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CAP Ubers Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by Plus, Sep 4, 2009.

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  1. Plus

    Plus real vibes
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    The CAP Ubers Discussion Thread

    With a possible CAP Tour in the making, CAP is going to be offering a new metagame in which we need to explore. Here is the CAP Ubers discussion thread, where you may discuss your experiences with CAPs performing in Ubers, as well as showing logs, what works, what does not, etc. We won't know if CAP Ubers is as similar to Ubers as CAP OU is to OU. Whenever you have the time, drop by the CAP server and request some CAP Ubers battles so we can test stuff out. For reference, here is the CAP Strategy Pokedex.

    I'll need a couple of helpers here with this thread, as CAP is quite small in terms of Ubers players. For now, I want some insight as to how well the CAPs perform. Give a short analysis on the metagame as well if you can.

    Currently, I am planning on making a short guide on the metagame for easier reference. However, Ubers is not my expertise -- so I will need you guys to help me out in finishing this!
  2. Plus

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    CAP Ubers Guide

    Post reserved for Guide

    Now, the "guide" isn't going to be on-site as far as I know, so I can tolerate rough, messy stuff. The purpose of this guide is for a quick reference as to how CAP Ubers is different.

    TO BE DONE:

    CAP Ubers Analysis

    Reserved
    Finished
    In Progress

    -Syclant Ubers Analysis - Reserved by cyberzero
    -Revenankh Ubers Analysis

    -Pyroak Ubers Analysis
    - Reserved by HD -Fidgit Ubers Analysis - Reserved by locopoke -Stratagem Ubers Analysis - Reserved by Beej
    -Arghonaut Ubers Analysis
    -Kitsunoh Ubers Analysis - Reserved by locopoke

    -Cyclohm Ubers Analysis

    Any set mentioned must get some testing first before become a standard set.

    CAP Ubers and Ubers Differences

    All I want here is a couple of users submitting paragraphs that accurately portray the CAP Ubers metagame. Should certain pokemon run different moves now that there are more threats to the Ubers metagame? (Ex. Metagross runs Zen Headbutt as a standard move in the CAP Metagame)

    What works? What doesn't?

    I need some people to fill others in on what excels currently in the CAP Ubers Metagame, including regular Ubers. Have they changed in usefulness?

    Other Useful Tidbits

    Everything else goes here. Logs, Warstories, anything that gives a significant enough picture of the CAP Ubers Metagame, but does not fit anywhere else will go here.

    Short Fidgit/Kitsunoh blurb by locopoke
    Quick Metagame Analysis by Gen. Empoleon
    Quick Metagame Analysis by Seven Deadly Sins
  3. cyberzero

    cyberzero
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    I can take the Syclant set for CAP Ubers. I'll get into specifics for each set a little later, after I do a little more testing.

    Syclant is graced with not only very good offensive stats, but two STABs that hit the majority of those in the Ubers metagame for Super Effective damage. Quite a lot of Dragons and Psychic-types are common in the Uber tier, and Syclant can use STAB attacks from either side of the spectrum to bring them down. Although its defenses are weak, Syclant outspeeds many Ubers and can use STAB Priority Ice Shard to hit those that are faster, as Pokemon like Shaymin-S and Deoxys-A which are faster than Syclant are generally also quite frail.
  4. locopoke

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    To be quite honest, I haven't really thought about CAP Ubers much before but at first glance I can see many of the CaP's being useful in the uber metagame.

    Fidgit is the first that comes to mind. Thanks to his typing and ability (vital spirit), Fidgit makes a great switch-in to Darkrai, resisting Focus Blast and having an immunity to sleep gives him the green light to switch in without hesitation. Not only that, but Fidgit has the defensive capabilities to take a few Dark Pulses (with the right EVs of course) and set up layers while even being able to heal back to full health with Wish. Not only that, but he is definetely capable of playing the lead role too. Shadow Ball and Rapid Spin give him the ability to take on Deoxys-e while keeping entry hazards off of the field, and seeing as how Ice Beam is rare on Deoxys-a leads, the same goes for them. Although, seeing as Fidgit is better than Forretress (in some ways), I'm sure his usage will rise and Deoxys-a will begin to run Ice Beam instead of Fire Punch / HP Fire, so running a Fidgit lead with Yache Berry may also become viable.

