actually good Speed stat that may even let it invest some EVs in HP.

    As for the concern that the CAP might be unstoppable with +6 Atk and +2 Spe i have to say three things: priority, setting up against offense won't be easy, and Pokemon that wall us exist. Even if we manage to setup against offensive teams, the CAP will very likely be weakened to the point that it can be revenge killed by the right priority users (Mamoswine and Breloom). So, we would need to remove those Pokemon before we could sweep unhindered. And teams with solid defensive cores can just deal with the CAP with Pokemon such as Skarmory, Jirachi, and Heatran, which as long as they are healthy enough can easily stop the CAP even at +6, provided we don't give it the necessary coverage moves to easily get past those Pokemon. And finally, Magnezone always exists. This means that even with Unburden, there will be enough ways to deal with the CAP to prevent it from being even remotely close to broken and i think that Unburden fits to the concept like a glove.

    Intimidate

    Intimidate solves almost any setup problem that the CAP would have against offensive teams. Pokemon such as CB Dragonite locked into Outrage, DD Dragonite, Fire Blast-less Garchomp, CB Scizor, +1 Scarf Salamence (it kills something and then we setup on it), Choice Scarf Terrakion, and SD Toxicroak can be easily setup on, giving to the CAP just the right space it needs to sweep offensive teams. Here are some calcs, assuming Intimidate, 4 HP EVs, and Keldeo-like bulk (typing of Keldeo changed to Steel / Flying obviously):
    • -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 120-142 (37.03 - 43.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 136-160 (41.97 - 49.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • -1 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 107-126 (33.02 - 38.88%) -- 99.95% chance to 3HKO
    • +1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage (Garchomps sets up SD as we setup Belly Drum) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 161-189 (49.69 - 58.33%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 157-185 (48.45 - 57.09%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
    • 252 Atk Salamence Outrage (the +1 boost is gone from Intimidate) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 110-130 (33.95 - 40.12%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • -1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 144-169 (44.44 - 52.16%) -- 15.23% chance to 2HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 110-133 (33.95 - 41.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    And while some of those calcs may not seem so impressive, after you factor in Sitrus Berry which activates immediately after you use Belly Drum and puts you at 75%, you will find that Intimidate is just what the CAP needs in terms of setup chances.

    Of 'course, the most obvious problem with this ability is going to be that it's an excellent all around ability that can transform even not so bulky Pokemon such as Landorus-T into defensive titans. Let me make a comparison of the CAP with Intimidate and Keldeo-like bulk and Landorus-T. What are the traits that make Landorus-T such an excellent pivot and all around check to physically offensive Pokemon? Its excellent typing which doesn't leave it with any common physical weakness and gives it many invaluable physical resistances (Fighting, Bug, and Ground), Intimidate coupled with its decent physical bulk, its gargantuan Atk stat which allows it to not only wall but also threaten back, and finally its movepool that consists of useful utility moves such as U-turn and Stealth Rock. Which of those traits will the CAP that i talked about have? Will it have the right moves to support its team (hazards, U-turn, phazing)? Unlikely for a Pokemon with a sweeping role. Will it have moves that will help it last longer (healing moves). Unlikely as well for the same reason. Will it at least have a big enough Atk stat to not easily become a setup target when taking a defensive role? Very unlikely as with Belly Drum we wouldn't want any Atk stat bigger than 100, as it would eliminate the concept of counters and would be overkill anyway. It won't even have a strong reliable STAB with good super effective coverage like Landorus-T does (EQ). The only necessary traits that the CAP can realistically have if we choose to give it Intimidate will be a good defensive typing and decent physical bulk. And as most of you i am sure can understand, those two things are not nearly enough to create a good defensive Pokemon or offensive/defensive pivot, meaning the the CAP has little to no fear of derailing from its concept with Intimidate.

