CAP Metagame Discussion

[Rising_Dusk]

Introduction:

CAP revisions have gone live on the server, and so now we can begin playing the CAP metagame again. It doesn't take long to get acquainted with it again, but up 'til now we haven't really had any place to discuss the CAP metagame, how we feel about it, and what we think that we should do to manage it.

This isn't a PR or anything, this is just a place for people to discuss what they play, much like we have in any other tier's forum on-site. That said, a major part of what we're trying to accomplish by performing reversions, revisions, or whatever at all is to manage the CAP metagame. I am going to propose a few general improvements at the end of this thread that I think will 'improve' the general quality of the CAP metagame and balance it out a bit so that typical OU teams are not expertly maimed by even amateur CAP players.

Subjective Current Thoughts:

Stratagem

• Remove Technician
  This is kind of a bold claim here, but after playing a lot I feel like the absolute only reason that Stratagem is so hard to play around is the combination of Giga Drain, Flamethrower, Earth Power, and AncientPower on one set backed by Technician. Sure, he's weak to Ground-type moves now, but his sweeping ability thanks to immense Speed, Special Attack, and coverage is unrivaled. You need a dedicated special wall to take this guy down, or your offensive team is pretty much screwed.
• Remove Giga Drain / Energy Ball
  Stratagem's coverage is too overwhelming for offensive teams to handle without using a dedicated special wall, which is problematic for its fitting into OU properly. If we remove these coverage moves, it forces Stratagem to be checked by bulky Water-type Pokemon outside of Swampert, which might have issues with Hidden Power Grass. Vaporeon and Suicune becoming viable checks to Stratagem, however, is a massive boon to its fairness.

Krilowatt

• Remove Magic Guard
  This is really necessary, honestly. It allows Krilowatt to bypass so much and really take advantage of too much with its high Speed and legitimate power after free Life Orb boosts. Not only does this change force Krilowatt to be in-line with what he was intended to do, but it simultaneously removes his replacement of Starmie on offensive teams due to immunity to all forms of passive damage and immense balanced bulk.

Kitsunoh

• Change ShadowStrike
  Current SS: 80 BP / 95 ACC / 50% Def Drop
  Proposed SS: 80 BP / 100 ACC / 30% Def Drop
  
  I propose this because there is no reason why ShadowStrike should have a 1 in 2 chance of breaking through Pokemon that should normally check it very effectively, like Skarmory. Additionally, the 95% accuracy is trollish at best and doesn't really accomplish anything to balance it out besides pissing you off when you need it to hit and it doesn't. The boost in accuracy also slightly offsets the new 1 in 3 chance of the Defense drop.
• Make Kitsunoh's Attack stat 105
  This is a more personal dilemma than a serious issue, but I think that Kitsunoh's 103 Attack stat is pretty ridiculous! Okay, I can't really justify this one competitively, but it should happen anyway!

Your Turn:

What do you guys think? Those who have played the metagame know a lot about what's wrong with it, what's good with it, and what we'd all like to see happen. If you have any ideas for managing the metagame too, that'd be great. It's okay to have subjective revisions if we can justify them and not have them go back and forth ad infinitum. We need some definitive process for it in order for it to actually work. I personally think that we can get such a process and make these revisions work, but I'll open the floor to everyone else now to pose their own thoughts. Try not to think about it in terms of what you want, but what you think is fair and balanced and 'good' for the metagame at large.

 

[Deck Knight]

I agree with the current proposals, but would make a slight alteration to the Kitsunoh one. Make the Defense drop chance 30%, as there's no in-game predecent for 33% on anything.

I have a few other controversial proposals:

Pare Cyclohm, Arghonaut, and Collosoil down to 545 BST, using the following method:

Bold will be stat increases, Italics will be stat decreases.

Cyclohm:

HP: 105
Atk: 60
Def: 110
SpA: 115
SpD: 70
Spe: 85

Cyclohm tried to do too much at once when it was made and subsequently ended up fairly mediocre. This alteration drives it more towards offense and gives it a speed advantage over Dragonite, allowing it to revenge kill more effectively. It still retains a good deal of physical bulk.

