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CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 5c - (Secondary Ability Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 17, 2011.

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  1. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    Now that CAP1 has received Intimidate as its primary ability, it is time for us to choose a complementary secondary ability. I strongly advise that our secondary ability be truly complementary--that is focuses on taking a completely different approach from Intimidate. Intimidate is clearly the best ability for taking on top physical threats like Excadrill and Landorus, so the secondary ability should concentrate on dealing with other issues entirely. As a result, keep in mind that the preferred options for a secondary ability may not be the same as the preferred options were for the primary ability. Like the primary ability discussion, Arena Trap, Drizzle, Drought, Imposter, Multitype, Shadow Tag, Tinted Lens, Wonder Guard, and Zen Mode are out of consideration, and now Huge Power, Magic Bounce, Pure Power and Unaware are out of consideration as well.

    A process-related issue of note: although this is called the "secondary ability", at our discretion we may choose to make this instead a Dream World ability, presumed released. The reason to do this would be in the eventuality that there are very powerful move + ability combinations that we would like to see excluded.

    Also, please note that as a matter of procedure, "No Secondary Ability" will be an option on the Secondary Ability Poll regardless of discussion in this thread.

    Here is our Pokemon so far:

    Typing: Flying/Fighting

    Base Stats: 105 HP/60 Atk/90 Def/115 SpA/80 SpD/85 Spe

    Abilities: Intimidate

    This thread will remain open for at least 24 hours.
  2. Jibaku

    Jibaku Balance is a fool's master
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    I have two abilities in mind:

    Regenerator and Poison Heal reflect my thoughts from the last ability submission (they help keep CAP1 alive so it can maintain momentum easier, allowing continue it to come in whenever you want it to should it be dragged in at unfortunate times), and furthermore give Intimidate competition in terms of viability and usage, but not so much that these two abilities would be preferred over it 100% of the time.
  3. SgtWoodsy

    SgtWoodsy

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    As mentioned before, we can't make custom abilities at all. PO's coding won't let us.
  4. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    Please do not suggest custom abilities. This CAP is not receiving one, under any circumstances. Any post suggesting a custom ability will henceforth face immediate deletion.

    Edit: @xlxlxlxl: Yes, this Pokemon will be receiving a Dream World ability, unless the voters choose to vote for No Dream World Ability. Remember, however, that only two of this Pokemon's abilities are allowed to be competitively useful.
  5. doominic77

    doominic77

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    Well in that case, Poison Heal would work well (though why would a Flying/Fighting pokemon get Poison Heal). Cursed Body is a good momentum builder with a 3 in 10 chance of negating an attack. Thick Fat could be also a good ability although Ice and Fire aren`t the most commonly used special types. Clould Nine could also be good bringing momentum specifically to weather teams. Guts could be used to bring momentum to status users.
  6. xlxlxlxl

    xlxlxlxl

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    I support Prankster for the reasons mentioned in the primary ability discussion. Prankster will allow CAP1 to save speed EVs and gain momentum against a variety of pokemon and team styles. Intimidate is only useful against pokemon using physical moves, so CAP1's second ability should have uses against other pokemon. I think that CAP1 should have a general use ability instead of a second situational ability like Cloud Nine or Cursed Body.

    Will there be a DW ability also?
  7. Anachronism

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    I would like to mention Cloud Nine/Air Lock. Negating weather effects would be very useful when dealing with certain pokemon, notably Terakion, as I don't think you OHKO it without serious spA investment in sandstorm. You also have a shot at outspeeding Excadrill that don't run max speed.
  8. Zebstrika

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    I think Volt Absorb would be good. Switching in on an electric attack would heal you even after residual damage like Stealth Rock and weather. It also negates an Electric weakness, which is one of the most commonly used special types that is super effective against CAP1. Lightningrod and Motor Drive (especially) seem like they would make it more sweeperish, making Volt Absorb better.

