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CAP Revision CAP Tutor Move Additions

Discussion in 'CAP Policy Review' started by tennisace, Sep 14, 2009.

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  1. tennisace

    tennisace
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    For completeness, we're going to give all the CAPs new tutor moves. I know that some CAPs have tutor moves, but there are a few that don't.

    So, here's how this thread is going to work. I asked 8 people to make mini tutor movepools. These people will post them here when they're done, to get feedback from the community.

    Rules:
    • Do not post lists of tutor moves for Pokemon.
    • You must fully support every change you wish to make, with either competitive or flavor reasoning, depending on the move in question. Competitive moves ignore flavor reasoning completely.
    • Only comment on one movepool at a time, and only comment on moves you think should be added or removed.
    • Do not suggest moves other than these given tutor moves. This includes movepool changes and new egg moves.
    The people submitting movepools are:

    Stellar - Syclant
    Bass - Revenankh
    tennisace - Pyroak
    Plus - Fidgit
    Beej - Stratagem
    darkie - Arghonaut
    Elevator Music - Kitsunoh
    Magmortified - Cyclohm

    Here are the eligible moves:

    Competitive Moves
    Bounce
    Low Kick
    Aqua Tail
    Earth Power
    Iron Head
    Seed Bomb
    Signal Beam
    Super Fang
    Heat Wave
    Outrage
    Superpower
    Endeavor
    Pain Split
    Knock Off
    Sucker Punch
    Icy Wind
    Trick
    Vacuum Wave
    Fire Punch
    Ice Punch
    Thunderpunch
    Zen Headbutt
    Block
    Gravity
    Magic Coat
    Magnet Rise
    Synthesis
    Heal Bell
    Tailwind

    Flavor Moves
    Headbutt
    Gastro Acid
    Gunk Shot
    Mud-slap
    Rollout
    Ancientpower
    Ominous Wind
    Iron Defense
    Twister
    Sky Attack
    Bug Bite
    Fury Cutter
    Dive
    Air Cutter
    Snore
    String Shot
    Worry Seed
    Helping Hand
    Spite
    Swift
    Last Resort
    Role Play
    Uproar

    These lists are not set in stone. Some competitive moves won't be competitive on some Pokemon, and some flavor moves may be competitive (I can already see an example). Have fun, and happy debating!

    Edit: For the CAP Pokemon with tutor moves already, include them anyway and split them up into their respective lists. In addition, if a tutor move is already in the Pokemon's movepool by some other method, it gets it.

    Edit2: You can also suggest the new HM05 Whirlpool

    Do not post lists of moves or your post will be moderated.
  2. tennisace

    tennisace
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    Pyroak's Moves

    Competitive Moves
    • Earth Power - AAAA this is what Pyroak has been waiting for forever. It won't break Pyroak at all, but now Pyroak isn't walled by Fire Types. However, Salamence still laughs.
    • Seed Bomb - It gets it as an egg move
    • Outrage - Its draconic, and some people could use it on a Howl set?
    • Knock Off - Good all-around support move.
    • Block - Decent enough support move, I could see some fun trapping mence or something and hitting it with Ice Punch.
    • Synthesis - It gets it as a level-up move.

    Flavor Moves
    • Headbutt - It's got a head, and a butt.
    • Gastro Acid - A lot of Grass-types get Poison moves. Also I enjoy the idea of Pyroak spewing flaming hot acid all over some poor, unsuspecting Delibird.
    • Gunk Shot - A lot of Grass-types get Poison moves.
    • Mud-slap - Gets Mud Bomb, and it can kick mud in your face?
    • Snore - Everyone gets it.
    • String Shot - SPIDER PYROAK, SPIDER PYROAK. Don't those cannons look like big web shooters?
    • Worry Seed - All Grass-types get it.
    • Helping Hand - Everything gets it with hands.
    • Last Resort - Why not?
    • Uproar - Gets Roar, and it seems loud.
    • Heat Wave - All Fire-types get this.
    • Low Kick - It looks like it can kick.
    • Fire Punch - All Fire-types with arms get this.
    • Iron Head - Its got Rock Head, so why not Iron Head?
    • Endeavor - It's endeavored to make itself better for a while...
    • Iron Defense - Rock Head, Iron Head, Battle Armor, why not?
    • Thunderpunch - Zap Cannon.
    • Zen Headbutt - It's got a head and a butt ect.
  3. Infiltrator

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    Finally the CAPs get the tutor moves addition. Great work tennis, I love the combination between Block and the E-Punches. Though I don't really see Pyroak punching with those huge cannons. But I still like it a lot.

