CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Ignus]

I'm not too worried about intimidate being outclassed, as it's already one of the strongest abilities in the game. What I AM worried about is this discussion loosing focus by putting us in a place where we make stupid decisions for uncompetitive reasons. I hate secondary abilities, as they unfocus an already integral part of the project. Think about how many calculations during stat spread phase were made with intimidate specifically in mind; how so much of our pokemon already relys on using the ability to setup and create opportunities?

Life orb Breloom does 46.8-55.6% damage without intimidate.
Scizor 2hkos us without intimidate.
Conkeldurr 2hkos us without intimidate.
Tyranitar (without fire blast) with a positive nature 2hkos with stone edge. Without intimidate.
Life orb Gyarados 2hkos us without intimidate.

We have our opportunities defined. Intimidate was chosen for the concept for a reason. Nothing else does its job quite like it does.
There is no reason for another ability. We have what we need and we chose it for a reason. Anything else, at this point, will only hurt us.

 

[Full_Korbe]

My two main ideas are Limber because we can without problem (except HP Fire) set up on Jirachi. Para is always annoying and being immune is sure really great. However, I do think it's quite niche, because aside from Jirachi (which may use Thunder for this moreover) and casually on mons like Blissey or Ferro, it's fairly rare to see Thunder-Wave or Body Slam, and well, CAP won't be tanking a Thunder.

My second proposition is Sap Sipper. What does it give ? For starters, any Ferro without T-Wave is a set-up bait (even letting us to SWITCH on Leech Seed, which is really great because personally, that's the move I like to use when I don't have much to do). There is also Breloom : we only fear an SD (and only because it will force mind games) and others move are set-up occasions for us (aside for Mach Punch LO / Fighting Gem I think). What is nice is he will fear to throw Spore, and it will make CAP relevant without even being in play. If CAP has Intimidate, it's better to launch Spore, but what if it has Sap Sipper ?
Aside from those main uses, it's still nice to use against Celebi (because we are actually dangerous for it at +1, while he can take an hit from 0 and proceed to Para-us / U-Turn to an RK).
Then, there is Venusaur, but it's not really our business. Oh and Aboma I guess ?

What I don't like about Wonder Skin is well, luck. Sand Veil was banned because counters to Garchomp were forced to gamble to force him out, and even if it's another case (1/2 is more "reliable" for us than 4/5, and it's only affect non-offensive moves), I'd prefer something more reliable.

 

[Homeslice]

Basically the only ability I'd vote for in favor of Wonder Skin would be Soundproof
Soundproof prevents Roar from effecting us, making only users of Whirlwind able to phaze us behind a sub, which helps against ground types we are supposed to be threatening

Other than that it's Wonder Skin or NCA for me

 

[alexwolf]

I'm not too worried about intimidate being outclassed, as it's already one of the strongest abilities in the game. What I AM worried about is this discussion loosing focus by putting us in a place where we make stupid decisions for uncompetitive reasons. I hate secondary abilities, as they unfocus an already integral part of the project. Think about how many calculations during stat spread phase were made with intimidate specifically in mind; how so much of our pokemon already relys on using the ability to setup and create opportunities?

Life orb Breloom does 46.8-55.6% damage without intimidate.
Scizor 2hkos us without intimidate.
Conkeldurr 2hkos us without intimidate.
Tyranitar (without fire blast) with a positive nature 2hkos with stone edge. Without intimidate.
Life orb Gyarados 2hkos us without intimidate.

We have our opportunities defined. Intimidate was chosen for the concept for a reason. Nothing else does its job quite like it does.
There is no reason for another ability. We have what we need and we chose it for a reason. Anything else, at this point, will only hurt us.

You reached to the conclusion that anything else will only hurt us with no real reasoning. You tried to show how Intimidate is a must in order to setup as nothing else does its job, and this is ok, but then you made quite a logical leap.

