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CAP meta viability ranking thread

Discussion in 'CAP Metagame' started by Vryheid, Apr 19, 2014.

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  1. EternalSnowman

    EternalSnowman

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    Heatran normally only runs Lava Plume or Earth Power for attacking moves, as common support sets will not have enough moveslots for anything else. There are 4 attack sets which are rarer, but normally choiced.
  2. heartofgold

    heartofgold

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    Gardevoir also doesn't really need taunt to beat Heatran, Trace/Focus Blast handle that just fine. It's more a utility move for other threats. As Snowman said, generally people run defensive sets with Lava Plume, Earth Power, and two of Will o' Wisp/Stealth Rock/Roar/Sub. EP doesn't hit Gardy hard enough to do anything without VERY good luck getting Focus Blast misses.

    That said, I've been goofing off with throwing Flash Cannon on SpD Heatran (having run the thing in Theorymon back when Mismagius was a whole thing), and it's....interesting. You generally really miss whatever support move you drop (Earth Power is too valuable to lose, as it hard counters Mollux), but if you have BIG fairy problems it can do good work. Requires some SpA EVs to be effective, though.

    On the subject of viability rankings, Clefable could probably use a bump. That thing is the bane of my CAP-existence. There is some crossover with Arghonaut (who has the benefit of being able to use Whirlwind), but the Fairy typing is really what makes it shine. Pre-Volkraken, at least, Fairies are monsters in the CAP tier, as a huge chunk of CAP-mons are weak to them, and Clefable is no exception. Combine that with the ability to shutdown the many set-up sweepers that run around, and being one of the best Aurumoth counters on the planet, and you've got at least an A- mon.
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
    turd bunny likes this.
  3. Vryheid

    Vryheid fudge jelly

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    So I've been playtesting and doing some number crunching on Pyroak, and I've had mixed reactions to it. It's probably unique among CAPmon in that its best set is clearly exactly the same as it has been since its creation in Gen 4:

    Pyroak @ Life Orb
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Flare Blitz
    - Wood Hammer
    - Earthquake

    In practice it definitely feels like a product of its era, a time when Pokemon like Mega Pinsir and Talonflame weren't around to OHKO it at any point in the match and when Skarm/Bliss/Cune still formed the key defensive core for many teams. 70 attack seems atrocious, but with the sheer power of Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer and Life Orb backing it up, it can still deal a great deal of damage to many defensive cores. I think what gave it some appeal then and still does today is it that it has great defensive typing and just enough bulk, speed and power to win one-on-one against the vast majority of Pokemon in OU and the CAP tier. Back then popular gen 4 threats like Scizor, Gengar and Heatran had no chance against Pyroak, and even max HP Tyranitar (probably one of it's best checks) feared a potential OHKO from an unboosted Wood Hammer. For perspective, this Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer does slightly more damage to neutral targets than an Earthquake from Scarf Garchomp.

    The original strategy article rightly points out that in the CAP meta Pyroak has a number of advantageous matchups as well, which make it very reliable as a bulky sweeper. Krilowatt, Colossoil, Kitsunoh, and Arghonaut were listed then as CAPmons with bad individual matches against Pyroak, and it can still reliably force out the vast majority of CAPmons today. Of all the CAPmons, only Stratagem, Tomohawk, and maybe Revenankh can claim to check a full health Pyroak reliably.

    So with all these great traits, why are people not using Pyroak on every team? It's main issue is while it has great matchups against most of the CAP Pokemon, it has a lot of terrible matchups against offensive Pokemon which are extremely popular right now in OU. Specifically, the Charizards, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Latios, Latias, Dragonite, Kyurem-B, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Tornadus T, and Mega Venusaur can come into most or all of Pyroak's moves and batter it down before it can ever get a sweep off the ground. Even the dreaded mixed Landorus will beat it, as Pyroak's pitiful base 60 Speed means that it will get 2HKO by Earth Power despite doing more damage back simply because it gets outsped.