    Filter could also work well. It eases prediction and makes a loss of momentum on your side less likely.
  9. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    68 + 37 + 22 + 6 = 133

    68/133 = 51.13%

    Anyways, I'm once again going to bring up Cursed Body into the polling discussion. There are very, very few abilities that aid Momentum well, but Cursed Body seems to accomplish this. Permanent move disabling would completely shatter gameplans, while CAP1's above average bulk would allow us to have a decent chance at scoring a disabling of a move. Nothing is more threatening than not being able to use your effective STAB move, or worse yet, hit CAP1 altogether.

    Again, weak support for Regenerator here, since there are still some concerns with great bulk + constant switching in and out resulting in an increasingly difficult Pokemon to take out - almost too difficult.

    No Poison Heal. This will lead to loads of trouble, like movepool limitations, that are quite honestly not very fun. Not to mention that the ability is simply just a double Leftovers recovery - another aspect that will potentially keep CAP1 alive forever combined with Substitutes and immunities to Toxic. Breloom isn't overpowered because it's frail and has lots of weaknesses. CAP1? Not so much, no. EDIT: Whoops, forgot about Gliscor. Still, Gliscor has eh Special Defense, while CAP has above average. Not to mention a 4x weakness to Ice, and a weakness to Water.
  10. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Poison Heal

    This is an ability I've talked to a lot of users about on IRC, and I want to bring up here so that everyone can see why I'm so excited and hopeful that we push CAP1 in this direction. With Poison Heal, CAP1 will run Toxic Orb over Leftovers, and this comes with many, many benefits that I will elucidate below.

    Effective status immunity

    Once CAP1 activates its Toxic Orb, it picks up virtual status immunity. This renders it immune to stray burns, taking poison damage, being slowed down by paralysis, and makes CAP1 exceptional at absorbing Spore and Sleep Powder. This helps it garner additional switch-ins, and can turn otherwise terrifying predictions into safe switches that CAP1 can capitalize on.

    Effective damaging weather immunity

    CAP1 picks up 1/8 healing per turn, which outheals the damaging effects of hail and, more usefully, sandstorm. This means that CAP1 isn't worn down incessantly by the likes of sandstorm when switching into Excadrill or Landorus. This enables it to keep using Substitute even when in a sandstorm and not be totally worn down as quickly as it would with Intimidate.

    Gives CAP1 exceptional staying power

    One of the problems I see with something like Regenerator is that it only helps CAP1 when it flees from battle. This means that while out, Regenerator isn't helping CAP1 with momentum at all! Poison Heal, on the other hand, restores 12.5% per turn (after the first) that CAP1 is out. This allows CAP1 to stay out longer and keep itself healthy in the face of Pokemon that would love nothing more than to steal momentum away from it.

    Isn't broken on CAP!

    We could easily make Poison Heal the DW ability to allow us to force it to have some move illegalities when using it if you're worried. These illegalities might include moves like Roost that would otherwise be exceptionally useful in making CAP1 nigh impossible to kill with Poison Heal. For this reason, we really won't have any issues with a brokenmon by using Poison Heal, and we gain the full benefit of a CAP with great staying power.

    Contrasts excellently with Intimidate

    Intimidate is an immediate boost (or drop, as it were) on the switch, which allows CAP1 to really force switches. Poison Heal, on the other hand, complements a different playstyle completely by not affording as much up-front oomph and instead focusing on keeping CAP1 out longer and with higher total HP. This is pretty much the ideal balance we want for our abilities, especially if we'd like them to not be relegated to comments like: "Man, why would we EVER use X over Intimidate?" I know I would use Poison Heal over Intimidate on some builds.
  11. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    I'd back Poison Heal and Compoundeyes. The former lets you evade status easily, while the latter gives you much more accuracy, so you connect more with your attacks, gaining more momentum.
  12. Sambobz

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    I realize that countering sand is very helpful in gaining momentum, but it's along the same lines as intimidate in than it just helps vs sand dudes. in almost all cases I would prefer intimidate. although if we were running an ability like this I would opt for trace over cloudnine/airlock