The mindset that the CAP doesn't need anything else as it is just fine with its current ability is missing the point. Of 'course a secondary ability is not a must at all, because that is its nature. It's not supposed to be necessary. The question you should be making to yourself is ''Will a secondary ability increase the odds of the CAP fulfilling its concept?''. If yes is the answer, then there is nothing wrong with picking a secondary ability. If you think that it's going to derail the CAP from its project, make it too haxy (in the case of Wonder Skin), or overshadow its primary ability then not picking a secondary ability is a very logic decision. Those are the right reasons to not like some abilities. An ability that will give more versatility to the CAP without having any of those negatives can only help the CAP's Belly Drum set (or sets), which is something desirable.

I would really like to hear some reasons as to why people don't like Motor Drive btw. The Electric-types of OU remain as Pokemon against which we can't set up on, as even if we do manage to switch into on of their electric attacks, and even if we outspeed we can't OHKO back while they can deal enough damage to prevent setting up. As for the other Pokemon that use Electric moves in OU (Celebi, Ferrothorn, Forretress, SpD Thunder Jirachi, and SubCM Jirachi), none of them should spam those moves when the CAP is around and they have other options to deal with the CAP anyway (Celebi has Perish Song and U-turn/Baton Pass to prevent the CAP from switching in or setting up, Ferrothorn has Leech Seed, SpD Jirachi can just use Body Slam, SubCM Jirachi can just 2HKO with Psychic / Water Pulse, while not even needing prediction thanks to Sub, so only Forretress remains helpless against the CAP). None of those Pokemon relies on those moves to the point that not being able to spam them compromises their effectiveness, meaning that they don't have any reason to not avoid spamming Electric moves and thus preventing the CAP from ever getting the Speed boost. So all that Motor Drive is going to do is help us set up against some Pokemon that Intimidate doesn't, (~4-5 Pokemon, which is really not a big number compared to Intimidate) which is enough to differentiate it from Intimidate without outperforming it.

If people are really that afraid of the Speed boost (which will be irrelevant as i explained) we could always go for Volt Absorb.

 

[pyronomous]

You reached to the conclusion that anything else will only hurt us with no real reasoning. You tried to show how Intimidate is a must in order to setup as nothing else does its job, and this is ok, but then you made quite a logical leap.

The mindset that the CAP doesn't need anything else as it is just fine with its current ability is missing the point. Of 'course a secondary ability is not a must at all, because that is its nature. It's not supposed to be necessary. The question you should be making to yourself is ''Will a secondary ability increase the odds of the CAP fulfilling its concept?''. If yes is the answer, then there is nothing wrong with picking a secondary ability. If you think that it's going to derail the CAP from its project, make it too haxy (in the case of Wonder Skin), or overshadow its primary ability then not picking a secondary ability is a very logic decision. Those are the right reasons to not like some abilities. An ability that will give more versatility to the CAP without having any of those negatives can only help the CAP's Belly Drum set (or sets), which is something desirable.

I would really like to hear some reasons as to why people don't like Motor Drive btw. The Electric-types of OU remain as Pokemon against which we can't set up on, as even if we do manage to switch into on of their electric attacks, and even if we outspeed we can't OHKO back while they can deal enough damage to prevent setting up. As for the other Pokemon that use Electric moves in OU (Celebi, Ferrothorn, Forretress, SpD Thunder Jirachi, and SubCM Jirachi), none of them should spam those moves when the CAP is around and they have other options to deal with the CAP anyway (Celebi has Perish Song and U-turn/Baton Pass to prevent the CAP from switching in or setting up, Ferrothorn has Leech Seed, SpD Jirachi can just use Body Slam, SubCM Jirachi can just 2HKO with Psychic / Water Pulse, while not even needing prediction thanks to Sub, so only Forretress remains helpless against the CAP). None of those Pokemon relies on those moves to the point that not being able to spam them compromises their effectiveness, meaning that they don't have any reason to not avoid spamming Electric moves and thus preventing the CAP from ever getting the Speed boost. So all that Motor Drive is going to do is help us set up against some Pokemon that Intimidate doesn't, (~5-6 Pokemon, which is really not a big number compared to Intimidate) which is enough to differentiate it from Intimidate without outperforming it.

If people are really that afraid of the Speed boost (which will be irrelevant as i explained) we could always go for Volt Absorb.

