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CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 5a - (Ability Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 15, 2011.

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  1. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    This post isn't really for suggesting any abilities, but just for a question for reach: What is your stance on custom abilities?
  2. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Regenerator, Intimidate, and Insomnia all seem like great choices for the purposes of allowing it to switch in and out easily against different threats, for reasons previously stated. Regenerator seems like the most effective choice, but that might make it the worst choice with regard to fulfilling the concept... If it gets chosen, we'll have to make sure to keep the Pokemon's movepool in check.
  3. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    Intimidate should be the choice of ability this round, hands down. There are very few abilities that are so well designed at changing the opponent's momentum as Intimidate, an ability that has been known to create switches and poor situations for opponents for generations. This CAP isn't too Physically bulky, and Intimidate actually helps it beat things that is should beat (which can actually beat CAP1 without it), like Terrakion.

    EDIT: Completely forgot about this bad boy: Cursed Body. The chance to disable an opponent's attack would ultimately force a lot of switches and change of pace, and with good bulk, this ability is completely viable. I support this.

    I'd also somewhat support Regenerator as a secondary ability, but with a caveat. 33% health regeneration is cool and all, but combine this with (for the sake of not poll jumping) "any recovery move" and a very possible Volt Change, and we very well may have an incredibly hard Pokemon to take down. Remember, it's only going to take SR damage, and neutral damage at that. I think we may need to make this a DW ability, to prevent certain moves from being used.

    That's really all I probably could tolerate as an ability. Something like Slip Through as an "uncompetitive" ability could also match the concept too, while giving it a cool Momentum-based niche.
  4. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    There are quite a few abilities I'd like to back.

    CompoundEyes: CAP will want some strong moves, possible some of which are inaccurate. Reliably connecting with moves can help to maintain pressure on your opponent, and missing a crucial Air Slash(for example) will lose a LOT of momentum. THis can also help some of CAP's possible supporting moves, like Toxic, which can help ro ruin sweeps of the opponent, giving you a chance to gain momentum. CAP1 would really appreciate 100 acc Air Slash, 91 acc Hurricane and so on, and this will help us to gather momentum easily.

    Unaware: CAP will have to stop the sweeps of several Pokemon like Reuniclus, Excadrill etc. Unaware helps it do it by not having to worry about stat boosts, so it can focus on beating them. It allows CAP a variety of switch ins, and combined with possible access to Roost, allows it to shut down close to any sweep and turns the flow of momentum on its head.

    Mold Breaker: This has less impact on its STABs, and more on its coverage moves. There are several Pokemon who utilize abilities like Levitate/Volt Absorb etc. to make free entrances, and the ability to hit them on their switch in will definitely help gain momentum.


    If you've noticed, all 3 of these abilities gain momentum by focusing on a component of a Pokemon. I feel this is how we should take this Pokemon, because if we attempt to make it gain momentum against Pokemon as a whole, we will end up with another Krilowatt.
  5. TravelLog

    TravelLog

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    Moody could definitely be useful and add an element of unpredictability to CAP1 which considering its nature as a momentum pokemon could be very useful. Furthermore, it could help put opponents off their guard, also making stat raising moves less needed for our CAP.

    Infiltrator/Slip Through could also be good since it would be very bad news for our CAP to have its momentum robbed by an ill-timed lightscreen or reflect.

    I also second Regeneration, though I worry it might be too powerful.

    If we want to go that route, Prankster/Teasing Heart could also be useful to ensure our CAP isn't derailed by priority moves.

    Finally, as a DW ability, I might suggest contrary since it could provide some much needed armor against stat-lowering abilities which might steal our momentum.
  6. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    As I said right at the beginning when we first began, I am utterly opposed to creating any kind of custom ability or move for this CAP. This is the first CAP of 5th Generation, and there are already dozens of new abilities and moves to choose from. In addition, there are practical issues with implementing custom abilities/moves on Pokemon Online that make it implausible anyway.
  7. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Moody is useless because its banned, just saying.
  8. HeavyOctillery

    HeavyOctillery

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    I was going to suggest Limber, just because Sleep-inducers aren't quite as plentiful as T-Wavers (and there's the new-&-improved Glare), but I'd forgotten about Wonder Skin, which helps take care of all 4 major statuses. Not being able to attack would severely hinder this CAP's job, and Poison (the Toxic kind) makes it harder for it to stick around for very long.

    Cloud Nine/Air Lock, as already stated by a few people, would also be a great idea. It keeps sand from being an issue, while not having to resort to Magic Guard, which we all (mostly, anyway) agree is overkill. I choose this over Overcoat since it also shuts down both Rain & Sun in addition to that, meaning it gains a shitload of potential switch-ins.

