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CAP Revisions Playtesting

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by tennisace, Jan 14, 2010.

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  1. tennisace

    tennisace Tastes like farm league drama
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    Social Media Chief

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    After nearly a month and a half of discussion, we're done. The original three Create-A-Pokemon have been revised to be more in-tune with the current metagame. In addition, all the Pokemon up to CAP 8 (Cyclohm) gained new tutor moves (in accordance with this thread). This thread will serve the purpose of the general "playtesting thread". In here, discuss the changes to the Pokemon, their effects on the metagame, and of course, what sets do and/or don't work.

    So, lets introduce the changes, in order of creation.

    Syclant

    [​IMG]

    70 HP / 115 Atk / 70 Def / 115 SpA / 65 SpD / 120 Spe

    Moves Added (open)

    Earthquake
    Focus Blast
    Focus Punch
    Grass Knot
    Leaf Blade
    Megahorn
    Psychic
    Spikes
    Stone Edge
    Vacuum Wave
    Aqua Tail
    Superpower
    Magic Coat
    Tailwind
    Super Fang
    Headbutt
    Gastro Acid
    Gunk Shot
    Mud-slap
    Ancientpower
    Bug Bite
    Fury Cutter
    Snore
    String Shot
    Helping Hand
    Uproar


    Revenankh

    [​IMG]

    94 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 50 SpA / 120 SpD / 71 Spe

    Abilities Removed: Air Lock
    Abilities Added: Mold Breaker

    Moves Added (open)

    Cross Chop
    Fire Punch
    Shadow Claw
    Stone Edge
    Sucker Punch
    Thunderpunch
    Will-o-Wisp
    Earth Power
    Superpower
    Vacuum Wave
    Zen Headbutt
    Headbutt
    String Shot
    Helping Hand
    Last Resort
    Uproar


    Pyroak

    [​IMG]

    117 HP / 105 Atk / 102 Def / 80 SpA / 96 SDef / 70 Spe

    Abilities Removed: Battle Armour
    Abilities Added: Flash Fire

    Moves Added (open)

    Double-Edge
    Dragon Claw
    Dragon Dance
    Dragon Pulse
    Earthquake
    Leaf Blade
    Rock Slide
    Sleep Powder
    Stone Edge
    Stun Spore
    Earth Power
    Outrage
    Knock Off
    Block
    Headbutt
    Gastro Acid
    Gunk Shot
    Mud-slap
    Snore
    String Shot
    Worry Seed
    Helping Hand
    Last Resort
    Uproar
    Heat Wave
    Low Kick
    Fire Punch
    Iron Head
    Endeavor
    Iron Defense
    Thunderpunch
    Zen Headbutt


    Fidgit

    [​IMG]

    Moves Added (open)

    Seed Bomb
    Icy Wind
    Ice Punch
    Thunderpunch
    Headbutt
    Gastro Acid
    Rollout
    Swift
    Last Resort
    Role Play
    Uproar


    Stratagem

    [​IMG]

    Moves Added (open)

    Signal Beam
    Heat Wave
    Icy Wind
    Trick
    Gravity
    Bounce
    Iron Head
    Zen Headbutt
    Headbutt
    Knock Off
    Mud-slap
    Rollout
    Ominous Wind
    Fury Cutter
    Air Cutter
    Snore
    Swift
    Uproar
    Magnet Rise


    Arghonaut

    [​IMG]

    Moves Added (open)

    Low Kick
    Aqua Tail
    Iron Head
    Superpower
    Knock Off
    Sucker Punch
    Magic Coat
    Block
    Headbutt
    Gunk Shot
    Twister
    Whirlpool
    Dive
    Snore
    Uproar


    Kitsunoh

    [​IMG]

    Moves Added (open)

    Endeavor
    Magic Coat
    Low Kick
    Super Fang
    Pain Split
    Headbutt
    Mud-slap
    Ominous Wind
    Snore
    Spite
    Last Resort
    Role Play


    Cyclohm

    [​IMG]

    Moves Added (open)
    Headbutt
    Zen Headbutt
    Rollout
    Whirlpool
    Sky Attack
    Snore
    Uproar


    For reference, Colossoil now has Fire Blast, which was erroneously left out of the original movepool. The playtesting period will last two weeks after the programming changes are made.

