CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 8 - Stat Spread Poll 3

who stat spread should we use?


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darkie

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#1
This is our Pokémon:



105 / 110 / 95 / 70 / 100 / 75 = 555

Min-: 351/230/203/158/212/167
Min: 351/256/226/176/236/186
Max: 414/319/289/239/299/249
Max+:414/350/317/262/328/273

Borrowed some inspiration from SBC and Billymills, I constructed this spread to have a good amount of defense on both side while having a decent attack score.

105 HP: The HP allows this creature to make 101+ HP subs so Blissey can't break it in one go. It's also high so that you don't have to invest much onto it thus allowing you to invest those precious EVs somewhere else.

95 Def: In the same league with Poilwrath and it's fairly bulky so I don't see any harm with using it here. It's ironic since to mention the Tadpole since this pokemon is about to replace him. The majority of the physical move CAP6 is going to take are resisted moves, so having high defense isn't necessary anyway.
100 SpD: About the same as Celebi, Jirachi and the rest of the end-game munckins, and in terms of being specially defensive and we all know how bulky those little guyes are. Since most of the Top 10 are special attackers it needed a beefy SpD in order to survive some of those attacks. To this into perspective, Max HP/SpD has the defensive prowess similar to a Max HP/SpD Uxie. That's pretty bulky in my opinion.

Defensively against the Top 10
-------------------------------------
Tyranitar
252 Atk Adamant CB Tyranitar’s Crunch vs 0 HP / 252 Def +Nature = 23.36% - 27.64%
252 Atk Adamant CB Tyranitar’s Earthquake vs 0 HP / 252 Def + Nature = 39.03% - 46.15%
252 Atk Adamant CB Tyranitar’s Earthquake vs 252 HP / 252 Def + Nature = 33.09% - 39.13%

Scizor
Adamant 252 Atk Scizor +2 LO Superpower vs 0 HP / 252 Def+ Nature = 78.92% - 93.16%
Adamant 252 Atk Scizor +2 LO Superpower vs 252 HP / 252 Def+ Nature = 66.91% - 78.99%
CB Scizor Superpower vs 0 HP / 252 Def +Nature = 45.58% - 53.85%

Heatran

Timid Heatran’s Earth Power vs 0 HP / 0 SpDef = 28.21% - 33.33%
Timid Heatran’s Earth Power vs 0 HP / 108 SpDef = 25.36% - 29.91%

Stratagem
Timid Stratagem’s Thunderbolt vs 0 HP / 0 SpD = 55.84% - 66.10%
Timid Technician Stratagem's Giga Drain vs 0 HP / 0 SpD = 52.99% - 62.68%
Modest Choice Specs Paleo Wave vs 0 HP / 0 SpD = 30.77% - 36.18%
LO Timid Stratagem Weather Ball in Sandstorm vs 0 HP / 0 SpD = 28.49% - 33.62%
LO Timid Stratagem Paleo Wave vs 0 HP / 0 SpD = 24.22% - 28.77%

Syclant
Timid Syclant +2 Ice Beam vs 0 HP / 0 SpD = 40.17% - 47.58%
Timid Syclant +2 Ice Beam vs 252 HP / 0 SpD = 34.06% - 40.34%

Zapdos
Timid LO Zapdos Thunderbolt vs 0 HP / 0 SpD = 112.82% - 133.33%
Timid LO Zapdos Thunderbolt vs 252 HP / 0 SpD = 95.65% - 113.04%
Bold/Calm Zapdos Thunderbolt vs 0 HP / 0 SpD = 70.66% - 83.76%
Bold/Calm Zapdos Thunderbolt vs 252 HP / 0 SpD = 59.90% - 71.01%

110 Atk
: People wanted a physically offensive Pokemon so I giving them what they want. 110 base stat is plenty when most of the thing this creature is attacking are weak to it's moves. With no EVs and a netrual nature, it already OHKO's T-tar and Stratagem and 2HKO the rest of the bunch with ease. Maxing out attack yields a respectable 350 attack score which some people might like if they choose to use it as a CB or whatever.