    The best niche of Pyroak now is the same as it was in gen 4- a dedicated stallbreaker on bulky offense teams. While 60 speed is pretty terrible, it IS enough that at the EVs listed above it is faster than any uninvested Base 91 speed Pokemon, which allows it to outpace most of the bulky CAP walls that are extremely prevalent in the tier. Some major threats it can outspeed include Tomohawk, Cyclohm, Mollux, Necturna, Arghonaut, Chansey, Blissey, Quagsire, Heatran, Skarmory, and Clefable. This gives it a lot of utility against popular stall cores, as most of the special walls in the tier can't take boosted Flare Blitzes and most of the physical walls get overwhelmed or hit supereffectively by coverage moves. It also has the bulk to tank a few non-supereffective STAB attacks from practically any Pokemon, allowing it to take down even some fast revenge killers that try to prevent this sweep from winning the game

    Unfortunately, as a stallbreaker it tends to miss a lot of key OHKOs, which massively hinder it's reliability. Some of the most common walls it fails to run through are also some of the most problematic:

    Damage Calcs (open)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 493-581 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 265-315 (63 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Tomohawk (with Intimidate): 231-274 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 157-185 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 235-278 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Pyroak Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Arghonaut: 281-330 (67.8 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    The point here is not that it can't work as a stallbreaker, but that you need to save it for late game or at least significantly soften up an opponent's stall core before attempting to sweep. And you need a team that actually needs help beating stall cores to begin with, something a lot of Pyroak users fail to consider.

    I think what gives this Pokemon a lot of appeal is that grass/fire typing. Ground and Ice type attacks are very common in the tier, and being neutral to both while still dealing those powerful STAB attacks is a big plus in its favor. That being said, it has such a hard time switching in to many threats, has very little utility outside of a stallbreaking role, and gets wrecked so easily by Tomohawk that I still think it's usually not worth a slot on top tier ladder teams.

    From the discussion here, in the chat, and what I've found experimenting with Pyroak, I feel like the best course of action is to keep it where it is for now. However, just looking at the developments in the meta from when it was last made, I'm putting in a few changes:

    moving Gyarados Mega up to B- rank
    moving Sableye down to C+ rank
    moving Gliscor, Rotom-Wash up to B- rank
    Added Cloyster at C+ rank


    While I tend to agree with you, Pokemon like Aegislash and Mega Mawile are extremely popular on CAP teams these days and require very little effort to either set up on or straight up OHKO Clefable no matter what it does. Heatran/Mollux also tend to be a nightmare for Clefable to deal with, as it can't escape being Roared out or slammed by Sludge Bomb. Also, the value of an Aurumoth "counter" is questionable, as Illusion can often guarantee that you will NOT be sending in Clefable as it sets up and it still gets nearly 2HKO by Life Orb Psyshock. Most people deal with Aurumoth simply by checking it, which isn't all that hard to do. Clefable is a really nice hard stop to some of the big specially offensive threats in the tier, but does it have much utility beyond that? I'm not really sure, to be honest.

    This is some interesting discussion on Heatran, and while I haven't done enough research to say anything informative on the subject, I'd be interested in your experiences using the Pokemon in a tier dominated by threats like Cyclohm, Chansey and Colossoil. I'm also curious if anyone thinks Mollux, Mega Mawile, or Cresselia should be moved up a rank. They all tend to have extremely useful niches in countering certain Pokemon, but all also have extremely exploitable weaknesses (they all pretty much get wrecked by Collossoil, for starters).
  4. JigglykongisFUM16

    JigglykongisFUM16

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    I don t really see why Gyarados-mega should be moved up. Tomo, syclant, krillo, and most of the capmons keep it pretty much useless, even if it gets a dragon dance or moxie boost. It can be killed relatively quickly and isn't a reliable late game sweeper.
  5. finnaggann

    finnaggann

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    voodoom should be b- at least he is a great way to deal with cyclohm and can work well with water types like argonaut to get a free special boost to further screw cyclohm and krillowatt as well. I use him as a lead to do damage and cause a switch then I switch to arghonaut hopefully draw out an electric type switch in to voodoom and strike back with a free boost.
  6. EternalSnowman