    I was looking forward to see Iron Defense up there as well.
  4. reyscarface

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    Just a little thing, why Ice Punch on Pyroak? As far as i know, even fire pokemons with hands cannot use Ice Punch.
  5. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
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    I think Pyroak should get Snore, since it can get Uproar and Roar. As a side not, it Caterpie can use it, shouldn't Oak be able to, too? Also, it should get Iron Defense, since it has Rock Head and Battle Armor. If it gets Iron Head, shouldn't it get Iron Defense?

    edit: Derp, it already has snore lol
  6. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    ice punch is a fully competitive move, so flavour isn't taken into account at all. pyroak needs ice punch very badly to deal with dragon threats.

    I like it, tennisace. I like it a lot. I was sort of hoping for superpower, but meh. (did you know that blissey can often shut down even physical pyroak sets? )

    plus - I'd really rather not see thunderpunch added to fidgit's movepool. when I'm battling, fidgit is one pokemon that I really want to have a hard counter for because it can set up so quickly. I don't want to have to worry about random thunderpunches when I switch gyarados in, especially coming from a ground-type
  7. Plus

    Plus real vibes
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    Fidgit's Moves

    Competitive Moves

    Earth Power - already in its movepool

    Seed Bomb - This is an interesting addition to Fidgit's movepool. Being able to hit pokemon like Swampert is a nice concept, yet it is not broken.

    Knock Off - Already gets it

    Icy Wind - Perhaps hitting Salamence on a switch in?

    Ice Punch - Same as above

    Thunderpunch - This could possibly prove useful in hitting Gyarados. Gyarados loves scoring free turns off of Fidgit.

    Block - Already gets it

    Gravity - Already gets it

    Tailwind - Already gets it

    Flavor Moves
    Headbutt - It has a head, doesn't it?
    Gastro Acid - It's poison type
    Gunk Shot - already gets it
    Mud-slap - already gets it
    Rollout - Fidgit can roll into a ball. It can do anything.
    Snore - already gets it
    Helping Hand - already gets it
    Swift - Looks fine to me.
    Last Resort - Same as above.
    Role Play - It can definitely "Role Play", to say the least. It sounds like a fitting move for a Fidgit.
    Uproar - With Vital Spirit and an upbeat personality, Fidgit should definitely get Uproar.
  8. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
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    ------
    Competitive Moves
    ------
    Low Kick - STAB
    Aqua Tail - STAB
    Iron Head - may be useful. gives more offensive options.
    Superpower - STAB
    Knock Off - useful on a defensive support set
    Sucker Punch -
    Icy Wind - already gets it
    Ice Punch - already gets it
    Thunderpunch - already gets it
    Magic Coat - useful on said defensive support set
    Block - sort of fits with the concept


    ------
    Flavor Moves
    ------
    Headbutt - it has a head
    Gunk Shot - certainly an octopus thingy can shoot gunk
    Twister
    Whirlpool - Twister and Whirlpool both make sense on a squid-like thing
    Dive - already gets it
    Snore
    Uproar
  9. cyberzero

    cyberzero
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    I was hoping that Fidgit would be able to get Heal Bell as part of its tutor moves, as it really helps with the support and would really help save space during team building.
  10. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    I'd like to suggest Super Fang for Pyroak. I know it is a very controversial move, but considering that breaking down opposing walls is one of the few things Pyroak isn't actually outclassed by its Grass-type brothers (and that, beside all, Pyroak has always been somehow underwhelming from the day it had been released), it would fit in nicely IMO - or at least it deserves some consideration.

    Oh, and please, don't say that Pyroak does not look like it could Super Fang. Besides the fact that it actually seems to have fangs, the OP clearly states:

    Just for the sake of clarification
  11. Elevator Music

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    Shitsun's moves:

    Competitive moves:
    Iron Head - "already gets it"
    Superpower - " "
    Endeavor - It has the speed to not suck with Endeavor and gets priority (lol)
    Knock Off - " "
    Icy Wind - " "
    Trick - " "
    Ice Punch - " "
    Thunderpunch - " "
    Magic Coat - Could be a nice gimmick, making Kitsunoh a slightly better lead...