70 SpA: Just enough strength to fire off the occasional Hydro Pump or Ice Beam. Does have the potent for wall breaking It can if EV'd correctly.

75 Spe: With 144 Spe EVs, you outspeed max speed Jolly T-tar, Adamnt Scizor, and anyone within the 60 or below group. Now with a max speed of 273 and a Choice Scarf, this monster can outpace almost all form of Dragon Dancer known today.

Offensively against the Top 10 and a few others
-----------------------------------------------
Tyranitar
0 Atk Neutral Nature CAP6 Cross Chop vs 252 HP / 0 Def T-Tar: 107.92% - 127.72%
0 Atk CAP6 Waterfall vs 252 HP / 0 Def T-tar: 43.07% - 50.99%
108 Atk CAP Water vs 252/0 T-Tar: 47.52% - 56.44%

Heatran
0 Atk CAP6 Waterfall vs 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 54.38% - 64.05%
108 Atk CAP Waterfall vs 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 59.82% - 70.69%
0 Atk CAP6 Cross Chop vs 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 67.07% - 79.76%
108 Atk CAP6 Cross Chop vs 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 74.32% - 87.61%

Stratagem
0 Atk CAP Cross Chop vs 6 HP / 0 Def Gem: 110.28% - 129.60%
0 Atk CAP Waterfall vs 6/0 Gem: 88.47% - 104.67%
108 Waterfall vs 6/0 Gem: 97.20% - 114.64%

Skarmory
0 SpA Neutral CAP Hydro Pump vs 252/0 Skarm: 38.62% - 45.81% (It would required SpA+ Neutral and 176 SpA EVs to reliablely 2HKO Skarmory with Hydro Pump)

Salamence
0 SpA CAP Ice Beam vs 160/0 Mence: 66.85% - 78.71%
0 SpA CAP Blizzard vs 160/0 Mence: 84.10% - 99.19%
0 Atk CAP Ice Punch vs 160/0 Mence: 50.67% - 60.38%
108 ATK CAP Ice Punch vs 160/0 Mence: 56.06% - 66.85%

Gyarados
0 SpA CAP Hidden Power Electric vs 156/0 Dos: 41.08% - 48.65%
108 ATK Thunder Punch vs 156/100 Dos: 50.81% - 60.54%
0 ATK Thunder Punch vs 156/100 Dos: 45.41% - 54.05%
My final submission:




As you can see, the defenses are very good, 110/90/100, which allows it to whistand the damage from switching and then some, if the opponent outspeeds it. And thanks to its adequate 80 speed, it will be able to outspeed with some EV investment most threats with moderate/low speed. Speed devils like Stratagem, Syclant and Fidgit are a lost cause, so I just didn't spend a lot of points trying to do so. The offensive stats are as uneven as possible (105 attack vs 65 Special Attack), to intentionally give it only one attacking option: If it's going to have great defenses, a good Attack stat, and with good certainty, Unaware to help it against stat boosters, it had to give up something: I didn't find it good to be SO versatile. Still, with the physical attacking stat, it will do great against the Top 5.



Damage Calcs!

On the defense:

Stratagem:
- Modest Choice Specs Weather Ball in Sandstorm vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 29.95% - 35.38%. That's the MAXIMUM damage Stratagem will ever do to my spread with a Rock move, not even a 3HKO with Leftovers negating SS damage. I'm not putting damage calcs for other rock moves, since this is the upper limit. everything else will do less or much less damage.

- Timid Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 46.23% - 54.72%. Without SR up, it only has a 6% chance of 2HKO, and with SR up, a 55% chance. Barring prediction on the opponent's side, you won't be switching into this, so you can survive a hit (plus whatever you switched into) and OHKO back.

- Timid Life Orb Technician Giga Drain vs 252/0 SpDef: 57.08% - 67.45%. I'm putting LO in this one, since the Technician set will surely use it because of the great synergy with giga Drain. As with TB, you shouldn't switch into this, and in you switch into a rock move, you are assured to kill it... Although, admittedly, with very little HP remaining.