    EternalSnowman

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    Voodoom has a heavy weakness to fairies, so it is much like Hydreigon. Right now, since Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir exist (Although not as much in CAP), as well as many fairies such as Azumarill, Togekiss and Mega-Mawile, it is easily shut down. The pokemon you can compare it the most to is Hydreigon, but Hydreigon can at least pull off Mixed Choice Scarf Sets, with access to U-Turn and Physical Moves such as Superpower to bypass some of its "Counters".
  7. heartofgold

    heartofgold

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    Heatran's a good 'mon that hates how everything in the tier gets Earth Power as coverage. It's a nice counter to some common threats (Mollux, Talonflame, most fairies, most Aurumoth sets), and of the things you mentioned, Vry, it only really loses proper to Chansey. Defensive Cyclohm can't do much damage with T-bolt and loses to Earth power, and I haven't seen an Offensive Cyc in ages. Colossoil requires a counter in the wings to support Heatran, but Rebound users hate repeated Lava Plumes to the face, with their burn chance, and Guts gives you a chance to throw up rocks on the switch. Requires some predicting, but thatsd doable. Over all, Heatran's a textbook B-mon - it counters certain threats, but needs team support to really shine, and is in no way the kind of catch-all special wall Chansey is. Actually, Heatran is about even with Malaconda (who makes a good partner).

    On the subject of other mons:
    Mollux is probably fine where it is. The CM set is probably its best bet, but it lacks the speed to really cause serious damage, and it has a few hard counters. A- is spot on.

    Cress I guess could slot in one higher at B, but over all it's held back by an extremely meh typing and a big weakness to Colossoil. Again, CM seems like its best bet, but like Mollux it only gets two moves for coverage, leaving it with some BIG holes to fill. It handily stops non-toxic Tomo, though, which counts for a lot.

    Voodoom, even with the Lightingrod boost, just doesn't hit hard enough, at least in my experience (It wants Modest for damage and Timid for speed and can't have both). On top of that, it suffers from the same problems the old Gyaravire combo did back in Gen 4 - anyone that knows the meta will see it coming from miles away. If I've got Cyc, and there's a Voodoom on the other team, I'm just mashing Dragon Pulse. Can you take advantage of this? Sure. But it's still predictable as all hell. Oh, and fairies just RUIN Voodom's day, and considering they're all over the place in the CAP meta, C's probably about right. A re-rank when Volkraken drops would not be ill-advised.

    Also, having played around with it, I'm beginning to see the light on Mega-Gardevoir. It hits like a truck, and can just pick apart unprepared teams. Heatran is in no way a good wall, and in general that aren't many things that are. I'd say A- would probably be about right, it's at leas up there with Landy in terms of damage potential.
  8. JigglykongisFUM16

    JigglykongisFUM16

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    I just don't see gardevoir-mega being that popular due to how frail it is. I wouldn't move it up to A-. Sylveon can talk a few hits usually with a Max HP set and kill with hyper voice effectively, especially with specs/pixie plate. Cawmodore can counter mega gardevoir pretty easily, but however, if u try to belly drum a cawmodore to my Sylvy, it gets a mouth load of hyper beam and dies.

    I think Sylveon should be moves up to B+ Or A- due to it's effectiveness to stay in battles more often. It's role as a wish/heal bell also helps. Access to quick attack is also helpful, so it can stop things like syclant without. taking too much damage

    Cress should definitely be moved up because even against it's weaknesses it can set up screens that will last a while. Also, Lunar dance comes in handy if restoring PP and HP, and status conditions late game. It's sheer bulk is a monster.
  9. Vryheid

    Vryheid fudge jelly

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    You know what, as much use as you may get out of Hyper Beam it's pretty hard for me to consider it more than a silly gimmick.

