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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Poll 2

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by darkie, Dec 11, 2008.

?

which secondary ability?

  1. No Secondary Ability

    56.6%
  2. Shockproof

    28.3%
  3. No Guard

    15.1%
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  1. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
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    This is our Pokémon:
    Type: Water / Fight
    Ability: Unaware / ???
    With a -20 to 0 Style Bias (Slightly defensive), a 0 to 20 Build Bias (slightly physical), and a Very Good (300 to 419) Stat Rating.

    For the record, the current top 10 on the CAP server are:
    1. Stratagem
    2. Revenankh
    3. Fidgit
    4. Tyranitar
    5. Zapdos
    6. Syclant
    7. Blissey
    8. Heatran
    9. Scizor
    10. Pyroak

    These are your options:
    No Secondary Ability
    Shockproof
    No Guard
  2. Zerix

    Zerix

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    No Secondary Ability Again, there is no reason for one. Unaware would become the staple anyhow. Shockproof doesn't make sense and it pushing the idea of decentralization a little too far. We don't need it to check every single one of the top five. No Guard could be interesting, but it is unnecessary.
  3. dmlaw

    dmlaw

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    No secondary ability, primarily to stop Shockproof, which is wholly ridiculous.
  4. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

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    Voted No Secondary Ability.

    I think Shockproof is a bad idea because:

    - Offensive Zapdos variants can still 2HKO several submitted stat spreads with Thunderbolt
    - Zapdos still has Super Effective Flying STAB, plus other reasons why it is a viable STAB to use
    - It does not give CAP6 a means to check Zapdos
    - It was created solely to allow CAP6 to check Zapdos
    - It is contrived and looks very random to have an Electric resist Ability on a Water/Fighting pokemon
    - It will draw criticisms of fanboyism from other Smogoners and anyone who thinks that Water/Fighting pokemon shouldn't have an Electric resist
    - If chosen, it will likely sway the Art Poll towards submissions like Atyroki's which have aspects that could explain the weird Ability (this is very unfair on the other artists)
    - It is inherently inferior to Unaware.

    No Guard puts Machamp out of business.
  5. Kamen Rider

    Kamen Rider

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    Voted for No secoundary ability. I agree that No Guard is really Machamps only advantage over other fighters and giving it to a pokemon with an improved Stab combo and the potential to have another amazing ability will just remove Machamp from consideration unless you really want a dynamic punch user (and if this got that as well than there is no reason to use Machamp)

    As for Shockproof, I know a lot of people have argued about needing it so it can check every one of the top 5, but the concept never called for that, all the concepts asks for is a majority and I think 4/5 is a pretty good accomplishment. Plus it doesnt really check Zapdos and outside of Rotom, it really hinders the rest of the OU electrics, which goes against the core concept part about decentralization.
  6. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    Machamp has 130 attack, Dynamicpunch, Guts which allows it to not worry about status much while increasing it's massive attack stat. I don't see how saying "put _____ out of business" is a vaild excuse to not have something. =/
  7. rippersteveM5

    rippersteveM5

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    No Secondary Ability, the other two abilities aren't really all that appealing. CAP6 doesn't need 2 decentralising abilities.
  8. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

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    Saying that Machamp has Another Ability is pointless - this will put No Guard Machamp out of business. Who's to say whether this will get Dynamicpunch or not.

    Some stat spreads are well over 100 Attack, thats high anyway. Plus the fact that it's a CAP means it will automatically be used more that other pokes.

    If you want another reason that I didn't vote No Guard - it brings alot of disadvantages for a few not that important advantages.
  9. Lawman

    Lawman

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    Voted for No secondary ability for reasons stated in this thread and others. I am not going to repeat information others have clearly stated already, but I agree with jagged's arguements against Shockproof amongst others.
  10. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    I prefer hearing the disadvantages and advantages on why Pokemon A should/shouldn't get Ability B over the whole X is taking Y's job since we already did replace certain pokemon with others in pervious projects. Revenankh put Dusknoir out of job months ago as bulky ghost Pokemon. Fidgit slightly told Nidoqueen and a few other support Pokemon to take a hike when it comes to defensive toxic spikers/general supporter. A CAP pokemon removing an already existing pokemon is tragdey and all, but that's part of the program. So maybe we don't replace Champ's duties now but one day we will. Just you wait and see.
  11. ferron

    ferron

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    not to mention that near none of the 100+ Atk builds are truly bulky enough to make no guard as good as it could be.

    p.s.- voted nsa

    edit @g_t- its not just about replacing machamp for me, its more about me not seeing how no guard is gonna help check the top 10
  12. ParadOxymoron

    ParadOxymoron

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    Go, No Secondary Ability!