Or lightningrod, as it gives no real advantage to CAP 6 besides an electric immunity, so it shouldn't overshadow intimidate as much, but instead provides another alternative for setting up

 

[Bughouse]

If people are really that afraid of the Speed boost (which will be irrelevant as i explained)

I really don't think you can call +1 speed irrelevant when it means we now can't be revenged by a scarfer, leaving only priority as a revenge opportunity. And even priority isn't super reliable if CAP 6 gets its own priority. I find that dangerous. I could have (and would have) supported Motor Drive with a sub 110 speed, so that a few common scarfers could still revenge us, but at 118? No thanks. Are these opportunities to get the +1 speed rare? In general, I'd agree with you. But if you accurately predict a choiced Volt Switch, which isn't exactly uncommon, you have free +6 while also outspeeding your opponent's whole team.

If people want the chance to get a niche set-up opportunity v Electric moves, I would advocate Lightningrod if we truly want no other bonus from it or Volt Absorb if we want it to be actually somewhat useful.

There are reasons to support the Electric immunity. For example, with 108 HP EVs (a lot, regrettably) you can set up on all Chansey/Blissey lacking a Fire move. You will live the Stealth Rocks, Belly Drum, and one Seismic Toss and can proceed to sweep, if possible. Alternatively, with a Sitrus Berry, you can set up on Chansey/Blissey lacking a Fire move without any HP EVs. It also screws over all Forretress and some Jirachi. Losing Intimidate is the huge tradeoff, obviously.

It definitely does good, niche things. I just think the +1 speed is so unnecessary and anti-concept at this point.

 

[alexwolf]

srk1214

But even if you predict the Volt Switch and switch into it, the Electric-types that use this move can all prevent you from setting up with other moves, while the only one that can't is Forretress, the only non-Electric user of Volt Switch in OU.

And honestly, why Lightingrod when you can have an ability that does something useful for the CAP, besides the Electric-type immunity? I am talking about Volt Absorb if you don't want Motor Drive. What negative does healing 25% of your life when switching into predicted Electric-type moves (which most of the time will be very risky) have? Quite, the opposite actually, it is beneficial for a Pokemon that wants to sweep with Belly Drum, as it gives us the chance to heal any SR damage that we may have taken when coming in early-game to scout for checks and counters.

EDIT: Oh right srk, i forgot about choiced Electric-types, which is a legit point against Motor Drive. Let's focus on Volt Absorb then...

 

[Leviathes]

I don't even get why people support or even propose Wonder Skin. It's an ability that is hazardous to CAP6. 50% Acc on Wisps, TWaves, Leech Seeds, Whirlwinds, Tricks, and Taunts among others is huge. I can't even fathom why we banned evasion moves and abilities yet we now propose an ability with a similar effect for this project. If you think CAP6 is susceptible to burns/paralysis/phaze/whatnot, then just pick a status immunity ability that takes care of one of them and teammates who can prevent or offset the other threats. CAP6 is a setup sweeper; of course it needs team support to be successful. -_-

I also abhor the speed-boosting abilities that got a mention in this thread, i.e. Motor Drive, Rattled, and Weak Armor. The stats already took care of the necessary speed to outrun most non-priority users in OU and even Scarf Magnezone. And if we get priority moves on CAP6 ourselves, we get the jump on most priority users. Why would we need more? These abilities are pointless and contribute nonsensical "advantages" to CAP. Moreso with Motor Drive, which alexwolf already explained that it doesn't prevent Jolteon or Magnezone from doing ample damage using coverage moves. And even in the off-chance that you're hit by one, you don't even need the speed boost. Why propose/support it then?

I would like to put my support behind No Competitive Ability for now, since Intimidate already does what we need in setting up.

 

[Bughouse]

srk1214

But even if you predict the Volt Switch and switch into it, the Electric-types that use this move can all prevent you from setting up with other moves, while the only one that can't is Forretress, the only non-Electric user of Volt Switch in OU.

If you read more closely, I said CHOICED Volt Switch.