Revenankh:
- Adamant Life Orb Hammer Arm (252 Attack EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 51.65% - 60.85%. This is the highest damage it will ever do. Which is, to be honest, quite a lot, specially considering that CAP6 cannot OHKO back.

- Standard set Hammer Arm with no BU's, or ignored BU's thanks to Unaware vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 29.01% - 34.20%. Ah, much, much better. This is what you will find 99% of the time, and is not even a 3HKO.


Fidgit:
- Timid Life Orb Earth Power (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 36.08% - 42.69%. As always, the upper limit of damage: This is the maximum Fidgit can do against my spread (well, HP Electric does 1% more), which is not even a 2HKO. That means Fidgit will have to run away even if you switch on this, or it will risk being 2HKOed.

- Timid Earth Power (0 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 21.23% - 25.00%. This will be the most common set you'll encounter, and as you can see, the damage taken is really low, not even a 4HKO. Standard Fidgit just can't do anything to this.


Tyranitar:
- Adamant Choice Band Crunch (252 Att EVs) vs 252 HP/0 Def: 28.30% - 33.25%. The most powerful set on one of the most powerful pokémon, attacking the lower defensive side of my spread... And it's not even a 3HKO. Sweet.

- Adamant Choice Band Stone Edge (252 Att EVs) vs 252 HP/0 Def: 35.38% - 41.75%. More BP equals more damage, but it is still not a 2HKO, and of course, its accuracy is not exactly the best. Tyranitar will have to run for its life.

- Adamant Choice Band Earthquake (252 Att EVs) vs 252 HP/0 Def: 47.17% - 55.66%. Ah, this one isn't as good. If your opponent predicts right, 252 HP EVs won't be enough to stop it from being a 2HKO... However, my spread has that sexy 80 base Speed, which means you'll take a lot of damage on the switch, yes... But will have to run away or will get OHKOed back in the next turn.


Zapdos:
- Timid Life Orb Thunderbolt (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 93.40% - 110.38%. Not pretty, not pretty at all, but we all knew this. At least, thanks to the great 110HP/100SpDef it has, there is a chance to survive it, even with SR up.

- Timid Life Orb Thunderbolt (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/252 SpDef and boosting nature: 66.51% - 78.30%. Now that's pretty good, considering CAP6 isn't going to counter it anyway. Not a chance to OHKO, and depending on which moves CAP6 gets, you can even stay on a Zapdos switch in and damage it a lot.

- Bold/Calm Thunderbolt (0 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 58.49% - 69.34%. The bulky Zapdos versions will still 2HKO, but you won't need to run any SpDef EVs to avoid the OHKO, allowing you to punish in the same situations as the above calculation.


Syclant:
- Timid Choice Specs Blizzard (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 31.60% - 37.26%. Ho, ho, ho, look at this. The most powerful Blizzard Syclant can offer (without stat boosts), and it won't even be a 3HKO unless there's SS/Hail and it hits over 34% on the three hits. Meanwhile, your neutral STAB moves hurt its paper defenses, and there's a very good chance that CAP6 will be carrying a SE move to simply OHKO it.

- Timid Choice Specs Bug Buzz (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 23.58% - 27.83%. If Blizzard can't do it, of course Bug Buzz won't. Syclant is countered hard with my spread, period.


Heatran:
- Modest Choice Specs Overheat (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 44.34% - 52.36%. Ow. Big dent here, although it won't 2HKO because a) you outspeed it and b) the second hit will only do half the damage. Meanwhile, you have two STABs to choose to hit it SE.

- Modest Choice Specs Fire Blast (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 37.97% - 44.81%. Still big damage, but fails to 2HKO, you outspeed it, yadda, yadda.

- Modest Choice Scarf Fire Blast (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 25.47% - 29.95%. 3HKO? Not a chance. So, it will putspeed you for a second hit, then you send it to the junkyard with the STAB of your choice.