    Remember: Don't post based on theorymon. Post based on your experiences with the changes.
  2. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    Pyroak is definitely tearing shit up. Grass/Fire STAB means it hits water, steel, ground, and grass for super effective damage, including virtually every physical wall in the metagame.

    the common set is:

    [​IMG]
    Adamant@life orb
    Rock Head
    ~Dragon Dance
    ~Flare Blitz
    ~Wood Hammer
    ~Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Stone Edge

    Fire/grass isn't amazing type coverage, but it's perfectly acceptable given that it hits almost every physically bulky pokemon for super effective damage, including hippowdon, skarmory, forretress, metagross, celebi, vaporeon, suicune, swampert, arghonaut, and shaymin.

    Earthquake covers heatran, one of the few pokemon that can stop this rampage, leaves it vulnerable to salamence (though salamence takes takes around 41 % from an unboosted flare blitz anyway). Dragon Claw OHKOes salamence at the expense of losing to Heatran. Stone edge is the compromise, hitting heatran neutral and OHKOing salamence, but then cyclohm becomes an issue. Stone edge does nail other Pyroak though (Pyroak with Flash Fire is one of DDOak's best counters). cresselia is the only wall that i can think of that pyroak can't hit super effectively.

    In all the excitement about Pyroak, Revenankh's new possibilities haven't really been explored, but revenankh is unbelievably bulky now. The spread using 216 sdef EVs before is equivalent to only 56 EVs now, leaving 160 available for defense, attack, or more even sdef.

    compared to some other walls:

    Code:
    252 Naive Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast  
      
      vs. 252/252 Careful Revenankh : 35.5% - 42.1%
      vs. 252/4 Impish Hippowdon : 67.4% - 79.5%
      vs. 252/252 Impish Occa Berry Skarmory : 64.7% - 76.3%
      vs. 252/0 Bold Suicune : 24% - 28.2%
      vs. 252/4 Impish Arghonaut : 26.1% - 30.9%
    
    252 Naive Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz  
      
      vs. 252/4 Careful Revenankh : 60.5% - 71.4%
      vs. 252/252 Impish Hippowdon : 33.6% - 39.5%
      vs. 252/4 Impish Occa Berry Skarmory : 44.3% - 52.4%
      vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune : 17.8% - 20.8%
      vs. 252/252 Impish Arghonaut : 19.6% - 23.2%
    
    Overall
    
    252/4/252 Careful Revenankh : [B]96% - 113.5%[/B]
    252/252/4 Impish Hippowdon : [B]101% - 119%[/B]
    252/4/252 Impish Occa Skarmory : [B]109% - 128.7%[/B]
    252/252/4 Bold Suicune :[B] 83.6% - 98% [/B]
    252/252/4 Impish Arghonaut : [B]91.4% - 108.2%[/B]
    
    suicune and arghonaut numbers doubled for comparison
    
    Revenankh ranks among the best mixed walls in the metagame...
  3. Numerator

    Numerator

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    The Pyroak set Umbreon Dan posted is truly monstrous. I almost always have to sacrifice something to stop it. However, I noticed that Stratagem can check it well.

    Timid Stratagem w/ 176 speed EVs will outrun Jolly max speed Pyroak, and it's Paleo Wave (assuming 252 special attack EVs, but no Life Orb) will deal ~72%-84% to min/min Pyroak. Furthermore, Pyroak's +1 Adamant max attack Life Orb Flare Blitz will deal ~89%-94% to min/min Stratagem, so Strata has a chance to switch in if there are no rocks out.

    (I lost all my actual calcs, but I know what they were.)

    Stratagem, however, is mostly walled by Revenankh. Stratagem's Timid Life Orb Shadow Ball does 40.3%-48% to 252 HP/56 SpD Careful Revenankh. All its other attacks will do little over half as much. Revenankh can then OHKO with Hammer Arm, or finish off a severely weakened Strata with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch.