    Is it really worth surprising Cawmodore while simultaneously allowing Syclant or Aurumoth to get up a free Tail Glow?
  10. heartofgold

    heartofgold

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    I can sort of see Hyper Beam. It's got an EXTREMELY high opportunity cost, but netting a KO on Caw is definitely worth looking into. But I can't see any justification for Quick Attack. That's just a waste of a move slot. If Sashed Syclant is causing you that many problems, you may want to just consider Clefable. Sylveon has such an awesome support movepool, I don't know why you'd give up Wish-passing or Status clearing for something so situational and ineffective.
  11. EternalSnowman

    EternalSnowman

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    Mega-Gardevoir hits harder and is faster than Sylveon, and with Psyshock in secondary STAB with Focus Blast as coverage, it is a force to be reckoned with, the thing that sets Mega-Gardevoir apart in CAP is that it can beat many common threats, and is not as much of a 'waste' of a mega slot. In OU there are normally better megas to use such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Mega Venusaur and Mega Charizard Y. In conclusion, I would nominate Mega Gardevoir for A- ranking.
  12. JigglykongisFUM16

    JigglykongisFUM16

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    Actually if u use the correct item(pixie plate or specs) Sylveon hits harder than gardevoir, I've tested it.

    Even tho gardevoir had psyshock it doesn't do enough damage to chanseys to bring up real threats to the staller, plus stoss does about 35-40% damage.
  13. Da Pizza Man

    Da Pizza Man

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    Sylveon would much rater like Leftovers though.
  14. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    The advantage Garedvoir has in the Chansey matchup is Taunt. Even if Chansey goes straight for the SToss, the worst that happens is you severely cripple it. You have to remember, it is the special wall, and you are the special attacker. It wants to switch into you, and thanks to taunt, it struggles with that. Sure, if it is at nearly full health, it can KO before you can KO it. But if it is weakened, it will lose. And unlike against most special attackers, even if it wins, it is nearly dead, and likely taunted, which, depending on the opponent's team, could be even worse.
  15. JigglykongisFUM16

    JigglykongisFUM16

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    Well, if u want to sweep with Sylveon, I would rather have my item.


    And jas, I've battled with Chansey against gardevoir in OU, and it doesn't seem to do that much damage (psyshock that is)
  16. heartofgold

    heartofgold

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    252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 207-244 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 8.4% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 228-268 (32.3 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO

    Mega Gardevoir all but needs Modest to 3HKO, and it needs to get a good taunt predict in. As Jas said, even if you don't succeed it leaves Chansey in a bad spot, low on health and taunted, but overall I wouldn't say Gardevoir BEATS Chansey, just handles it better. Which, for a special sweeper, ain't half bad.

    In terms of Sylveon v. Gardevoir, it's also a question of other counters as well, though. Yes, Chansey is a pretty good answer to Garde even with taunt, but Chansey's a FLAWLESS counter to Sylveon, especially if it's running an offensive set light on support moves. Meanwhile, Gardevoir beats both Mollux and Heatran hard, two all-purpose fair checks and viable CAP-Meta mons, while Sylveon only really stands a chance if it runs HP Ground, which again cuts into its valuable support movepool and is, generally, a lackluster move. On top of THAT, Sylveon's lacking in the speed department. Yes, it has better bulk than Gardevoir, but it NEEDS that bulk, as it will be taking hits, and without either wish or lefties, its survivability is frankly not that much better than Gardevoir's. In fact, one of the main reasons to use Sylveon is that it gets HP recovery in some form or another, something that Gardevoir has no access to (and desperately wants).