    Flavor moves:
    Low Kick - inferior to brick break/superpower in almost every case but why not, it can kick
    Super Fang - it's cute... though kitsunoh can 2HKO most pokemon anyways.
    Pain Split - why not
    Headbutt - because it can
    Mud-slap - why not
    Ominous Wind - " "
    Snore - " "
    Spite - " "
    Last Resort - why not
    Role Play - cool move why not... also the mask makes me think of drama like role playing heh
  12. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    I was also thinking that Fidgit, being the master of utility, it would be able to use Trick. Plus, with 8 hands, it might be pretty easy to use Trick.
  13. tennisace

    tennisace
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    I think Super Fang is one of the most broken moves in the game period; there's a reason that only UU/NU Pokemon get it. Besides, Pyroak isn't supposed to be a wall breaker, it's supposed to be a wall/tank. I just don't think it fits with Pyroak's purpose, and I think Super Fang would push it over the edge.
  14. Plus

    Plus real vibes
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    My main concern with Fidgit is giving it too much. I really do think it has what it needs, and while it may seem very fit for the job of Trick or Heal Bell, I don't think that it's exactly healthy for the metagame. It already gets Encore, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Light Screen, Reflect, Wish, U-turn, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. To top it off, it has a decent offensive movepool to kill off what it needs. I really don't want to go overkill here. The niche of Fidgit looks fine as it is now.

    If we were to add Trick onto Fidgit, I could very well picture another way for Fidgit to dominate the current metagame as it is already. While Fidgit is in no way overpowering at the moment, it could be overpowering if we give Fidgit too many moves.

    @UD - I understand your concern, though Gyarados is not the only way to deal with Fidgit. The moves I outlined are overall pretty controversial imo, so some additional feedback could be nice.
  15. HD

    HD

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    I believe SuperPower should be added. SuperPower on the physical sets allow Pyroak to beat Heatran, Blissey and Snorlax. Since Pyroak's meager base 70 attack, it can't afford to go physically mixed to accomadate Earth Power. Also, SuperPower would help on the Wallbreaker set to allow (as previously mentioned) to beat Blissey, Snorlax and Heatran.

    I also think Vacuum Wave should be added.Vacuum Wave allows it to revenge kill weakened Lucario, Infernape, ScrafTran, Syclant and Stratagem to name a few. And don't the cannons look like vacuums or like they could suck up stuff?

    Everything looks good tennis. Just those two competitive moves that could go on. I'll check the others a bit later.
  16. Illithian-Z

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    I agree with HD on both accounts. Superpower would be enormously beneficial for Pyroak, making his physical sets something other then a gimmick that can be walled by a Blissey (if played right). And lets be honest, how many times have you seen Pyroak running a Howl set?

    More to the point, how many times have you seen a Pyroak in general? ;)

    Also I agree for Vacuum Wave. Pyroak could really use some kind of priority for his special sets. And its not like itl break him; Vacuum Wave wouldn't see any use on Resttalk or tank sets, and rarely on Growth sets. Still it would be a nice option to have.
  17. Pink

    Pink

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    I just want to add something for everyone to consider. The point of these tutors aren't exactly to make x pokemon more competitive... Yes, it is great that we can add things like Trick, E-punches, ect. to the CAP creations. However, we need to remember the way movepools are generated for every CAP. There needs to be reason to believe the Pokemon can use the attack before we consider the competitive value of the move. This may sound trivial, but it's an important point so we can produce a Pokemon that can be as accurate as possible for in-game standards.

    Yes, there are cases where Gamefreak hasn't made any sense, like not giving Lickitung Lick in generation one, and Pokemon using attacks they obviously have no limbs for. Still, I hope people can remember that before we consider the competitive value of attacks, we consider the plausibility that a Pokemon could use it. For example, Pyroak using Ice Punch. We should ask.

    1) Is there basis to believe he can use a punch, when his arms are rather large and lack fists to punch with.
    2) Is there basis that a Fire Pokemon should be able to use the move ice punch?
    3) If there is, is it plausible that Pyroak would be able to do so as well.

    This is just an example I feel everyone should think of when proposing or debunking possible move tutors for CAP pokemon.
  18. Illithian-Z

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    Pink, Tennisace said specifically

    And Ice Punch is most definitely a competitive move.

