CAP Updates: Necturna Discussion (Complete)

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Deck Knight

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I genuinely dislike Leech Seed and Synthesis because by definition Necturna can use any boosting move, and these allow it options like a fast SubSeed set or recovery along with a QD or Coil set. Even though Synthesis is somewhat limited it is still a strong functionality.

Also I think HeaL confused Worry Seed for Leech Seed when he said the moves were tutors. In general I think we should avoid giving Necturna options we discussed and opted against (blacklisted rather than not included), since it can get those options via Sketch.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Also I think HeaL confused Worry Seed for Leech Seed when he said the moves were tutors.
Leech Seed was not brought up in this thread because it was a tutor move. I think people just brought it up as a grass move. I'm not saying that I agree with it personally, but a lot of people have supported it for whatever reason :/ If further discussion on it continues, I will reconsider banning it, as I already mentioned in my previous post.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
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Final Submission

- Thunder Fang
- Poison Fang
- Super Fang
- Leer
- Vine Whip
Evo: Horn Leech
6 Leech Seed
12 Night Shade

18 Shadow Sneak
24 Toxic Spikes
24 Will-O-Wisp
30 Hex
36 Pain Split
42 Shadow Ball
48 Power Whip
56 Phantom Force

To begin, I changed Horn Leech to an evo move to reflect the creators original intentions, and its original moveset. The move pattern, although already quite nice, was streamlined to a move every six levels with the exception of the first. Leech Seed and Night Shade were added to ease the tension on the beginning moves, and adds some weaker moves to the fray. Ominous Wind was moved to the Egg moves section because its flavor didn't really fit with the rest of the movepool. Finally, Phantom Force was added as a last move because of its power and distribution are usually quite late.

Giga Drain
Gravity
Pain Split

Seed Bomb
Snore
Spite

Super Fang
Worry Seed

Giga Drain, Gravity, Pain Split, and Super Fang are already present in its moveset, so adding them here would be flavorful. Seed Bomb is outclassed by its other Grass moves, and relates slightly to Necturine. Snore is required. Spite works well for Necturna's distrust of humanity, and a possible motivation to harm them. Worry Seed is pretty much useless, and fits with the Grass Motif.

Curse
Future Sight
Giga Drain
Grassy Terrain
Gravity
Ingrain
Leaf Blade
Leaf Storm
Natural Gift
Nightmare
Ominous Wind
Sketch

Ominous Wind was moved down here from level up, and Grassy Terrain maintains the Grass Motif.

TM04 Calm Mind
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM29 Psychic
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM41 Torment
TM42 Façade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM53 Energy Ball
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM65 Shadow Claw
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM77 Psych Up
TM85 Dream Eater
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM96 Nature Power
TM97 Dark Pulse
TM100 Confide


Leech Life continues the trend of energy sapping shown through other parts of its moveset, and is mostly outclassed by other options. Sleep Talk changed numbers. Nature Power is great flavor and synergizes well with Grassy Terrain. Dark Pulse is already present on its moveset and Confide is required.

Cut
Flash
Secret Power
Telekinesis

Cut is an old HM while Flash, Secret Power, and Telekinesis are old TMs.

Removed Infestation because Perish Song + trapping is a very bad idea. Also removed Destiny Bond because it can take down mons super easily.
 
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Final Submission

01- Thunder Fang
01- Poison Fang
01- Super Fang
01- Leer
01- Vine Whip
07- Ominous Wind
13- Shadow Sneak
19- Toxic Spikes
19- Will-O-Wisp
25- Hex
Ev- Horn Leech
40- Pain Split
45- Grassy Terrain
50- Shadow Ball
55- Phantom Force
60- Power Whip

Added Grassy Terrain at level 45 and Phantom Force at Level 55, Changed Horn Leech to be learned upon evolving, as this what usually happened to the Pokemon that learns a move at the same level it evolves. The rest is unaltered.