Arghonaut:

HP: 105
Atk: 105
Def: 95
SpA: 70
SpD: 100
Spe: 70

This does nothing to Arghonaut's tanking ability, but makes it less of an offensive threat when it uses Bulk Up, it now has to invest in speed if it wants to Taunt Skarmory before hazards. Right now Argonaut not only shuts everything down, but it can perform a stat-up sweep of its own too easily, and Taunt every slow Pokemon before they can move unless they invest in amounts of Speed detrimental to their defensive roles.

Colossoil:
HP: 125
Atk: 125
Def: 70
SpA: 60
SpD: 70
Spe: 95

Colossoil as it currently stands is way too bulky. This enhances its Atk slightly and cuts its defenses by a decent margin. It's Atk and Speed combination are Colossoil's bread and butter.

Krillowatt can stay where it is if we remove Magic Guard, it doesn't really have excessive stats otherwise, and needs its stats to perform its concept.

Metagame Management:

Insofar as metagame management, we still need more data on reversions before I will say anything concrete, but as this is the endpoint of the 4th generation metagame I think our efforts should be focused on a final balance before settling into a permanent CAP OU.

 

[Raj]

I see no need to make any firther changes. While I do not think that Deck Knight's proposals will make too much of a difference, I'm opposed to the removal of Magic Guard and Technician. Levitate has its merits and there was once a day when nobody bar myself used Technician (I've still yet to use Levitate). These abilities can hardly be seen as broken.

 

[ssbbm]

I am opposed to the stat-changes of Cyclohm. Cyclohm, IMO, is an amazing tank, and a great stop to many pokemon. His concept, using a good but not properly distributed ability (Shield Dust / Static) works better with a tankish Pokemon. Shield Dust/Static doesn't help offensive pokemon- it helps defensive ones better.

And, since we're discussing revisions here kinda, I would like to comment on Pyroak. His main set now is the sub-seed set - it is really amazing with Toxic Spikes support.
oh and 50th post :D

 

[Luigifan]

I see no need to make any firther changes. While I do not think that Deck Knight's proposals will make too much of a difference, I'm opposed to the removal of Magic Guard and Technician. Levitate has its merits and there was once a day when nobody bar myself used Technician (I've still yet to use Levitate). These abilities can hardly be seen as broken.

I agree here - Krillowatt is the only decent user of Magic Guard in a 4th-gen OU environment (because let's face it, Clefable is UU for pretty good reasons,) and Technician making moves such as Giga Drain and Ancientpower viable options should do wonders to spice up the metagame. (Though the former is about to become redundant, what with Generation 5 bringing Giga Drain's base power up to 75...)

 

[Rising_Dusk]

This isn't about making something viable, it's about managing the CAP metagame. Please, if you are going to post at all as to why something should or should not be changed, do so based on your experiences alone, not what you think every CAP ought to do. For how many times you've all completely swept even well-made teams with Stratagem's coverage, you will know what I am talking about.

Come to think of it, the same set can largely be run with Flamethrower, Paleo Wave, Earth Power, and Energy Ball. It may be worth it to just remove an entire section of his coverage moves along with Technician. Removing Giga Drain/Energy Ball makes the bulky Water-types fair game, or removing Flamethrower/Fire Blast makes Skarmory and Bronzong and Grass-type Pokemon fair game. What do you guys think should be the appropriate move there?

 

[Luigifan]

This isn't about making something viable, it's about managing the CAP metagame. Please, if you are going to post at all as to why something should or should not be changed, do so based on your experiences alone, not what you think every CAP ought to do. For how many times you've all completely swept even well-made teams with Stratagem's coverage, you will know what I am talking about.

Come to think of it, the same set can largely be run with Flamethrower, Paleo Wave, Earth Power, and Energy Ball. It may be worth it to just remove an entire section of his coverage moves along with Technician. Removing Giga Drain/Energy Ball makes the bulky Water-types fair game, or removing Flamethrower/Fire Blast makes Skarmory and Bronzong and Grass-type Pokemon fair game. What do you guys think should be the appropriate move there?

