CAP Updates: Voodoom Discussion (Complete)

[LucarioOfLegends]

I'd just like to mention that I really Heal's comment from the preliminary discussion. We technically don't have to find a competitive ability and a flavor ability, as Volt Absorb can fall into one of these slots. I'm personally interested in david's suggestion of Scrappy. It isn't too crazy powerful, but also allows Voodoom to beat certain Pokemon. And if it is overshadowed by the other abilities, it can fit pretty well as flavor.

 

[reachzero]

I have two suggestions, both with situational applications. The more powerful of the two is Mold Breaker, which would solidify Voodoom's stallbreaking ability by totally changing its matchups with Unaware Clefable and Pyukumuku. Timid +2 Lightning Rod Voodoom does 45.4 - 53.5% to defensive Unaware Clefable with Shattered Psyche, where Mold Breaker lets Voodoom 90.6 - 106.5%, a 43.8% chance to OHKO. Similarly, +2 Mold Breaker Voodoom does 83.4 - 98.7% to defensive Pyumuku with Focus Blast, while Lightning Rod does 42 - 49.6%. It would also secure the OHKO on Arghonaut, which is not possible even on the defensive set without Mold Breaker.

My other suggestion is Competitive. Competitive is situational because you don't precisely get to choose when to activate it--the most "reliable" ways are by switching into a predicted Defog (Kitsunoh is a good target for that, but the far more common Tapu Fini will "only" take 68.5 - 80.7% from +2 Shattered Psyche, so keep that in mind), or double-switching into Landorus-T, Gyarados or (rarely) Salamence. +2 Shattered Psyche OHKOs all of these, so the risk is probably worth it. You could also switch into Shadow Strike, so Voodoom would be a rather significant deterrent to Kitsunoh.

Scrappy is pretty much useless, because it doesn't allow Voodoom to do *anything* it can't already do, considering that it has Dark STAB and Mega Sableye can't really do anything back to Voodoom anyway.

 

[david0895]

I have two suggestions, both with situational applications. The more powerful of the two is Mold Breaker, which would solidify Voodoom's stallbreaking ability by totally changing its matchups with Unaware Clefable and Pyukumuku. Timid +2 Lightning Rod Voodoom does 45.4 - 53.5% to defensive Unaware Clefable with Shattered Psyche, where Mold Breaker lets Voodoom 90.6 - 106.5%, a 43.8% chance to OHKO. Similarly, +2 Mold Breaker Voodoom does 83.4 - 98.7% to defensive Pyumuku with Focus Blast, while Lightning Rod does 42 - 49.6%. It would also secure the OHKO on Arghonaut, which is not possible even on the defensive set without Mold Breaker.

My other suggestion is Competitive. Competitive is situational because you don't precisely get to choose when to activate it--the most "reliable" ways are by switching into a predicted Defog (Kitsunoh is a good target for that, but the far more common Tapu Fini will "only" take 68.5 - 80.7% from +2 Shattered Psyche, so keep that in mind), or double-switching into Landorus-T, Gyarados or (rarely) Salamence. +2 Shattered Psyche OHKOs all of these, so the risk is probably worth it. You could also switch into Shadow Strike, so Voodoom would be a rather significant deterrent to Kitsunoh.

Scrappy is pretty much useless, because it doesn't allow Voodoom to do *anything* it can't already do, considering that it has Dark STAB and Mega Sableye can't really do anything back to Voodoom anyway.

I like both ideas, but I think that are superior to Lightning Rod.
Also, with all the Landorus-T in the tier, Competitive is pratically a guaranteed boost that could substitute Nasty Plot

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I'm also against Mold Breaker, as Clefable and other Unaware Mons should remain a threat to Voodoom. We don't really want to make Voodoom overpowered, and I can tell that it's starting to lean in that direction a bit too much with Mold Breaker. We want to make Voodoom good enough, but not too good.

 

[dwarfstar]

The goal of this discussion is to understand if we can give another ability in the place of Volt Absorb, since it's outclassed by Lightning Rod.
That's why I suggested an ability that help against a single pokemon.
About Technician, you may have right since it can give a boosted coverage against fairies and dragons (hp ice)

It was never specified that this was supposed to be in place of Volt Absorb, which has been a normal ability, and snake_rattler's post says this is supposed to be a hidden ability.

Anyway, so this post isn't just nitpicking, I think Scrappy is situational enough to work well if we're not going for a pure flavor route. Competitive is more useful than Scrappy on account of its utility for counterplay against Defog on spikestacking teams, but probably still within the acceptable realm of situationality, and it seems fun from a flavor perspective as well. I want to weigh in against Mold Breaker to keep Clefable and Arghonaut as legitimate threats to Voodoom, though. I'll come back with more potential suggestions later, got a paper to finish

 

[reachzero]

How is Scrappy ever useful on Voodoom in any way?