Curse
Giga Drain
Gravity
Future Sight
Ingrain
Leaf Blade
Leaf Storm
Natural Gift
Nightmare
Sketch

No new moves here, Necturna already learns a lot here, so I decided no change was necessary

TM 04 Calm Mind
TM 06 Toxic
TM 10 Hidden Power
TM 11 Sunny Day
TM 15 Hyper Beam
TM 17 Protect
TM 21 Frustration
TM 22 Solar Beam
TM 27 Return
TM 28 Leech Life
TM 29 Psychic
TM 30 Shadow Ball
TM 32 Double Team
TM 41 Torment
TM 42 Facade
TM 44 Rest
TM 45 Attract
TM 46 Thief
TM 48 Round
TM 53 Energy Ball
TM 61 Will-O-Wisp
TM 65 Shadow Claw
TM 66 Payback
TM 68 Giga Impact
TM 71 Stone Edge
TM 77 Psych Up
TM 85 Dream Eater
TM 86 Grass Knot
TM 87 Swagger
TM 88 Sleep Talk
TM 90 Substitute
TM 96 Nature Power
TM 97 Dark Pulse
TM 100 Confide

-Leech Life is completely outclassed by Horn Leech, and fits with Necturna.
-Nature Power is standard for a Grass-type.
-Dark Pulse is learned by most Ghost-types, and it will never be used over Shadow Ball.
-Confide is required.

Bug Bite
Dark Pulse
Foul Play
Gastro Acid

Giga Drain
Gravity
Pain Slit
Role Play
Seed Bomb
Skill Swap
Sleep Talk
Snore
Spite

Super Fang
Trick
Uproar
Worry Seed

Well, this is the important part, as Necturna would gain a total of 17 tutor moves, with 11 new moves (13 if you count Dark Pulse and Sleep Talk, which I already included as TMs). While this number is pretty big, it's not unprecedented as Trevenant learns 13, Gourgeist 11, Gengar 18 and Duknoir 14, and this counting ORAS tutors only, where some moves like Dark Pulse and Sleep Talk weren't available.

Bug Bite: Wile this might seems out of place at first, it's already learned by carnivore plants like Victreebel and Carnivine, so I made Necturna follow this trend.
Gastro Acid: Again, learned by Victreebel and Carnivine
Skill Swap, Role Play and Spite are common for Ghost-types
Worry Seed and Seed Bomb are standard for Grass-Types.
Trick: Probably the only new move in this submission that could see competitive use, but it's limited to Choice Band sets, that could use it to cripple an otherwise safe switch-in once in a match. I decided to add it as it's applications are limited, so I believe it still within what a consistency update should do and it's learned by almost all Ghost-types.

Flash
Secret Power
Telekinesis

Secret Power is required

Notable omissions:
Leech Seed: Not allowing Leech Seed was made as a conscious decision, and I believe we should respect that
Night Shade: Not all Ghost-Types learn this, so I don't see it as necessary.
Magic Coat: I would have included this one, but the Tutor list was already bloated enough, so I decided against it, as some Ghost-types, like Gengar, Banette and Dusknoir can't learn it.
 
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G-Luke

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WIP

0 Thunder Fang
0 Poison Fang
0 Super Fang
0 Leer
0 Vine Whip
Evo Move: Horn Leech
7 Night Shade
13 Leech Seed

19 Ominous Wind
25 Shadow Sneak
31 Toxic Spikes
31 Will-O-Wisp
37 Hex
43 Destiny Bond
49 Pain Split
55 Shadow Ball
61 Power Whip
67 Phantom Force

TM 04 Calm Mind
TM 06 Toxic
TM 10 Hidden Power
TM 11 Sunny Day
TM 15 Hyper Beam
TM 17 Protect
TM 21 Frustration
TM 22 Solar Beam
TM 27 Return
TM 28 Leech Life
TM 29 Psychic
TM 30 Shadow Ball
TM 32 Double Team
TM 41 Torment
TM 42 Facade
TM 44 Rest
TM 45 Attract
TM 46 Thief
TM 48 Round
TM 53 Energy Ball
TM 61 Will-O-Wisp
TM 65 Shadow Claw
TM 66 Payback
TM 68 Giga Impact
TM 71 Stone Edge
TM 77 Psych Up
TM 85 Dream Eater
TM 86 Grass Knot
TM 87 Swagger
TM 88 Sleep Talk
TM 90 Substitute
TM 96 Nature Power
TM 97 Dark Pulse
TM 100 Confide

