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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 9 - Counters Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by darkie, Dec 14, 2008.

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  1. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
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    This is our Pokémon:
    Type: Water / Fight
    Ability: Unaware
    Stats: 105 HP / 110 Atk / 95 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 75 Spe

    For the record, the current top 10 on the CAP server are:
    1. Stratagem
    2. Revenankh
    3. Fidgit
    4. Tyranitar
    5. Zapdos
    6. Syclant
    7. Blissey
    8. Heatran
    9. Scizor
    10. Pyroak

    In this thread, we discuss what we think should counter this guy. There is no poll; it is simply a discussion so that we know what we want and the movepool threads do not become clogged up.

    The Art Poll should be happening now, but since we're moving so fast with the substantial aspects of this guy, I'll making a few changes to the Order of Events on the fly.
  2. SgtWoodsy

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    Zapdos.

    I'll think of some others later.
  3. Darkflagrance

    Darkflagrance

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    The analysis for Poliwrath lists Skarmory and Gyarados as counters.

    Cresselia and the pixies are also viable counters.

    99% of defensive bulky waters are also counters of sorts. Most competitive teams will have one.

    Just as this guy stops Revenakh stat-ups, Revenakh can still stall with Shedrest if we don't give this guy a decent 50% recovery move.

    This is enough; Zapdos would be fine as a circumstantial counter; we don't need to depend on its being countered by Zapdos to be balanced.

    That means that physical Ice moves will be perfectly acceptable.
  4. tennisace

    tennisace
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    Zapdos. This should be it's biggest counter. That means no Rock-type moves of any kind, and no physical Ice-type moves at all. That also means Togekiss and Skarmory would work pretty well also. The Rotom forms should also be in that category. Other than that, it's fair game. Salamence is good, Celebi is good. I'm going to say definatly no Ice-type moves for this reason, because then it becomes quite tricky.
  5. Fishin

    Fishin
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    Celebi is a big one, resists both STABs and isn't weak to anything this is likely to carry except Ice.

    Zapdos is there, but given this Pokemon's purpose (decentralizer), typing (most water-types get Ice moves, most Fighters get Rock moves) and the fact that Zapdos is in the top 5, giving it Rock or Ice attacks to threaten Zapdos on the switch is something that we'll likely see. Still, Thunderbolt is going to hurt a lot.

    Skarmory can hit it with Brave Bird/Drill Peck, is neutral to all moves, and has enough bulk to shrug off pretty much anything CaP 6 can throw at it (plus it has Whirlwind to stop stat-boosters).

    Gyarados resists both STABs and lowers attack with Intimidate, but can't DD due to Unaware and gets hurt by Rock attacks. Salamence is more dangerous offensively but also has Ice attacks to worry about.

    Also, the Steel/Psychics (Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong to a lesser extent) are tough enough to come in on unboosted attacks and threaten with Psychic/Zen Headbutt.

    Pyroak can potentially work decently. Despite a Rock weakness, it has tons of Defense and HP, and Grass STAB to work with.
  6. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
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    Just a note: this is a discussion, so make sure you use good reasoning in your posts.
  7. -Zer0-

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    Venusaur seems like it could take it.
  8. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    Celebi doesn't really care about even a Max Attack Ice Punch from CAP6 with 252 HP, 220 Defense, Bold. But I think, that as long as we're going to the trouble of giving DDMence the finger with Unaware, we should at least give the option of beating it down. Just because it's not in the top ten doesn't mean CAP6 can't be able to deal with it.

    But, Celebi, Zapdos, Togekiss, Skarm, Rotom, uhh... probably Cresselia to some extent, since STAB supereffective Psychic hurts even without any investment. Most other bulky Psychics could probably take it too, hoping it's not going to get anything like U-Turn.

    Celebi - Resists both STABS and has two supereffective STABs against CAP6.

    Zapdos - resists Fighting, has a strong Thunderbolt. Might have to watch for Stone Edge, especially with SR in play.

    Togekiss - Not quite as good as Zapdos in these respects. Stone Edge can 2HKO it with SR up, but threatening a STAB Air Slash and a slightly higher Speed helps Togekiss in this regard.

    Skarm - STAB Flying move can hurt. High physical Defense helps it sponge hits from a bulky spread, maybe a little tougher from an offensively oriented hitter, but in most cases it could probably win.

    Rotom - Immune to Fighting, can take a Waterfall in most cases, and boasts STAB Thunderbolt.

