CAP Updates: Arghonaut Discussion (Complete)

[Snorlax in the way]

Should Arghonaut receive a competitive ability? If so, how should that ability interact with Unaware?
Yes, 200%. I am an advocator that A. all capmons should have 3 abilities (of course 2 competitive and 1 flavor) and B. that each capmon ability work as an alternative for its main ability. I will use this same philosophy with Arghonaut. Arghonaut should receive a second competitive ability, that interacts with Unaware in a way that both Unaware and the new ability have viable reasons to be considered when choosing to put Arghonaut on a team. Both should have pros and cons, and one should not drastically overshadow the other.

How do you see a new competitive ability impacting Arghonaut's usage in the metagame?
I see a new competitive ability raising Arghonaut's usage. New tools with interesting ways to play lead to a fun and enjoyable experience.

If a competitive ability is selected, do you believe Arghonaut should be eligible for a third, flavor-based ability?

I believe that it should receive a flavor ability, it would not be the end of the world without one though. A flavor ability for every cap player's favorite pirate.

 

[dwarfstar]

I'm in favor of giving Arghonaut a second competitive ability, so long as it's a relatively niche one. I'd be OK with either changing its matchups a little bit in its main role with that new ability or giving it a secondary niche, no strong preference there, although I will say I think Swift Swim is one of the more attractive options. If we do give it a second competitive ability, I'm open to Arghonaut being eligible for a tertiary ability that's just pure flavor, but I don't think it needs one.

 

[Menshay]

As a general consideration, if a second ability is considered enough I do not think a third one should be an absolute requirement. This would be mainly a future-proofing measure: leaving the third slot empty means leaving the door open to a further ability update in an eventual later generation. Granted, abilities can be changed, but adding instead of replacing feels more elegant as well as more consistent with known Game Freak behaviour.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I'm on mobile, so excuse any mistake.

1.
Not if we don't have to.While, yes, it would be nice for Arghonaut to get a sweet new, viable ability, Unaware is already a very solid ability, as it makes or breaks certain Mons (Quagsire). If we were to add an ability, It should be flavor, or a small niche.

2.
It would probably boost it usage slightly for a bit, and fall back down due to its other flaws.

3.
Absolutely not. I already stated that it should only get flavor ability or a more situational ability, which can also be considered flavor. Any further additions would be repetitive and unnecessary.

Overall, I think Arghonaut is fine ability wise, and we should invest more time into its movepool.

 

[DarkSlay]

Opinions on a second competitive ability tend to be split, but I want to point out a few things that I see trending in discussions and my reactions/responses to them.

Unaware is great individually, within a vacuum, but how does Arghonaut currently use it? It's easy to go "ignoring stat changes is good", but a lot of popular set-up sweepers don't really care about Arghonaut's ability (Z-Fly/Z-Bounce sweepers, Special Attackers, etc.). We discussed this a bit on Showdown!, but the list of Pokemon that Arghonaut beats due to having Unaware is not as large as people think (he either loses to things outright or already beats them by being its typing). Keep in mind that it's not enough to just say that "Unaware is a good ability". Apply it to Arghonaut and then explain its effectiveness, using our past discussion as framework. This may shape or alter what Arghonaut would like or need for its overall kit.

Pokemon with multiple usable abilities exist. Clefable is probably the penultimate example, but there's also Pokemon like Salamence, Gyarados, Naviathan, Stratagem, Excadrill, Greninja, Breloom (historically), Marowak-A, offensive Cyclohm, and other fringe examples that use two or more abilities very well and evenly. The existence of one good ability should not rule out a second good ability if a new ability would enable Arghonaut to carry out its goal in a beneficial way.

It does seem like a majority of people don't approve of three abilities for Argh, so I will definitely take that into account. Keep the discussion going!

 

[david0895]

We should look against who is useful this ability.

The pokemon in OU and CAP that can boost itself are: Charizard X, Excadrill under sand, offensive Garchomp, Gyarados, Mega Gyarados, Kartana, Landorus-T, Magearna, A-Marowak, Mega Mawile, Pheromosa, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Salamence, Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, Zygarde, Aurumoth, Cawmodore, Naviathan and Revenankh.
Someone can be easily taken, but there others than can bypass this ability using other ways like z-moves, abilities or more simply with a supereffective move.

That's why I'm for adding another useful ability.

 

[Bughouse]

Unaware helps Arghonaut against a pretty small list of Pokemon. This isn't a metagame with like DD TTar, BU Revenankh, SD and TG Syclant, and SD Lucario as overwhelmingly powerful and popular threats.

