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CaP Prevos - Rebble & Boulderdash - Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Pre-Evolution Workshop' started by DHR-107, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Hi All,

    It's that time again! Let's get going with Rebble and Boulderdash! As we voted for in these two threads: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-gen-4-prevo-voting-thread.3601220/page-2 & http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/boulderdash-existence-poll.3601665/page-2 , We decided to keep Rebble's Design and name, but change something about Boulderdash.

    [​IMG]

    The above image is all the "official" artwork we have of these guys, as well as the sprites below:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    These guys evolve into Stratagem, our super speedy, special attacking, "Break the Mold" Rock type. The original Final Product thread can be found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-5-final-product.47933/#post-1594710. Stratagem got a bunch of new moves in the Updates we hosted a few months ago and also gained the ability Sniper.

    In this thread (which won't be up for a huge amount of time), I'd like us to discuss anything we would like changed or not from Stratagem going backwards. I have a feeling most people will want to agree to remain being solely Rock typed. If we can come to agreements about what stuff shouldn't be changed, then we can speed the whole process up a bunch! This also extends to their abilities as well! Would you guys want to keep Levitate/Technician/Sniper as a set or would you like one of these changed?

    I'd also like some discussion on what people didn't like about Boulderdash specifically. I know there was some dislike to its design (and its name) previously, and I would like to know what was so egregious about it. This is our opportunity to "fix" the problems!

    I am also throwing this out there that we really need some new artwork! There might not be a thread up just yet, but if you want to start on new artwork go for it!
  2. Drew

    Drew formerly LitsYaBoi1337
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    YISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

    Ok so lemme get into my ideas. First of all, I'd like to go into the concept. Stratagem's concept was breaks the mold, and since I like for CAP Prevos to mostly follow their evo's concept, let me just list off a few things the average LC Rock-type does:
    • Sets Rocks
    • Checks Flying-types
    • Physical
    • Has Weak Armor
    • Loses to Fighting-types
    Things Rock-types usually don't do
    • Not naturally fast
    • can't break Fighting-types, Grass-type, and especially Water-types
    • Sweep
    So I have a few ideas to make use of this based off of Stratagem's movepool, and since I can only use bullet points apparently here u go:
    • Calm Mind sweeper: fast speed, probably high defense OR special defense, keeps most coverage
    • Fast Wallbreaker: In the style of Abra and Gastly, this would be probably easiest to do, just let it keep coverage and high Speed/Special Attack
    • Rock Polish: This is probably the worst of my ideas, as I'd personally like Rebble to be speedy naturally, but basically I'd give it generic LC sweep bulk strong SpA and probably 14 Speed tier. P generaric all in all.
    I personally like the former, just cause LC has a lack of this kind of sweeper, and we seem to keep making substitutes for Abra and Gastly which no one really wants >_>

    Now to flavor. I personally like Solid Rock as a Hidden Ability for Rebble as it seems to be all together (and even know I said this was flavor it pairs perfectly with a Calm Mind sweeper) while I'd keep Sniper with Boulderdash. Also the reason at least I personally didn't like Boulderdash because it looked like the head and arms of Stratagem just got taken off, which would be fine if it were like Hydreigon or Magnezone, where the full evolution line participates, but with Rebble being so cute, and also having little oppurtunity to be smaller than just the head and arms, I don't think Boulderdash's design fits. Its name is great though. Also ya anything but not solely Rock-type would be absurd.
  3. Reviloja753

    Reviloja753

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    Making Rebble a Calm Mind sweeper sounds great. I do think Rebble should keep Technician, but I have a new proposal for a HA: Defiant. The logic behind it is very simple- Rebble is a play of rebel, which are very defiant to someone or something. I also don't think anyone worth their salt would run a physical anyway, so there's that. Heck, we could even just have the set be Levitate/Defiant/HA if we were worried that Defiant would be too good as a flavor ability (I don't see Technician being all that useful but correct me if I'm wrong).
  4. Drew

    Drew formerly LitsYaBoi1337
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    I'd be fine with removing Technician. It doesn't suit Rebble's design too well, and a Calm Mind sweeper would prefer Paleo Wave to Technician Ancient Power due to the chance to drop Attack. Also Defiant would be pretty weird, although a Defog deterring Rock-type could be cool to better beat certain Vullaby sets (DHR I'm looking at you). I'm kind of impartial to giving it Defiant so I won't go on.
  5. Quanyails

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    Bolderdash is in a weird position due to the polls that determined its fate. People could elect to remove, modify, or keep pre-evos, and a lot of people wanted to remove it so Stratagem is a one- or two-stager. But the weird part is that Rebble was kept in its entirety, so you end up trying to change a middle-stage 'mon when you're keeping its pre-evo and evo. There's not much flexibility there when both ends are closed. If Rebble were voted to be changed or removed, it'd be a different story, but under these circumstances, I'd have to keep Bolderdash in its entirety. :T
  6. LucarioOfLegends

    LucarioOfLegends
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    Posting this before I die for three days.