    Cress/Slowbro/etc. - Resists one (and in some cases two) STAB, and can hit back with a STAB Psychic, which can still hurt (Cress' unboosted Psychic is a 3HKO) if CAP6 hasn't bothered to invest in Special Defense. Even if it has, CAP6 could probably be beaten down if we're not giving it a recovery move... though a recovery move could probably be really helpful for it.
  9. Gothic Togekiss

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    This depends on which moves CAP6 get. Fire Blast/Thunder coming from 176 SpA(Neutral nature, 0 EVs, no boosting item) can 2HKO Skarm. I'm aware that it most likely not be possible for everyone to accept giving it a fire or electric move but competitive belief [should be] above flavor issue so you do have to worry about that.

    You might have to also be aware of Thunder and possibly Fire Punch into the mix. Constant pegging from both moves could led to it's demise.

    Adamant 252 CAP6 using Thunder/Fire Punch vs 252/156 Impish Skarm: 43.71% - 51.50%
    Life Orb version: 37.72% - 44.91%
    Choice Band version: 43.71% - 51.50% (55.95% of 2HKO when SR and Leftoever are added)
  10. polelover44

    polelover44

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    Well barring U-Turn and Ice Fang/Punch, Celebi would effectively wall/counter it.
  11. 1059860

    1059860

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    Slowbro/Slowking:

    They both resist BOTH of CAP6's STAB moves as well as Ice moves. In return, they can power or up or hit back with STAB Psychic moves for Super Effective damage.
  12. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    Unaware makes this part unworkable. The rest is true, though. Too bad Slowbro only saw some 39 uses last month. ._.
  13. gorm

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    I don't think giving it boltbeam punches makes it unstoppable at all, but maybe make sure it can't have both at once? celebi still gets by it either way barring a choice band set. even then adamant cb ip struggles to 2hko with rocks down while celebi easily 2hkos (unless we give this a tiny weight). jirachi also beats both combos pretty easily minus boosting

    the point is if we force the choice of water/fight/ice or water/fight/electric, either gyarados/skarm beat it, or zapdos/mence beat it.

    I'd rather not give it stone edge, if we do that leaves skarm/celebi/jirachi to stand alone against it x__x
  14. Gothic Togekiss

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    But aren't the Elemental punches Tutor moves once again due to Platinum. Wouldn't it be hard to force that kind of choice onto people if you could learn both move at the same time? Seem to be an all or nothing deal with the Elemental punches.

    I would have to agree with no Stone edge for the purposes of saving a few possible counters from extinctions, but what about Rock Slide? Is Rock Slide a safe move for it or is all physical rock moves a no no?
  15. Urza

    Urza

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    well, ninetales can only learn energy ball via breeding, even though it's a tm. not quite the same, but it is a precedent...
  16. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
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    GT, your calcs are wrong.

    Fire Punch on 252/0 Skarm: (35.93% - 42.51%)
    With Life Orb: (46.71% - 55.09%) - 99.41% chance of 2HKO with SR and Leftovers
    With Choice Band: (53.89% - 63.47%) - 100% chance of 2HKO

    but no one uses 252/0 skarm, so here they are with 252/252+
    normal: (27.54% - 32.93%)
    LO: (35.93% - 42.51%)
    CB: (40.72% - 48.50%) - 5.79% chance of 2HKO with SR and Leftovers

    Will-O-Wisp Gallade also.
  17. Cartoons!

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    This Pokemon's stat distribution is so similar to Poliwrath's that we could probably assume that anything that can handle the first can handle the second, which is a fairly sizeable list going from Parasect and up.

    CAP6 isn't going to be short on Pokemon that can threaten it, so I'm very much against not giving it Stone Edge. Zapdos has it good enough as it is, it doesn't need a completely risk-free ride when switching in.
  18. Gothic Togekiss

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    Darkie- I used 252/156 Impish Skarm for the calcs actually but thanks for noticing. I never seen nor heard anything use Max/Max Skarm before.

    Well BP of a move make up much of the bulk when determine how much damage a Pokemon delivers/receives. With Ice Punch, it would have to run Adamant, max attack, and Life Orb just to 2HKO with SR up. Now with Stone Edge, it could only need 108 attack netural natured to gain a 2HKO from the bird. Stone Edge would make really hard for Zapdos to counter it, thought it still make a strong check.
  19. Elevator Music

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    Wouldn't they kick in after CAP6 switches out/faints though? Not tht you should let Slowbro set up, or not revenge kill it with Tyranitar something (though I'm not entirely certain CBTar actually OHKO's.