    Again, this isn't to say Garde is BETTER (or even more viable) than Sylveon. It's just a better sweeper. Realistically, the two serve VASTLY different roles. Sylveon is better served as a tank and cleric, keeping its team healthy with beefy wishes and status-clearing, while also being able to punish switch-ins with Hyper Voice, which frankly hits harder than any wall has a right to. Garde should be outspeeding and KOing, sweeping teams once opposing priority users have been cleared. The comparison is apples to oranges. Just because two 'mons have the same ability doesn't mean they do the same things.
  17. JigglykongisFUM16

    JigglykongisFUM16

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    I would not say gardevoir beats heatran hard. Meh I still like Sylveon as my sweeper lol.

    252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 222-264 (79.8 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    What does gardevoir do that stops heatran? I know lots of people run rocks roar, but I still see plenty of these hyper offensive sets in battle too.
  18. Da Pizza Man

    Da Pizza Man

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    Problem is most people only use Lava Plume as an attack on their heatran, and trace gardevoir really does not care about that. Also Sylveon cant do "much" either to Heatran
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  19. Vryheid

    Vryheid fudge jelly

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    So, now that the CAP meta is back, we might as well start asking ourselves where Volkraken is going to fit in the meta.

    Has anyone tried slotting it into teams? I haven't had a whole lot of luck figuring out a team composition that can really take advantage of it. Part of the problem I have with it is that it compounds the unfortunately common CAP problem of having a severe weakness to ground types, especially with Pokemon like Cyclohm, Mollux, and Aegislash running all over the tier. I just really don't want to get rid of Pokemon like Mega Mawile or Krilowatt to make room for it. Mollux also has Recover to make up for its Stealth Rock weakness, while Volkraken simply has to expect to permanently lose a good chunk of health every time it comes in. I have found a few on the ladder, but I've never really had much difficulty walling it- a lot of the same shit that stops Mollux can handle Volkraken just fine. Specially defensive Cyclohm, Arghonaut and Chansey in particular can repeatedly switch into even the Choice Specs set. Krilowatt can tank a few hits as well, but lacks reliable recovery. Stratagem, Syclant, Fidgit and Kitsunoh are all faster and can hit it hard with supereffective coverage moves, making them good checks.

    I feel like it's most useful niches is on offensive teams looking for an offensive scarf lead to quickly force opponents on the defensive, as it can win 1v1 against a great number of opposing offensive threats (Charizard, Landorus, Deoxys S and Talonflame come to mind) while putting a huge amount of pressure on non-bulky switchins. The Scarf set has an unusual niche of being one of the best Aurumoth counters in the game, outspeeding and OHKOing it even after a Quiver Dance boost, while only fearing switching in on the extremely rare Thunder. It's also pretty good against Aegislash (if that wasn't obvious already). Finally, a 4x resistance to Bullet Punch means it can easily check non-Salac Cawmodore sets. If any of these are problematic threats for your team, Volkraken may be a nice choice. I also think it's a very good member on hyperoffensive rain teams, something I plan on experimenting on in the near future. Boosted Analytic Hydro Pumps in the rain do obscene amounts of damage even to stuff that resists it:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Rain: 273-321 (90.3 - 106.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

    Some other new shit I've seen or been trying out:

    -Sub-passing Tomohawk is an old-school set that does wonders against a lot of the common checks and traps used to pressure it out. The meta at the upper echelons of play is so heavily biased against Tomohawk that you might consider running this set instead of the usual Reflect/Haze shenanigans. Here's a replay where I manage to shut down two potentially deadly Gothitelle/Landorus switchins:

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-129206116

    -Scarf Mollux with Eruption is an interesting alternative to Volkraken that can OHKO a lot of stuff that usually forces Mollux out. Modest + Scarf allows you to outspeed Syclant and guarantee a OHKO on Landorus, though you can go for more speed if you want to stop Talonflame from U-turning out. You can throw on coverage moves or support like Trick/Stealth rock to give it more utility, I usually go for the latter.

    -Assault Vest Colossoil isn't something I've been using, but allows it to easily check special attackers like Krilowatt that would normally heavily threaten it with super effective moves. The bulk on this thing is immense- with enough investment it can tank a Specs Hydro Pump from Volkraken and hit back with a OHKO Earthquake. Good if you want more bulk/answers to Landorus on your team.