 

[Birkal]

Regardless of my personal opinion of what our secondary ability should be, I think it is a bit misguided to think that we have interacted fully with our counters list at this point in time. Although we can utilize movepool to make up for this, it's really something we should be exploring at this stage. Infiltrator Malaconda was brought up earlier, and I think that's a valid comparison to make. If we can do something niche at minimum, it's going to support our goal of using Belly Drum.

I'm a bit perplexed as to why Regenerator hasn't come up in this thread. We discussed it thoroughly for Primary Ability, and the logic behind it is reasonable. For those of you that hear the name and immediately rush to calculator to share why it's improbable that CAP 6 will ever have the opportunity to set up, remember that Regenerator is all about longevity. Although we've done great work so far to prevent residual damage with our typing, we still are susceptible to build up from Rough Skin, Rocky Helmet, Leech Seed, and Stealth Rock. For example, Ferrothorn is not listed on our threats list, and yet it walks all over us currently with our inability to do much back without losing a significant amount of health to Leech Seed + Iron Barbs. The arguments that I've heard for "CAP 6 Regenerator will inevitably turn into a bulky pivot" holds no water; I wouldn't describe Mienshao as a pivot (and U-turn helps out more than Regenerator, in my estimation). With all this talk of Substitute running around (which I think is a great move for CAP 6), I don't understand why we're not even considering Regenerator. Substitute + Belly Drum gets screwed over by any sort of phazing, making CAP 6 completely worthless after its "one and done" shot.

 

[jas61292]

Ok, so, I've looked at a lot of these abilities that are being thrown around, and honestly, I am failing to see why we actually want the effects of any of them. Sure, there are some that are nice to have, but when you remember you have to give up Intimidate for them, the list of what abilities are actually appealing shrinks dramatically. To me, I think what it all comes down to is what we are actually wanting to do here. In my view, messing with counters is just about the last thing we want to do. I hear some people arguing that as we are right now people won't even have to carry a counter for CAP 6 because the Pokemon that beat it are already on every team, and that we should give it another ability so that this isn't the case. I hear this, however, and wonder why we would want to do that. How many of the Pokemon people are calling such counters are actually counters? Almost none.

Here at CAP we actually have a definition of a counter. To be considered a hard counter, you need to fulfill three of the following criteria:

• Can switch into this CAP's Strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
• Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
• Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.
• Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
• Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.
• Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.

While it is certainly true that there are Pokemon that counter us from the start, once we are set up, there is likely not a single Pokemon in the entire game that can fulfill three of these. And that is with STAB moves alone. Yes, clearly, having to take a turn and a lot of HP to set up makes things more difficult. Even so, we need to remember that Pokemon is not a 1v1 affair. You have an entire team, and with a Pokemon like CAP 6 that is supposed to be breaking through the entire opponents team, it should not be coming in and trying to sweep early game. Its checks will be weakened, it will have hazard support. Sure, it is not OHKOing everything, but with proper team help, there will be very little that should stand in its way once the time is right to set up. Helping it beat counters with something like Iron Fist is not something we should be aiming for because they are already flimsy enough as is.

Intimidate was chosen to help set up, a large part because we determined that set up needed more help than sweeping. The way I see secondary abilities, if this is what we chose our primary ability for, this is what we should be choosing a secondary ability for. We should look for something that helps in the same sort of fashion, but in a niche way that Intimidate can't do. I see this as very similar to Malaconda in that sense, as others have pointed out already. Something such as Limber or Water Veil which let us set up on certain status inducing Pokemon would be an ideal choice, since it functions similarly to Intimidate as far as its goal being to help set up, but does so in a very small set of circumstances. Lightningrod is another choice that I like, as it provides us with an electric immunity that would give us some extra setup chances, without actually providing any other benefit over Intimidate (unlike Motor Drive or Volt Absorb).