    Water Absorb / Storm Drain

    Those two abilities are all around awesome and let us setup on many Water-types such as choiced Politoed, Tentacruel, defensive Starmie, choiced Keldeo, Gyarados, and even defensive Politoed, Vaporeon, and Jellicent if we carry Taunt (to shut down Perish Song / Encore / WoW / Roar). Obvious increase in setup chances and easier time against rain teams. However, it is an inferior option to Intimidate imo, because it helps us wall Pokemon that are irrelevant with our typing, unlike Indimidate, which helps us setup on the exact Pokemon that our typing suggests. Water Absorb and Storm Drain also help equally against offensive and defensive Pokemon (take a look at the list of Pokemon i mentioned and you will see that the offensive Pokemon are almost equal in numbers with the defensive) while Intimidate focuses more on giving us setup chances against offensive Pokemon, which is what we really need right now as we already have plenty of setup chances against defensive Pokemon.

    Thick Fat

    Thick Fat greatly increases the list of Pokemon we can setup on, especially against offensive teams. With the right stats and EV investment, taking attacks such as Fire Blast from Garchomp, Fire Punch from Dragonite, and Fire Blast from Salamence for less than 50% is entirely possible. Here is the list of Pokemon that Thick Fat helps us setup against:
    • Dragonite
    • Tyranitar (support set)
    • Garchomp
    • Salamence
    • Celebi (offensive Celebi with HP Fire)
    • Espeon (HP Fire)
    • Mamoswine (the one with Stealth Rock)
    • Venusaur
    • Latias (CM sets with HP Fire as well as Surf-less offensive variants)
    Of 'course most of those Pokemon are not guaranteed set ups and we will need to first scout their sets to see if they have another move that could hurt us but the major benefits are still there. Most of those Pokemon are found on offensive teams and being able to setup on them, even half or 1/4 of the time is very beneficial. Not to mention that Thick Fat could be further enhanced by Drizzle support. Oh, and it also removes Mamoswine as a revenge killer, which will be very useful when we don't have a Speed boosting ability.

    Also, there shouldn't be any concerns about the CAP taking the defensive route with such a good set of resistances (becoming the perfect Dragon counter and similar and such stuff). And why is this? First, the CAP won't have the necessary bulk to take more than two hits from the offensive powerhouses that are the Dragon-types of OU and it won't have that kind of bulk because it is meant to be a sweeper. Second, the CAP doesn't need support, pivoting, or healing moves such as entry hazards, U-turn, Roost, and phazing as they don't fit at all with its role as a sweeper. This means that the CAP will have zero tools to function as a defensive pivot and/or wall other than its typing, which means zero worries of derailing from its role.

    Finally, even though Thick Fat offers solid advantages, imo it's in the same boat with Motor Drive (but better). It just doesn't offer enough to warrant our primary ability slot and for this reason i would prefer to see it as a secondary ability. I just mentioned it in case all the other abilities i wanted didn't made it to the slate or just weren't popular enough.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  13. pipasonze

    pipasonze

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    I think that we should choose an ability that protects cap6 from status, because if it is burned, paralized or put to sleep after drumming it becomes almost completely useless. The best options are poison heal (when toxic orb activates, user is immune to all status) and wonder skin (it cant reliably switch in, but the opponent will probably think twice before using a 37.5% accurate WoW. If we give cap6 priority, i think guts could also be used.
  14. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    I am 100%, without a doubt, against Volt Absorb and Motor Drive. Same goes for any ability that gives us another type immunity. Our list of what should threaten us is already all over the place, and pretty much the only non-varying thing on the list was Electric type Pokemon. I don't want this thing to turn into "well you see I don't actually have a list of reasonable counters, I just have a bunch of Pokemon that counter me when they do this but then become super weak to other stuff so I don't really have any counters" because that's what it'll turn into. Remember Aurumoth? It was supposed to be a risk based mon, just like Belly Drum is. Look how that turned out. I promise you this, any ability messing with the type chart will do the same (especially Electric immunities).

    With that said, I do see the good intentions behind the abilities, which is why I much rather prefer Quick Feet and Regenerator. If the voting started tomorrow, I'd vote for Quick Feet simply because it is basically our safest way to be sure of beating defensive pokemon rather than revenge killers. Quick feet also makes the opponent pay for using Scald, which I think would be very good for CAP6, essentially making them have the same scenario where they have to rely on Focus Blast not missing to beat you. Rendering a move useless on the opponent is good for set-up opportunities for CAP6 too, so that's also a plus.