    I also like Unaware, for being able to keep stat-boosters at bay.
  9. fairytale

    fairytale

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    I think it's important for this CAP to be able to switch in and out without worrying too much about status ruining it's fun. Momentum definitely isn't going your way if you're switching into a sleep, so I support the already suggested Vital Spirit (or Insomnia, Vital Spirit seems to fit a fighting/flying type better though.) Admittedly, sleep isn't THAT common. Probably not even as common as it was last gen, but Breloom is still around, and this CAP makes breloom cry. Limber would also be good. The CAP may not be that fast anyway, but paralysis keeps it from doing anything 25% of the time, and outspeeding slow walls is important. Again, paralysis isn't that common, but it helps. I also like Intimidate, as this pokemon will mainly be dealing with physical threats and intimidate forces switches. Natural Cure also deals with status, pokemon who have to take toxic/burn damage don't enjoy switching in too often. It somewhat deals with paralysis and sleep too. Might be kind of weird flavor-wise though.

    As for Magic Mirror (or whatever it's called these days) it's pretty much the best way to repel status, but I feel it's a bit too much. Magic mirror makes shitty pokemon like Xatu useful, and this pokemon is looking to be pretty useful anyway so... yeah. I really don't think it should be repelling hazards and shit, otherwise I'd be fine with it.
  10. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    Intimidate is ability numero uno.

    So much of 5th Gen physical offense is patently absurd. Excadrill and Landlos deal obscene amounts of physical damage, and those are just the tip of an iceberg that includes Garchomp, Salamence, Terrakion, and Gyarados. Intimidate blunts this offense and gives CAP 1 that many more switchins. The fact its typing makes it neutral to Rock, Immune to Ground, and resistant to Fighting makes it ideal.

    This one will seem odd, but I'm suggesting Sand Force.

    Sandstorm is just as ubiquitous this generation, and Sand Force provides us with two crucial elements: The first is immunity to Sandstorm damage, which allows Leftovers sets to keep their considerable bulk. The second is that Sand Force can boost some coverage moves that have specific use against a few common threats. Evem if the only Ground or Rock attack CAP 1 gets is Hidden Power, the boost brings Hidden Power Rock to a respectable 91 Base, perfectly suitable for addressing some of the more dangerous Flying-type threats like Thundurus and Gyarados. Since none of the moves boosted by Sand Force are STAB and only Rock gains significant coverage, it gives CAP1 more flexibility in Sandstorm. Combined potentially with Hurricane that will give it a power boost in Rain, CAP1 will be balanced enough to take advantage of the two most common weathers.
  11. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    I'm only really willing to back Intimidate and Unaware at this stage of the process (meaning I might support more if one of these is taken care of). I feel that if CAP 1 needs any ability in particular, it's one of these two. Lately, I've been wondering about the actual need for it, but I think that Garchomp as well as the physical metagame in general should be addressed. Intimidate in particular practically screams "momentum", and Unaware can really help the concept as well by shutting down power boosts from sweepers like Landorus, Garchomp and Blaziken.

    Terrakion isn't OHKOed by Aura Sphere in the sand iirc, so :( about that.

    I also considered Electric immunity moves and Sand Rush, but these seem like rather cheesy ways to accomplish the aforementioned and/or take down Thundurus.

    I'm kind of strapped for time, so I apologize if this post isn't as fiercely supported as you guys may like.
  12. Attract

    Attract

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    Intimidate and Air Lock and Regenerator

    Intimidate is an amazing ability which will let the CAP switch in on attacks that normally 2HKO it, turning them into 3HKO's, giving it a chance to retaliate. Most of the Jibaku's calcs showed that CAP 1 could be 2HKO'd by every common threat at +2. This means:

    1. It can't switch in to these attacks with any success, and therefore,
    2. It can't retaliate, letting them continue to sweep your team.

    By giving CAP1 Intimidate, it'll turn these 2HKO's into 3HKO's, appropriately scaring off the threats, and Roost-ing. etc. on the switch. If the threats aren't at +2 then it would make the damage laughable.

    Air Lock provides survivability, but in a more specific fashion. With Air Lock, it will be able to switch into Landorus and neutral Water and Fire attacks a lot easier, and be able to KO Tyranitar and Terrakion that much easier. It is a solid ability, but it isn't as useful as hitting threats that can appear on all teams, not just weather-centric teams.