    Kitsunoh also comes to mind as a great counter to SD Ray and DD Ray (better than Dialga in some ways). Kitsunoh's immunity to Extreme Speed and resistance to Dragon Claw / Outrage make him the perfect Rayquaza counter. With Choice Scarf, he has enough speed to easily outrun +1 Ray and KO with Ice Punch. Something else that you don't see often in Ubers is Trick, which Kitsunoh can utilize perfectly, this will also serve as an answer to stall teams. Once the Scarf is tricked, one Pokemon on the opposing team is crippled for the rest of the battle, giving you a huge advantage. Some other options for Kitsunoh are WoW for Groudon switch-ins as well as Momento which gives Kitsunoh the ability to be used as support on Baton Pass teams.

    For now, some other Pokemon that deserve a quick mention are Pyroak and Arghonaut. Thanks to Unaware and good defensive stats, Arghonaut can deal with just about any stat booster, especially SD and DD Ray assuming he has enough HP left to take an LO Dragon Claw (with max/max impish he doesn't need much to survive). Pyroak has good typing since Rock type moves and Flying type moves are rare in Ubers and I can see a Leech Seed set causing some trouble for a lot of pokemon.

    edit- reserving fidgit
  5. Plus

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    I'd just like to clarify that you just need to take out the sets that do not work in CAP Ubers from the analysis in OU, and then modify other sets that function well in CAP Ubers. Opinion, Team Options, and Counters should be revamped accordingly as well.
  6. locopoke

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    If it's alright I'd also like to reserve Kitsunoh. Also, just because one person is reserving a Pokemon that doesn't mean others aren't free to help them out and contribute by giving them ideas for viable sets. This will actually be appreciated so feel free to post sets here.


    I'll post some of Fidgit's sets later, they still need some work.
  7. HD

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    I'd like to request Pyroak. Grass+Fire abuses the Sun and punishes Kyogre switch-ins. Added to the fact Leech Seed paired with Toxic Spikes would cause switches and be annoying as hell.


    EDIT: He'res a Pyroak set:

    Name: SubSeed
    Move 1: Substitute
    Move 2: Leech Seed
    Move 3: Grass Knot
    Move 4: Lava Plume
    Item: Leftovers
    ability: Battle Armor
    EVs: 160 HP / 96 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Nature: Modest

    Pyroak is an effective SubSeeder, with his two great STABs and respectable defenses.

    The combination of Substitute and Leech Seed allows it to beat most types of stall, aswell as drain the HP of stat-uppers such as Calm Mind Giratina-O and Bulk Up Dialga.

    The two attacking moves of choice where chosen for a reason. Grass Knot hits Groudon and Kyogre for super effective damage. In fact, if the Support Groudon set takes even a little bit of prior damage, it would be OHKOed. The 4 HP / 0 SDef Kyogre will always be 2HKOed, so even the King of Ubers can not switch-i safely. Lava Plume was chosen to hit the many steel-types of the Uber tier, and utilizing it's side affect to Burn physical or mixed attackers, such as Groudon, Dialga and Rayquaza.

    The EVs are a bit complicated however. The 160 HP EVs hits 421 HP, allowing you to use Substitute four times and be left with one HP, and it gets maximum Leftovers and Leech Seed recovery. 96 SAtk and Modest allows you to OHKO Support Groudon with just a little bit of prior damage and it gets the 2HKO on Groudon. 252 Spe EVs allows you to outspeed Support Groudon by one point.

    Anything that resists Pyroaks STABs, does not mind getting Burned, outspeeds Pyroak and can break his Substitutes is good. Otherwise, you would have to rely on status and/or residual damage to beat him.

    Opinions? Suggestions? Feedback? Questions?
  8. locopoke

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    With the EVs you mentioned, Pyroak hits 206 speed which isn't enough to outrun Giratina-O. This means that Gira will just sub up to avoid Leech Seed and start CMing with resistances to both Grass and Fire. As for Bulk-up Dialga, he resists Grass Knot and doesn't take much damage from Lava Plume. All he has to do is start using Bulk Up and then recover with Rest and start Sleep Talking and rape your whole team, Leech Seed damage isn't stopping him from doing that. In your words:

    subCM gira-o and bulk up Dialga both fall into this category, so..?????

    In my opinion I don't think Pyroak needs max speed. He resists Scizor's Bullet Punch and if you invest some EVs into Defense then he won't take much at all from U-turn, same thing goes for Groudon pretty much. I think you need to focus more on his defenses than his speed and special attack.

    Anyway, I'll be posting some more sets for Fidgit and possibly Kitsunoh soon.
  9. Infiltrator

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    LocoPoke, BU Dialga doesn't like its attack weakened by a possible burn. Other that I've been using a MixClant set that has been really cool.