    Edit: I am sold on poison heal over regenerator or natural cure

    volt absorb; as much as I would love it, it's kinda ridiculous.
  13. guddagudda

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    Air Lock/Cloud Nine is a great ability to stop and reverse momentum from any weather team, without making this an "Anti-Weather" Pokemon, per say. For instance, coming in on an Excadrill or, to a lesser extent, Landlos in Sand could potentially shift momentum entirely from facing being swept to forcing a switch. Another example of how this could help is getting rid of Tyranitar's SpD boost in Sand, thus allowing for a STAB Fighting-type move to potentially OHKO (damage calcs would need to be done to see if Vacuum Wave would have a shot at this, as otherwise a speedy Ttar could Stone Edge this CAP easily). This would also help in switching momentum away from Rain and Sun sweepers / walls that rely on weather to succeed. Prankster would allow for the CAP to beat threats that it would otherwise lose to including Tyranitar, as previously mentioned. It would also allow for a greater support role in any team by making its low Speed a non-factor. Unaware is a great ability to consider for a momentum Pokemon, as it makes stat boosts gained by the opponent's Pokemon irrelevant. This could lead to major reversals of momentum. Compoundeyes is a great idea, allowing for CAP to have much more offensive prowess than it would otherwise. This would force more switches, and thus shift momentum in your favor in this way. Poison Heal doesn't make much sense to me on a Fighting/Flying type in the first place. However, I do see the benefits of the ability. I'm not entirely sold on it for this Pokemon, as it does nothing to ruin momentum or gain momentum, but rather gives itself a more reliable form of Leftovers and status immunity. Other less developed ideas are Battle Armor to make sure that hax aren't shifting momentum away from you, Scrappy to help it hit Ghost-type switch ins that will be inevitable otherwise, Trace—though situational—which has shown to be very effective on other "momentum" Pokemon like Pory2 holding Eviolite, Serene Grace or Super Luck to turn the tides quickly, and Mold Breaker and Magic Guard to make the opponent's ability and residual damage non-factors, respectively.
  14. Zebstrika

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    Compoundeyes seems like it will only encourage the use of Focus Miss (it still has a 9% chance to miss) and Hurricane over Aura Sphere and Air Slash. Then, not only will the CAP (we seriously need a name now) have more power which indicates that it would be a good sweeper, but the stronger moves have a higher chance to miss with Compoundeyes than the weaker moves without Compoundeyes. No Guard is probably a worse choice, as you gain loads of momentum by switching in on a miss, something that will not happen with No Guard.
  15. Sambobz

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    I just had a thought you outrun whimsicott (along with all the other pranksters) with trace if you have max speed and they are running max defenses.
  16. Aerodactyl Legend

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    Haha, you're slightly right, but in CaP, that doesn't matter at all (plus, an artist's rendition might explain it) since we're in it for the competitiveness, not flavor.

    And I haven't even thought about Poison Heal yet, but that's a great alternative ability. The most important point given by Rising_Dusk is the immunity to other status conditions which opens up a lot of opportunities for this CAP to affect momentum. I just really wish it was faster though, but the Special Attack preference can take on situations differently than those with physical prefences.

    Has anyone brought up Pranksteryet? I didn't see it in the previous discussion, but the priority for non attacking moves seems almost a given for the concept.

    *Edit*

    Found out Prankster has been argued for. I'm definitely going for it or either Poison Heal.
  17. tophway

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    I really like both Regenerator and Poison Heal, for many of the reasons Rising Dusk listed, but I think the comparison made above misrepresents how Regenerator is great for momentum.


    In the following scenario...

    TURN A
    cap1 switches in
    cap1 takes damage from attack

    TURN B
    opponent switches out to Zapdos
    cap1 takes turn to do whatever

    TURN C
    cap1 switches out because oh shit its Zapdos!

    ...Poison Heal has healed cap1 for two turns, giving it 25% of its health back. Regenerator on the other hand has given cap1 45% of its health back (12% of its health from 2 turns of lefties plus 33% of its health back for the next time it switches in). Now thats a case where Regenerator is superior to Poison Heal in terms of maintaining health, and given cap1's great typing I imagine it will be doing a lot of switching in and out.