    Regenerator is also pretty rad, it allows the CAP to switch in on a predicted resist, dish something out for a turn, and escape to fight another day. Though it doesn't provide any short-term survivability or give it an answer to fast-powerful weather sweepers.
  13. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    The only ability I would support at this moment would be Intimidate. Like capefeather said, Intimidate screams momentum, as this CAP's typing and defensive stats will further reduce the damage dealt by physical attackers. I guess it could also serve as a damper on set-up sweepers (+0 Salamence deals much less than +1 Salamence).

    Though it would help against set-up sweepers, I'm kind of opposed to Unaware. While it is true that it completely neuters Pokemon that require stat boosts to become effective (Blaziken, Rankurusu to some extent), I don't really think it supports the idea of Momentum; the previously mentioned Pokemon can still deal good damage with their STAB attacks.

    Some calcs assuming 212 HP EVs (404 HP) and 44 EVs of defense (assuming 252 goes into Sp.A)

    +0 Adamant Blaziken Flare Blitz v 212/44 CAP 1: 211 - 250 (52.23% - 61.88%)
    97% to 2HKO, and this is without any boosts.

    +0 Modest Rankurusu Psycho Shock v 212/44 CAP 1: 290 - 344 (71.78% - 85.15%)
    Guaranteed 2HKO; once again, this is without any boosts. Should Rank have a Life Orb attached...

    +0 Modest Rankurusu Psycho Shock v 212/44 CAP 1: 378 - 446 (93.56% - 110.40%)
    58.97% to OHKO; guaranteed with Rocks up.

    I don't really think Unaware would help too much against these Pokemon since they are already powerful enough to 2HKO; I'd rather have something else that could be more useful (but not overpowering).
  14. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Looking at the posts since this one, I'm changing my stance to agree with others who have posted that Intimidate is the ideal option.
  15. kalamadude

    kalamadude

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    The ability is probably the easiest stage of this CAP for toying around with Momentum. The diverse abilities of the game really control the pace of the match. Add onto this the fact that many activate as you enter play (hence when you're trying to gain momentum) and you have a really obvious chance for Momentum-control.

    I'm sad to say this, but I don't think Regenerator fits this concept well at all (sad, because it's my favorite new ability - been running Regenerator Slowbro since day one of Gen V). As people have said, it makes him a better POKEMON, but it doesn't really let him control momentum all that well. In fact, he has to be switching OUT for it to activate. Yes, it lets him come in more, but that doesn't have much to do with momentum especially when you're looking for the first chance to switch him out anyway.

    Intimidate is the obvious one here, allowing him to check more Pokémon and force people out. With his defenses, any physical sweeper will more or less be forced to switch unless they have several boosts under their belt. Add in Whirlwind or a status move and you will be severely messing with the opponent - stopping a sweep and crippling another Pokémon. Stellar.

    Remember when I mentioned that Intimidate doesn't help if the bastard has gotten too many DDs or SDs under his belt? Yeah, Unaware stops many sweepers cold (especially with a defensive spread and typing like this). Just by virtue of switching in you completely neuter an enemy sweeper and can watch his attacks bounce off. A definite sweep has just been turned into an opportunity for you to status, heal, phaze, or attack with a very respectable special attack.

    Finally, anything that would add more immunities would be splendid, in particular immunity to statuses would allow him to become a status absorber as well (another great momentum changer). Things like Insomnia, Limber, or even Sap Sipper, Storm Drain, Lightning Rod, or Flash Fire. Finally, to be a little less overpowered than some of this abilities (lolLightningRod), something like Thick Fat would greatly increase walling potential and in my mind, a wall that you can't touch switching in is the pinnacle of momentum shift. You HAVE to switch out and he can do whatever he wants.


    Edit:

    Another epic new ability Magic Mirror also seems to be the definition of momentum - making the opponent waste one of THEIR turns doing something to help YOUR team when all you had to do was switch in. Kind of the perfect example of Momentum. Plus, it makes him immune to status, which I alluded to earlier. My only qualm is that it (like Magic Guard) seems just ridiculously overpowered. Again, love the idea, think it fits the concept perfectly, but it just seems to good for something with stats like these.
  16. jas61292

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    Ok, while I already said this briefly in my first post, I would just like to reiterate that I think Intimidate is not a good ability for CAP1.

    We all know Intimidate is a great ability and as such has gotten a lot of support. However, take a look at the Pokemon that get intimidate. Most are physical attackers whose main use of intimidate is to get a free set up turn. I feel if we give CAP1 Intimidate we would have to avoid giving it any boosting moves at all or it will just become anothe one of these sweepers.