*shrug* Well, come to think of it, if you went to the trouble of coming up with Paleo Wave for Strategem, you might as well encourage people to use it. And as for Giga Drain, like I said, the issue there's about to become moot - once Generation 5 rolls around, Giga Drain won't be eligible for Technician boosts anyways. However, I do have to say that removal of coverage is rarely a good idea. What with the 4-move limit and all, it's not like any Pokemon can run moves to deal with all of its possible counters anyways. Leaving the coverage in would serve to keep those Pokemon on their toes, but there would never be a total guarantee that they'd be around to ruin your day.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

the issue there's about to become moot - once Generation 5 rolls around, Giga Drain won't be eligible for Technician boosts anyways.

The issue there is never going to become moot, because Stratagem is a 4th generation CAP and will be played in a 4th generation metagame. Please, leave 5th generation entirely out of this topic.

What with the 4-move limit and all, it's not like any Pokemon can run moves to deal with all of its possible counters anyways.

Name a single Pokemon that Stratagem cannot hit for neutral damage with Paleo Wave, Earth Power, Energy Ball, and Flamethrower.

 

[ssbbm]

After playing some more battles, it seems that offensive has been hurt the most by the revisions - they lost DDOak, while stall teams can take out their Oak Counter (mostly Cyclohm) for something else. And, pure OU teams function quite well now (although it might be due to the mostly horrible standard of the ladder).

Oh - and about Stratagem - I do not believe it is broken. I believe that it is merely like a faster version of Infernape - sure, it may have immense power at its disposal, but really, it's gonna die to almost any non-resisted move.

 

[tennisace]

I support removing Technician (and associated moves) from Stratagem entirely. I'd also rather remove Energy Ball from Strata than Flamethrower. Earth Power covers all steels except Skarmory, and Strata hits Skarm for neutral anyway with Paleo Wave (which hurts quite a bit). Taking away Energy Ball allows bulky Water-types an easier switch-in, in addition to bulky ground-types. Swampert actually becomes a nice check to Stratagem in this regard, resisting all of its main moves aside from Earth Power/lol HP Grass.

 

[Luigifan]

The issue there is never going to become moot, because Stratagem is a 4th generation CAP and will be played in a 4th generation metagame. Please, leave 5th generation entirely out of this topic.

Name a single Pokemon that Stratagem cannot hit for neutral damage with Paleo Wave, Earth Power, Energy Ball, and Flamethrower.

About the 5th-gen thing - if the 4th-gen CAPs are going to be allowed in 5th-gen battles - even just for fun - they're going to have to play by 5th-gen rules. Including things like power changes for moves. Even if they're never considered for the metagame, changes to the rules of the game would still affect them. Of course, if they never even land on 5th-gen servers, then what I'm saying here is irrelevant.

As for your second point... Let's see, that's Fire, Grass, Rock, and Ground... Rock/Ground is already cited as one of the sterling examples of near-perfect type coverage, with only Grass/Ground, Grass/Fighting, Ground/Dragon with Levitate (or just Ground with Levitate,) Steel with Levitate, and Fighting with Levitate resisting both. And out of those combinations... they're all at least neutral to Fire, and only Grass/Fighting would resist Grass. Yeah, I don't think that there's any Pokemon that can truly resist that entire combination. Theoretically, Ground might be able to be combined with something that would allow it to resist that entire combination when mixed with Levitate. But that something doesn't exist in the 5th generation, and it definitely doesn't exist in the 4th. But sometimes, just not being hit super-effectively can be enough. Especially for Pokemon like Blissey, who can happily soak up hits all day long. But then again, Blissey's already the definitive Special Wall...

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I support removing Technician (and associated moves) from Stratagem entirely. I'd also rather remove Energy Ball from Strata than Flamethrower. Earth Power covers all steels except Skarmory, and Strata hits Skarm for neutral anyway with Paleo Wave (which hurts quite a bit). Taking away Energy Ball allows bulky Water-types an easier switch-in, in addition to bulky ground-types. Swampert actually becomes a nice check to Stratagem in this regard, resisting all of its main moves aside from Earth Power/lol HP Grass.

I absolutely agree with tennisace here. I would much rather, as a player, see the Grass-type moves removed from Stratagem's movepool alongside Technician and Technician-specific moves.

