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Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by dirkie, Dec 13, 2008.
This is our Pokémon:
Voted GT this time.
Voted Time Mage
Honestly it's like two super perts >_>
Time Mage not only outspeeds Heatran but has higher HP so takes Special hits better.
The two spreads are pretty similar though.
I can image Swampert coming in this forum now and upon seeing this poll would have it's feelings hurt. Poliwrath already wants to file a complain for being not only replaced but ignored for 4 generations straight. Be prepared for both Pert and Wrath to whip out their picket signs and rally in front of the CAP server.
voted Time Mage
I'm disappointed none of the super high HP spreads made it through.
Voted Time Mage, as it outspeeds Heatran.
This poll looks like its going to be close.
Never did understand the need to outrun Heatran anyway. Heatran can't do much of anything to use excuse pray for a burn hax from Fire Blast or something. You would need to invest a large amount of EVs into speed just to outpace it and that just leave less room for defensive purpose. If I have forseen this near-global desire to be just another bulky CB/LO user instead of a decentralizer like everyone was made to believe speed might have been boosted a bit. Whatever the case, at the time I never thought beating Heatran in a foot race was this important to everyone. Everyone seem to want more than offered, even when it comes to Pokemon.
Voted for GT, as usual.
Time Mage's is still good.
And my vote puts Time Mage in the lead 15-14 :D
You know, in the first poll, someone mentioned that our spreads were just buffed versions of Poliwrath. I didn't remember Poliwrath's stats at all, so I checked them and... Wow. Either spread could pass as the spread of a Poliwrath evolution (yeah, I know, 3rd stage pokémon). Anyway, I think we did a good job with our distributions.
Now, why people should vote my spread? Well, it has two adavtages over GT's:
a) Can outspeed Heatran if you feel it necessary. Normally, that shouldn't be an issue, but the choice exists. 80 Speed also allows it to tie with Togekiss... Which is not the best of ideas, but it's certainly better than being outsped in a desperate situation.
b) My spread's Special Tankiness is a bit higher, which helps taking better Stratagem's Thunderbolts and Giga Drains (and those will probably be paired with LO as I noted in my calculations). If my spread can avoid being 2HKOed by those two moves with lower defensive EVs investment, then the remaining EVs and nature are free for other stats, like speed or attack. Also, it has a decent chance at surviving a Timid LO Zapdos TB with just 252 HP evs and no positive nature. It could help in sticky situations (But don't try to rely on that!!).
Other than that, both spreads are obviously very close, so just judge what approach you like more, and vote!
Don't really care for speed too much but if your going in the 70's might as well hit 78. Too bad none are guaranteed to survive a CSpecsModest 252 Sp.Atk Zapdos, (well at least I don't think so) not that it really matters though, this poke will still make it alot easier to counter it since you can now place a member on your team with it in mind without having to worry about the others.
Voted Time Mage but there's not really much seperating the two.
Voted for G_T for the special attack.
Edit: Lol at a water type surviving a 252 SpA Choice Specs Thunderbolt from Zapdos, unless it's Lanturn it's not happening.
Lol, these are practically the same. Would be funny if we combined them and took the average of every stat rounded up.
108 HP / 108 Atk / 93 Def / 68 SAtk / 100 SDef / 78 Spd = 555
To me, outspeeding Heatran isn't all that necessary. You already can take whatever Heatran can throw at you except for Explosion and maybe HP Electric/Grass, why the need to outbest it in a race. You also have to factor in switching into the wrong move, Burn hax from FB, it basically switching out into something that can wall you all day long, and etc... Then they're the chance of it packing a priority for it's ass, making the need for high speed all but not important. I don't see the need in it outspeed one specific over than need for more defense/better offensive strength.
The only advantage I'm willing to admit it has. Five points in HP makes a big different when it comes to taking hits from the special side.
People voting for the higher speed spread to outspeed Heatran are a very misguided, unless they plan on maxing Speed and running a Choice Scarf on this guy. And even for non Choice Scarfed versions, which are by far the most common, pretty much every Heatran invests heavily in speed, so you're gonna have to do the same, which will cut down severely on your defensive and offensive capabilities, which are the main merits of this Pokemon as far as I can tell. While you can give it the base stats to be faster than Heatran, you have to realize that realistically, given the constraint of EVs, you can't make this guy faster than Heatran, able to take on Thunderbolts from Zapdos, and able to OHKO Heatran all at the same time. Obviously you all know this, so take it into account when choosing a spread.
Lol i just voted for TimeMage because i thought Gotic Togekiss would be a dark version of Togekiss pretty stupid from me lol. If someone would like to change that, it would be awesome. Outspeeding Heatran isn't necessary. And the Special Attack can be handy so ...
Voted Gothic Togekiss
Were it not also the fact that 75 Base Speed is midling at best anyway, being beaten by a whole bunch of unsavory things (the whole lot of Mamoswine, Blaziken, and Medicham come to mind.). Heck, I made and voted for higher speed than that, but apparently the community disagreed so...
In any event, theres a bunch of things that potentially counter this floating around at 80 speed, among them Gardevoir/Gallade, Grumpig, Meganium, Togekiss, Venusaur, and Dragonite.
But nobody listens to Deck Knight >_>
heh, thats cool. itd be happy with that spead too.
I wouldn't be switching into Medicham anytime soon. Taking Hi Jump Kick, Psycho Cut, and Thunder Punch from that bastard isn't my cup of tea regardless on if you could outspeed it or not, beside aren't most Medicham scarfed? Mamoswine can potentially 2HKO with CB Earthquake you regardless of which spread you chose and Mamo does have the option of switching out from harms way? Togekiss could either Thunder Wave you upon switching in then flinch-hax you to death, Air slash you and flee, or fucking use a Choice Scarf of it's own and flinch-hax you to death....again. I can only assume the rest of the listed pokemon to do something harmful to CAP6 regardless if you could outspeed them or not. Oh sure, having high speed is great and all but we got to remember that both you and your opponent have the ability to switch out upon seeing the first sign of danger, having that high speed doesn't mean much.
Keyword here is little. My spreads attack and special special are a little bit better than your while at the same time your spread's HP and speed is a little bit better than mines. We both have something better than the another, but the margin is soo damn small it doesn't make a huge different in the end. Both spreads are wonderful made, they're no denying that now.
The only reason I'm soo worked up about your is this misguided belief that outspeeding Heatran is more important being able to withstand a few more attacks. If the main purpose of this project is to make a defensive Pokemon that can switch into the majority of the Top #5/10 Pokemon then why care so much about it's speed. One would have to sacrifice a ton of EVs just to outspeed Heatran, something that would leave you with a less defensive Pokemon or an offensively challenged Pokemon. In the end, I think people demand too much from a single Pokemon.
Voted Time Mage.
No difference between the spreads is overwhelming. For the good, and for the bad. I just pointed out two things in my spread that are a little better, but there's nothing overwhelming. GT's attack is not overwhelmingly better either, nor it is his special attack. My HP isn't overwhelmingly better, and neither is my speed. But those are the differences, and those are the aspects people should consider when choosing one or another.
I could make myself sound more passionate about this, but really... They are VERY close.
I really thought that once it came down to just the two of them, people would vote for Time Mage, but whatever. I guess 5 points of speed isn't really worth getting that worked up about anyway.
G_T, (why do people do that when there's no underscore under your name?,) you know you mah man.
Time Mage because 5 speed points matter.