    If I remember correctly from the original poll, a common problem that people thought that Boulderdash didn't do enough to differentiate itself from its older brother. Rebble, for example, has a much closer knit body and one eye jewel is very different from Strata's 6. Boulderdash, on the other hand, has a lot of notable similarities to stratagem in head shape, appendage design, and sorta the general feel IMO. I think personally that the design needs to change in a certain way so that it can further distance itself from Strata.

    For Rebble, I still think that an ability change should be a bit more leaning on flavor implications. This is a flavor thing after all. Hence, if we were to change Tech out for something, I'd like to suggest Keen Eye. I think it works well enough for Rebble because of the one eye jewel, which kinda implies a strong idea of keen observation. This also fits with the theme of the Strata line's more tactical focus. It doesn't have real competitive implications like Defiant, but I think it fits much better for flavor.
  7. G-Luke

    G-Luke We Eat Losers
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    I think the main issue on Bolderdash was its similarity to Strategem design wise, and I feel it should get a design revamp.

    I also agree with Keen Eye, but as a hidden ability instead of one replacing Technician.
  8. Drew

    Drew formerly LitsYaBoi1337
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    I'd like to propose Levitate/Solid Rock/Keen Eye for Rebble. Technician isn't necessary and doesn't fit its design imo, while Solid Rock helps it as a Calm Mind sweeper (that's the general concept I'm applying to it for now) and just in general. Also both make sense design wise, as it has one singular crystal eye, and I really like the concept of having it start out as a Solid Rock and then breaking into its evolutions. Boulderdash would have Technician over Solid Rock after it evolves btw.

    E: Also open to snake's suggestion of Levitate / Solid Rock / Sniper
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  9. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
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    I prefer Levitate / Solid Rock / Keen Eye or Levitate / Solid Rock / Sniper. From a competitive standpoint at least, Rebble won't really need Technician Hidden Power as much, and Solid Rock looks very plausible with Rebble's sturdier (but still fragile) design. Hidden Abilities generally do not change, so I prefer Sniper just a little more than Keen Eye, but Keen Eye is a really neat option. Generally do not like Defiant though. I also think making Calm Mind a viable option on Rebble would be very interesting, as it'd "break the mold" for most LC Rock-types, who generally do not sweep.

    As for Boulderdash, I think getting some artwork on it would be nice before I give an opinion on abilities, but one of the two I've already stated, or giving it Technician, would be best. No matter what though, Levitate should definitely stay!

    Boulderdash just looks too much like Stratagem. I really just wanted it removed in the poll :/ I'm no artist so I'm not sure what we could do with the transition stage from Rebble to Stratagem though.
  10. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Okay so it looks like we have decided on pure Rock typing for these two guys, but there is a lot of discussion on abilities.

    Solid Rock/Sniper/Defiant/Keen Eye have all been mentioned, but what order would you like these to be seen in? Almost everyone has unanimously stated to keep Levitate in slot 1, so it's just deciding which of the secondary abilities need to go where.

    With Stratagem having access to the below, I'd like to keep them matched up as best we can.
    Levitate / Technician / Sniper could turn into
    Levitate / [Solid Rock][Keen Eye] / Sniper

    I'm not a fan of mixing abilities throughout so one turns into another. I can't think of a mon off the top of my head that does this (apart from maybe Ferroseed?), so I would definitely appreciate if Sniper is popular that it remains in the HA/3rd slot. I could get behind Snakes suggestion above of Levitate / Solid Rock / Keen Eye TO Levitate / Solid Rock / Sniper as you evolve from Rebble -> Boulderdash and gaining Technician on evolving once more. Again, not many Pokemon do this, but keeping at least one ability matching makes it work for me.

    What order specifically would you guys like to see the Abilities take?

  11. Drew

    Drew formerly LitsYaBoi1337
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    Levitate / Solid Rock / Keen Eye or Sniper for Rebble
    Levitate / Technician / Sniper for Boulderdash
    Levitate / Technician / Sniper obviously for Stratagem

    I don't think we really need to give Rebble Keen Eye. Like ya it fits better design wise but I feel keeping constancy is more important in this case.
  12. LucarioOfLegends

    LucarioOfLegends
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    For Rebble, I can probably get behind Levitate/Solid Rock/Sniper if it is the majority, but I still very much prefer Levitate/Keen Eye/Sniper cause its great consistency stuff, and stats could dictate the addition of Solid Rock, which is on a bunch of very slow Pokemon commonly with good physical defense. Drew's suggests for Boulderdash are fine.
  13. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
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    I'm behind Levitate / Solid Rock / Sniper for Rebble and Levitate / Technician / Sniper for the middle evo. Makes the most sense for consistency for HA and Solid Rock is, well, a solid choice.
  14. Menshay

    Menshay
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    There's Tyrogue (Guts / Steadfast / Vital Spirit) -> Hitmontop (Intimidate / Technician / Steadfast), but it still does not look good.