Edit: Voodoom destroys Mega Sableye with +2 Dark Pulse, and Sableye does hardly anything back. Scrappy changes nothing.

 

[snake]

Alright I'm back home, so I'm going to comment on these abilities.

Sturdy - I don't think it'd be terribly broken, but I'd like to see more discussion on it before I say I'll allow it.

Scrappy - I don't see the utility in hitting Sableye super effectively, particularly when Voodoom uses Mega Sableye as set up bait (complete set up bait if you run a Z Crystal).

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 208-247 (68.4 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Technician - Absolutely not. While it does boost Vacuum Wave, that's not the problem. Before we started talking about abilities and on the PS! CAP chatroom, we've debated whether we want to add any of Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, or Sludge Bomb on Voodoom. Technician effectively gives Voodoom all three of these through Hidden Power Electric, Steel, or Poison. Technician will not be going on Voodoom.

Mold Breaker - Most notably this ability cracks open Unaware Clefable and Arghonaut. I'd like to see more discussion on this ability.

Competitive - It's a conditional ability, but it is pretty strong. It makes Landorus-T an even worse switch-in, though offensive sets already get 2HKOed by Life Orb Dark Pulse.

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 175-208 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This means that Voodoom can just use Dark Pulse twice, once on the switch in and again on the next turn, OR it can set up Nasty Plot and OHKO, which means that Landorus-T really isn't that great of a switch-in to begin with. Defensive and Scarf sets still exist, so I'll just say that I won't say no to this ability yet, but I'm wary of it.


I will add Technician to the banlist, and I really don't want to see any more discussion on Scrappy unless it has some sort of utility outside of hitting Mega Sableye. Please continue discussing these abilities in particular (or you can propose a new ability):
Sturdy
Mold Breaker
Competitive

Of course, No Competitive Ability is always an option.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

I support No Competitive Ability. It seems to me like the previously suggested abilities have only been proposed and supported because of the allure of new ideas, but Voodoom is 100% fine with the competitive abilities it has. A flavor ability makes much more sense.

 

[jas61292]

I'm going to second what boxofkangaroos just said. At this point, if we are not doing a direct boosting ability, than a new ability has no point. There is little we could give that would be worth using over Lightning Rod without being too good, and I really see no reason for us to even try to find something. And extra immunity to come in and set up on, as well as the potential for extra boosts is great, and looking for something else is, in my opinion, trying to add things just for the sake of adding things, which I think goes against the update philosophy.

 

[david0895]

- Sturdy: with rocks on your side, this ability is useless
- Mold Breaker: using a +2 Flash Cannon on Clefable or +2 Focus Blast/Psychic on Arghonaut is a good idea. But out of this I can't see other uses
- Competitive: I checked all the Intimidate user, all of these (Landorus-T, Salamence and Gyarados) can only check Voodoom and only if scarfed. Also there are defoggers, but I think that this redounds with Nasty Plot.

For this motivation I support Mold Breaker, as a second choice I'm for No Competitive Ability.

 

[snake]

- Sturdy: with rocks on your side, this ability is useless
- Mold Breaker: using a +2 Flash Cannon on Clefable or +2 Focus Blast/Psychic on Arghonaut is a good idea. But out of this I can't see other uses
- Competitive: I checked all the Intimidate user, all of these (Landorus-T, Salamence and Gyarados) can only check Voodoom and only if scarfed. Also there are defoggers, but I think that this redounds with Nasty Plot.

For this motivation I support Mold Breaker, as a second choice I'm for No Competitive Ability.

I'm interested in your opinion, so I'd like for you to elaborate more please.

Sturdy: We know this because this applies to every mon with Sturdy. How does it apply to Voodoom? Why would it be good or bad?
Mold Breaker: Rather than reiterating that it hits two potential checks/counters, tell me why Mold Breaker is good, not just that it's good.
Competitive: Salamence always runs Moxie, and Gyarados runs Moxie pretty commonly as well, and almost they never run Choice Scarf. This is more of a just so you know thing; I'm more interested in what you have to say for the first two points.

 

[david0895]

I'm interested in your opinion, so I'd like for you to elaborate more please.

Sturdy: We know this because this applies to every mon with Sturdy. How does it apply to Voodoom? Why would it be good or bad?
Mold Breaker: Rather than reiterating that it hits two potential checks/counters, tell me why Mold Breaker is good, not just that it's good.
Competitive: Salamence always runs Moxie, and Gyarados runs Moxie pretty commonly as well, and almost they never run Choice Scarf. This is more of a just so you know thing; I'm more interested in what you have to say for the first two points.