With that said though, I personally don't think even these niche abilities are very necessary. I see Intimidate as the perfect choice of ability here, and anything else we give it would be trying to add variety for variety's sake. Variety doesn't do anything specifically to help us here. The mere presence of CAP 6 should shout "I AM BELLY DRUMMING" as loud as possible. Its advantage is in its brute force, and if we are doing that right, it should not have to surprise an opponent. CAP 6 should be the kind of Pokemon where, when well played, the opponent knows the battle is over before it ever comes out on the field. Adding extra unpredictability is not only unnecessary, but, in my opinion, harmful to what we are trying to achieve. So while I would not be totally against some of the niche stuff, I think No Competitive Ability is the best way to go.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

The arguments that I've heard for "CAP 6 Regenerator will inevitably turn into a bulky pivot" holds no water; I wouldn't describe Mienshao as a pivot (and U-turn helps out more than Regenerator, in my estimation).

CAP 6 has an amazing defensive type and decent physical bulk. Mienshao has a lackluster defensive typing and 65/60/60 defenses. Not an entirely fair comparison.

 

[Clankenator007]

I feel that some are grossly overestimating just how good Belly Drum is, especially with a typing that leaves us with no usable stab options (bar acrobatics but this requires the loss of an item) over 80 base power. Every steel type in OU bar Forretress eats CAP 6 for breakfast. As long as CAP 6 is forced into Belly Drumming with it's movepool there are truly very few ways to break this pokemon. When a pokemon's only set involves spending a turn to reduce it's hp by 50%, nothing bar prankster + copycat or pure power is going to break it as an offensive mon. As long as the secondary ability doesn't make CAP 6 want to do something besides Belly Drumming nothing is going to be too good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I really really think that Motor Drive screws up the balance on our CAP too much.

Right now jolteon and magnezone are counters to our CAP, and motor drive turns them into setup opportunities. Which I find problematic. Then throw in the boost of speed on top of that and things look even less balanced.

If you want a move that boosts speed on proper switch in prediction, try Rattled, at least that keeps us switching in on things that we would already not mind switching into, and it doesn't give us an electricity immunity.

And, no, HP ice doesn't let them still counter us unless you think there is NO chance this CAP will run sitrus berry, or even leftovers, and I definitely think it's gonna do one or the other.

 

[alexwolf]

I really really think that Motor Drive screws up the balance on our CAP too much.

Right now jolteon and magnezone are counters to our CAP, and motor drive turns them into setup opportunities. Which I find problematic. Then throw in the boost of speed on top of that and things look even less balanced.

If you want a move that boosts speed on proper switch in prediction, try Rattled, at least that keeps us switching in on things that we would already not mind switching into, and it doesn't give us an electricity immunity.

Stop saying this, it's just not true. Is it so difficult to run a few calcs? Magnezone does over 50% to the CAP with Hidden Power Ice, and Jolteon's LO or Specs HP Ice prevents the CAP from setting up too.

 

[SotheBlacKnight]

I (ATM) honestly like the idea of either Insomnia/Vital Spirit, Limber or Water Vail. Neither of them outclass Intimidate but give the CAP one less thing to worry about against defensive mons and in the case of Insomnia/Vital Spirit a way to come in on Breloom's Spore.

 

[FlinchMachine]

Ok, here I go.
I've noticed that all great counters of our CAP could be defeated just with one thing: Technician. Yeah, Aerial Ace is almost obrigatory in Flying-types. Quick Attack is very common indeed. If our CAP have these moves with Technician, it could defeat almost all counters without problem, just sacrifing Intimidate, wich means hard chance to set up, so to do that it would have to set up front of Ferrothorn and things like this.
Before the set up:
Guaranteed:
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Quick Attack vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Venusaur: 394-465 (123.51 - 145.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 510-601 (188.19 - 221.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 456-537 (152.5 - 179.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 372-438 (115.17 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+5 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 324-382 (101.25 - 119.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 390-459 (149.42 - 175.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not guaranteed, but almost. Guaranteed after Stealth Rock:
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 355-418 (99.16 - 116.75%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
+5 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 324-382 (97.88 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 372-438 (99.46 - 117.11%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 340-400 (99.12 - 116.61%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
Maybe afer Stealth Rock:
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 294-346 (76.56 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No:
+5 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 271-319 (71.12 - 83.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 161-190 (49.84 - 58.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 150-177 (53.38 - 62.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Technician (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 170-200 (42.07 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

With a powerful Fighting move the covarage is guaranteed, with the exeption of the rare Ofensive Pivot Landurus-T.