    However, if we are to assume flavoring should be involved, its worth pointing out that after about 15 minutes of hopeful searching, I have yet to find any Pokemon that is part fire type that learns an ice move.
  19. Deck Knight

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    Subtract: Ice Punch

    I have difficulty justifying Ice Punch as competitive in the first place. Pyroak can already deal with most dragons more competently with Will-O-Wisp or Reflect, it hardly needs an attack that is generally worthless except on 3 particular OU pokemon in theory: Salamence, Latias, and Dragonite. Even then, 75 Base Power on 70 Base Attack is weak, especially with Mence having Intimidate, Latias packing Recover, and Dragonite occasionally carrying Roost. Howl is a pretty weak brew, especially since it still fails vs. DD + Roost Mence, Trick Latias renders it pointless, etc.

    In short I don't believe Ice Punch is competitive on Pyroak, which bumps it down to flavor moves. And as a flavor move, Ice Punch doesn't fit Pyroak whatsoever. There is only one remotely viable set Ice Punch adds value to, and that is the gimmicky Choice Band set. By that logic, every CAP should have Fire, Thunder, and Ice Punch because it can net them a OHKO or 2HKO on Scizor/Gyara/Mence.

    I also believe Thunderpunch and Zen Headbutt are flavor moves, but I don't have any flavor reasoning to oppose them. Gyarados has Intimidate and doesn't like eating STAB Wood Hammer and Grass Knot already, or getting burned. Zen Headbutt does pathetic damage to both Revenankh (uses Bulk Up) and Arghonaut (ignores Howl boosts anyway, has no business facing Pyroak to begin with).

    Add: Pain Split. Pain Split makes a Battle Armor set much more viable, since healthy opponents will need to be able to secure a KO or else Pyroak will heal itself. It makes it much harder to stall Pyroak down as well, since it can recover large sums of HP on a Resting, Roosting, or Recovering pokemon. Pain Split + Leech Seed is going to be annoying imo.

    Add: Superpower. Ironically this would make a Choice Band set more viable, but as it stands it would be a way for physical Pyroak to dispatch Heatran without excessive difficulty. Superpower's drawbacks are more than enough to keep it safely within useful but not broken territory.

    All of these look fine.
  20. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    While the whole "competitive movepools disregard flavor" thing still applies, there is absolutely not a single Fire-type that learns Ice Punch, just like there are only three Steel-types that get Fire Punch (one of which has a non-steel prevo), and Water-types other than Lombre/Ludicolo do not learn ThunderPunch. I'm all for saying that something's competitive movepool should be bolstered as much as possible when it is warranted, but there's also a little GF precedent involved here. In this case, it's not about flavor, but about holding true to the precedent set by the many Fire-types in the entire game.

    Basically, I'm with Pink here in that while flavor shouldn't discount moves, there is some precedent.
  21. Stellar

    Stellar
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    Syclant

    Competitive Moves
    Aqua Tail - This could be used over Superpower if Syclant wanted to hit Heatran without taking the stat drops of Superpower.
    Earth Power - Already has it.
    Superpower - Had it once, when it was taken away, Syclant began to suck. Scizor is more than common enough to keep Syclant in check. I really don't think this is too much in the current game.
    Vacuum Wave - Useful on a Tail Glow set. But, Syclant would be using Superpower more often than not due to Blissey.
    Ice Punch - Already has it.

    Flavor Moves
    Bounce - Already has it.
    Magic Coat - Seems like it could reflect stuff due to its shininess.
    Tailwind - Seems like it could call forth some frigid wind (see Icy Wind).
    Knock Off - Already has it.
    Icy Wind - Already has it.
    Super Fang - Probably the only CAP that this makes sense on. It has pretty huge fangs. This isn't going to be used much because Syclant is better off just setting up.
    Signal Beam - Already has it.
    Headbutt - It has a head.
    Gastro Acid - Insects are known for spewing acidic stuff.
    Gunk Shot - See above.
    Mud-slap - Already has it.
    Ancientpower - Giant bug seems pretty prehistoric.
    Bug Bite - It's a bug. With teeth.
    Fury Cutter - Bug with sharp claws.
    Air Cutter - Already has it.
    Snore - Already has it.
    String Shot - It's a bug.
    Helping Hand - Although not immediately useful, could be once 2v2 in SB2 is released.
    Swift - Already has it.
    Uproar - ...*crickets*...
  22. tennisace

    tennisace
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    Precedent is the "flavor" of Gamefreak. However I now agree with Deck's competitive argument that Ice Punch is quite meh, and now that Pyroak can get Earth Power, it frees up HP Ice.

    However Pain Split takes the HP of the two opposing Pokemon and averages them, meaning Pokemon with high HP get shafted. Pyroak has 120 Base HP, meaning most of the time, it will hurt Pyroak and heal the other Pokemon.

