CAP Viability Ranking Thread (B Rank Filtering)

[KhosroTheGreat]

CV Test Post
So I was using Mega Sharpedo, which I feel definitely deserves it's current B rank.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the CAP metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Mega Sharpedo is definitely great, allowing you to perform late-game sweeps at times with relative ease, acting as a great cleaner. On the other hand, it really doesn't like switching into anything, and is very much a single-use bomb, due to its reliance on speed boosts before it megavolves, which it obviously can't do. These are its "more notable flaws". Waterfall and Crunch are great STABs, however, allowing it to a load of things really hard with the Strong Jaw boost for Crunch. Ice Fang provides great coverage and is boosted to acceptable levels by Strong Jaw. However, Ice Fang can only 2KO 2 of the biggest Physical Walls in CAP, Tomo and Cyclohm, whereas Cyclohm can OHKO with STAB Discharge and Tomo can beat it through Reflect and Roost. cbrevan and I quite like Destiny Bond, which allows it to kamikaze 1 more mon before it dies. Along with it's great speed, Destiny Bond can provide an unlikely tool that can take out Walls, such as Cyclohm and put (even more) holes in the opponent's team. This links quite nicely to Sharpedo's biggest problem: It can only sweep when it's checks/counters are gone. If that pesky Tomo or Cyclohm doesn't die early enough, Sharpedo doesn't really want to sweep until it does, at which point it can become useless, especially if for example Tomo or Cyclohm are the last mons to die. Wall Trapper Gothitelle is quite useful in removing these and allowing it to sweep. This is "more team support". Therefore, it practically fits the B rank definition perfectly, since its "positive traits still outshine [its] negatives".

 

[cbrevan]

CV Test Post
Bump Mega Scizor to A imo
Mega Scizor has been getting a lot of use lately, largely for its amazing ability to check fairies, provide utility, and still have an incredible offensive presence. Is this thing fantastic? Absolutely. It can run a variety of sets and moves that lets it perform an incredible amounts of roles on a team. It has a great defensive typing in Bug/Steel that allows it to counter all fairy types lacking Flamethrower/Fire Blast/HP Fire, and check any that happens to switch into. It can be a Defogger, Sweeper, Cleaner, Revenge Killer, Fairy Check, Volt-Turner,and Pursuit Trapper; it can basically do whatever you want it too. Its checks and counters even vary with the set it is or what coverage move it's running. If it has U-Turn, it can easily lure in a potential check and gain a huge amount of momentum. If its running a Sword Dance set, a lot of mons become unable to check it after a Swords Dance. For example, it can ohko stuff like Mega Lopunny and Colossoil with Bullet Punch after a boost. Depending on what coverage moves it runs, it checks also change.For example, Cyclohm can handle Knock Off but can't switch into Bug Bite, and Kitsunoh can handle a Bug Bite but can't tank a Knock Off. Basically, it can do a large number of roles on a large number of teams, and needs only enough team support to handle fire types and its other few checks and counters to do its job well. Its also the best counter to fairy types in the tier, and that alone is reason enough to use it on any team.


Also wondering, how are we ranking Megas exactly. Should we take into account the usefulness of the Mega before mega evo, such as Sableye or Slowbro, or do we consider solely the mega form? Are we planning on tiering any of the regular forms in addition to the mega, like we did with Mega Latias? Arguably, some of the megas pre evo are trash, such as Lopunny and Beedrill, but some are viable mons in their own right. Stuff like Sableye, Slowbro, and Scizor can also use sets that do different things than their megas, such as Scizor and Sableye. Scizor has a fantastic Choice Band set and Sableye has prankster status and recovery, all things that set them apart from their Megas.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

It's time to remove Greninja, it's banned now

jas-edit: done

 

[sparktrain]

Quick thought-- Pyroak should move up from C+ to one of the B ranks. It's undeniably a great switch-in to specially-oriented fairies, specifically Specs Sylveon, and can punish switches with Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, or simply heal off damage with Synthesis. Colossoil switch-ins likely get worn down by Lava Plume/Giga Drain if it switches in trying to take advantage of Rebound/Guts. In fact, between WoW, Leech Seed, and its attacking options, it's an annoying mon to switch into in general, and its longevity is superb. Yeah, it lacks true offensive potential/speed, but its unique typing, bulk, reliable recovery, lack of 4x weaknesses, and Leech Seed easily sets it apart from other bulky Fire-types (mollux, heatran, zard x to an extent), giving it very usable niche on bulky teams.