    ~reserving for the set~
  10. Plus

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    Bulk Up Dialga runs Rest/BU/ST/Dragon Claw or Outrage. @_@

  11. HD

    HD

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    Pyroak is able to outstall Giratina-O if it has a sub up when it comes in. And BUDialga may be able to rest it's burn off, but how long till it runs out of rest PP? While Dialga walls Pyroak, it would usually switch-in on an resisted attack, which gives you the free turn to Sub. Since you outspeed, Leech Seed while they do whatever, and attack or Sub up when nessacary. I may have been wrong about Giratina-O though. I'm actually not sure about the Speed EVs. Most of you saw Pyroak take an RPDon's EQ and, then KO and live a Syclant Blizzard and survive so that it could KO. I'm thinking of beefing up the defenses would be the best way. And loco, with the EVs I mentioned I hit 219 Speed.
  12. Infiltrator

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    Oh really ? The BU set I was thinking about didn't have REST/ST o_o .. I'm a noob

    I'm sure you mean 219 Speed, not 2199 lol
  13. locopoke

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    Rofl what??

    How exactly is Pyroak able to outstall Giratina-O? Gira outruns and resists Grass Knot and Lava Plume. All he has to do is use Substitute and start CMing while you 6hko his subs. So how are you outstalling him?

    As for "outstalling Dialga" (rofl), how do you plan on doing this when he has Rest and Pressure? All he has to do is Bulk Up as much as he wants and then Rest without using Sleep Talk while you waste 4 PP of a move. But of course he can always Sleep Talk and use Outrage and start to break your subs until you're down to 25%. I really just don't see how you can even think about outstalling a Pokemon who has Rest and Pressure, it's just not possible. So like I said before, focus on his defenses, not his speed, it isn't helping him very much at all.
  14. locopoke

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    Sorry for the double post, but I felt the need to bump this thread and finally post the Lead Fidgit set. I've been using it on my current team and it works in just about every battle. I'll continue testing it but I really don't think it needs to be tested anymore. It's pretty clear that it works, and I've seen some other users using it as well, they all tell me it's great. So here's the actual set for all of you guys to use (I haven't posted it yet so I don't exactly know what set + spread you've been using, but here it is):

    --

    I'll be posting some more sets for Fidgit and Kitsunoh soon, possibly even later today. Also guys, feel free to test Encore!
  15. Plus

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    No it's not. Even without a CM up, Giratina-O can break a Pyroak's sub. Additionally, how will Pyroak break Giratina's sub? How about with 1 CM up? As for Dialga, 16 turns of using Rest is well enough time for Dialga to get enough Bulk Ups for it to beat Pyroak. It doesn't even need 6. Do you have any logs to prove your theory?

    Regarding your RPdon statement, no I have not. The only time I have seen this is when RPdon killed off your Pyroak with an EQ at around 35% health. Either way, here are some calcs so everybody can see.

    399 Atk vs 246 Def & 421 HP (100 Base Power): 175 - 207 (41.57% - 49.17%)

    That is a Jolly max Attack RP Groudon using EQ on Pyroak. Note that there is no LO involved. While LO is a very common item on RP Groudon, here are some additional calcs to show the damage it does with it.

    399 Atk vs 246 Def & 421 HP (100 Base Power): 228 - 268 (54.16% - 63.66%)

    That's not very impressive, as far as I'm concerned.

    Anyways, let's not get too ahead of ourselves here. It's only been the first day and while the activity is appreciated, let's not rush into completely large statements such as those when all we've played of CAP Ubers is about 20-30 matches.

    EDIT: Do not be afraid to tell us that a certain CAP is total balls in the Ubers metagame. It's completely fine, and could be just as informing than those that say that they are useful in Ubers. Know when things are good in the metagame, and know when things aren't.
  16. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    Plus Rock Polish Groudon run an Adamant nature, not a Jolly Nature, so your calcs do need to be fixed a bit.

    Here is RP don's EQ without Life Orb:
    438 Atk vs 246 Def & 421 HP (100 Base Power): 192 - 226 (45.61% - 53.68%)

    With Life Orb:
    438 Atk vs 246 Def & 421 HP (100 Base Power): 249 - 294 (59.14% - 69.83%)

    Not too much of a difference, but it's still better to have accurate calcs

    EDIT: Pyroak is total balls in ubers, I wouldn't use it over Celebi to be honest. Fidgit is also rather gimmicky. Spiffy can use it's Steel-type resist to come in on Scizor, but that may be it's only use.