    Regenerator relieves some of the need for bulk, making CAP6 somewhat manageable again so it would hopefully balance it out and allows for Belly Drum to be used again. I think the latter point alone makes it worthy of a slate spot for the ability.

    Other abilities I don't prefer but don't see the harm in with minimal comments:
    • Suction Cups/Soundproof: #1 way to make a Belly Drummer ragequit is phazing. This makes Belly Drum actually useful.
    • Poison Heal: Pretty much a combination of Quick Feet and Regenerator, but more of a poor man's version if you get what I mean
    • Limber/Guts: Yeah sure dude status sucks
    • Gluttony: I don't really see how +1 Speed is going help because priority and scarfers but sure
    • Wonder Skin/Shed Skin: Once again goes along with the no status thing, but still think Quick Feet actually completely punishes the use of status moves, while Wonder Skin only slightly discourages it and Shed Skin doesn't actually do anything to punish the opponent besides being a psuedo-hydration rest combo
    • Static/etc.: 30% isn't reliable, I think it's better off as a secondary ability but again I'm not opposed to it
    Abilities I do not like at all because of other reasons than type immunity:
    • Magic Guard: Stop. Magic Guard can easily turn CAP6 from Belly Drum user into Physical Alakazam, making it just another Focus Sash check-all mon, I personally would never use Belly Drum if it got this
    • Unburden: Pretty much makes CAP6 only weak to Priority and by priority I mean Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Aqua Jet coming off Choice Band users. No thank you.
    • Rattled (or weak armor for that matter): Again, I don't like the whole speed boosting thing, especially not something that has the potential to boost it to unreasonable amounts whereas Gluttony does not
    • Filter/Solid Rock: Really, making this thing a lot better typing-wise is not going to be good...
    • Rock Head: I mean I really only don't like this because I don't think wasting an ability making us be able to use Brave Bird instead of Drill Peck is a good idea
    • Serene Grace: Having this just ensures I would never use this CAP for Belly Drum.
    Seriously, do not mess with the type chart on this one. It's a horrible idea.
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  15. SubwayJ

    SubwayJ

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    Although I don't know which ability I currently favour, there are a few abilities getting significant discussion that I'd like to comment on.


    Quick Feet and Guts I both am in strong opposition against. For either to activate, you'll either need a Burn or Paralysis (or Sleep+Sleep Talk, but that's not likely). Even with the abilities, those status conditions will greatly inhibit our CAP's usefulness and limit the chances of using the Drum successfully.

    With a burn, and either Quick Feet or Guts, you make Belly Drum a worse setup move than it already is. Assuming Stealth Rock is up, you have 4 turns (including your Drumming turn) to use CAP6. It may let you get one or two more OHKOs or outspeed some extra things, but the negatives far outweigh the positives here.

    With paralysis, you're in an even worse boat. In the case of Quick Feet, I don't care if you outspeed a +6 Tailwinded 252+Spe Deoxys-S who somehow got Unburden, a 25% chance of doing absolutely nothing is going to get you killed. When you have, at best, 50% of your total health to work with, almost anything has a chance to kill you, meaning if you get fully paralyzed even once, chances are you'll be dead or very close to it.


    I currently am neutral on the topic of type immunity abilities. They would most certainly allow for more setup opportunities, but I'm not sure if they're the best option we have. If an immunity ability were to be selected however, Motor Drive would be the most beneficial in my eyes, as it removes a key weakness, and removes the crippling nature of Thunder Wave users.


    Unburden, I'd say would be a very strong tool in the hands of CAP6, but as previously stated, you get one chance (not that belly drum doesn't always do that, but other abilities are a bit more forgiving). It would certainly be powerful, but I am unsure if I think it's what would be best at the moment.


    Wonder Skin, Shed Skin and Regenerator have gotten a little less discussion, and while I think could be potentially useful, they all have their downsides. Wonder Skin and Shed Skin, both have the obvious downside in not having 100% activation, and while extremely useful if they activate, the threat of them being useless is too great. Regenerator is good if we want more than one chance at Drumming, but setting up one Belly Drum will be difficult enough, your odds of getting two or more aren't looking great.