If anything, it should move up because it's about 1000x more usable than Malamar

 

[MQJinx]

Malamar for E Rank

Malamar just isn't effective in the current CAP meta. It is overreliant on Superpower to even do any damage to the bulky CAP meta, not to mention that it is massive U-turn bait, which is a very common move due to all the Colossoil, Talonflame, mixed Syclant, Kitsunoh, Beedrill, and Scizor running rampant. It is also helpless against the new fairies introduced (and most of them are specially offensive, and Malamar has nothing to boost its Special Defense). It's also slower than Beedrill, which gives it a free U-turn. Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon are still very good in the CAP meta which isn't helping out Malamar either. Its signature move Topsy-Turvy requires massive prediction to use, and once the opponent sees it, it will hold off on boosting until Malamar is removed. It can't even use its Dark STAB on Necturna or an expected Aurumoth because it would likely get burned (which all bulky Necturna sets run, and offensive Necturna shouldn't stay in on Malamar unless it can nab a KO) or risk having Skarmory, Tomohawk, or Cyclohm switch in for free. Clefable still walls it if it's Unaware (which is a viable set), Skarm can just phaze out Malamar to erase its boosts, and not to metion HazeHawk is still viable...

 

[Tadasuke]

So we still don't have Plasmanta ranked. I need opinions on it.

 

[Amitghosh]

I'd say put Plasmanta in B- rank. It's certainly not too bad, it can even nab one or two important KOs for the team. It does definitely have a few huge weaknesses, for example the one against Colossoil. But after some team support it can certainly become a strong threat, and although it's not as good as the other CAPs, it is definitely viable.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Pyroak C+ --> B-

I'm honestly suprised that I am saying this, but it needs to happen. Pyroak is by no means a top tier mon and should never be considered one, but I feel like that lately it's proven that it's not really in the same pool of the shitty capmons that are Voodoom, Fidgit, Malaconda, and it. It's a rather good answer to the fairy types that haunt the tier, and it's pretty damn bulky as well, being able to somehow survive a hit from Mega Beedrill. Obviously, most if not all of Pyroak's flaws still exist, but it just doesn't deserve C+ anymore

 

[JigglykongisFUM16]

Manaphy for B rank.
Now some of you all might be thinking whoa there, hold your horses. An unranked Mon that has been around a while suddenly becoming B? Well, I think Manaphy has been overlooked for quite a while. First of all, it has access to two awesome moves, tail glow and calm mind. Tail glow manaphy can blow holes through teams. With access to moves like scald, surf, psychic, ice beam, and energy ball; Manaphy makes a lot of common capmons cry. At 2.5x, manaphy kills AV Colo, strata, caw, and clant in one shot with surf. After one layer of spikes or a stealth rock, 2.5x boosted psychic kills most mollux varients in one shot. Ice beam and psychic also one shot tomo, while psychic kills revenankh. In the rain, manaphy can even set up on A chansey, and not many special attackers can do that. Manaphy's biggest issue is probably what EV spread to run. If a manaphy runs no bulk, it can be killed by faster Mons like thundurus in one shot. However, if a manaphy has too much bulk, more things out speed it and can cause it issues. (I had more stuff, but I forgot where I wrote it down, lol :P )

 

[cbrevan]

Sableye for B+
Since our rankings are weird in that both the Megas and the base form are ranked as the same mon, I'm nominating Sableye (and therefore Mega Sableye) for B+. We all know its a solid mon, and it has good bulk, a great movepool, Magic Bounce, and three immunities to work off of. It's a hard mon for stall to work around, especially against Metal Burst sets that can eliminate a large number of wallbreakers, while wearing down there walls with Taunt. It can even run a threatening Calm Mind set, which just needs some specific threats removed before it can start a sweep. Magic Bounce is also a great ability for bouncing back stuff like Taunt or Toxic from Tomohawk or hazards like Sticky Web and Stealth Rock, and access to Prankster Taunt before and on the turn of Mega Evolution helps it in this respect. Unfortunately, it isn't as viable in CAP as it is in OU simply because most teams have a concrete answer for it. Fairies are the most dominant type in the meta at the moment, and being wrecked by virtually all of them really hurts its viability. It also has to compete for a Mega slot, which is unfortunate when you take into consideration Megas like Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, and Mega Scizor. All in all, its a solid mon, but just not A material because a significant part of the meta gives it trouble.


I'm also gonna second Manaphy for B, its a phenomenal Wall/Stall breaker and can easily run through weakened teams. If stall was a more dominant of a playstyle I would even advocate for B+, as it can break stall over its knee with +3 Scalds under Rain. Its a solid mon and its unfortunate it doesn't see much usage in CAP.