Curse
Giga Drain
Grassy Terrain
Gravity
Future Sight
Ingrain
Leaf Blade
Natural Gift
Nightmare
Sketch
 
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snake

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CAP Co-Leader
Final Submission

- Thunder Fang
- Poison Fang
- Super Fang
- Leer
- Vine Whip
Evolve: Horn Leech
6 Shadow Sneak
12 Leech Seed
17 Magical Leaf
23 Toxic Spikes
23 Will-O-Wisp
28 Hex
34 Grassy Terrain
39 Night Shade
45 Pain Split
50 Shadow Ball
56 Power Whip
61 Phantom Force

Necturna's Level Up pool is very small, and I wanted to preserve this as much as possible while also adding new moves. The Level Up movepool now follows a 5-6 pattern. This change is necessary to avoid the having a move at Level 31 or having a weird gap in the movepool because few Pokemon have an evolve move at the same level it evolves. Horn Leech is the evolve move, as Necturine evolves at Level 31 and doesn't learn Horn Leech; it's clear what the Prevo process wanted. Perhaps it's not the move flavorful move, but it's much more feasible for Necturna to use Horn Leech than Necturine, so I like it there. Maybe those spines on Necturna act as horns. All I intend from this is to uphold the prevo process's decision, which I agree with this time.

Nect's movepool has a lot of Ghost-type moves so I tried to spread them out as evenly as I could. Leer and Vine Whip remain Necturna's Level 1 moves. Shadow Sneak is a weaker move that should be learned first. Leech Seed is controversial, but I like its fit on Necturna. Magical Leaf is an intermediate Grass-type STAB move that appears on both Grass-types and a Ghost-type (Mismagius, which reminds me of Necturna). As a primary Grass-type, Necturna currently has very few Grass-type moves. Will-O-Wisp, Toxic Spikes, and Hex are all learned together because I see the gimmick!! see what DK was going for. I added Grassy Terrain at Level 34 mostly to space out Ghost-type moves, but it fits nicely there. Night Shade got displaced way up to Level 39. I'd rather it be in Egg Moves but the Egg Groups just don't work out. Pain Split, Shadow Ball, and Power Whip are the string of 10 level gap moves in Nect's current movepool, but I added Phantom Force as Necturna's capstone move. Thunder Fang, Poison Fang, and Super Fang remain Level 1 Heart Scale moves. Ominous Wind was moved to Egg Moves because really, there are too many Ghost-types in the Level Up pool imo.
Curse
Gravity
Giga Drain
Future Sight
Ingrain
Leaf Blade
Leaf Storm
Natural Gift
Nightmare
Ominous Wind (Ninetales, Farfetch'd, Shiftry, Tropius)
Sketch

Ominous Wind got displaced to here from Level Up.
Giga Drain
Gravity
Pain Split

Seed Bomb
Snore
Spite

Super Fang
Worry Seed

Giga Drain was duplicated here from Egg Moves; Pain Split and Super Fang from Level Up. Spite and Worry Seed are generally useless but fit Necturna's design. Seed Bomb is outclassed by Leaf Blade.
TM04 Calm Mind
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM29 Psychic
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM41 Torment
TM42 Façade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM53 Energy Ball
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM65 Shadow Claw
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM77 Psych Up
TM85 Dream Eater
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM96 Nature Power
TM97 Dark Pulse
TM100 Confide


Leech Life and Nature Power have great flavor. Sleep Talk and Confide are universal. If you run Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball you just need to go away.

Infestation is not added due to its interaction with Perish Song.
Cut (Gen 5 / Gen 6 HM01)
Secret Power (ORAS TM94)
Telekinesis (Gen 5 TM19)
Flash (Gen 5 / Gen 6 TM 70)
Cut is a transferrable HM, and Telekinesis, Secret Power, and Flash are old TMs.
 
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HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Consider this your 18ish hour warning, looking good to see so many quality WIPs!

I also think I'm going to ban Infestation (and similar trapping moves), as a number of people have pointed out problems with its interaction with Perish Song. Tagging mxmts and G-Luke so that they have time to remove Infestation. Also tagging LucarioOfLegends and snake_rattler so that everyone can finish up their submissions and make final posts.
 
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