    Slowbro needs some use. It'd make a decent counter to it without U-Turn or Thunder Punch or something of the sort.
  20. 1059860

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    Well Magmortified:

    I did forget about Unaware, but even though, STAB Psychic on top of 2 resisted STABs make it great counter, especially Slowbro who has better Defense to make up for CAP 6's greater Attack.

    It can also carry Focus Blast to predict a switch of Tyranitar. Unless CB, Pursuit shouldn't kill Slowbro, and can always Slack Off later. Other than that, Yawn can really force switches, which is also good when Spikes/SR are in play.

    Maybe after this thing gets implimented, the usages will go up.

    Other than that, Toxicroak is immune to STAB Water while resists STAB Fighting. On the offensive side, it has access to ThunderPunch for a Super Effective hit, Ice Punch to hit things like Zapdos, and Brick Break for Tyranitar. It is also faster than CAP 6.
  21. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    You can only speak of counters once you know the complete movepool of the Pokemon, but anyway.

    Assuming only a Water and a Fighting move, these would be counters: Celebi, Tentacruel (though he's frail defensively), Salamence, Dragonite. Gyarados can also switch in with impunity but cannot do anything worthwhile to it except Earthquake.
  22. Mekkah

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    I'd rather it wasn't helpless against those Rotom forms, though Waterfall should do enough to them to force them to Resttalk to stay alive.

    Don't care much if it has Stone Edge or not, Zapdos Roosts off worse things than that. Ice Punch may be a little too much for its overall coverage...but I don't think it'd make it too strong.
  23. Slapjax

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    Well, seeing as it is supposed to be a decentralizer, i think that it's quite important that CAP6 can stop all the dragon dancers. It can handle ttar pretty well with stabbed fighting moves, so that's not an issue. So pretty much all that's left are Salamence, Gyarados, and kingdra.

    I don't think we should give it a dragon move, so kingdra won't be getting OHKO'd, but do to unaware it will still probably eventually get killed.

    As for gyara, i think tpunch is certainly acceptable, but is a bit odd on a water type. Can you imagine Charizard or Heatran using surf? I didn't think so. This leaves Rock type moves as the only alternative. Because rock slide is so weak and this pokemon's attack is so high, i recommend stone edge. This can also somewhat help in the Zapdos/ Skarmory/ Mence department.

    As for countering salamence, I think that giving it ice punch may be unneccessary. Ice punch could potentially offset the balance of power by allowing this pokemon to more easily hit gliscor and other defensive pokemon. Perhaps we should allow it to have ice shard only. It would still allow it to beat mence, and stone edge kills zapdos better anyway.

    I imagine this guy with a set like

    Cap6@ leftovers

    Waterfall/ Aqua tail
    Rockslide/ Stone edge
    ice shard/ brick break (probably not bb because ttar gets worked by waterfall anyway)
    recovery/ status/ filler
    So then, with this set how does he fare against the top ten?

    1. Stratagem (Strat can't come in, but tbolt may be a problem)
    2. Revenankh (With recovery it can pretty much beat every kind)
    3. Fidgit (not much to counter, but it does kill fidgit easily)
    4. Tyranitar (STAB fighting moves ftw)
    5. Zapdos (again, can't come in, and without speed ev's gets wrecked by SE)
    6. Syclant (neutral to fighting, but rock destroys it. Not sure how CAP6 will fare if Syclant gets a tail glow)
    7. Blissey (LOLfucked)
    8. Heatran (destruction)
    9. Scizor says, "Thank you sir, may I have another?
    10. Pyroak (CAP6 isn't really a good counter)
  24. ninja death strike

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    I think that if it doesn't get access to ice or rock moves it's going to be too easy to wall. It might end up only running two move types anyhow once we see the other moves it will get access too. I think leaving either ice and/or rock moves it will give it decent options, but not break it at all.

    Celebi, Cresselia, and Bulky Waters (even though they may not be able to do a whole lot back without HP electric) will all still do a good job of countering it.
  25. latinoheat

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    Gonna add Starmie to the list, resists both stab's and can hit back with thunderbolt or psychic.

    Personally i believe this has more then enough counters to allow at least an Ice move
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