    Finally, who uses CBOak? I'm fine with adding Superpower, but it seems even more unnecessary than Ice Punch, and the defense drop is counterintuitive on a defensive Pokemon.
  23. Plus

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    I don't think we should be quick to judge a CaP that arguably most of us do not know a lot about. While I do agree with "Who uses CBOak?", the real problem is that none of us really even use Pyroak that much (successfully, mind you ^_^). Our overall ladder stats don't really accurately portray such a wide variety of the metagame so it shouldn't be based entirely on that. Let's also keep in mind that a lot of the server folk who actually see raises and drops in usage are not present in this thread. For example, a couple users laddered with Stratagem leads during May and it became the #1 lead fast. That is nigh impossible in SU, and that does not mean that Stratagem Leads dominate the metagame way more than a Metagross lead in OU.

    The thing here is that large statements that you can find in CaP aren't particularly easy to find without being slightly false. Honestly if there's a theory for a move that it could *possibly* work, we might as well try it. Current ideas didn't come to be in the current metagame by simply adhering to strict standard shit, it became what it has been through experimentation.

    I for one think that Physical oak, despite its measly Attack, is one of the most efficient Pyroak sets, although it is pretty meh to start with. I support Superpower and Ice Punch. I don't think instantly shooting down something because it sucks at a glance is good when there's actually some reasoning behind it. On the other hand, it's definitely not broken as well, as even pure theorymon can tell us. Flavor arguments that overall hurt the competitive reasoning behind it (no fire type learns it) are things i really don't think we should care about. It's not a rule to say that fire types cannot learn ice moves, nor should GF even give a shit about our project goals - to explore.
  24. Deck Knight

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    You would use Pain Split in something like the following scenario: You have a 419 HP Max Def (152/252)( Pyroak at say 75% and an opposing Tyranitar at 100% health. Max Atk unboosted TTar Stone Edge does 60-72% damage. Most Tyranitar seem to have around 180 HP EVs.

    Lets say Pyroak gets knocked down to 9% HP (average damage), this leaves Pyroak with 38 HP, while Tyranitar has 386. After a pain split they both end up with 212. While Pyroak can't take another Stone Edge at that HP level, it went from 9% to 50% while taking away about 40% of Tyranitar's HP (factoring leftovers for Pyroak and TTar). That's generally how you would use it. You could also use it to fully heal against stalling whores like Curselax and Blissey. In fact it'd be pretty tough for any attacker to deal with Battle Armor Pyroak with a set like Sub/Leech Seed/Pain Split/Lava Plume based on the fact any attack it survives it can use to jump back to a decent health percentage, or at least enough to Sub again.

    In any event, I think Pain Split has competitive merit. It has a lot of potential to plumb on a pokemon that has solid defenses and can't get crit-haxed.

    Eagerly awaiting the rest of the CAPs to be posted for more input.

    Edit:

    Arrrrrrrrgggggh:

    Subtract: Block. No. No. A thousand times no. I can see the Trapnaut set already: Block/Bulk Up/Waterfall/Superpower. I hope you have Specs Zapdos hanging in reserve or you're toast. Immunity to stat-up moves combined with one of the best stat-ups in the game is overpowering. You might ask why I have Superpower on here and not BB. Primarily because I'm 100% certain +5 Arghonaut can OHKO Salamence and Gyarados with Superpower, and you can just Bulk Up again whenever you please. Nothing is going to break through Max HP/SpD +6 Def Arghonaut in one shot.

    Whatevs.
  25. billymills

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    No pokemon, ever, uses block. It prevents WHATEVER THE OPPONENT SENT OUT from switching out. If your opponent has no defense against no-heal, 2-attack Arghonaut, they deserve to lose. Yes a block set is dangerous (I'd recommend rest over Superpower), but there ARE other ones out there like it. None of which get used.

    It would be relatively easy for something such as celebi, zapdos, or starmie generally bulky pokemon to come in, status/stall it out (GK, T-Bolt, Psychic). A OHKO is NOT necessary.


    I am however in support of your argument against Ice Punch on pyroak. The 120 STABs are already ridiculously powerful. Adding more coverage (against the more common of the two types used to counter Howl Pyroak) is probably too much. Salamence should be a good counter to that set.

    T-punch on the otherhand is underwhelming, and is more then likely flavor. If there is a competitive reason for it (Gyarados is probably not enough), then by all means include it, otherwise I don't like it (from a flavor stand point).
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