Scizor:
- Adamant Technician Choice Band Bullet Punch (252 Att EVs) vs 252 HP/0 Def: 10.38% - 12.26%. Yeah, try again, Scizor.

- Adamant Technician Choice Band X-Scissor (252 Att EVs) vs 252 HP/0 Def: 27.59% - 32.55%. That's better... But not good enough. It still fails to 3HKO, and you outspeed it.


Attacking:

Stratagem:
- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Brick Break vs 6 HP/0 Def: 93.79% - 110.56%

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Cross Chop vs 6 HP/0 Def: 124.84% - 147.20%

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Waterfall vs 6 HP/0 Def: 99.38% - 118.01%

Basically, Stratagem is OHKOed 90% of the time if you use Waterfall.


Revenankh:
- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Waterfall vs standard BU set: 28.39% - 33.59%. Not much, but you do MORE damage to it with this than he does with Hammer Arm. So, considering my spread is also faster and he's using Hammer Arm, you should win a 1v1 duel most of the time.


Fidgit:
- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Waterfall vs 252 HP/4 Def: 53.30% - 62.94%. Comfortable 2HKO, while Fidgit cannot do anything back to you.


Tyranitar:
- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Brick Break vs 252 HP/0 Def: 98.02% - 115.84%. OHKO 80% of the time, 100% with any kind of residual damage.

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Cross Chop vs 252 HP/0 Def: 128.71% - 152.48%. Always an OHKO, of course.

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Waterfall vs 252 HP/0 Def: 51.98% - 61.39%. 2HKO, which means that if TTar is foolish enough to switch into this, it'll get KOed the next turn.


Zapdos:
- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Waterfall vs Bold version: 24.22% - 28.91%. Check the Avalance calc to see the reason of this one.

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Stone Edge vs Bold version: 40.63% - 47.92%. Against a predicted Zapdos switch, you WILL 2HKO with this as long as SR is present. And as shown in the defense version, you survive its TB with at least 40% HP left.

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Avalanche vs Bold version: 48.44% - 57.29%. With SR in play, if Zapdos switches into Waterfall, it enters in Avalanche KO range, while you survive its TB.

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Waterfall vs Calm version: 33.59% - 39.84%. possible 2HKO with SR and sandstorm/hail.

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Stone Edge vs Calm version: 56.25% - 66.67%. Against a predicted Zapdos switch, this is a surefire (barring accuracy) 2HKO.

- Neutral nature, 252 Att EVs Avalanche vs Calm version: 67.71% - 79.69%. With SR in play, if Zapdos switches into Waterfall, it enters in Avalanche KO range comfortably, while you survive its TB.
 
#5
Honestly it's like two super perts >_>
I can image Swampert coming in this forum now and upon seeing this poll would have it's feelings hurt. Poliwrath already wants to file a complain for being not only replaced but ignored for 4 generations straight. Be prepared for both Pert and Wrath to whip out their picket signs and rally in front of the CAP server.
 
#8
Never did understand the need to outrun Heatran anyway. Heatran can't do much of anything to use excuse pray for a burn hax from Fire Blast or something. You would need to invest a large amount of EVs into speed just to outpace it and that just leave less room for defensive purpose. If I have forseen this near-global desire to be just another bulky CB/LO user instead of a decentralizer like everyone was made to believe speed might have been boosted a bit. Whatever the case, at the time I never thought beating Heatran in a foot race was this important to everyone. Everyone seem to want more than offered, even when it comes to Pokemon.
 
#11
I can image Swampert coming in this forum now and upon seeing this poll would have it's feelings hurt. Poliwrath already wants to file a complain for being not only replaced but ignored for 4 generations straight. Be prepared for both Pert and Wrath to whip out their picket signs and rally in front of the CAP server.
You know, in the first poll, someone mentioned that our spreads were just buffed versions of Poliwrath. I didn't remember Poliwrath's stats at all, so I checked them and... Wow. Either spread could pass as the spread of a Poliwrath evolution (yeah, I know, 3rd stage pokémon). Anyway, I think we did a good job with our distributions.