    -I've always been a big fan of specially defensive Cyclohm, and a Light Clay variant allows it to keep Light Screen up practically continually. Since the CAP meta has a much greater degree of specially offensive threats than OU, having a Light Screen up can allow your Pokemon to much more easily pad attacks that would otherwise potentially wipe out your team.
  20. HeaLnDeaL

    HeaLnDeaL Do the math
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    Regarding Volkraken, after 8 or so matches in the meta, it appears the scarf set functions decently. However, more often than using it for sweeping, I have found the a speedy memento can either help stop a boosting opponent or can help cripple a foe and let you get in a belly drum with an incoming Cawmodore. Overall, the synergy it has with Cawmodore is actually fairly nice, as Caw covers its ground and electric type weaknesses with some spiffy immunities (and Volkraken of course has a 4x resistance to cover Caw's fire weakness, and a 4x resistance to ice doesn't hurt either). All in all, where the OU meta may not have had a perfect core to put Volkraken into, I think the grand captain Cawmodore has the potential to give Volkraken a second life in the CAP meta... Or not. I guess time will tell.
  21. MQJinx

    MQJinx

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    Espeon needs to get out of here as its only niche in Baton Pass has been nerfed. (and being wrecked by Colossoil and losing boosts to Haze Tomohawk)
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
  22. heartofgold

    heartofgold

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    I disagree pretty strongly with your Cawmodore argument, actually. I do think it deserves a drop, but at the absolute worst it's a B+ mon, and frankly I'd keep it at A-. Yes, Caw is one-dimensional, and yes, it has counters. But here's the thing - if you lack one of those counters? If your Caw check has been, for whatever reason, weakened? You lose. Game over. Done. It's a one-mon win condition, which is something few things in this or any meta can boast. Caw also gets arguably the best attacking type in 6th Gen. Say what you will about needing coverage, but it gets a nuke, reliable recovery, and priority. That's a devastating combo. Yes, it's walled by mons whose whole job is to do just that - be premier physical walls. But anything that's not overloaded with physical bulk is going to take HARD shots. I'm not sure why you mention Mollux up there, there's no set it can run that lives through a +6 Acrobatics.

    The fact of the matter is, as long as you have Caw alive, your opponent NEEDS to play scared of it. It turns defensive mons into a liability, and means that you need to keep your physical counter of choice nearly perfectly healthy. It's also a bit funny to bring up the HazeHawk set as a reason Caw is something not up to snuff - Cawmodore is pretty much the ONLY reason to run Haze on Tomo. Sure, there's maybe one or two other moments where it sees utility, but the fact of the matter is you're taking an outstanding defensive mon, with countless better support options, and forcing it to run Haze just to check you. How is that not a top tier presence?

    Yes, Caw is ultimately one-dimensional. But a freight train is one dimensional too, and if you're out of roadblocks, you're going to get smashed to pieces. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if your opponent sees it coming - some would say that's an advantage. Got Caw on your team? Congrats, your opponent's Cyclohm now needs to live in fear of being below 50% health. Same goes for Tomo - it drops below 40%, and running Haze is a waste of time. It's not just that Caw is itself a devastatingly powerful sweeper - it forces your opponent to play around it as well. That's a dangerous mon.


    [​IMG] -> A+
    I'd also like to nominate a bump up for Landorus here (Incarnate, naturally). It's an A+ mon in my book, an absolute top tier threat that can dismantle teams with next to no trouble. The mixed set, in particular, is a force to be reckoned with. Earth Power does INSANE damage to anything that doesn't resist it, and Psychic allows it to Snipe a number of otherwise deadly threats. The true kicker, though, is Superpower, which allows it to abuse a whole slew of mons, including Chansey and AV Colossoil, that would otherwise counter it's primarily special set. It's also got a fantastic variety of coverage moves, including the always handy Knock Off, U-Turn for abusing switches, and my personal favorite Sludge Wave, which can make any Fairy's life a living hell.
    gday, FMD, Tadasuke and 2 others like this.
  23. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize and Blue Badge Set! :)
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    I'm a big fan of Cawmodore, and believe it should stay in the A+ tier.