    Regarding reasons for changing abilities, the line's current names suggest Stratagem as the clever final form compared with its haphazard pre-evolutions (strategist vs rebel / dash) and I feel Hustle over Technician for both represents this flavour the best, though it would definitely influence the way Rebble and Boulderdash (Bouldash?) are played. So far Sniper never changes along an evolution like, and I think its high-damage properties can fit both personalities equally well.

    Then again Rebble and Boulderdash do not yet have a defined personality, so everything could change.
  15. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
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    I'd like to think that Rebble will be a sort of minion, the middle evo will be a sort of pontoon leader, and Stratagem is the commander in an army of these Rock-types. Something like 8 Rebble to one middle evo and 5 middle evos leD by one Stratagem, all firing Paleo Wave, Earth Power, Energy Ball, Fire Blast, and Dazzling Gleam. Therefore, I'd prefer Solid Rock over Hustle for Rebble simply because it sounds like it'd obey orders rather than Hustle around. For the middle evo, I'd prefer to see Technician as the secondary ability just to show the transition between Rebble to Stratagem.

    If I may dabble into some competitive reasoning, Levitate and Solid Rock would complement each other well for a Calm Mind set, and that sounds really interesting. While I still stand firmly by my flavor reasoning, I do like Stratagem's choice in abilities, and because Rebble won't exactly need Technician, it'd be really interesting to see the ability-choice dynamic work in LC in its own way.
  16. Drew

    Drew formerly LitsYaBoi1337
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    So me and snake just realized that Paleo Wave is locked out of these babies' movepool cause it was an evolution move. This does ruin a lot of the uniqueness and creativity I wanted to apply to Rebble, but whatever. C'est la vie. We can still worth with Power Gem (I'm still against Technician Ancient Power although now I'm slightly more open to it) and all the cool coverage Stratagem gets to make a still great Calm Mind sweeper. I also don't like the idea of Hustle, as it doesn't really fit design wise or competitively, and just doesn't fit with the kind of general idea behind Rebble/Boulderdash imo
  17. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Okay so:

    Are you guys happy with the following:

    Rebble: Levitate / Solid Rock / Sniper
    Boulderdash: Levitate / Technician / Sniper

    Are we dropping support for Keen Eye entirely? It certainly seems that way from the posts above. Hustle is something that should be avoided due to our likely Special orientated stats, I don't want to see this thing become accidentally mixed and I don't think Hustle really works with the design.

    I am happy with the above abilities and will move onto Stats if others are also happy with the above?
  18. Drew

    Drew formerly LitsYaBoi1337
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    I agree with completely. Also I think we dropped support for Keen Eye just to keep consistency with Hidden Abilities. What's an Embirch?
  19. LucarioOfLegends

    LucarioOfLegends
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    Seems like I'm the only one still supporting Keen Eye, but I also really agree with the above, so I'm fine with dropping it.
  20. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
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    Looks excellent.
  21. G-Luke

    G-Luke We Eat Losers
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    I agree with everything here. It's lit!
  22. Quanyails

    Quanyails
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    The name is originally Bolderdash, given that Gen. IV names are 10 letters long, and no Pokemon name has been "properly" expanded even when the length limit has been extended (Feraligatr, Victreebel). I personally don't think the name requires changing, but if someone offers a more clever pun, I'd be up for polling it.

    I think there's no reason to give Rebble Solid Rock when Technician is fine on it. Stratagem's pre-evos don't suggest a drastic divergence from Stratagem itself, so I don't see the flavor reasoning behind a sudden change in ability.
  23. Reviloja753

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    My question is what would be a good middle ground between a rebel and a strategist.
  24. LucarioOfLegends

    LucarioOfLegends
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    I used the name Tactite (or more specifically Tacttite but that's way too many ts) on Discord once, and I kinda think its growing on me. Its a mix of tactic (cause of the whole strategy motif that the line has) and stalactite (a rock formation that commonly occurs on the ceiling of caves). Otherwise, Bolderdash is cool.
  25. mxmts

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    I think we should wait until a final artwork is chosen to discuss Bolderdash new name. For example the cocoon from ShunosaurusLii has very different flavor connotations than Darquezze design, we don't know if a name will be appropriate for the winning version.

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