    - Having a type combination that's been used in Pokemon before (Fidgit, Poison/Ground)
    - Using the same type twice (Revenankh and this, Fighting)
    - Making a mono-type Pokemon (Stratagem, Rock)
    - Making a mono-ability Pokemon (this, Unaware)

    After No Secondary Ability wins this poll, we'll have made all these checks! Which I really think make this a less-fanboyish project.
  13. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    Guys, we shouldn't give CAP6 no secondary ability simply because it might be 'outclassed' by Unaware. Unaware is, without a doubt, the best ability for this pokemon, allowing it to effectively check the threats we designed it to and be a real team player. So why must it have only one ability? For example, all that No Guard does is make Cross Chop, Hydro Pump and Blizzard fully accurate moves (we don't have to give it Dynamicpunch to make No Guard viable). It increases the pokemon's offensive potential by that tiny little bit.

    But it does come at a massive cost - Heatran's Fire Blast will never miss, Tyranitar's Stone Edge will never miss, even things like Hypnosis and Will-O-Wisp will never miss against it. Blissey can Sing it to sleep, or Thunder it. No Guard is obviously an inferior ability defensively to Unaware, but it still has its uses on an offensive set that aims to make use of CAP6's excellent dual STAB.

    I would much rather have one very useful ability and one not so very useful ability, than not have the choice of a secondary ability at all. What harm will having No Guard do?

    LR.
  14. Frosty

    Frosty ._.
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    I've voted for No Secondary Ability. There is no sense in giving it an ability that it won't use. It will only be a waste of time and space and a unnecessary boost since Unaware already fulfills everything we would want on a decentralizer.
  15. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    I would use it. So that is clearly a poor argument.

  16. Admiral_Stalfos19

    Admiral_Stalfos19

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    Going for No Secondary Ability since you can just run Light Screen in the off-chance that you're seriously considering to fight Zapdos with this thing
  17. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
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    I guess No secondary ability is fine, though I liked Special Intimidate myself.

    Just wondering, will Unaware (the name) be changed, or rather, can it be? I feel like the name Unaware for the ability somewhat sends what Watermon's appearance in a specific direction (see: Bibarel, stupid pokemon). A name change could make the art unbiased again ?_?
  18. Umbreon Dan

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    No Secondary Ability. CAP6 doesn't need one.
  19. Infiltrator

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    Voted No Secondary Ability.
  20. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    Whoops. Accidentally voted No Secondary Ability. Should've voted Shockproof.

    Adding a secondary ability really wouldn't harm CAP6's goal too much (could always just use Unaware and ignore Shockproof entirely), but I feel that Shockproof's allowance for CAP6 to beat Zapdos in certain circumstances is conducive to this Pokemon's goal, which is to decentralize.

    A Zapdos that can switch in with impunity on CAP6 would likely further encourage the use of Zapdos (which may not be that bad at pairing up with CAP6 itself), which would in turn further the use of Pokemon that can stopper Zapdos, most of which are in the top ten (Tar, Strata, Blissey, etc.). Encouraging a Zapdos > CAP6 > Tar/Strata/Blissey/etc, > Zapdos triangle doesn't seem as decentralizing as it should be (though my predictions here could be wrong). So the least that could be done is to at least allow CAP6 the option of beating Zapdos, so as to at least try to help discourage that.

    At any rate, it's not doing anything harmful to CAP6, and is probably not so inferior to Unaware that it wouldn't see the light of day. If anything, it might just change up what CAP6 can beat (from Rev to Zapdos). Unaware is very nice for CAP6's goal, but I don't see it as absolutely necessary for its success.