Also, Pyroak should be at least B imo. Its incredibly bulky, has reliable recovery in Leech Seed and Synthesis, and has a typing that allows it to wall most Fairies. It does have a bunch of flaws though, such as a suscepbility to Stealth Rock and crippling weakness to Taunt and Tomohawk. Despite that, its a solid mon that can add bulk to any number of teams, and helps alleviate that horrifying Fairy problem most CAP teams have. Also, its a lot more viable then everything in B-, and half the stuff in B.

 

[JigglykongisFUM16]

cbrevan, that isnt true. If you look at the list, you can see a few mons and their megas ranked differently(EX: Latias, Latios)
But I agree with your reasoning for saying that Sab should be B+

Pyroak I think should be B as well. If you don't carry flyspam nor a strategem/mollux, this thing will wreck your team. Helps against dem fairies and is seeing a lot more usage as of late

 

[cbrevan]

I actually talked with Jas and I think it was Tada and HeaL about this a while ago. Basic reasoning was that Megas are just an additional moveset, and since mons a ranked by there best moveset, there was no reason to seperate Megas from the base form. If you look at the list, you'll see that no two Mega and their respective base form are listed save the Latis, which were added with all the new Megas from ORAS.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I actually talked with Jas and I think it was Tada and HeaL about this a while ago. Basic reasoning was that Megas are just an additional moveset, and since mons a ranked by there best moveset, there was no reason to seperate Megas from the base form. If you look at the list, you'll see that no two Mega and their respective base form are listed save the Latis, which were added with all the new Megas from ORAS.

Jas and I both are under the Megas-are-a-moveset mentality, whereas Tada and all of the other viability ranking threads seem to think separating bases from megas is a good thing. Currently we have a weird division in policy; most viability rankings separate megas from base, whereas analyses and even most tiers seem to group them together.

It's an interesting debacle, but at least in CAP, most things with a mega either 1) only use the mega or 2) are about as viable with or without the mega (Gyarados, Ttar, etc). The only real exception to the rule might be Sableye, but really it doesn't even seem worth it to me.

___________

I now support Pyroak for B for the reasons listed above.

I support Manaphy for B, though I'd honestly rather see it as B-. So many things are faster than it, which gives them 2 turns to try to KO it before things get nasty (1 turn while it sets up, 1 turn just before it's about to attack). Of course, Tail Glow is a positively great move and Manaphy shouldn't be underestimated either.

Plasmanta for B-. It's not awful, but we all know it's not the best. Respectable offense, decent speed, but dies to focus sash Diglett. Helps against the fairies, at least.

 

[Amitghosh]

Cawmodore for A-

with the new oras megas dominating cap right now, and the fairies running about and dominating too, Cawmodore has recently seen a lot more viability and usage. it can check many Pokemon that are good in CAP right now, and while it still fails to Cyclohm and Zapdos, it's definitely a lot better than B+ by now. so I suggest Cawmodore to be raised to A-

 

[Tadasuke]

Just a quick update:

I know the list has been inactive for the past couple of weeks. This has been almost entirely my fault, but now with more free time, I'll be able to make a comprehensive update. A lot of the most active members in the metagame have been helping me with their suggestions. Expect an update by or before Tuesday.

 

[Tadasuke]

LIST FULLY UPDATED

Everyone is allowed to converse on all of the changes and comment or suggest thusly. Everything was talked over here.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Now actually looking at the updated list like this, I feel like we need to sift through the b rank a lot. There are way too many pokemon in this category

 

[MQJinx]

Since there are still plenty of mons that do not have an initial rank due to lack of testing, I think we should create an Untested Rank for all of the mons that could have potential in the CAP meta but their uses have not been discovered.

and add these in the untested rank for now until there is plenty of experience using them

Hide

On an actual nomination:

-> A-
With the advance of fairies, Mega Scizor serves as an excellent fairy check in CAP. Pretty much every single fairy is forced to run fire coverage if they don't want to get stomped by this thing due to Mega Scizor's high attack and decent bulk, as well as versatility with its move choices in U-turn for momentum, Pursuit to trap Psychics and Ghosts, Knock Off, Defog, Roost, Swords Dance, priority in Bullet Punch boosted by STAB and Technician. It can even run Aerial Ace to throw Tomohawk and Pyroak off guard.

-> B
same reasons as above except remove SD, Roost, and Defog, it serves as a usable options against fairies with the CB set and it can run Acrobatics to do even more damage in case its band gets knocked off.