    Additionally, on the defensive side, even without a boosting move, Intimidate could be seen as overpowered. It already takes physical hits well and intimidate just amplifies that. Looking once again at the other Pokemon who get intimidate, CAP1 is already significanly bulkier on the physical side than any of them. It's physical Tankieness is almost 10 points higher than Scrafty, the next most bulky Intimidater, and 22 points higher than all others. Helping it out physically is not needed and may just be overpowering. Besides, wasn't the idea behind its typing to give it good immunities and resists (ground and fighting) to switch into.

    I think it would be a much wiser choice to give it an ability that affects a different aspect, other than what it is already supposed to be good at (Big Pecks FTW).
  17. Attract

    Attract

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    It's whole purpose is to take physical hits well enough to scare off the opponent, or kill it. As it is, CAP 1 won't be able to switch into these powerful physical attacks and stay in long enough to actually do anything. Giving it Intimidate will make switching in and taking an attack that much easier, and it will punish pokes trying to get in a swords dance/dragon dance on a predicted switch by being able to survive the following attack with ease, and OHKO back.
  18. Staraptor Call

    Staraptor Call

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    Intimidate is the classic momentum ability. It would let CAP1 force a large number of switches by lowering its opponents' Attack stats, but not be overpowered because it only applies to Physical attackers. Also, in a metagame full of Pokemon with ridiculous Attack stats and STABs that are neutral on CAP1, CAP1 needs all the Physical bulkiness it can get to be able to switch in on Physical attackers and gain momentum.

    Another option would be Shed Skin. While Intimidate would help CAP1 gain momentum, Shed Skin would keep it from losing momentum. Status is a common way of stopping a Pokemon's momentum, and by giving CAP1 Shed Skin the effect of all status on CAP1 would be lessened. Regenerator or Natural Cure would not be as good because activating them requires losing momentum by switching, so those two abilities do not help CAP1 keep momentum it already has.

    A choice between Intimidate and Shed Skin would let the players make CAP1 a momentum Pokemon from one of two different directions: a Pokemon focused on taking momentum from the opponent, and a Pokemon focused on maintaining momentum. We shouldn't make CAP1 solely a Pokemon used to gain momentum, since keeping momentum once gained is also worth exploring. Giving CAP1 a choice between Intimidate and Shed Skin would allow this.
  19. jas61292

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    Yeah, taking physical hits well is one part of its purpose, but not all of it. Additionally, as I said, we designed its typing to give it the ability to switch in on common physical attacking types. You can't tell me that it needs intimidate to take Fighting attacks well (or bug or grass or [obviously] ground]). We are not trying to build a physical wall here, so we don't need to be able to take on every physical attacker and force them out.

    An ability giving it more specific moves to switch into (Vital Spirit, Limber, Thick Fat), or one that can make you more useful in the long run (Regenerator) would be much more appropriate for CAP1 than Intimidate, which would make it into more of an all-purpose physical tank.
  20. TravelLog

    TravelLog

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    I think the problem we are running into again is one of defining momentum. Maybe we should have one ability aimed at maintaining momentum (like Shed Skin or Regenerator) and have the other aimed at breaking an enemy's momentum and building our own (like Intimidate, Infiltrator or Moxie), Defiant might also work for this).

    On the support side, we could consider Prankster and defensively, Filter is a very good option as it lessens any worries we might have about being hit with high powered Super Effective moves, particularly Electric and Ice, though Shield Dust is good too.
  21. MofoAmbulance

    MofoAmbulance

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    Unaware is a brilliant ability for this CAP, maybe too much so, as repeated plays against Quagsire have taught me. Set up sweepers have their momentum stopped in their tracks, helped by its natural bulkiness (much more so than Quagsire). However, it only stops an ASPECT of the opponent's momentum, and as such is only truly useful against set-up sweepers.

    I feel that Contrary has a lot of potential dependant on the CAP's movepool, but it would be treading an awfully fine line, as we've seen with Serperior's immense Leaf Storms climbing it straight to DW OU. Reversing Intimidates, etcetera. Given the CAP's below-par attack stat, a Close Combat would serve to add straight to its bulk while chipping away at the opponent's health, slowly turning it into an immense wall, whereas Superpower would increase its sub-par attack and add to its great defense. However, as I said before, this would need to be covered VERY carefully, as it is borderline overpowered.

    Trace is a great one in general, allowing for the CAP to catch up with the various weather abuse teams (assuming it traces a swift swim/chlorophyll/sand rush pokemon), and is also useful in general for scouting opponent's abilities to get a grasp of what that pokemon's momentum gaining plan is and using it to your advantage.