    Again, if you don't like Shockproof, nobody's telling you you have to use it.

    I'm not sure it matters at this stage in the game, though. :S
  21. ferron

    ferron

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    okay, as i already said i voted nsa, but its annoying me that no one is mentioning anything outside of zapados when it comes to electric. has everyone forgotten that sometimes blissey carries thunderbolt? or that its one of the most accessible tms in the game? or how easy it would be to use hp electric? (bc in all honesty, hp flying and psychic just arent that good)

    seriously, zapados isn't the only possible electric user in the top 10.

    edit- both rev and fridgit have builds that use hp electric and strat has a build with thunderbolt. also, ttar can learn both, though thats not as scarey.
  22. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    While it's obvious that Zapdos isn't the only user of Electric moves (there's Rotom, and all that), Zapdos is the only one of the top ten (and, therefore, a target of CAP6) to use them on a regular basis. Heatran and Strata are really the only ones that come close to that. Strata's using Charge Beam less than 10% of the time, and, while I'm not sure exactly how many Heatran are packing HP Electric, it's probably not a high number.

    Number of Blissey with Thunderbolt as of November:

    Blissey | Move | Other (8) | < 3.6 |
  23. LonelyNess

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    Guys, voting NSA is just stupid. The only arguments I have seen against Shockproof are that it's "contrived, and not really needed," or "It'll be so outclassed by the other ability," or "in an effort to make the project less fanboyish." That and that it will sway the art poll.

    A.) It is the goal of the concept to check the top 10 threats, why in the world would we go for "just enough" when we could concievably check more? That's ridiculous. The concept is to check as many as possible, so WHY WOULDN'T WE ATTEMPT THIS THROUGH ANY MEANS? If Shockproof allows certain variants to check mor of the top 10, then it should be included.

    B.) Being outclassed by another ability is a non-issue. The ability isn't going to feel bad that it wasn't used over Unaware. It merely provides the player with another option when customizing their CAP6. Why would we not want to have more options?

    C.) Regardless of what we do, the project will be seen as fanboyish. And any arguments of "well we could make it seem LESS so" are ridiculous. There is a level of fanboyishness to what we are doing that will never be erased. There is nothing to do about it, so we might as well 'go with the flow.'

    D.) The only reason that an ability shouldn't be chosen is if it's considered useless when compared to another option that can be voted for, or when it's overpowering. There's no reason to vote NSA ever.

    E.) The competetive aspects of the Pokemon should NEVER be influenced because it might "sway the art polls one way or another." The artists were warned that their designs might conflict with the outcomes of the polls and should not be surprised when something happens to that affect. Competetive aspects shape the art, NOT the other way around. This isn't a flavor project, it's a competetive one.

    ------------------

    Shockproof provides an interesting alternative to Unaware in that with the correct EVing you will stand a better chance against the more defensive, and even slightly offensive Zapdos. Being that the concept is to check the top 10, and Zapdos currently resides in the top 10, I see no reason why this shouldn't be a top priority ability.

    VOTE SHOCKPROOF
  24. Drakhun

    Drakhun

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    I realy want no guard, as I find NSA on a CAP kind of a waste. however, with shockproof looking like the only competitor, and I hate the concept of shockproof, I voted NSA to vote against it.
  25. Frosty

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    On your decentralizer? 'cause the poke we are creating here is a decentralizer, not anything else, and Unaware already gives you everything you may need and is far far superior to the other options. If you prefer to use No Guard and suffer the consequences of being easy prey to WoWs from pyroak and Heatran, toxic from Blissey, SEs and all the other not 100% accurate attacks in exchange for perfect accuracy on Cross Chop, which is clearly no dynamic punch, (and Hydro Pump, but his Sp.Atk is gonna be bad, so it won't be all that useful), then by all means be my guest, but you can be sure as hell that you are either giving yourself a disadvantage or not using a decentralizer (more like a Machamp with STAB Hydro Pump instead of Fire Blast).

    But that is my opinion.
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