Arghonaut had unaware with stopping DPP threats in mind, and it is pretty far off from being a relevant ability today.

These days it helps with what? SD chomp, SD non-Supersonic Strike Lando-T, Cawmodore, Char-X, Manaphy, and Zygarde? But all it really does back to most of these is phaze anyway. Most of these threats beat Arghonaut unboosted anyway.

Arghonaut doesn't /need/ another useful ability but it could use it.

 

[jas61292]

Arghonaut doesn't /need/ another useful ability but it could use it.

I think this is the key. I'd argue that all of the points made early in this thread about how Arghonaut struggles and what it needs points clearly to needed changes in the movepool. While an ability addition might help it, that is really not what is going to make or break Argho. What this really means is that it comes down to philosophy. Personally, I don't think we should be looking to mess around with our Pokemon competitively except for when it is needed. I don't think it is needed here, so I don't see any need for a non-flavor ability.

 

[snake]

While Arghonaut doesn't exactly need another useful ability, I'm still a little skeptical about these movepool changes. If we're trying the "check certain threats in the metagame" thing still, is Argho just going to boil down to "hi, i'm going to hit you with this random move on the switch!"? Is this want we want out of Arghonaut?

Maybe I've just gotten the wrong idea of what we want out of Argho, but this is what I've noticed so far.

 

[Okamu]

1.
I would be delighted to see Arghonaut get a second useful ability, but I do side with many other people here on the fact that it should be niche. Giving it another way to be used is great, but it shouldn't draw us far from the kind of already decided-on utility-based Argo. I understand the aforementioned arguments that Unaware is being undervalued, because it is a very powerful ability, but I'd like to point out that it isn't so much that Unaware itself isn't good, but rather Unaware on Arghonaut that makes it lackluster. A second, niche ability that allows for a miniscule shift towards a more utilitarian set could be a nice way to add just the slightest bit of viable variety to Argo.

2.
To keep with the idea of a defensive mon, I would support an ability that preserves health in some way. Long Reach was mentioned earlier, and represents an indirect method of achieving this. I think that Argo could also be nice with a small heal to make it more useful in a specific situation. I'm not talking about anything like Volt Absorb or Dry Skin here, but something like Rain Dish to provide just a tiny bit more of power for water moves and recovery on a rain team. Other than that, the ability is completely outshined by Unaware. It gives Argo a bit more viability in one specific situation while maintaining a more defensive-attacker/utility role. Really, an ability like that, or something similar in effect is the only kind of competitive ability I support, since I agree than Unaware should be respected as the original ability.

3.
Sure, why not. Really, the only thing I see a flavor ability doing is changing whether a competitive ability (if added) would be the Hidden Ability or not. I'm not against the idea, but I don't particularly see a reason for it either if we're adding a competitive ability. If we aren't adding a competitive ability, I think a flavor ability is mandated almost just to keep the Hidden Ability trend of the games.

 

[Deck Knight]

So the last few days I've been puzzling over what constitutes a Pokemon's Essence. What does that mean - does it mean what the Pokemon does now or what the Pokemon used to do, or what the Pokemon is meant to do?

Historically Arghonaut's Ability Unaware acted as a "perfect shield" if you will to allow it to Bulk Up or Recover off damage from stat-up sweepers. What has changed are what those sweepers are, and Arghonaut has a lot of trouble avoiding being wiped out by these new powerful Electric, Psychic, Flying, and Fairy sweepers. Otherwise, Arghonaut always played as a clutch Pokemon that could break a target's momentum (before Tomo became a thing) and force the opponent out. It even had a dedicated Roar set that could perform this task.

I am about to suggest two things in this context that I think might push the thread forward. A lot of discussion has been made about support moves, and one I did not mention that Arghonaut (with a suitable secondary ability) might be perfect for is Topsy-Turvy. Topsy Turvy really does not work that well with Unaware, but it could achieve a similar outcome against many of the boosting threats in the metagame. Where Topsy-Turvy DOES work well is opposing sweepers that are currently running away with the match with multiple boosts under their belt. If they can't OHKO Argho from neutral, Topsy-Turvy instantly reverses their progress and puts them deep in a hole, forcing them to switch out.

Now, for the ability I think best suits Arghonaut as a secondary option: Technician. While people traditionally gripe about Technician as a strong ability, that's only when the mon using it has several other factors going for them. Mega-Scizor and Breloom have 140 and 130 Base Attack backing up theirs, which is a very significant difference from Arghonaut's 110. Psychic Surge also has made the primary buffed moves of Technician (priority attacks) less viable. What Technician then acts for with Arghonaut is a "perfect sword" to help it pick off weakened foes and avoid becoming fodder at least for the other Tapus, if not Lele.