    Abilities I haven't mentioned here, I either don't have a strong enough opinion on yet, forgot about, or don't think they need responding to (see: Poison Heal).
    capefeather likes this.
  16. The Reptile

    The Reptile I can't think of a good custom title.
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    To everyone talking about Poison Heal, here's a friendly reminder that we are a Flying/Steel type, meaning that we cannot be poisoned.
  17. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    I think it's probably safe to say that CAP 6 is currently unable to setup against almost anything without either being crippled, phazed, or hit for a good chunk of damage. When looking at the defensive threats that were concluded at the end of the threats discussion, CAP 6 has the typing to boost up against are nearly all of them; however, basically all of them are equipped with status or phazing moves, which makes setting up against them near pointless. CAP 6 literally only threatens defensive Pokemon, meaning it needs to actually take advantage of that in order to Belly Drum safely. Low and behold, we hit the ability stage where we can make this happen. Now, I want to make something clear here. There are two types of abilities we have to consider for the success of this concept: an ability to help set up and an ability to help sweep after setting up. I think putting the user in a position of "Do I want CAP 6 to sweep more efficiently and give it setup opportunities through my teammates, or do I want my teammates to dispose of threatening revenge killers and give CAP 6 many opportunities to set up?" is great because it provides a little versatility in how one wants CAP 6 to operate on their team. Also, because using Belly Drum is going to be a really difficult thing to do within the OU metagame, CAP 6 seriously needs some amazing abilities to help it accomplish that task. I don't want to have the mentality some users have that's something along the lines of "we always give CAPs OP abilities, can we just give it something standard?" because if we give this something standard, the concept is very likely to fail. That's just how it is with a Pokemon based around the frowned upon move that is Belly Drum. With that said, I'm going to suggest an ability under each category that I think are suitable for the success of CAP 6.

    Ability to help CAP 6 set up: Magic Bounce

    I know some of you are already rolling your eyes, but quite honestly, Magic Bounce is probably the best ability CAP 6 should get in terms of providing setup opportunities for a number of reasons. Before I go on, though, some people will think it's too good and that CAP 6 will be more inclined to become a supporter Pokemon rather than a Belly Drum sweeper; however, I completely and utterly disagree with any statement as such. Let me tell you why:

    You can argue that Magic Bounce alone caused Xatu and Espeon to drastically shoot up in usage, which is undeniably true, and that they now primarily play a supporting role. First of all, Xatu was always used as a supporter, way before Magic Bounce even existed. The reason is because it actually has a decent support movepool; Thunder Wave, Wish, Roost, dual screens, and U-turn are probably the standouts. Espeon is the same way. Looking at its analysis, its top sets are dual screens and Calm Mind + Baton Pass; clearly, Magic Bounce makes Espeon a really good supporter because of its movepool (notice how those two sets are above the offensive set?). What this means is that CAP 6 pretty much has no place in being a support Pokemon because that's nowhere near what it's intended to do. If we give it status, recovery, and dual screen support, we're going against the concept. It will still remain as a Belly Drum sweeper because it has nothing else to even do. For example, let's say Lucario ended up getting Magic Bounce from the dream world. Will people actually use it as a support Pokemon, despite the fact that it has next to nothing to support its team with? Hell no. It's going to use that ability to further increase its Swords Dance setup opportunities to mop the floor clean. If we looked at something like Gyarados, though, obviously people will use it as a support Pokemon if they wanted to. It actually has the movepool to do so (Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, etc). So if you're concerned that Magic Bounce is going to push CAP 6 in a wrong direction, I honestly believe that is very unlikely if we aren't stupid further down the road. CAP 6 has no place to fulfill a supporting role, and if your opponent decides to use it as such, he just wasted a valuable teamslot and what could be the greatest setup sweeper in OU. Magic Bounce is a phenomenal ability, and CAP 6 needs a phenomenal ability if it wants to Belly Drum and sweep.