    I also tried this lead Syclant:

    Jolly@Focus Sash
    4 HP/252 Att/252 Spe
    Taunt
    Spikes
    X-Scissor
    Ice Shard

    It taunts, then sets up one or two layers of Spikes. It doesn't do much else. You can give it special attacks, but...it will still do the exact same things while it's out. HP Grass will kill Swampert, HP Electric kills Gyarados and Ice beam might hurt the rare lead Stratagem enough that Revenankh's Shadow Sneak will kill it. However, in most cases, you should just focus on getting spikes up.

    The only leads I've actually faced with this guy are Swampert and Stratagem. Against Swampert, I can generally stop its rocks and then Spike twice. If Hydro Pump misses (or if Swampy doesn't carry a strong neutral move) then I get three layers up and laugh. If I see Strata, my first instinct is to bring in Revenankh.

    I don't know how it fares against most leads, since few people actually go on the CAP ladder.

    Needless to say, this set completely shuts down most Fidgit. And, needless to say, Your ability should be mountaineer.
  4. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    Been playing with DDOak and it is as insane as Dan says it is. Very fun.

    TrickSpecs Stratagem isn't as coolio as I'd hoped, but nevertheless still really fun to mess people up.
    Timid @ Choice Specs
    [Technician]
    252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    - Trick
    - Ancientpower
    - Earth Power
    - Giga Drain

    that's what I've been playing with, and while it lacks the long-end power of the Calm Minder, it's a lot more useful early game, especially being able to stop Blissey letting DDOak come in and set up.
    Magnet Rise + Technician seems fun, but it's hard to find space for it.
  5. Infiltrator

    Infiltrator

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    I've been using a set similar to Dan's nad I've got to say, with Dragon Dance at Pyroak's disposal, can be a serious threat to any unprepared team. Here's the set I've been using:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Pyroak (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 5 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Flare Blitz
    - Wood Hammer
    - Earthquake
    ---

    With the EVs invested Pyroak is able to out speed the likes of Fidgit, Infernape, Starmie, Latias, and Gengar. It also seems that Pyroak has the potential to break walls better than Colosoil, being able to OHKO Skarm after a DD while 2HKOing it with without the attack boost. I've compiled a list of the damage Pyroak can cause to the top Stallmons in the current metagame:

    I'll add in more calcs later...

    EDIT: gonna also playtest some other of the CAPs when I'm done with Pyroak.
  6. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    For the DDOak using Wood Hammer on BulkyGyara, did you factor in Intimidate?
  7. Infiltrator

    Infiltrator

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    There was really no need because if Oak would have set up an DD before Gyarados came in it would result in the same damage calcs without the DD boost. But if he didn't set up and got intimidate, here is the outcome:

  8. tennisace

    tennisace Tastes like farm league drama
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    Social Media Chief

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    If you're running a lead, why bother with Mountaineer? I use Compoundeyes and Megahorn, for the extra power. I also run Super Fang over Ice Shard so that I can completely mess up things like Blissey later.
  9. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    DD Pyroak is absolutely monstrous. However, I use a slightly different set from what's been posted:

    Pyroak @ Leftovers
    Adamant 24 HP 252 ATK 232 SPE
    -Dragon Dance
    -Flare Blitz
    -Wood Hammer
    -Sleep Powder

    The EVs let it outrun up to base 110+ SPE Pokemon. Dragon Dance and the two STABs are obvious, but I quickly found that I couldn't cover everything I wanted to cover with the last move. Therefore, I decided to use Sleep Powder over a coverage move. This allows Pyroak to cripple one of its counters and either set up more Dragon Dances or attack a few mores times, thus hopefully beating it. This set has massive heatran problems though, as even if Heatran is asleep, Pyroak can't do a lot to it. But then, using Dragon Claw would get you walled by it too, and at least this way, you can at least cripple Heatran.
  10. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I've been ravaged something serious by a DDOak. With Sleep Powder, it reliably gets free turns to DD, and if it gets two (which with its bulk isn't terribly difficult), it completely smashes teams not carrying Heatran. I really don't want to have to bring a Heatran on every team just to deal with it. Also, the potential for it to run EQ to handle the likes of Heatran and Cyclohm is terrifying.