It is not better than intimidate but works.

 

[jynx KB]

Here's where Technician fails for me. In many cases it just makes Belly Drum unnecessary. We are nearly creating another Bullet Punch Scizor, and if Choice Band wasn't an option with the attacking stats before, it certainly would be more appealing under Technician.

Our Speed and Attacking stats were chosen for a reason people. (I'm looking at you Motor Drive supporters) If there were any plans of further boosting moves, or even ones CAP was likely to get other than Belly Drum, they would have been covered under stats submissions. Those calculations were not.

As for Intimidate being the only needed ability, it really depends on one thing. Do we want CAP to set up only against certain Pokemon and teams? Or are we willing to branch out on the potential candidates? Specifically, how late in the game to we want to begin sweeping?

This is the main question when it comes to abilities. How many threats are we expecting teammates to cover?

True, typing covers Spikes damage and Poison, but Intimidate itself only handles straightforward physical attackers. Don't say it's all we need when there are obviously some counter tactics that it doesn't cover such as Leech Seed, Taunt, and other Status. Do we want CAP to have any say at all in combating this?

I'm just repeating myself now, but it really is the heart of the issue for an alternate ability, so why don't we try focusing on that first and foremost.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Stop saying this, it's just not true. Is it so difficult to run a few calcs? Magnezone does over 50% to the CAP with Hidden Power Ice, and Jolteon's LO or Specs HP Ice prevents the CAP from setting up too.

And then all you have to do is run a sitrus berry and suddenly you beat two pokémon who are supposed to counter you. No thank you.

Similarly, I think that technician gives us too much oomph. Iron Fist at least provides a smaller bonus and only gives it to a portion of our likely attacks

 

[jagged_angel]

I think Technician would be a viable Secondary Ability. We would not in any way be creating another Scizor. Our base 92 Attack is distinctly underwhelming - what makes Scizor a great user of Choice Band is its stellar base 130 Attack and U-Turn. Aside from Dugtrio, no OU poke uses a Choice Band set with less than base 94 Attack. Ferrothorn only uses it as a kind of gimmicky option because of 150BP and 120BP STAB moves. Jirachi only uses it because of flinch hax and again, U-Turn. Just because Technician gives us an immediate attack boost, it does not mean we will be using Movemon to sweep at +0. On the contrary, the calcs above and the fact that our STABs are likely to be boosted by Technician means we will reap the largest rewards from the boost at +6 Attack.

I've already said why I am in favour of Technician:

Technician helps us be more immediately threatening with possible STABs of Bullet Punch and 82.5 Base Power ‘un-boosted’ Acrobatics, and it also frees us up to use a different Flying STAB such as 90BP Pluck or even Sky Drop. Technician makes it more viable to run rarely seen coverage moves with interesting effects such as lowering Speed, Defence, flinching or causing paralysis. There are lots of useful Physical moves our CAP could use for coverage that cause these effects. Technician doesn't give us any particular extra set-up chances like ‘The Ability That Shall Not Be Named’, but it does make the CAP generally better at being threatening from the get go. Inflicting the added effects of various Technician boosted moves will also help with our set-up chances. I don’t want to assume we’ll allow any particular moves, but it’s fair to assume Movemon get some useful coverage. Just look through the list of Technician boosted Fighting moves for example: Force Palm, Low Sweep, Rolling Kick, Triple Kick; all of these become useful with Technician and are arguably better suited to aiding a Belly Drum sweep than Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm or HJK.

Although FlinchMachine's calculations are useful to show us the potential power of Technician, we don't Need Quick Attack to make good use of Technician. Bullet Punch, Acrobatics, Aerial Ace, Pluck, and plenty of coverage moves are boosted by Technician. Flying/Water and Flying/Fighting are also decent coverage so we could potentially have Mach Punch or Aqua Jet instead of Bullet Punch. I like the fact that we the CAP community will be completely in control as to how powerful Technician is, through the movepool stage of the process.