On the support side, Technician works amazingly well with Circle Throw, which has been discussed, and Storm Throw, which has not. Technician Storm Throw as a primary STAB for an offensive Arghonaut would be stronger than Close Combat without the defensive drawbacks. Finally, Technician boosts Rock Tomb, which has some applications as it puts Tornadus-Therian (AV Set) in KO range for Aqua Jet.

 

[Drapionswing]

Arghonaut doesn't /need/ another useful ability but it could use it.

I think this is the key. I'd argue that all of the points made early in this thread about how Arghonaut struggles and what it needs points clearly to needed changes in the movepool. While an ability addition might help it, that is really not what is going to make or break Argho. What this really means is that it comes down to philosophy. Personally, I don't think we should be looking to mess around with our Pokemon competitively except for when it is needed. I don't think it is needed here, so I don't see any need for a non-flavor ability.

While this is true, I find that a big part about CAP is allowing our pokemon to actually compete with gamefreaks in a competitive setting. This being said let's say Arghonaut gains no new competitive ability, it begins having to compete with other defensive pokemon such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini or Mollux (for example) which all have an ability that comes into play much more often than Unaware. This is the problem with unaware; it holds little revelance and doesn't come into play in this metagame anywhere near as much as abilities such as Misty Surge, Regenerator and Dry Skin which all help these rivals with longevity.

As well as this, arghonaut has no moves to actually support it's team meaning it has no effect on the game when it leaves the field. This is completely opposite to it's competition as the latter have things like Hazard Removal, Hazards, or a great ability combined with Key Resistances to allow their success in this metagame. Even in some cases the defensive pokemon that inhabit OU (some of which I'm about to mention don't compete with Arghonaut) such as Skarmory have Key Resistances but a good supporting movepool with an OK ability which is still useful in this metagame. Another example is ferrothorn with Key Resistances, Supporting movepool and decent ability.

Thus far the discussion has been scoped on Arghonauts abilities and if we decide to not give it a more useful ability that allows argho to play on it's typing and/or movepool more reliably then I don't think we can make up for it in the movepool stage. How many moves are we planning to add to actually get it to be in a reasonable competition range? This doesn't mean making Arghonaut A+ rank alongside Tapu Fini however, it does mean giving me a reason to use Arghonaut over Fini i.e allowing Arghonaut to compete.

Arghonaut doesn't need a top tier ability like Toxapex's regenerator, but something as simple as Natural Cure could go a long way on Arghonaut. Anything of this nature allows it to compete with pokemon of a similar function to some extent. This is due to it also having Unaware to use and giving it a choice of what it wants to do on your team, which instantly gives it a strong ground to stand on for competing with other defensive pokemon for a slot. A simple ability update coupled with movepool updates would really help Arghonaut.

I hope this post also clears up what type of moves we should focus on giving Arghonaut in later stages, in my opinion. Rather than "hi, i'm going to hit you with this random move on the switch!" lol.

 

[DarkSlay]

Okay guys, I gave this section a bit more time due to Deck's insightful questions, but I'm going to be closing discussion.

While I personally am not swayed by the notion that Arghonaut doesn't need/want a second competitive ability, there was enough feedback to, at the very least, conduct a poll. Arghonaut will be getting a new ability, and Arghonaut will be getting one new ability in total. Here are the choices:

Competitive Ability
No Competitive Ability

This section will be open for 48 hours to give everyone ample voting time. Thank you!

 

[david0895]

Competitive Ability

Unaware alone isn't enough to give it a relevance in this meta

 

[Mova]

Competitive Ability

Unaware just doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Competitive Ability

Unaware just doesn't help Arghonaut beat anything.

 

[Drapionswing]

Competitive Ability

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Competitive Ability
You have successfully swayed me.

 

[Felis Licht]

Competitive Ability

 

[jas61292]

No Competitive Ability

You can certainly say that it would help, but what Argho needs is moves, not a better ability. I do not think these updates are a place where we should be handing out buffs, except when they are needed. And an ability buff is simply not needed.

 

[KeeganSkymin4444]

Competitive Ability

 

[Alchemister]

Competitive Ability

No need to stay predictable to the point of obviousness.

 

[Okamu]

Competitive Ability

 

[Deck Knight]

Competitive Ability

 

[Snorlax in the way]

Competitive Ability