    The only things that can really break it offensively after a single DD are Strategem who hits for ~70% with Paleo Wave. Cyclohm can smash it if it can get in before the DD to Draco Meteor, but EQ simply demolishes Cyclohm, so..
  11. HD

    HD

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    The thing about Oak is that you will always be able to beat it with at least one poke: if you run DClaw, you get fucked by Heatran. If you run EQ, you get fucked by Dragons. And hell, those two have high usages, so it generally isn't a problem. But people keep forgetting about Stone Edge, the happy medium. You take out weakened Heatran and also hit the Dragons.
  12. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    Just an fyi to all of you using 252 / 252 Pyroak: putting the last four EVs into HP gives Pyroak 376 HP, which rounds up Stealth Rock damage. Unless you plan to make sure that Pyroak is never switching in to Stealth Rock, stick the last four into Defense instead.
  13. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    But then you get fucked by Thunderdi- er, Cycolhm. Also, Flygon likes that move (not as much as EQ, but still...) a lot.

    The problem is more like Salamances with handling it: if you have to run pokemon to counter SPECIFIC moves/movesets, then it's broken. I personnaly don't want to have to see if it has EQ or not before figuring out the counter, expecially since Flare Blitz might burn my now useless counter in the meanwhile. (Course, my sandstorm team is royally screwed if Stratagem is dead, and I have to revenge kill, but meh. That's beside the point)
  14. tennisace

    tennisace Tastes like farm league drama
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    Yeah except that counters don't really exist in DP. If there are no checks, then you start having a problem. Stratagem can check any Pyroak with 1 DD or less. Revenankh can check Pyroak by just using Bulk Up along-side. Salamence can check Pyroak by surviving anything save Stone Edge and severely hurting it with either Outrage or Stone Edge of its own. Do you see what I'm getting at? I agree that it's very powerful, but it's like Gyarados in my eyes (another semi-decent check). Its Stealth Rock weakness limits it, and it's really slow without a DD.
  15. Plus

    Plus been cookin with the sauce
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    Professor of B101

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    Damn, Revenankh is really fucking bulky. I hope we didn't make Rev too strong. Needless to say there are still ways to deal with it such as Argho and Skarm, but offensively it's a bit harder to keep up with the dude once he has a Bulk Up up his sleeve. It shrugs off Draco Meteors coming from Latias Mence and Cyclohm with a mere Rest and can do whatever it wants afterwards. As a result, I've been running stall again, and Revenankh really did get that much better with the revisions. But as always, time will tell if Revenankh really is *too good*.
  16. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    This is pretty irrelevant considering that all of these Pyroak have either Leftovers or Life Orb (usually LO). The chances that they won't attack once out of the 4 times they come in is... pretty bad.


    EDIT- Also I'm agreeing with Plus about Revenankh ahaha... "time will tell"
  17. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    It's really dangerous switching in if he knows it's there, since Wood Hammer instead of DD will easily OHKO Levitate Stratagem. Usually, though, people are greedy and will go for the DD. In those cases, Strata really does check it well. He's usually my response.
    Yeah, definitely. Most players will switch out their Pyroak on that match up, though, since Rev will win unless Pyroak gets a crit. This is especially handy since Pyroak sucks up another 25% SR damage when it comes back in later.
    Togekiss perfectly counters the Bulk Up Revenankh without question. It can switch into any of its moves the first turn its out, being immune to Shadow Sneak and resisting Hammer Arm, and is faster and immediately threatens 40-50% Air Slashes with 60% chance to flinch. That isn't even considering the possibility that Togekiss encores Bulk Up and turns Rev into setup fodder.