    Of course Scylant might be decent with Swords Dance and Ice Shard, X-Scissor, and a filler, but it will still miss hitting Dialga for SE damage, which could be bad. Revenankh is a bit iffy, honestly if you want to run it you could, but it's just a much weaker physical Giratina-o.

    Honestly Stratagem, ARGH (maybe) and Kit are the best CAP pokemon to use in Ubers. Argh can force Swords Dance Rayquaza to hit you with Outrage which will deal about 66% max, though it won't stop special sweepers as easily (though it resists Darkrai's STAB) it has some use. Kit can use a Scarf or Band set rather well, and can help scout out your opponents Choice Scarf pokemon. Stratagem with Calm Mind, Life Orb and Technician can easily sweep ubers with Giga Drain / Earth Power / Paelo Wave.
  17. Plus

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    Whoops. Forgot about that, thanks for the catch. Looks like you did the calcs for me anyways so thanks for fixing those too? ;^_^
  18. locopoke

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    Gen, I'm surprised that you didn't mention Fidgit at all. With Vital Spirit and a few EVs in SpD (read my reply above), Darkrai fails to put him to sleep or 2HKO him with Dark Pulse. He makes for a great lead in ubers, I've tested him a lot and he works almost every battle, managing to get 2 layers up and keeping hazards off of the field.

    Also, why would you mention Argho forcing Rayquaza to Outrage when you can revenge with Kitsunoh? Scarf Kit revenges DD Ray and SD Ray without any problems, and not even Wobbuffet can come in and stop it (first scarfer immune to wobbuffet since Darkrai!!). I'm going to test Strategem and some other Fidgit / Kitsunoh sets and post again with the results. I'm thinking of trying a Scarf Kitsunoh with Trick and Momento for a new kind of baton pass support.
  19. Seven Deadly Sins

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    itt hueg post

    Arghonaut looks like essentially the best counter to Swords Dance Rayquaza that ever existed. If Ray isn't running a Dragon-type attack (common), the very best it can do to Arghonaut is unSTAB EQ, which isn't coming close to 50%. Argh can follow up with an Ice Punch to wreck Ray's day. Actualy, Argh might be the reason that Rayquaza won't be found without Outrage in CAP Ubers.

    Also, Arghonaut is the best counter ever to CM Ogre not carrying Thunder, as well as Bulk Up Dialga, which it can hit with strong STAB Fighting attacks. It'd also be solid to take a look at how it fares against things like NP Darkrai, which has Focus Blast at best to hit Argh. I'm thinking that Arghonaut is essentially going to be amazing for Stall. Things that usually fuck up Uberstall such as Crogre, CM Gira-O, and Bulk Up Dialga get stopped cold for the most part by Argh. Just watch out for Wobbuffet.

    Speaking of Wobbuffet, using Wobb to set up stuff like TG / SD Syclant, CM Stratagem, or start the setup of a Bulk Up Arghonaut could be pretty vicious.

    Like others have covered, Syclant's dual STABs make it great in the Ubers metagame. Running it in tandem with Forretress to spin away rocks would certainly be nice, but Mountaineer seems like it could be really good to switch into random Rock attacks and threaten back, such as switching into choiced Garchomp's Stone Edge or SD Groudon's Stone Edge and proceed to threaten with STAB Ice Beam. It's a tossup between the greater power of Blizzard or the reliability and ability to switch in of Mountaineer. Also, Choice Scarf Syclant with Mountaineer seems like it could be a great way to revenge kill all sorts of scary stuff such as DD Rayquaza, any variant of Garchomp, Nasty Plot Darkrai, and offensive Mewtwo (though the CM might make it iffy to take Mewtwo down if it isn't weakened).

    Stratagem will probably want to run Levitate in this metagame. The ability to switch into Earthquakes from all sorts of stuff can be extremely useful. It can also switch into SD Rayquaza's Earthquakes and revenge it through its resistance to Extremespeed. Adamant max Attack LO +2 Extremespeed deals 61.06% - 71.96% to min/min Stratagem. Meanwhile, STAB SE Paleo Wave makes short work of Rayquaza. I'm thinking Levitate with CM / Energy Ball / Earth Power / Paleo Wave would be solid. It's a shame that Stratagem doesn't get Grass Knot, because that would definitely be a show-stopper against heavy stuff like Groudon.

    Backing Gen in saying that Ankh is just an inferior physical Giratina-O. However, it has the distinct advantages of reliable recovery, unresisted coverage, STAB priority, and not shitting itself when Tyranitar shows its ugly face. The lack of Levitate, lower bulk, and lower power on its attack, as well as the resistances that Dragon provides can be a pain, though. Still, it's hard for Ubers to hit Revenankh SE, making it a lot easier for it to survive. Howerver, Kyogre's insanely powerful STAB Rain-boosted Surf is a terror for it.