Birkal, I am quite strongly against Regenerator - it was thoroughly discussed in the Primary Ability thread and there were three very strong arguments against it:
1. Regenerator does not directly aid CAP's set up or sweeping opportunities
2. Regenerator encourages CAP's role to be less late-game sweeper and more bulky pivot (Mienshao does not have CAP's Defence stat or Steel/Flying typing)
3. Regenerator actually discourages use of Belly Drum, since it only activates when you switch out

Arguments 2 and 3 are circumstantial, as sometimes in a round-about way Regenerator will help scout for opportunities to set up. However argument 1 is a permanent thorn in CAP's side as with Regenerator it will lose Intimidate and gain nothing that directly helps it set-up or sweep.

Intimidate is one of the the strongest defensive Abilities in the game, helping in a multitude of situations and as such, a minor defensive Ability such as Limber or Sap Sipper will never be preferable. A strong offensive Ability such as Technician though, will have a chance to be really useful IF you can get set up.

 

[Todd]

Birkal, I am quite strongly against Regenerator - it was thoroughly discussed in the Primary Ability thread and there were three very strong arguments against it:
1. Regenerator does not directly aid CAP's set up or sweeping opportunities
2. Regenerator encourages CAP's role to be less late-game sweeper and more bulky pivot (Mienshao does not have CAP's Defence stat or Steel/Flying typing)
3. Regenerator actually discourages use of Belly Drum, since it only activates when you switch out

Arguments 2 and 3 are circumstantial, as sometimes in a round-about way Regenerator will help scout for opportunities to set up. However argument 1 is a permanent thorn in CAP's side as with Regenerator it will lose Intimidate and gain nothing that directly helps it set-up or sweep.

Intimidate is one of the the strongest defensive Abilities in the game, helping in a multitude of situations and as such, a minor defensive Ability such as Limber or Sap Sipper will never be preferable. A strong offensive Ability such as Technician though, will have a chance to be really useful IF you can get set up.

Of all these points, the only relevant one is number two. Yes, regenerator would probably allow CAP 6 to take on more of a bulky pivot role, but it would also greatly increase set up opportunities, and in fact help it set up on defensive pokemon like blissey or whatnot.

You've got CAP 6 in on blissey. You use substitute, which as Srk1214 said, is a better alternative than Wonder Skin to use against non-attacking moves. However, blissey sees this coming and seismic tosses. Now you are in a bind; 25% down on health without a sub, plus whatever switch in damage you took. So you switch out, to try again at a better time. Regenerator heals off the damage from the mis-substitute. That, I think, is the greatest advantage in Regenerator; it will heal off the damage of a substitute that didn't work, which will greatly aid it in setting up against defensive pokemon. Regenerator and substitute thus work hand in hand; by giving CAP 6 a non broken way of setting up on defensive pokemon, through means that already exist in the game (substitute.) Having worked extensively with trying to make sub-belly drummers work in the past, having a reliable (but non broken way) to heal off damage from a failed sub is pretty nice, since a failed sub all but kills off any chance of drumming.

That being said, I am still in support of NCA, because it is true that regenerator may also make it into more a bulky pivot, and CAP's got enough of those to be getting on with. However, I would not be adverse to regenerator being the secondary ability if it had to have one.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

I would like to bring up Flash Fire as a possibility for the cap.

It might seem much at first, but it adds multiple set up opportunities for us without being overly broken, and to the best of my knowledge, it does not outclass intimidate as an ability on this cap. Flash fire would allow us to set up on a few more Pokemon, notably Pokemon like heatran, providing roar isn't used, in which case it provides a bit of leeway but does not cause heatran to become worthless when fighting our cap. We could also pressure sun teams, as if they didn't have enough problems this gen, by switching into their weather starter, and in most cases forcing a switch, which allows for a free drumming.

Intimidate and flash fire perform very differently then one another, so I think it could be an option to be considered this time around.