    There is no Pokemon that can turn a battle around as quickly as Cawmodore can. Only Unaware Pokemon not named Arghonaut, Cyclohm, Prankster Haze Tomohawk, and Skarmory (at full health) want to deal with Cawmodore 1v1. Cawmodore is a metagame defining Pokemon: teams have to either carry a hard counter, keep their shaky counter at full health, or have their entire team prevent it from setting up. Gothitelle does a great job of taking out Cyclohm, Skarmory, and Tomohawk, 2HKOing the former and OHKOing the latter if it's running Choice Specs. I've beaten good players with Cawmodore before, and good players have beaten me with Cawmodore. Frail Pokemon are straight-up OHKO'd by a +6 Bullet Punch as well, and Bullet Punch can take out a weakened Tomohawk before it can Haze. Even if you do Prankster Haze the Cawmodore, it still beats 252/212+ Tomohawk by 2HKOing it with 110 BP Acrobatics:
    (252 Atk Cawmodore Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Tomohawk: 228-270 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

    Cawmodore might be a "cheap" mon in that it presents the most straightforward win condition in the CAP meta, but it's not a "noob mon". If you have one mon that Cawmodore can set up on and no dedicated counter, it's essentially game over if that Pokemon is 1v1 against a Cawmodore. If you misplay against Cawmodore and can't stop it from Belly Drumming, it's game over. If you let your Cawmodore counter get trapped (Gothitelle+Cawmodore is lethal), it's game over. It does not have 4-moveslot syndrome in the slightest; Drain Punch is the far superior option and it doesn't need both to sweep (it only needs one or the other). It's probably one of the two or three best offensive Pokemon in the CAP meta right now, and I'd put it in at least A+ tier.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  24. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Since we are on the topic of Cawmodore, I actually have to say I agree with wh0sy0urpapa that it is overrated. Now, I won't go so far as he did to saw something like B-, but I have never really been very impressed with it in the metagame, and the lower end of the A rankings is what I would deem far more appropriate. As people already mentioned, it is hard to wall, but those few things that do wall it are everywhere. What's more, it is arguably the hardest Pokemon to set up in the meta. Sure, it is a monster once set up, but 90% of the good Pokemon in the tier can hit it hard enough to stop that from happening. It can never set up on a special attacker. Even defensive ones that can only hit NVE, such as Sylveon, put it easily into revenging range (and can even KO with said NVE move if it is a more offensive build). Speaking of which, it is super easy to revenge. In my experience, the best scarfers in the meta all resist Bullet Punch and can easily OHKO. Additionally, there is a ton of other priority flying around, and a few other fast Pokemon that can take a hit and finish it off, like Greninja.

    Overall, I think the biggest reason people think it is better than it is is because of the way people play against it. Against many set up Pokemon, people take the time that it sets up to switch to a counter. While that can work if you have Cyclohm or Skarm or whatnot, if you do not, then it is folly. People switch to the closest thing they have to a counter, and it causes them to lose. When you see Caw, you need to attack it. It is very frail, and only hurts its own bulk more setting up. If played right, there will be very few situations where it sweeps you that you would not already be swept by other powerful set up sweepers.

    With that said, it is still a major threat. Because it is such a strong set up sweeper, the way you have to play against teams that have it is definitely more conservative. However, its actual individual threat level is not something I would put at the very top of the meta.
    FMD and Snobalt like this.
  25. Snobalt

    Snobalt is unironically into masochism
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    I will admit that I was being kinda harsh by asking to move Caw to B-. You have given me enough good points about it to make me think of it as more B+.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
    Tadasuke likes this.
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