    Now, here are reasons why Magic Bounce is such a good ability for this particular concept. The defensive Pokemon that we are supposed to threaten are actually threatened. Hippowdon and Donphan can't Roar you away, Ferrothorn can't Leech Seed + Protect stall you, and Blissey and Celebi can't cripple you with Thunder Wave. Magic Bounce essentially prevents CAP 6 from getting shut down instantly by phazing and status, which is immensely helpful in setting up whilst remaining in a relatively healthy state. Scald burn is still possible, which is fine because CAP 6 probably doesn't want to set up against a Scald user anyway. You will also notice that Magic Bounce will no longer make Skarmory a declared counter ("If anything proposed in the rest of the process potentially alters the threat list, that fact should be made clear."), but I initially didn't want Skarmory as a counter from my Threats Discussion post because of how easily it can shut CAP 6 down just by switching in, either forcing CAP 6 out with Whirlwind or making it take up a moveslot to run Taunt. Next, Magic Bounce bounces back entry hazards. Although not necessary, it's helpful because it can potentially prevent Stealth Rock from being used, meaning CAP 6 can Belly Drum with 50% HP rather than 38% HP left. Also, the Spikes and Toxic Spikes that it may end up bouncing is great because it can potentially help CAP 6 weaken its checks and counters, making it an even bigger threat late-game.

    All in all, Magic Bounce is a beautiful ability to equip CAP 6 with because it gives it many additional opportunities to set up and prevents it from being shut down by status and phazing effects. It needs these opportunities and the status and phazing prevention, otherwise there really is no way CAP 6 can setup without taking a major beating in some way as far as I know.

    Ability to help CAP 6 sweep: Unburden

    This is a no-brainer. Unburden is quite simply the best ability there is to ensure CAP 6 isn't revenge killed by every Scarfer and Pokemon naturally faster than it. I'm not sure why people think it's such a broken ability because it really isn't. Unburden is a risky ability in that it only works once. This means that you have to be absolutely certain that it's time to bring CAP 6 out and hope for a sweep. If you screw it up, then that's your fault for not being careful with it. If you don't screw it up, then you should be rewarded with a near-guaranteed sweep. Furthermore, Belly Drum + Sitrus Berry + Unburden is a phenomenal combination, as it can leave CAP 6 with 75% HP maximum with +6 Attack and +2 Speed. Like I said before, CAP 6 really needs the best abilities out there because right now, it is not looking too bright. Also, Unburden isn't going to let you outpace everything and their mothers, it only doubles your Speed. Therefore, we can give it a Speed stat that prevents it from being unkillable after setting up. There isn't much else to say about this ability because it's obviously the best sweeping ability out there that CAP 6 would seriously benefit from.

    To summarize, CAP 6 needs the best abilities it can get because using Belly Drum in OU against all of these threatening Pokemon is so hard to do. Giving it crap like Motor Drive or Quick Feet is absurd because they are extremely situational and highly likely to make this concept a failure, or at least, 10x harder to make it work. In terms of an ability to increase opportunities to set up, Magic Bounce fits the bill perfectly. Bouncing back status, phazing, and entry hazards for a Belly Drum sweeper is amazing. On the other hand, Unburden is awesome for an ability to help CAP 6 after it Belly Drums by outpacing a plethora of threats and to potentially trade only 25% HP for +6 Attack and +2 Speed.

    Are these abilities overpowered? Yes. Does CAP need overpowered abilities? Yes. Why? Belly Drum.
  18. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    I like technician and adaptability so that we can custom tailor our CAP, giving him a few coverage moves for certain threats, but mainly keeping him weak when not using his Stabs.
  19. capefeather

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    Popular abilities so far:

    Gluttony
    Motor Drive
    Regenerator
    Unburden
    Volt Absorb
    Water Absorb

    Firstly, I'm confused by the Gluttony suggestion. In past stages, there was some clamouring for Normal typing and a lot of talk about Linoone. I get that. However, with every decision so far, it seems like we're decisively moving away from Linoone. I guess if people still like that angle despite being essentially defeated at concept assessment AND typing, then I guess you can still go for it. Just remember we're pretty far away from making Linoone++ at this point.