Now, why people should vote my spread? Well, it has two adavtages over GT's:

a) Can outspeed Heatran if you feel it necessary. Normally, that shouldn't be an issue, but the choice exists. 80 Speed also allows it to tie with Togekiss... Which is not the best of ideas, but it's certainly better than being outsped in a desperate situation.

b) My spread's Special Tankiness is a bit higher, which helps taking better Stratagem's Thunderbolts and Giga Drains (and those will probably be paired with LO as I noted in my calculations). If my spread can avoid being 2HKOed by those two moves with lower defensive EVs investment, then the remaining EVs and nature are free for other stats, like speed or attack. Also, it has a decent chance at surviving a Timid LO Zapdos TB with just 252 HP evs and no positive nature. It could help in sticky situations (But don't try to rely on that!!).


Other than that, both spreads are obviously very close, so just judge what approach you like more, and vote!
 
#12
Don't really care for speed too much but if your going in the 70's might as well hit 78. Too bad none are guaranteed to survive a CSpecsModest 252 Sp.Atk Zapdos, (well at least I don't think so) not that it really matters though, this poke will still make it alot easier to counter it since you can now place a member on your team with it in mind without having to worry about the others.

Voted Time Mage but there's not really much seperating the two.
 

tennisace

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#13
Voted for G_T for the special attack.

Edit: Lol at a water type surviving a 252 SpA Choice Specs Thunderbolt from Zapdos, unless it's Lanturn it's not happening.
 
#14
Lol, these are practically the same. Would be funny if we combined them and took the average of every stat rounded up.

108 HP / 108 Atk / 93 Def / 68 SAtk / 100 SDef / 78 Spd = 555
 
#15
Now, why people should vote my spread? Well, it has two advantages over GT's:

a) Can outspeed Heatran if you feel it necessary. Normally, that shouldn't be an issue, but the choice exists. 80 Speed also allows it to tie with Togekiss... Which is not the best of ideas, but it's certainly better than being outsped in a desperate situation.
To me, outspeeding Heatran isn't all that necessary. You already can take whatever Heatran can throw at you except for Explosion and maybe HP Electric/Grass, why the need to outbest it in a race. You also have to factor in switching into the wrong move, Burn hax from FB, it basically switching out into something that can wall you all day long, and etc... Then they're the chance of it packing a priority for it's ass, making the need for high speed all but not important. I don't see the need in it outspeed one specific over than need for more defense/better offensive strength.

b) My spread's Special Tankiness is a bit higher, which helps taking better Stratagem's Thunderbolts and Giga Drains (and those will probably be paired with LO as I noted in my calculations). If my spread can avoid being 2HKOed by those two moves with lower defensive EVs investment, then the remaining EVs and nature are free for other stats, like speed or attack. Also, it has a decent chance at surviving a Timid LO Zapdos TB with just 252 HP evs and no positive nature. It could help in sticky situations (But don't try to rely on that!!).
The only advantage I'm willing to admit it has. Five points in HP makes a big different when it comes to taking hits from the special side.
 
#16
People voting for the higher speed spread to outspeed Heatran are a very misguided, unless they plan on maxing Speed and running a Choice Scarf on this guy. And even for non Choice Scarfed versions, which are by far the most common, pretty much every Heatran invests heavily in speed, so you're gonna have to do the same, which will cut down severely on your defensive and offensive capabilities, which are the main merits of this Pokemon as far as I can tell. While you can give it the base stats to be faster than Heatran, you have to realize that realistically, given the constraint of EVs, you can't make this guy faster than Heatran, able to take on Thunderbolts from Zapdos, and able to OHKO Heatran all at the same time. Obviously you all know this, so take it into account when choosing a spread.
 