About the 5th-gen thing - if the 4th-gen CAPs are going to be allowed in 5th-gen battles - even just for fun - they're going to have to play by 5th-gen rules. Including things like power changes for moves. Even if they're never considered for the metagame, changes to the rules of the game would still affect them. Of course, if they never even land on 5th-gen servers, then what I'm saying here is irrelevant.

I don't mean to potentially come off rude here, but you are mistaken. We do not have to obey by 5th generation rules anywhere in this topic's discussion, and this is especially relevant because this topic is specifically about managing the fourth generation CAP metagame. May I also remind you that our current stance on the 5th generation is that CAPs like Stratagem will not even be a part of the 5th generation CAP metagame.

Also, theoretically Ground cannot be combined with something to resist that 4 move combination because Ground is weak to Grass-type attacks, thus the resulting combination would necessarily be neutral to Grass-type attacks. Anyway, that was not a serious question anyway, it was rhetorical. There exists nothing that can 'safely' switch into an All-Out Attacker Stratagem except for dedicated special walls that exist only on stall teams or "lol every team must run Revenankh". That is absurd. Offense should not be eradicated from the picture simply because the opponent decides to run one Pokemon. This is something that we can easily fix with what I and subsequently tennisace are proposing.

 

[tennisace]

Also, since I didn't mention it in my previous post, I support removing Magic Guard entirely from Krillowatt. It was a horrible decision but somehow it got bandwagoned. Forcing it to use Trace as the main ability and giving Krill something like Storm Drain is the best course of action, and brings it closer to its original purpose.

 

[ssbbm]

If we are going to nerf Stratagem by taking away one type of coverage move, it is necessary that we take away Technician. This is because Stratagem could just run HP Type 60, and have an effectively base 90 power move.

However, I still feel that Stratagem does not completely ruin offensive teams. Scizor threatens an OHKO with Bullet Punch, Tyranitar can kill it with Pursuit, and Flygon only takes over 40% damage from Giga Drain, and Flygon KOs Gem in return with EQ (assuming Tech).

Furthermore, Krilowatt, if it wishes to be a good "utility counter", should, in my opinion, have an ability that allows it to get no damage from entry hazards. One of the main reasons Krilowatt can consistently counter threats is due to the fact that it can switch in and out with no damage. I agree, lack of LO recoil really does make Krill into more of a sweeper, but Krilowatt really needs immunity o entry hazards.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

i really don't think stratagem is as overpowered as rising_dusk is claiming here. if he needs a tweak, i would much prefer to cut his stats by 5-10 points than to actually remove some of the things that make him stratagem.

on the other hand, magic guard totally blows ass. it's completely anti-concept and was in my opinion the serious mistake made in cap10. i fully support removing it.

 

[HD]

If we are going to nerf Stratagem by taking away one type of coverage move, it is necessary that we take away Technician. This is because Stratagem could just run HP Type 60, and have an effectively base 90 power move.

However, I still feel that Stratagem does not completely ruin offensive teams. Scizor threatens an OHKO with Bullet Punch, Tyranitar can kill it with Pursuit, and Flygon only takes over 40% damage from Giga Drain, and Flygon KOs Gem in return with EQ (assuming Tech).

Furthermore, Krilowatt, if it wishes to be a good "utility counter", should, in my opinion, have an ability that allows it to get no damage from entry hazards. One of the main reasons Krilowatt can consistently counter threats is due to the fact that it can switch in and out with no damage. I agree, lack of LO recoil really does make Krill into more of a sweeper, but Krilowatt really needs immunity o entry hazards.

The thing i dislike most about this is that you're assuming that Scizor and Tyranitar are common. While they are not *extremely* uncommon (Tyranitar has Sand Stream going for him, one of his few advantages over Colossoil; and Arghonaut and Revenankh make Scizor extremely hard to run, even if several users did pull some SD set off well).

And Krilowatt can pull off being a good utility counter perfectly fine without Magic Guard. Trace allows you to get: immunity to Heatran's Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Intimidate Gyarados so you take little damage, etc. Magic Guard was a horrible choice and does nothing than be completely against the concept.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

I'll agree with taking Magic Guard off of Krillowatt; the whole concept behind it was handled with Trace, which just got ignored over this, and it isn't fair.