    Secondly, I'm siding with Nyktos and Fuzznip on Unburden, and this gets into the Threats Discussion and the threat lists at the end of it. I find it rather unfortunate that Pwnemon's opinions about the Threats Discussion are apparently the norm, because I think that there's more going on in the threat lists than people seem to appreciate. True, I didn't decisively pick a side (except I might have killed priority), but I don't think I needed to. Besides, the way I see it, the threats that are on the threat lists are more of a minimum than a maximum. In the end, I placed some restrictions on both sides. CAP 6 likely won't immediately tear through everything after a Belly Drum, but at the same time, there probably will be Speed-boosted revenge killers at the ready. In reality, there may be more walls against the final product than the Flying-resistant Steel-types I listed, and more revenge killers than the 110+ Scarfers... or there may not be.

    Shortly after the threat lists were posted, people suggested that I may have accounted for Unburden. Okay, I actually did account for the possibility of Unburden. I thought that Unburden was a discussion worth having in the primary ability discussion. If I didn't account for the possibility of Unburden, it would not have been possible to discuss it without running afoul of the notion of Choice Scarf revenge killing. The way the list is set up now, we could potentially have base 70 Speed Unburden. We could also have base 109 Speed Motor Drive or, god forbid, Motor Drive at a lower Speed so that the likes of Keldeo, Terrakion and Thundurus Therian revenge kill CAP 6.

    Speaking of which, do people want CAP 6 to be revenge killed by Choice Scarf Pokemon or not? I'm confused by what appears to be some people taking both sides of that question. I get that some people aren't sure of whether there even is a balance between always being revenge killed and never being revenge killed in the case of CAP 6, but please just say that instead of contradicting yourself.

    One thing that makes Unburden hard to talk about is its unpredictability. Unburden CAP 6 might rip through Heatran with Flying Gem, or evade some revenge killers with Sitrus Berry. That much I couldn't satisfactorily account for in the Threats Discussion without explicitly poll-jumping. Keep in mind, though, that CAP 6 can only do one of these things, with one of these items. Unpredictability is a very legitimate reason to be wary of Unburden, but at the same time, it complicates situations that people have been oversimplifying.

    There's not much to say about the other abilities since it's pretty clear what each of them are aiming at I'm skeptical of their overall effectiveness, but they're there.

    As a final note, I think people really need to find out what Quick Feet actually does and does not do before suggesting it.
  20. Torkoals

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    After reading recent comments. I still hold that Suction Cups is a viable ability. The main point of this CAP is too use Belly Drum, and without the abilty to do that, this CAP is useless. Soundproof, mentioned a few times as an ability that could block roar, still doesn't address the problem of Skarmory switching in and whirlwinding it out. However, two other abilites also seem to stand out as possibilities: Quick Feet, and Filter.

    Quick Feet causes what would otherwise ruin this CAP's chances of sweeping to make the CAP truly able to sweep, by boosting its speed by 50%. Paralysis wouldn't cause the speed drop that often cripples sweepers, and though burn would bring along its attack drop, the added speed would allow for at least a few hits to land.
    Filter seems to be a better option than Heatproof or Motor Drive, as instead of bringing the CAP's weaknesses down to one and giving the CAP a boost, (Which i fear could make it too OP), or simply weakening the power of one super effective attack, Filter gives the CAP a chance to survive a super effective attack, and then at least fire off one attack of its own. Plus, with an ability like Filter, the CAP doesn't require as high defenses and can focus more on EV investment in speed, which it needs to be effective
    EDIT: I just realized, though Arghonaut is weak to one of this CAP's STABS, it could run Unaware and could carry Roar, another reason to endorse Suction Cups for this CAP.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    @Fuzznip

    Magic Bounce is definitely one of the abilities that improves our chances of setting up the most, alongside with Intimidate, Water Absorb, and Storm Drain. It also allows the CAP to use a max HP / max Atk spread with Lefties in order to become the ultimate stall destroyer that cockblocks many stallish Pokemon early-game (Hippo, Skarm, Ferro, Gliscor, Celebi) without losing almost any life and doesn't care about hazards because it prevents them and goes for the sweep with Belly Drum in the late game, where its counters have been sufficiently weakened.