 

[Bughouse]

S0L1D G0LD , Offensive Heatran is still doing enough with HP Ice, while Defensive Tran has Roar. Offensive Volcarona's +1 Bug Buzz still does ~40%. Infernape obviously has options. Bulky Ninetales will have Roar.

Basically, it lets you set up on: Offensive Heatran running HP Grass, Special Attacker Ninetales. Anything choice locked into a Fire move. That's not much at all.

I'd say for sure Volt Absorb and even Lightningrod are more useful niche abilities than Flash Fire.

 

[DHR-107]

I wouldn't describe Mienshao as a pivot (and U-turn helps out more than Regenerator, in my estimation). With all this talk of Substitute running around (which I think is a great move for CAP 6), I don't understand why we're not even considering Regenerator. Substitute + Belly Drum gets screwed over by any sort of phazing, making CAP 6 completely worthless after its "one and done" shot.

That's more because Meinshao has the defences of a wet paper bag than because of its ability. We still have just enough attack to hurt stuff from where we are. 92 is only just short of Ferrothorn's 94 (Granted he has significantly higher base power moves) but even so I would not be surprised if people used Regen in conjunction with Scarf for some sort of weird weak late game scarf mon to pick things off that are low on health. or to just generally annoy stuff throughout the match.

None of the abilities talked about so far have really swayed me either way. Technician seems like we might be doing too much, Motor Drive is kind of out of the question, Wonder Skin is frankly ridiculous when phazing is one of the few ways to get rid of our boosts... I'm still in the NCA camp because I just think Intimidate works. The only other ability that's been mentioned and I would support as of right now is Limber because it stops us being screwed over by a random Twave that gets launched at us.

 

[jagged_angel]

Of all these points, the only relevant one is number two. Yes, regenerator would probably allow CAP 6 to take on more of a bulky pivot role, but it would also greatly increase set up opportunities, and in fact help it set up on defensive pokemon like blissey or whatnot.

You've got CAP 6 in on blissey. You use substitute, which as Srk1214 said, is a better alternative than Wonder Skin to use against non-attacking moves. However, blissey sees this coming and seismic tosses. Now you are in a bind; 25% down on health without a sub, plus whatever switch in damage you took. So you switch out, to try again at a better time. Regenerator heals off the damage from the mis-substitute. That, I think, is the greatest advantage in Regenerator; it will heal off the damage of a substitute that didn't work, which will greatly aid it in setting up against defensive pokemon. Regenerator and substitute thus work hand in hand; by giving CAP 6 a non broken way of setting up on defensive pokemon, through means that already exist in the game (substitute.) Having worked extensively with trying to make sub-belly drummers work in the past, having a reliable (but non broken way) to heal off damage from a failed sub is pretty nice, since a failed sub all but kills off any chance of drumming.

That being said, I am still in support of NCA, because it is true that regenerator may also make it into more a bulky pivot, and CAP's got enough of those to be getting on with. However, I would not be adverse to regenerator being the secondary ability if it had to have one.

The situation you've described shows exactly how Regenerator provides no direct assistance to setting up. In contrast with Intimidate - weakening a physical attack gives your Substitute a chance not to be broken - therefore actually directly helping set up.
For example, Ferrothorn can break CAP's substitutes with Gyro Ball:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 61-72 (25.31 - 29.87%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
But after Intimidate, it cannot:
-1 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 41-48 (17.01 - 19.91%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
So Intimidate can be more useful for Substitute than Regenerator.

The other issue in the situation you describe is that CAP didn't Belly Drum! So Regenerator didn't help CAP fulfil its role at all. Yes it might get another chance to try and set up, but that set up isn't going to be any easier as a result of Regenerator. In your example, Blissey can just Seismic Toss every time to keep breaking CAP's subs. If we want to give CAP more chances to set up, we can achieve the same result with Wish support. If we really wanted an Ability that meant CAP had to switch out in order to have another chance of sweeping, Natural Cure would be better than Regenerator - but neither of them actually helps it Belly Drum.

What I think our Abilities need to do is either directly help set up, or directly help sweeping. Since Intimidate already helps with setting up more than any other proposed Ability, I think we should choose an offensive Secondary Ability.