The changes to Argo & Soil are ok, but I think Ohm should stay where it is.

 

[Darkamber8828]

i really don't think stratagem is as overpowered as rising_dusk is claiming here. if he needs a tweak, i would much prefer to cut his stats by 5-10 points than to actually remove some of the things that make him stratagem.

on the other hand, magic guard totally blows ass. it's completely anti-concept and was in my opinion the serious mistake made in cap10. i fully support removing it.

This.

I'll agree with taking Magic Guard off of Krillowatt; the whole concept behind it was handled with Trace, which just got ignored over this, and it isn't fair.

The changes to Argo & Soil are ok, but I think Ohm should stay where it is.

Yeah.

I disagree with Cyclohm's changes. "Fairly mediocre" isn't how I'd put it. It's a great tank with great typing and great bulk and 50% recovery, while having a great pair of STABs backed by nice spa, making him a nice bulky attacker on offensive teams (as you may know). Also, what ssbbm said about the ability abusing thing.

Also, totally agreeing with the Shadowstrike change. 95 acc is a bitch.

On another note, Trick Room Ohm and SD Pyroak is really, really cool.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I wouldn't be averse to keeping CAP stats mostly the same except to round the numbers off. For instance, Cyclohm is 108 HP / 60 Atk / 118 Def / 112 SpA / 70 SpD / 80 Spe right now, and I think it'd be prettier as 110 HP / 60 Atk / 120 Def / 110 SpA / 70 SpD / 80 Spe. This is more personal aesthetic preference, though, and I can't see us actually justifying it anyway competitively. If push comes to shove, I agree that keeping Cyclohm mostly where he is is what should be done. (He does not need to be faster, Deck)

That said, Colossoil is still a bit intense stat-wise. It's a bit too bulky and a bit fast, but to compensate should hit a bit harder. (Especially now that it lacks Selfdestruct to really go out with a bang) Right now he is 133 HP / 122 Atk / 72 Def / 71 SpA / 72 SpD / 95 Spe, and I think he should instead be around 120 HP / 130 Atk / 70 Def / 70 SpA / 70 SpD / 85 Spe. This does a few things, such as forcing him to run Jolly on most sets to compensate for the lower Speed and higher Attack. He needs to be able to outspeed Heatran and at the worst tie Suicune and Heracross, or he's going down in flames. Of course, this also opens up other niches, such as Choice Band Colossoil with Adamant for wallbreaking power, etc. (Note that Skarmory is not 2HKOed by Adamant Choice Band base 130 Attack Colossoil's Stone Edge) I think this would be a healthy change, and one that would both open up possibilities and tone him down across the board. Shit like Krilowatt really should be able to beat him.

On the flip-side about Stratagem...

if he needs a tweak, i would much prefer to cut his stats by 5-10 points than to actually remove some of the things that make him stratagem.

Honestly, base 130 Speed and base 120 Special Attack are what make Stratagem. That Speed lets him pull off his sweeps, and that Special Attack lets him have the power to do it. No matter what, he's not packing Starmie's powerful STAB, so he needs the Special Attack to hit hard. Simultaneously, "he's fast as lightning" is the first thing that comes to mind when I think Stratagem; I don't want to lose that.

Finally, I'd really like to not cripple all of Stratagem's sets just to balance out the brokenness of one of his sets. All of his other sets that rely on 2 or even 3 move coverage are very manageable. Once it gets to 4 move coverage, though, it's stupid.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I don't support taking out Technician much, but I totally agree with a change in Stratagem. I always find myself (and/or opponents) in a jam when he comes out on someone weak to him. Then you'll find yourself without a decent switch-in who can take a second attack, a big problem for sweeper-based teams. Other than a couple specific Pokemon, he takes out everyone else out with ease. It often comes down to gauging his Life Orb damage to bring him down, usually after losing more than one Pokemon. Stat changes could help a bit, but Stratgem is defined by his stats, especially speed. If it is the only way, than go ahead with removing it.

Shadowstrike's changes are sensible.