One of the good things of Voodoom, is its typing, beacuse it allow him to don't care about rocks. Sturdy does the opposite: force you to care about them.

Rather than Unaware, Mold Breaker allows you to bypass Mimikyu's Disguise (avoiding to be checked) and Dragonite's Multiscale (this gives at Voodoom about a 45% chance to OHKO it at +2 with Life Orb or at +0 with Darkinium Z)

 

[Project_Mars]

Part of me wants to see Voodoom get another competitive ability to potentially keep the opponent guessing on if they can zap it with Thunderbolt or not, but I also can't think of what I would wanna see, nor can I really think of any other suggestions. (Filter is about it, but it would only help it vs Flying and Fighting since I doubt it would make Fairy-type attacks survivable, so it seems kinda like a waste.)

That said, Mold Breaker does seem like a neat idea since it would be fairly unique as a Set-Up Sweeper that gets to keep its Bonuses when facing opposing Unaware Pokemon. Additionally, it would be the only non-mega Special Attack biased Pokemon with the ability. This would give Voodoom a way to set it apart from other set-up sweepers, and could potentially help out depending on what we plan to give it in the movepool stage.

 

[Deck Knight]

I am bemused no one has yet mentioned Motor Drive, which is a Lightning Rod that boosts Speed imstead, allowing Voodoom to win speed ties and outrun the unboosted metagame with a single boost. It's drawback is that Voodoom isn't immediately more threatening on a damage output basis, but does let you try for Dark Pulse flinch on more targets.

Soundproof allows Voodoom to use Perish Song without being susceptible to it, and improves its matchup with Aurumoth by making it immune to both Bug Buzz and Psyshock, plus Sylveon and eventually Mega Garde / Mega Altaria Hyper Voice.

These seem niche but I think a little bit of forward thinking would be a good idea.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I think now that Nasty Plot has been confirmed, Motor Drive is simply too distracting as it gives Voodoom the potential to lose many of its main checks from the Nasty Plot set. I really don't think Motor Drive would be activated all that much or reliably, but giving Voodoom the tools to reach both +1 speed and +2 sp atk after a single turn is really distracting in my opinion.

Personally I don't think a new ability is needed. Insert what box and jas said here.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

On the same boat as the three men who said it before, but gunning for no competitive change here. At this point, I feel like we are overloading Voodoom a bit too much if we also plan to give it competent coverage. That would be giving it a new boosting move, a new competitive ability, new coverage, and flavor. That just seems a bit overboard imo. We have to learn when giving is necessary, yes, but giving in moderation is something we have to keep in mind. I know we all want Voodoom to be super strong and OP, but is that really healthy?

 

[G-Luke]

I gotta agree, only a flavour ability or an extremely niche one is needed as Nasty Plot + good coverage is probably all this needed to jump back in viability. I also have to mention Voodoom might become one of the best Z-Move abusers amoungst CAPmons.

 

[Cresselia92]

If we had to give it a niche Ability, what about Limber? It is generally inferior to Volt Absorb and Lightning Rod, but it still grants Voodoom the ability to nullify random Thunder Waves, while helping it preserve its relatively good Speed (rather than boosting it like Motor Drive would do).

Otherwise, considering that Voodoom is essentially a voodoo doll, it would make sense for it to have Cursed Body as its flavor Ability.

 

[Alchemister]

I agree that Cursed Body is an extremely niche option, borderline useful but rarely ever a good pick over Lightning Rod (which is the point we IMO want to hit with an Ability for 'Doom), and makes great sense flavor-wise. Therefore, I second this idea.

 

[Reviloja753]

So I have read the arguments, and I want to give my two cents. Just know that this post is mostly for fun and stuff, but I'm trying to help. (I'm honestly scared I'm going to be blasted for not calcing, but I'm just trying to be helpful, so please don't hurt me)

Mold Breaker is cool, as it gives it a chance against UnawareMons, Mimikyu, and Dragonite- All of which are threatening to Vodoom.

CALCS:
+2 Timid Special Attacker Voodoom OHKOs Unaware Wall Clefable with Shattered Psyche (Psychic) while in Psychic Terrain

+2 Timid Special Attacker Voodoom has an 87.5% chance to OHKO Swords Dance Cleaner Mimikyu with Dark Pulse after Stealth Rocks


Cursed Body has a niche, but works as flavor. I'd even like to see it replace Volt Absorb.