    In fact, if cap1 stayed in for five turns and switched out before being KOd, it will have gained roughly the same amount of health back from Regenerator + lefties as it would from Poison Heal. Of course there are the other great benefits to Poison heal enumerated in Rising Dusk's post, but for the most part I do not count "staying power" as an advantage.


    The notion that because the ability does not activate until switching out somehow robs it of its momentum gaining capabilities is misguided imo. For every time you switch in to take a resisted hit, Regenerator essentially gives you a free turn by not forcing you to spend a turn healing with wish/roost/recover/protect (I hope its not too far'fetched of a poll jump to assume some recovery is coming its way). The free turn this buys you can be spent statusing/attacking an incoming threat, or making a smart double switch knowing your cap1 is going to be healthy enough to take the same resisted hit again.

    Basically, in my mind Regenerator = I dont have to heal! = free turn = momentum gained. I like Poison Heal just as well, just dont understand the hate on Regnerator!
  18. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    Are people really not seeing this?

    If we gave this thing Poison Heal, we are putting it on something with 105/90/80 defenses (nice), and the Special Attack of Jolteon that hits a lot Super Effective.

    ARE YOU NOT SEEING HOW THIS WILL BREAK IT MORE?

    It gives it a status immunity, with insane recovery. Sure, Gliscor gets it. But Gliscor can be broken down easier with the x4 weakness, and has 20 less base attack. Back on topic, CAPmon already has Intimidate, and great offense (115/85 base speed is good if you ask me). Putting Poison Heal on something like this will be crazy...but this is all imo.

    EDIT: OT, I think Regeneration is good as stated above, doesn't break it too much, and might be good for the fact that this thing will probably do a lot more switching than people give it credit.
  19. Aerodactyl Legend

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    There is no guarantee of any other characteristics of the CAP yet, so you can't say it looks like it would be broken on just these points alone. Sure it has high Special Attack and Hp, but its defenses are admittedly above average. Plus, it obviously has nowhere near the Speed of Jolteon. In my honest opinion, a strong ability like Poison Heal would be needed on a stat spread like this.
  20. Evil Einstein

    Evil Einstein

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    Even though it was talked about as a primary ability, I would like to suggest Prankster.

    Intimidate makes CAP1 more of a wall/tank. It checks/counters physical threats and regains momentum, hopefully just like the concept set out to do.

    Prankster (Mischievous Heart) makes CAP1 more of a bulky supporter. It would regain momentum with supporting moves rather than pure stopping power. Not to poll jump, but some examples of this would be a priority substitute, and a faster whirlwind than any other Pseudo-hazer in the game since it gets -6 instead of -7.

    We do not just want another tanking-based ability. Why not give it some supporting power?
  21. RitterCat

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    I agree with the arguments for Poison Heal
    Basically, Rising_Dusk brought up everything that is great about it. It absorbs status, and is also a great source of recovery with Toxic Orb. Personally since there is a slight chance it could be broken I think it should be the DW ability.
    Other good options are Prankster and Regeneration. Having priority on status and the like is nice for a momenum keeper, and Regeneration also gives nice recovery. Also, has Guts been considered? It helps for status conditions as well.
    EDIT: Oh wait, facepalm, Guts would be useless.
  22. jas61292

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    Well, with intimidate as one ability, I think we should go a different route for the second ability. Since one of the main points of intimidate is to soften blows and generally make you more bulky, I think we should avoid adding a purely defensively minded ability such as Poison Heal or one that give more resistances/immunities such as Thick Fat or Volt Absorb.

    Prankster would be an interesting ability as it is more supportive rather than purely defensive. While we don't know what moves CAP1 will get yet, almost any non-damaging move can benefit from priority. It would allow for completely different sets than Intimidate, rather than just changing the ability on a specific set.

    Cloud Nine is another good choice. As a weather move it can be defensive, offensive and supportive at the same time. Being able to reduce damage from water/fire attacks that would normally get a weather boost is nice, but just as valuable is the ability to disable rock types SpDef boost in SS. And while it helps CAP1 change the momentum on opposing weather teams, it also allows it to help out your own by stopping your opponent from using your weather to their advantage.