    Staraptor also works similarly, threatening a OHKO with Brave Bird if the thing hasn't gotten any Bulk Ups, but Togekiss is more widely useful to a team in CAP with its bulk and so on.
  18. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    Again, just posting to point some stuff out. Plus's point was that Revenankh is a lot harder to check on most "offensive" teams. Yes, Togekiss and Staraptor are undoubtedly offensive (unless you're running a defensive Kiss set but w/e), but they both already have huge problems in the CAP metagame (cue Cyclohm/Blissey/yadayada for Togekiss and... every OU threat that counters/checks Staraptor).

    In the current metagame, it looks like (Yes, this is theorymon and we're not really supposed to do that, but it's an observation nonetheless) a lot of Revenankhs better offensive checks don't do so hot. Pokemon that really would work well enough against it (most "semibulky flying-types") are solidly checked by many other CAPs, and Collosoil makes most of the Psychic-types that can do stuff to Rev pretty nonexistant.
  19. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Everything that you use to counter one Pokemon will have its own counters that your team must be capable of dealing with. That's one of the most important parts of team-building. Togekiss isn't quintessentially amazing at beating everything, but between countering Arghonaut and Revenankh, it finds a great home in many CAP teams of many types. (Not as if you didn't already know that, though)
    Speaking from experience in playing these past few days with the new revisions, most don't. Arghonaut still beats it, and Pyroak wins if it can get +1 attack over Rev's defense boosts. (Before Rev gets enough attack to beat it with Hammer Arm) Rev outclasses all Draco Meteor users, but if it uses Rest in anticipation of a Draco Meteor, sometimes you can set up on that turn. That's about the best that can be done, though.

    Kitsu beats it if it can trick it a scarf. Furthermore, between Kitsu and some normal Pokemon, you carry immunities to anything Rev might get choiced into using. (And its useless after that when you force it out) Anything else with Trick completely beats it. (Since it doesn't use Substitute)

    Trying to think what else I've run into trying to beat it.. Nothing else really comes to mind offhand.
  20. TekkenStorm

    TekkenStorm

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    Feels good seeing Pyroak as a menace for the first time. He was always my favourite CAP, being also the time I joined in and I must say I waited for this moment a long time ago. I still remember when I spammed the server demanding a Pyroak revision and how he sucks while the mods telling me to shut up and that it will never going to happen, that he's fine the way he is. Hehe.

    Anyway, Pyroak is certainly powerful. I run the standard DD set with Sleep Powder as fourth move but I recently starting to notice this was not doing so well, there was a rise in stall teams. Spikes and SR were hurting badly Pyroak plus with Life Orb his stay on the field was pretty short lived.

    I will consider running a rapid spinner to counter this and use a more bulky Pyroak, similair to Bulky DD Gyarados which always did wonders for me.
  21. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    That argument turns in on itself when you realize the Rev user isn't just using Rev+5 random mons. The Rev team could be prepared for potential answers to pokemon like Togekiss/insert other Rev checks and counters.

    Arghonaut isn't really an offensive threat. Pyroak won't ever be 1 boost above Rev unless it comes in first (which really isnt the point). You're kinda proving the point in saying Rev can just rest off DM damage like nothing -.-

    Trick is a method of dealing with it, but your argument that ghost pokemon+normal pokemon helps with Rev isn't necessarily true. Just because Revenankh can't touch you doesn't mean you CAN touch it... and if you can't touch it, you can't beat it, and since it's the stat upper it'll win (not to mention you'd have to PP stall it out of Hammer Arm or whatever which is somewhat silly).

    I'm not doing any more back-and-forth though.

    I've been testing an offensive team I made with Plus, and it's doing pretty good. I'm running Taunt on like everything that has trouble with defensive pokemon, or giving it Trick, etc, so I haven't had much trouble with more defensive teams. Or Rev really, though I surprisingly haven't battled it much.