#17
Lol i just voted for TimeMage because i thought Gotic Togekiss would be a dark version of Togekiss pretty stupid from me lol. If someone would like to change that, it would be awesome. Outspeeding Heatran isn't necessary. And the Special Attack can be handy so ...
 

Deck Knight

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#19
To me, outspeeding Heatran isn't all that necessary. You already can take whatever Heatran can throw at you except for Explosion and maybe HP Electric/Grass, why the need to outbest it in a race. You also have to factor in switching into the wrong move, Burn hax from FB, it basically switching out into something that can wall you all day long, and etc... Then they're the chance of it packing a priority for it's ass, making the need for high speed all but not important. I don't see the need in it outspeed one specific over than need for more defense/better offensive strength.

The only advantage I'm willing to admit it has. Five points in HP makes a big different when it comes to taking hits from the special side.
Were it not also the fact that 75 Base Speed is midling at best anyway, being beaten by a whole bunch of unsavory things (the whole lot of Mamoswine, Blaziken, and Medicham come to mind.). Heck, I made and voted for higher speed than that, but apparently the community disagreed so...

In any event, theres a bunch of things that potentially counter this floating around at 80 speed, among them Gardevoir/Gallade, Grumpig, Meganium, Togekiss, Venusaur, and Dragonite.

But nobody listens to Deck Knight >_>
 
#21
Were it not also the fact that 75 Base Speed is midling at best anyway, being beaten by a whole bunch of unsavory things (the whole lot of Mamoswine, Blaziken, and Medicham come to mind.)
I wouldn't be switching into Medicham anytime soon. Taking Hi Jump Kick, Psycho Cut, and Thunder Punch from that bastard isn't my cup of tea regardless on if you could outspeed it or not, beside aren't most Medicham scarfed? Mamoswine can potentially 2HKO with CB Earthquake you regardless of which spread you chose and Mamo does have the option of switching out from harms way? Togekiss could either Thunder Wave you upon switching in then flinch-hax you to death, Air slash you and flee, or fucking use a Choice Scarf of it's own and flinch-hax you to death....again. I can only assume the rest of the listed pokemon to do something harmful to CAP6 regardless if you could outspeed them or not. Oh sure, having high speed is great and all but we got to remember that both you and your opponent have the ability to switch out upon seeing the first sign of danger, having that high speed doesn't mean much.

No difference between the spreads is overwhelming. For the good, and for the bad. I just pointed out two things in my spread that are a little better, but there's nothing overwhelming. GT's attack is not overwhelmingly better either, nor it is his special attack. My HP isn't overwhelmingly better, and neither is my speed. But those are the differences, and those are the aspects people should consider when choosing one or another.
Keyword here is little. My spreads attack and special special are a little bit better than your while at the same time your spread's HP and speed is a little bit better than mines. We both have something better than the another, but the margin is soo damn small it doesn't make a huge different in the end. Both spreads are wonderful made, they're no denying that now.

The only reason I'm soo worked up about your is this misguided belief that outspeeding Heatran is more important being able to withstand a few more attacks. If the main purpose of this project is to make a defensive Pokemon that can switch into the majority of the Top #5/10 Pokemon then why care so much about it's speed. One would have to sacrifice a ton of EVs just to outspeed Heatran, something that would leave you with a less defensive Pokemon or an offensively challenged Pokemon. In the end, I think people demand too much from a single Pokemon.
 
#23
No difference between the spreads is overwhelming. For the good, and for the bad. I just pointed out two things in my spread that are a little better, but there's nothing overwhelming. GT's attack is not overwhelmingly better either, nor it is his special attack. My HP isn't overwhelmingly better, and neither is my speed. But those are the differences, and those are the aspects people should consider when choosing one or another.

I could make myself sound more passionate about this, but really... They are VERY close.
 
#24
I really thought that once it came down to just the two of them, people would vote for Time Mage, but whatever. I guess 5 points of speed isn't really worth getting that worked up about anyway.

G_T, (why do people do that when there's no underscore under your name?,) you know you mah man.
 
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