    Cursed Body is an interesting choice, but might actually be one of the best ones. Nothing stops an opponents momentum like preventing them from using their best move. It might not be the most reliable ability ever, but when it works, it may just be the most useful.

    Regenerator may be seen as more of a defensive ability, but I still like it. Unlike Poison Heal it does not grant a status immunity which in my opinion would be overpowering on such a bulky Pokemon. However, this would still allow it a reliable way of healing even if it doesn't get a recovery move (yeah, like that will happen). This would be the perfect ability for CAP1 if it decides to use a more offensive set as it can keep up its bulk without needing to invest as much. Also, this works incredibly well with U-Turn or Volt Change or Baton Pass if it gets any of those (which if I had to guess, it obviously will)

    EDIT:
    Since I think Poison Heal is kinda broken I just wanted to ask what your point is. The only actual argument you made here was that it is not as fast as Jolteon. Everything else agreed with the arguments that Poison Heal does not belong on such a bulky (and somewhat powerful) Pokemon.

    Also, the word "but" in you second sentence seems to imply that "its defenses are admittedly above average" is a bad thing. Isn't being bulky what would make this ability OP?
  23. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    This isn't personally directed at you, Dusk, but rather to Poison Heal support in general. You just happened to bring up the best points about it so far. :P

    Status is immunity is great, I don't think many (if any) people could argue a point against that. However, the question isn't whether or not it's good or bad but rather is it necessary? Looking at each status individually:

    Sleep: Pretty much Sleep is relegated to a few things. One, Spore, which both users of it (one being more popular than the other, Breloom) are very weak to one of our STAB moves and can't do much in return when CAP1 switches in anyway. You then have Sleep Powder, which has many of the same problems as Spore: Grass-mons use them. Lastly there is Hypnosis, which has terrible, terrible accuracy problems. Sleep is "inconvenient", sure, but thanks to the nerf to a maximum of three turns asleep as well as the few Pokemon that can cause sleep, it is nowhere near as threatening as it was in previous generations, especially keeping just CAP1's typing and stats in mind.

    Poison (Toxic): We already won half of this battle simply by having a Flying typing: no Toxic Spikes. However, the number of Pokemon that actually use Toxic is currently on a short list. Most of these Pokemon are slower, meaning that they can only catch CAP1 on the switch. Another point: CAP1 shouldn't really be switching in on these Pokemon at all anyway. Blissey/Chansey? CAP1 isn't going to be doing anything special to these two other than non-attack preventing moves, or maybe some gimmicky set (not going to poll jump).

    Burn: This time, around 4/5ths of the battle is won with pretty much 0% reliance on Physical attacks. The 12% health loss is never a positive, but combined with Leftovers, a 6% health loss combined with a possible recovery move (assuming no PH) really makes Burns have minimal impact. I don't see this as necessary.

    Paralysis: Probably the only unfortunate status for CAP1 to have, and only because of the 25% chance of not making a move. That's just annoying. However, not a lot of things faster than CAP1 run Thunder Wave (bar things like Thundurus, which beats CAP1 anyway), so once again, it'll have to hit on the switch. The speed loss isn't terrible either, since it has the bulk to survive strong attacks and the strength to KO still.

    Freeze: This only happens when hit by an Ice move. I find it hard to argue that this is a benefit when Ice moves hit CAP1 for super effective damage anyway.

    I think it's "cool" to have immunities to status. But is it necessary to prevent them? Absolutely not. CAP1 can easily perform its duty while being status-induced. In fact, it probably will have ways around status in matches regardless of ability.

    This is a neat quirk, granted. However, just Leftovers still makes the Sandstorm damage take 0% off of CAP1. It can still do its job without constant recovery, after all. Not to mention that I don't think CAP1 will be using Substitute often against something like a pure SS team, where is simply will have the power to just KO members or shift momentum. Should it really have the ability to stay in for multiple turns to Substitute? I don't think it takes that long to change momentum. I also don't think 6% healing per turn in weather really adds anything to help CAP1 with its job at momentum changing, either. It's just a nice perk (which I understand was the reason behind mentioning this, but the point still stands).