    EDIT- why did we make stratagem's movepool even bigger?
  22. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    So does yours, since if they pack counters to Togekiss, you probably pack counters to those counters. This cyclic argument just repeats itself until someone gets tired of arguing it. Really, the fact that Togekiss counters Rev is enough.
    Err, I never argued against the point. All I said was that Togekiss is a perfect counter and then I agreed that most offensive threats can't beat him. You seem to be a bit confused here.
    Trick defeats it soundly, though. Also, once its been tricked into something, you can whittle it down with whatever you need to. I'm not even theorymonning here, it actually works really well. It's also not as if you let him get 6 Bulk Ups before attempting the Trick. With only one or two defense boosts, he's still pretty soundly smashed by physical moves to be 3 or 4HKO'd. For instance, if locked into Shadow Sneak with a +2, Collossoil only takes 15-17.7% damage and Crunches/Sucker Punches for 21.4-25.5%. If he gets locked into Rest or Bulk Up, you get free turns to set up as long as he stays in.
    Suit yourself, although it's healthy to discuss it as we are.
  23. HR.

    HR.

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    I'd just like to point out that Togekiss does not resist Hammer Arm, making it more of a check than a counter.
  24. Rising_Dusk

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    Yeah, it's neutral, but Togekiss' bulk lets it take an unboosted Hammer Arm at only 33.0-38.9% (That's with 248 HP EVs, no Def EVs, and no nature boost). Even with SR, that fails to 2HKO a huge portion of the time. 32 Def EVs guarantee it can't 2HKO after SR. That's a great counter, if you ask me. (Especially with Roost in your arsenal)
  25. Zach

    Zach

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    stall is extremely hard to pull off with the new cap revisions. First off, DDOak positively rapes CAP stall teams that look like: Lead Hippo/Pert, Blissey, Arghonaut, Reveankh, Fidgit, Skarmory. Everything bar Reveankh is hit for super effective damage, who is OHKOed by +1 LO Flare Blitz iirc.

    by the way;

    sleep powder + dragon dance is illegal!!!

    or at least it should be due to egg groups, but I've faced it on the ladder :(.

    Anyway, stall needs to run several checks to Pyroak to win. One option is Latias, although she must watch for Dragon Claw, and the omnipresent Colossoil. There's Cyclohm, who KOes with an LO Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock, but it must watch for Earthquake / Dragon Claw. There's Heatran, who can Fire Blast, but Heatran must watch for Flash Fire and Earthquake. Etc, etc.; there is no one check to Pyroak, because almost everything with a Choice Scarf is unable to OHKO it, and everything else is hit by one of its auxiliary moves. The best check afaik is Choice Scarf Togekiss. Togekiss outruns at +1, hits with STAB super effective Air Slash, hopefully for a flinch, and then again for the KO. Togekiss also takes on Reveankh, as talked about above, making it a very anti-metagame pokemon atm. It can also have some fun against stall by tricking its Scarf away.

    Earlier in the playtest when I was running stall I relied on a Scarf Kitsunoh + Scarf Cyclohm to take out Pyroak. With Stealth Rock and a little extra damage, possibly from Kitsunoh's ShadowStrike, Cyclohm's Draco Meteor was a KO. However, this was obviously a very poor way of dealing with the issue, and I eventually scrapped the team because I couldn't pass a ~1490ish cre. As far as other stall teams are concerned, I know Plus uses Toxic Spikes mainly for Pyroak, but otherwise I'm not sure how they are dealing with it. I think Pyroak is probably the most broken CAP as a result of revisions.

    Moving on to Colossoil: it has Fire Blast, Skarmory beware. Yeah, now that Colossoil has Fire Blast stall lost its 100% counter in Skarmory. This makes me think that it would be wise for Skarmory to run Brave Bird rather than Taunt (though most probably run the former anyway) so that it is easier to weaken Colossoil without resorting purely to entry hazard damage. When I ran stall, I used 202 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey, which took about ~60% from Adamant Life Orb Earthquake, so that I could stall Colossoil out with Life Orb damage, if need be. However, I believe Colossoil is not broken, it is just a top tier OU pokemon.

    *note: i do realize, for the record, that colossoil did not receive fire blast as a result of cap revisions.

    one last thing:

    I just want to be clear that I think stall is very possible and viable to pull off, although the golden age of cap stall is over.

    edit:

    one more thing again:

    trick/choice ruins rev
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