Soundproof might have an interesting niche, letting it freely Perish Song and destroy Sylveon (my favorite Pokémon, by the way) that are running PixilVoice.

 

[snake]

So I have read the arguments, and I want to give my two cents. Just know that this post is mostly for fun and stuff, but I'm trying to help. (I'm honestly scared I'm going to be blasted for not calcing, but I'm just trying to be helpful, so please don't hurt me)

Mold Breaker is cool, as it gives it a chance against UnawareMons, Mimikyu (if given Flash Cannon), and Dragonite (if it gets Thunderbolt. I don't know if it will. Same with Flash Cannon)- All of which are threatening to Vodoom.

Cursed Body has a niche, but works as flavor. I'd even like to see it replace Volt Absorb.

Competitive is interesting as it gives an interesting way for Vodoom to set up, and brings about mind games trying to predict. Say Vodoom enters the field. It could either be Lightning Rod or Competitive. You have to switch out. You could switch into Lando-T, but intimidate sets Competitive off. Or you could switch into Plasmanta, but what if it's Lightning Rod?! Decisions decisions!

Soundproof might have an interesting niche, letting it freely Perish Song and destroy Sylveon (my favorite Pokémon, by the way) that are running PixilVoice.

All in all, here are two options that are what I would want to see from Vodoom.

1. Gaining Sludge Bomb (This is so it doesn't hard counter Fairies, and steel types don't have to worry about it rather than Flash Cannon) and Thunderbolt
2. The following Ability Chart:

Cursed Body/Lightning Rod
Hidden Ability: Mold breaker OR Competitive OR Soundproof

3. If it doesn't get Competitive, then give it access to Nasty Plot.

First off,

Nasty Plot wins the poll! This means that Voodoom will be receiving Nasty Plot and not an ability akin to Sheer Force, Mega Launcher, etc.

That said, I'd like to finish up Ability discussion before we get into coverage. I don't want this to last more than 24 to 48 hours, but if discussion is still rolling, I'll extend the deadline. If Voodoom needs another ability, this is the time to say so. However, I'm going to discourage discussion on the following abilities:

Sheer Force
Magic Guard
Mega Launcher
Flare Boost
Adaptability
Technician
Other Abilities that give a direct, easily exploitable boost to Voodoom's offenses
Other Generically Good Abilities

What this means is that generally any ability discussed here needs to be a conditional ability (similar to Lightning Rod), where Voodoom doesn't have complete control over it. Make sure you back up your posts with calcs and other evidence. Of course, no competitive option is a choice, and we can give Voodoom a flavor Hidden Ability.

Let's keep it up everyone!

Second, I don't want to discuss coverage moves quite yet. We're going to finish off abilities, and then head off into coverage move discussion. When we do get to coverage moves, I'm going to require moveset submissions and calcs as supporting evidence. We have a similar type of discussion in a normal CAP Process, so you can look in the archive for such a discussion. I'll make sure everyone is on the same page about how I want discussion to happen when we get there.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but we need to go one step at a time.

 

[Reviloja753]

First off,


Second, I don't want to discuss coverage moves quite yet. We're going to finish off abilities, and then head off into coverage move discussion. When we do get to coverage moves, I'm going to require moveset submissions and calcs as supporting evidence. We have a similar type of discussion in a normal CAP Process, so you can look in the archive for such a discussion. I'll make sure everyone is on the same page about how I want discussion to happen when we get there.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but we need to go one step at a time.

Okay! Sorry about that. I'm new here, so I wasn't aware. However, I stand by the abilities I suggested. If you want to go for a flavor route, Cursed Body is the way to go. For useful abilities, Mold Breaker or Soundproof. Seeing how it gets
Nasty Plot, no Competitive. For calculations, give me a moment. I'm going to see what a Mold Breaker +2 Timid Dark Pulse does to your typical Mimikyu.

 

[NumberCruncher]

On the same boat as the three men who said it before, but gunning for no competitive change here. At this point, I feel like we are overloading Voodoom a bit too much if we also plan to give it competent coverage. That would be giving it a new boosting move, a new competitive ability, new coverage, and flavor. That just seems a bit overboard imo. We have to learn when giving is necessary, yes, but giving in moderation is something we have to keep in mind. I know we all want Voodoom to be super strong and OP, but is that really healthy?

Well, at this point, it looks like even with Sludge Wave, it's going to be completely outclassed by Azelf as a Nasty Plot user, so I'd say yes.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Yes, because having the bulk to properly set up and having two great stabs and already decent coverage = completely outclassed.

 

[G-Luke]

Soundproof is a really good option tbh. Its niche, and is virtually useless in the current metagame.