 

[sparktrain]

A big thank you to everyone that helped with the pad (too many to tag) and Tadasuke for compiling an incredible number of changes here; the CAP viability rankings are definitely in much, much better shape now. Also, I'm a fan of the boober rank :^)

 

[cbrevan]

Pretty sure we're ranking the Megas and their base forms together, but I do agree with Scizor getting a bump to A-. Sure it walled by stuff, and hates fire type attacks, but it has incredible utility with Swords Dance, Defog, Roost, U-Turn, Bullet Punch, and several other gems, and furthermore, their is enough variation in its sets so it isn't ebtirely predictable. Its also a solid check to Mega Metagross, which is great, and can check a bunch of other stuff, like Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, etc. Regular Scizor is pretty good too, CB Bullet Punch just cleans up late game. Basically, its utility, bulk, resistances, and power overshadow its one weakness and inability to break through some mons.

Also, just test the mons out then propose a rank for them lol.

Tada is also a god for getting this up, and good job to everyone who contributed to the pad (you know who you are).

 

[Tadasuke]

The following Pokémon are up for discussion:

• Crobat
• Aerodactyl (Mega)
• Tornadus - T
• Hippowdon
• Kabutops
• Kingdra
• Dragalge
• Alakazam (Mega)
• Blastoise (Mega)
• Toxicroak
• Volcarona
• Ludicolo
• Celebi
• Amoonguss
• Absol (Mega)

I want all of these pokes discussed and suggested for ranks. They do make up a large portion of the unranked group of commonly used pokemon that this list has, and it's very pertinent that we get these added as soon as possible.

 

[BigWigs]

Nominating Dragalge for B.

Dragalge is a rather risky Pokemon to play. With Adaptability, a decent 97 Special Attack, and Choice Specs/Life Orb, Draco Meteor deals immense damage, even to Steel types, making it great for wallbreaking. Any Fairy switching in also risks a STAB Sludge Wave to the face, and Dragalge also has good coverage options, including Scald/Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, and Focus Blast. Throw in a Toxic immunity, some good resistances, and a great Special Defense stat and you also have switch-in opportunities. However, Dragalge has some noticeable faults. It's weak to common moves such as Earthquake, Ice Beam, and Psyshock, making it baby food for common threats like Colossoil and M-Slowbro, as well as horrid base 44 Speed leaving it almost always going last, so you need to play smart in order to utilize Dragalge's nuking potential.

 

[Amitghosh]

i know an unranked discussion is going on, but this rank seemed strange so.. Blissey B rank -> C+ Rank

Blissey is completely outclassed by Chansey, and due to its bad defense, its destroyed by almost any physical attack. The only decent niche is that it can defeat scizor with fire blast, and thats all. it may be decent enough to justify its use on some teams, but overall Blissey is a bad mon and shouldnt be used.

 

[sparktrain]

Supporting Dragalge -> B. Draco Meteor hits incredibly hard; even Steel-types will be hard-pressed to repeatedly switch into this thing. Fairies (bar Klefki and the infinitely viable Mawile) get destroyed by Adaptability Sludge Wave. AV Colossoil can only switch in once; it takes over half from Draco Meteor. In addition to nuking everything with Adaptability-boosted attacks, Dragalge can usually get away with running 3 attacks + Toxic Spikes on Life Orb sets due to the switches it forces. This puts even more pressure on the opponent's team in the form of residual damage, which is invaluable against balance/semi-stall teams (beware of potential Rebound Colossoils, however). The obvious downside to Dragalge is that it's slow as molasses and frail on the physical side, making it quite easy to force out after it gets a kill, not to mention it gets obliterated by Choice Specs Gothitelle. In terms of sheer damage output and utility, however, it is not to be underestimated, and is certainly worthy of a B ranking. (Also, someone needs to slap this thing on a Fidgit TR team, those have been increasing in popularity lately).

Agreeing with the Blissey drop as well; I'd be fine with dropping it even lower tbh. The few benefits it offers over Chansey simply aren't enough to warrant a teamslot for it most of the time.

Will make some of my own nominations later after a bit more testing.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

i know an unranked discussion is going on, but this rank seemed strange so.. Blissey B rank -> C+ Rank

Blissey is completely outclassed by Chansey, and due to its bad defense, its destroyed by almost any physical attack. The only decent niche is that it can defeat scizor with fire blast, and thats all. it may be decent enough to justify its use on some teams, but overall Blissey is a bad mon and shouldnt be used.

I'm not disagreeing here, but it also has a niche of not being trapped by Gothitelle since it can also hold Shed Shell