    However, there is a big risk of turning the CAP into an anti-hazard Pokemon with Magic Bounce. Assuming only 90 / 80 physical bulk on the CAP (which is the least it should have if it wants to find legitimate set up chances against more offensive teams), with a spread of 252 HP / 252 Def + and Lefties, it is able to fuck up a ton of defensive Pokemon and completely shut them down even without recovery or utility moves or even any big Atk stat. Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, Gliscor, Donphan, and Celebi are completely walled and unable to lay down hazards, meaning that you just shut down stall's main source of damage. Put a little Wish support and the CAP can even switch into stuff such as SR Landorus-T and SR Garchomp in rain and cripple them with Toxic (a move that every Pokemon gets). What i want to say is that it's very easy for the CAP to lose focus when all it needs to completely shut down most forms of entry hazards is its typing, decent physical bulk, and Magic Bounce. Notice how i didn't take into consideration any move in order to deal with those Pokemon, the only two moves that the CAP needs to deal with it already has them (Hidden Power Fire and Toxic, which all Pokemon get). I don't know how we could address this problem aside from making sure that the Belly Drum set will be good enough to outclass the defensive set most of the time, i just wanted to inform about the potential danger Magic Bounce carries.
  22. Fuzzie

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    After running a couple tests in Showdown with Hackmons, I have realized how much potential Regenerator gives us for a second Belly Drum. Belly Drum drops the CAP down to half life, which then procs it to eat the Sitrus Berry, leaving it at 3/4 health. In all of my tests, the opponent opened with either a status inflicting move such as Will-O-Wisp or Toxic, or a set up move such as Bulk Up or Spikes (Unless they had a super effective move, which cremated me). If you follow this Belly Drum with a Baton Pass, not only can you pass off your boosted experience to the next Pokemon you send out, but you are also back at full health. Next time you send the CAP out, he will be at full health again, ready for a second Belly Drum. Giving him Regenerator would encourage a Baton Pass switchout, while giving him an ability such as Motor Drive or Unburden would encourage leaving you in the battle, trying to do as much damage as possible before fainting. For that reason, I am against Regenerator.

    An ability that I feel has not been described enough is Technician. The original concept for CAP 6 was for him to use some of those unused moves that have great use. While no damaging moves were used as examples in the original concept, there are some great low damage moves such as Sky Drop, Bullet Punch, and people opt for those moves with 100% accuracy over those that never miss, such as Aerial Ace and Faint Attack since their base power is too little. There are many underused low power moves that are only ever really used by Scizor. If this Pokemon was given an ability like Technician, I am certain that these low power physical moves will be some of his first choices.
  23. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    The thing is, there is literally nothing CAP 6 can do back to them. Using Toxic can only get you so far with the plethora of Steel-types waiting in the wings. Therefore, you take this perfect opportunity to Belly Drum and go to town. Also, the idea of early-game Magic Bounce support by bouncing hazards and prevent phazing and then late-game Belly Drum sweeping with status and phazing protection is excellent. Lastly, there's nothing stopping you from using a defensive Belly Drum set. This is far superior than running Toxic as your only means of doing significant damage.
  24. Scoopapa

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    I don't really like the idea of Magic Bounce, lets not forget that Espeon and Xatu have crap defensives and mediocre-to-crap defensive typings. Most of the support moves they use are at least in part to make sure they don't die horribly before you have a chance to remove the pokemon whose support moves you want to check (i.e. boost defenses, baton pass out of danger). A Steel/Flying-type with even mediocre defenses is not going to have to be so paranoid about dying horribly with defensive investment and Magic Guard. Denying enemy hazards while setting up your own is something that people already devote entire teamslots to, and Magic Guard does this just by switching in; we don't need a great support movepool to make it work. STAB/Toxic/Protect or even RestTalk would be sufficient given that we have an excellent defensive type that shuts down many hazard-laying threats on its own. Magic Guard would even encourage us to switch in on hazard layers that we don't beat 1v1, just to make sure we can weaken them and prevent them from ever laying hazards (like trading Drill Pecks for Stone Edges with Landorus-T) which would obviously distract from a sweep.