    Here's where the red alarm goes off for me. When I see the term "staying power", I immediately shift my mind to read it as "wall", which is not what CAP1 should be striving for. Skarmory and Gliscor are known for staying in multiple turns in a row to either wall attacks completely or set up strategies and sweep. They are the exact opposite of "momentum", regardless of how vague the concept actually is. CAP1 should be focusing on shifting momentum the second it's switched in. Intimidate was chosen for that very reason, and I see no reason for Poison Heal, as it encourages the opposite.

    In my opinion? No, this is not 100% guaranteed to be broken, and there are ways of hindering the ability so that it doesn't get that broken. In truth? No one knows if it will be broken or not, and it's impossible to prove for or against its brokenness until we have concrete results. I personally wouldn't give this as a positive.

    However, we must also realize what will be made if this gets Poison Heal. Gliscor is exactly the opposite of a "momentum-based Pokemon". It got Poison Heal, but also was restricted greatly by having it be incompatible with Roost. To be frank...that's probably the best we'll do in terms of limiting movepool options, with the exception of disallowing moves that cause certain status effects. Now, let's compare Gliscor to CAP1, since while their goals are not very similar and their typing is off, it's important to understand the bulk of CAP1 compared to Gliscor and the role it plays currently.

    Gliscor:
    LO Salamence's Outrage: 61.0% - 72.0%
    Leftovers Gengar's Shadow Ball: 46.9% - 55.4%

    CAP1:
    LO Salamence's Outrage (not factoring in Intimidate since its PH): 66.7% - 79.7%
    Leftovers Gengar's Shadow Ball: 38.4% - 45.2%

    In conclusion, that means that Gliscor is taking just 5.7% less damage from this neutral Physical attacks, while CAP is taking 8.5% less damage from this neutral Special attack. They are slightly similar, yes, which is my point: what is going to stop CAP1 from simply becoming a Special-oriented Gliscor? It has similar Physical bulk, and better overall bulk. It might have its moves restricted, but it will still be able to tank just as well with a 12.5% health increase per turn, combined with a *likely* Protect. There's nothing right now that's telling me that it won't just turn into a Gliscor-like Pokemon, no matter how many moves you ban from it. Which, by the way, I feel too many banning of moves would simply mean that we're just trying to make excuses for Poison Heal to work.

    This ties in to the "staying power" post. Why do we want CAP1 to constantly stay in and become a wall? How does that gain momentum? It instead creates or loses no momentum whatsoever. We don't want this thing to be staying in for 5-7 turns and walling things to no end while healing 12.5% every turn. It'll just be another Gliscor / Skarmory.

    In response to the last part about the relegation...is there really a reason why CAP1 needs to have two amazing abilities so that they balance each other out? Intimidate already does an outstanding job at what it does, and IMO abilities like this promote the opposite of what we're aiming for. We need to find an ability that compliments Intimidate's goal, not encourage a playstyle opposite of it. No matter what we do, there will always be a dominant ability and a major set (unless we were to make this like Salamence and unpredictable, which is not what we're aiming for).

    A fair compromise would be something like Overcoat, which has all the perks of weather immunity (that means Leftovers damage in weather) minus unnecessary status immunity and staying power of 12.5% healing.

    I think that in order for me to accept Poison Heal for CAP1, there needs to be proof that it's not going to end up as a Gliscor-esque wall. The typing and stats already point towards this, and we can only limit movepools so much before simply just making up excuses to fit an ability.
  24. Gasoline

    Gasoline

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    I think Regenerator is just about one of the best options here in my opinion. It allows the CAP to switch out if it is severely threatened and come back in later with more hp to take hits, greatly changing momentum. Even if it is only a, what? 1/3 gain of hp or something? 33% if im correct?, its still useful as fighting/flying really needs the hp gain if its gonna deal with certain fighting types and whatnot.
  25. bubbly

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    Poison Heal I really do think would be broken without some pretty serious movepool restrictions due to DW. I agree with most of what DarkSlay said, apart from the bit about status. If we gave it Taunt it would be less of an issue, but as it stands, being paralysed or poisoned would severely limit its ability to force switches and fulfil the concept.
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