As for Magic Guard, I think it also makes Krilowatt much more of a threat than he needs to be. He ignores much of what bothers some other pokemon with (somewhat) similar traits and can use it to his advantage to sweep through teams, which I find unnatural for his style.

 

[Vaz]

On Rising_Dusk's original post I could not agree more on everything you said. Though I only have a disagreement with Giga Drain/Energy Ball on Stratagem, but not so much the former. I love the usutainability it provides Statagem. I mainly find it useful on lead formes, as it can knock heavy chomps of Colosoil, which without cannot do anything to.

 

[ssbbm]

Soil, IMO, should NOT be nerfed. He is not nearly as powerful now without Selfdestruct, and really, he isn't that fast - the only thing notable that he doesn't outspeed with the new spread is Lucario, who isn't really used in CAP at all. His speed is what makes him fit a different niche than Tyranitar - if he loses that 95 Base Speed, he is, IMO, becoming a weaker Tyranitar. Colossoil's bulk isn't that good either - generally, a SE hit will KO or do ~80% damage to it.

Shit like Krilowatt really should be able to beat him

I believe that Colossoil should be able to beat anything that's weak to its STAB move, or it just became really, really weak.

Kitsunoh's ShadowStrike should keep its 50% defense drop - it allows it to shuffle around the opposing team better thus fulfilling "Ultimate Scout".

On Krilowatt, I agree with losing invulnerability to LO recoil - that just makes him a much better sweeper than a utility counter. In my previous posts, I just wanted to say that I think that Krilowatt really likes having that immunity to entry hazards after having to repeatedly switch in on a Gyarados.

On Stratagem, unless you're running a frightfully frail team like HO (which has pretty much died out sadly), you probably won't get swept by Gem, in my experience. Basically, the thing that has helped Gem out a lot is a lack of Fighting types like Machamp, who really own him.

TL;DR - Keep everything the same except Krill

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I believe that Colossoil should be able to beat anything that's weak to its STAB move, or it just became really, really weak.

Imagine if this were true for even a quarter of the things in OU, then tell me if you still agree with it.

Soil, IMO, should NOT be nerfed. He is not nearly as powerful now without Selfdestruct, and really, he isn't that fast - the only thing notable that he doesn't outspeed with the new spread is Lucario, who isn't really used in CAP at all. His speed is what makes him fit a different niche than Tyranitar - if he loses that 95 Base Speed, he is, IMO, becoming a weaker Tyranitar. Colossoil's bulk isn't that good either - generally, a SE hit will KO or do ~80% damage to it.

Perhaps you forgot that right now, Colossoil outclasses Tyranitar. Think about that for a minute. You've got a Pokemon that outclasses a 600 BST pseudo-legendary that's been one of the most consistently amazing Pokemon since it was released and has a movepool that takes a dump on virtually every CAP movepool. Think about the differences:

• Colossoil has STAB Earthquake
• Colossoil has immunity to Electric-type attacks
• Colossoil has Guts
• Colossoil has Sucker Punch
• Colossoil has Rapid Spin
• Colossoil is a whopping 34 base Speed faster than TTar
• Colossoil is not 4x weak to Fighting-type attacks

Do you still think that if Colossoil's Speed gets nerfed, it'll be "an inferior Tyranitar"? If you do, then reread the above list and try again.

Basically, the thing that has helped Gem out a lot is a lack of Fighting types like Machamp, who really own him.

Oh, so suddenly it's OK for an entire team style to be eliminated from the game because of the impact of one Pokemon? And these Fighting-type Pokemon you're talking about, most of them are 2HKOed after some residual damage. Even if they're not, they can't switch in safely twice.

Just because a metagame can handle a Pokemon does not make that Pokemon fair.
​

 

[Vaz]

I also think that Krillowatt should also receive Volt Absorb as well as the removal of Magic Guard to give it something on the side to Trace as a Utility-Counter.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I'm not to sure about Colossoil "outclassing" Tyranitar, but a 10 point base drop on him won't make the two replicas of each other. I find them to play much differently. Colossoil does have great attributes and he shouldn't feel that bad of a burn if his stats are dropped. He's in no danger.