    Magic Mirror is a great ability, but it may not be able to see much use considering the lack of entry hazards in the 5th gen metagame... was what I thought before I forgot it bounced back status moves too. Could be very, very good.
  22. Attract

    Attract

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    I definitely agree with you when you say that we want it to switch it into resisted attacks, and that having Intimidate will make these attacks do very little. The only problem is that, even with the stats we have, it still gets 2HKO'd by stat boosters like Excadrill, Landorus, Blaziken, and Terrakion without some help. Odds are not every switch in will be to a resist for the CAP, so if it ends up in the face of even an unboosted ScarfChomp Outrage, we want the CAP to be able to survive with some certainty. People have suggested Unaware simply because of the power of stat-boosters in the metagame, and Intimidate will usually impact these stat boosters less than Unaware. Intimidate helps the CAP take hits and force switches. If it can't do this it is useless.
  23. Xiom

    Xiom

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    Magic Mirror

    I think this is a compleatly great ability concerning momentum. If you can manage to switch in on an apropriate move, not only would your enemy waste a turn but you would get all the benefits from doing so. Turning momentum to your end instead of your opponents. Also makes CAP1 imune to most forms of status that could otherwise make it lose the momentum it gains.

    Intimidate

    Another great ability to gain momentum. No physical attacker likes to have its attack lowered. Can force switches in some instances and also aids in making CAP1 more resistant to physical attacks making it live longer.

    More defensive abilities like Shed Skin and Regenerator doesn't directly help it to gain momentum, but still are very nice abilities non the less.

    EDIT: can't belive I forgot.

    Prankster

    I think this is a great ability concering momentum when used along with the right moves. Encoring Earthquake or set up moves would force whatever out giving you momentum. Even if you don't run Prankster or Encore that possibility means the enemy in question would fear staying is as theres still that posibility you do have it. Encore isn't the only option. Theres lots of other posibilities. Setting up an apropriate screen before they can hit you. Taunting Defensive pokemons. Even moves like Torment, Disable and similar could prove usefull with Prankster
  24. Yllnath

    Yllnath

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    I'd like to throw my support mainly behind Magic Mirror. Being able to come in on just about any support/status move not only gives a lot of free switching oppertunity's, but more importantly, reflecting those moves back to the opponent is immensely useful in terms of gaining momentum, forcing support pokemon to switch, etc.

    Regenerator is a definite solid choice as well, for it to be able to pivot without having to worry much about being worn down too fast. Also allows for scouting more often.

    Intimidate is a given, and imo outclasses Unaware, for the simple fact that some pokemon can hit extremely hard from the get-go. Getting them down to -1 means that CAP1 will have such an easier time switching in versus physical threats and forcing them out at the same time.

    Prankster is the only other ability I somewhat like. Being able to throw whatever kind of +1 prio support move up after switching in goes a long way to maintain momentum.
    Of course, should we chose Prankster, we need a good and diverse support movepool.
    Moves like Reflect or Light Screen can help this pokemon become a good check to the pokemon it's currently facing, although that's poll jumping. A move like Taunt stops walls and Encore stops set-up pokemon. The possibilities are endless and Prankster is likely very good for maintaining momentum once you get in.
    However, unlike Intimidate or Magic Mirror, which also provide far more oppertunity's to switch in, or Regenerator, which gives some failsaves against faulty switch ins, Prankster really only helps on maintaining momentum, and I feel it is just a little bit worse of than the above 3.
  25. Scoopapa

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    I really like the idea of regeneration, as it prevents cap1 from being worn down on repeated switch-ins. Wounded pokemon are generally bad for momentum, as you often have to sack something to get them in. When a pokemon only has the HP to counter a specific threat once, you are essentially losing momentum when you use it, as you are one step closer to allowing that threat to get at the rest of your team. Your opponent has a clear path to gaining an advantage - get said threat in just one more time. Of course, I'm not saying a pokemon who can't infini-counter a large group of pokemon is bad - most pokemon fall into this category. I simply think that being able to easily maintain high health would be a unique boon to a momentum pokemon, removing "slowly wear down CAP1" from your opponents list of options and making "cyclical" battles favor CAP1. Also, most pokemon have to use up a turn to recover, which often allows free switches. We really, really, don't want CAP1 giving free switches.

    Poison Heal would work similarly, as it allows CAP to heal a lot of health without doing anything. In comparison with regeneration, it trades some healing for status immunity.
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