    Edit: @Fuzznip When it comes to Hippowdon/Ferrothorn/Forretress/Skarmory/Gliscor/Donphan/Celebi saying you can do literally nothing is quite an exaggeration. In fact, you can beat most of them 1v1 (even if it would require a lot of patience for some). This means you could force most of them to switch after blocking their hazards (possibly getting some of your own in the process), thus being a successful Magic Guard supporter and accomplishing things that Espeon really can't. Hippowdon and Donphan get Poisoned, while Celebi gets worn down quickly by Flying STAB or even Poison if you just want to force it out. Forretress will eventually get worn down by repeated attacks, too. Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Gliscor present a bigger problem, as though they can't kill you, they can try to spam Stealth Rock to PP stall you into switching and eventually get their hazards anyway. However, if Skarm or Thorn are using Spikes they can't really do this and expect to come out on top of the exchange. Ferrothorn could be worn down from repeated attacks if it tries this unless our STAB doesn't do as much as Iron Barbs, but you might have to stall it of Gyro Ball PP then wear it down if Gyro Ball + Iron Barbs is too much. Gliscor is in a similar boat as it will eventually be forced to dedicate some turns to recovery, which you can use to switch to something that forces it out. Skarmory with Stealth Rock is the only one that really comes out on top of the exchange, as it can just sit there spamming and likely win any ensuing PP war, while taking little from your attacks. This is all assuming you have only your STABs and Toxic. I know that these situations are not likely to actually play out, but the fact that they are possible and favorable to CAP6 puts the pressure on your opponent to switch out.

    I don't want to be an alarmist, but this idea of "wow, Belly Drum sucks we need overpowered stuff to make it work" reminds me a lot of "wow, Bug/Psychic sucks, we need overpowered stuff to make it work", which was a sentiment that showed up repeatedly in every stage of the Aurumoth project. I'm not about to use this as a catch-all excuse against any ability I think would be overpowered, but when the reasoning put forth is exactly my first quotation, then I think it is worth pointing out.

    Let's also not forget that we don't need to solve every forseen issue with Bellymon in the ability stage. If something could be easily patched up with a move, for instance, then it isn't so imperative that the ability cover it and everything else, too.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  25. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    Well, first of all, you can't assume that you're always going to be denying enemy hazards. It may seem that way on paper, but it's far from the truth in practice. Magic Bounce will simply cause the opponent to think twice about whether or not he should go for the Stealth Rock, attack, or double switch to a CAP 6 counter. Therefore, you're putting CAP 6 at risk as well if you choose to play this route. Also, you're not setting up your own hazards either. You have to switch out CAP 6 to a hazard layer before that because it's not getting any entry hazard moves; this gives time for your opponent to muster up something as well. Next, CAP 6 has next to nothing to offer as a support Pokemon. Xatu and Espeon at least have tools to be remotely effective supporters; Espeon is even seen using offensive Life Orb sets. Honestly, you pretty much do need a decent support movepool to make Magic Bounce really good on this particular CAP. Despite it's decent defensive typing, it has next to nothing to offer. Nothing. You tell me, are you honestly going to go with such an atrocious Toxic/Protect stalling set or a more horrible RestTalk set, knowing full well that this CAP is not going to be bulky, rather than taking advantage of Belly Drum? Magic Bounce provides ample opportunities to set up against a plethora of threats. The defensive Pokemon we are supposed to beat are not beaten without Magic Bounce. Without it, we will be phazed and we will be crippled with status. Also, who even cares if CAP 6 is used defensively? It will still use Belly Drum + 3 attacks because it has nothing else to do. Potentially preventing hazards/phazing early-game and then, when the circumstances are in place, Belly Drum sweeping late-game with the same Pokemon is a wonderful thing.

    I wasn't here for Aurumoth, but for CAP 6, we have to have this kind of mentality. We're dealing with Belly Drum, one of the most frowned upon stat boosting moves out there due to its number of flaws. If you want this to work in OU, we're not talking about NU, in OU, CAP 6 needs the best of the best. We can't resort to anything situational or limiting because that would have a good chance at making this CAP a failure due to the nature of how difficult Belly Drum + sweep is to pull off.
    Andrew and nyttyn like this.
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