    Fidgit seems like it may be good as a lead, but its other utility options seem mediocre. Encore seems like a must on it so that Giratina-O doesn't come in, block the spin, and then start setting up for free, something it does against Wish-based Fidgit. Still, it seems like one of the rare counters to SD Lucario in Ubers, which is nice.

    If we're thinking about Cyclohm, it really seems like there are way too many stronger Dragon attacks that will prey on its weaknesses. The ability to run Thunder for a stronger STAB attack would be kinda nice, but I see it having issues switching into things.

    Kitsunoh seems like it's going to be solid as a Scarfed revenge killer as a way to hit some notable opponents such as Nasty Plot Darkrai, CM Mewtwo, SubCM Giratina-O, DD or SD Rayquaza, and many other things. Unlike standard revenge killers such as Palkia, Kitsunoh does not fear Wobbuffet as much due to its immunity to Counter. However, its mediocre attack and defenses make it potentially a letdown.

    Pyroak sucks. It's an inferior Celebi 99% of the time, and it aint getting anywhere near Ubers any time soon. This is especially notable in Ubers, where it is essentially setup fodder for some of the scariest threats in the entire metagame.
  20. zorbees

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    In addition to what has already been mentioned, Argh can also beat a common stallbreaker, CM/Rest/Surf/Ice Beam Kyogre with help from Blissey. Switch Blissey as your initial counter (once you know it isnt specs) and let it cm up to +4 as you wall it. Once it is +4 switch to Argh and laugh at its Surfs and Ice Beams. With Punishment (200 BP against +4/+4 Kyogre), you can 3HKO it (meaning Rest can't stall you out: You hit it once when it rests and twice while its asleep), as well as hitting things like Mewtwo, Lati@s, and Deoxys-A super-effectively. I run Punishment over Waterfall on the current Standard set, especially since Groudon's Sun weakens Waterfall and Brick Break/Ice Punch cover most everything already. Being a solid Darkrai check is also something stall really needed. The only thing you have to worry about is Wobbuffet allowing Darkrai to set up on you.
  21. Raj

    Raj CAP Playtesting Expert

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    I don't have the patience to write a set or anything, but the other day I got challenged and I accepted using my CAP team, only to find out that my opponent was using an Ubers team. I have the feeling that the player was a noob, but I have to mention how admirably my Pyroak lead did. With SR, Grass Knot, Lava Plume, and Synthesis, I was able to shrug off Draco Meteors/Roar of Times and steadily weaken my opponent. Pyroak KOd his Dialga, Palkia, and something else, as well as burn his Giratina. I'm sure alot of it had to do with the player sucking, but it let me realize that he's got some potential in Ubers, especially with the abundance of auto-weather.
  22. Plus

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    While I do appreciate this, I don't think any battling from a "noob" would give any real facts about a metagame. There have been people using UUs and gimmicks to beat these so called noobs, yet they are really poor and lackluster otherwise. In a real Ubers match, Lead Pyroak would not be able to get rocks up with Taunt Deoxys or a Lead Darkrai running around.
  23. Matthew

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    To add on to this I decided to run some calcs to see if Pyroak was able to "shrug" anything off in the metagame, what I found was this:

    Max HP / SpDef Pyroak against a 140 SpAtk Lead Dialga's Draco Meteor:
    404 Atk vs 306 Def & 444 HP (140 Base Power): 199 - 235 (44.82% - 52.93%)

    Max HP / Def Pyroak against a Max Atk Groudon's Earthquake (no LO):
    438 Atk vs 339 Def & 444 HP (140 Base Power): 195 - 229 (43.92% - 51.58%)

    Max HP / SpDef Pyroak agsint a Max SpAtk Kyogre's Water Spout:
    438 Atk vs 306 Def & 444 HP (150 Base Power): 346 - 408 (77.93% - 91.89%)

    Max SpAtk Pyroak using Lava Plumeagainst max HP 116 SpDef Dialga:
    317 Atk vs 265 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 206 - 246 (50.99% - 60.89%)

    This isn't even considering that Pyroak cannot run all of these sets at once, so a Pyroak lead will either beat one lead while losing to another. Though to be fair Max Attack Grass Knot will pretty much be a OHKO against a lead Groudon, but Pyroak still loses a chunk of its health thanks to Stab Earthquake.
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