CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 9 - (Sprite Submissions)

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DougJustDoug

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I'm a little surprised that the CAP project has been around for almost 4 years, and we've never had a problem like this before.

Actually, we did have a problem like this on the first CAP 1, when some well-intentioned participants thought our "sprite competition" was an appropriate place to make fusions of existing ingame sprites and recolored the whole thing to look like Syclant's design colors. That was not something that we wanted to encourage, because this is a scratch spriting competition. In fact, read Rule 8 in the OP. Although the context of that rule mentions fusions, it clearly says, "All sprites must be scratch sprites."

This is, and always has been, a competition for scratch spriting. Pixeling over another artist's drawing is NOT scratch -- and every spriter knows that. Yes, pixel-overs are regularly done in spriting threads and projects in Smeargle's Studio. In fact, just look at my current avatar to the left. That is a straight lift of the Sugimori art for Glalie. I think I did a nice job on the sprite, if I do say so myself, but it's not a scratch sprite. Ken Sugimori is the artist of that, and I just traced over it. Did it take a lot of work to make that Glalie sprite? Absofuckinglutely it did. I spent far more time on that thing than most people would probably imagine. I also think you'd be hard-pressed to find many spriters capable of rendering that as well as I did. But is it an original scratch sprite? No, it's not. It's a good pixel-over. I did it for the Amethyst project, and I'm very proud of my contribution there. Amethyst participants regularly take pokemon art by other artists, and pixel over it. In fact, I'd say the vast majority of Amethyst sprites are done that way. But this isn't the Amethyst project. This is a spriting competition, where we determine who makes the best scratch sprite for our chosen design.

We've never really had to emphasize the whole "SCRATCH" aspect of this contest over the past ten CAP projects. Yes, I'm pretty sure many people have done pixel-overs in the past, and we didn't disqualify them or even post criticisms of the practice. Usually because the pixel-overs didn't get much support. But, in this case, many people have be mentioning the pixel-overs as being amongst the best in this thread. Some participants are openly admitting to tracing Cartoon's drawings, and even use their faithful tracing as a defense to criticism of the sprite. Basically saying, "No my sprite isn't bad -- I traced over Cartoon's drawing perfectly!"

Also, there have been several participants in this thread who have complimented Sleet on his creativity in rendering a back sprite that shows Tomohawk as a hulking figure whose wings and feathers look like a cloak of sorts. Obviously these people have not bothered to look at Cartoons supporting art links in the OP, because Sleet's backsprite is a direct pixel-over of Cartoons support pic. As an artist, yeah it's a little grating to see someone getting praise for an innovation (ie. hulking cloak-like pose) that is a direct tracing of another artist's work. I realize it's not Sleet's fault that some commenters aren't looking at the supporting artwork. It's not like Sleet is obligated to say "Sorry, please don't compliment my backsprite. I copied this from Cartoons' support art, which you obviously have not seen and are mistakently attributing to my creativity." That's ridiculous to lay it on Sleet. He did nothing wrong.

We have not had to enforce the "scratch spriting rule" in three years, and I don't think we need to start doing so on this CAP. But, I will concur that if someone is tracing another artists' work -- then the result cannot be considered to be an original creation of the submitter. It may be good, it may be amazing looking -- but it's not an original creative work. And to allow copied or traced works to be submitted and entered side-by-side with other genuinely original creations, that's not something we should encourage. The sprite competition is as much about the process of evaluating contestant spriters, as it is about getting a sprite that the community likes. If we are going to have a competition of spriters, then you cannot equate tracing with scratching. It's not the same thing AT ALL.

One last note on using the original artist's design -- there is a difference between opting to use the original artist's POSE and tracing the original artist's artwork. Many past CAP spriters (even winners) have used the original artist's design pose (or support art poses), but they make a scratch sprite. Maybe some of the non-artists reading and commenting in this thread can't tell the difference between a scratch sprite of the original pose, and a pixel-over of the original art -- but any good spriter can tell the difference. If any of you are thinking, "Whatever Doug, you can't enforce the distinction between the two." Yes, you can. Quite easily, in fact.

I have been irked that we are having this issue on this CAP. I haven't been mad at Sleet, or any of the other pixel-over submissions. They are making the best sprites they can, using the tools they have available to do so. And I can assure you that they are putting a lot of time and effort into their work. But I don't want CAP spriting to become a pixel-over competition. If that's what we want to do, then let's open the door to all the fusion aficionados in the Super-spriting thread too. Because they work hard on their stuff, and a lot of their stuff looks very cool. But, it's not scratch spriting. It not even in the same league as scratch spriting. For those of you unaware of how to sprite, scratch spriting takes considerably more talent, expertise, and effort than fusions or tracings. It's not even close to the same thing.
 
Did I miss something? It seems as if all of this negativity came from absolutely nowhere.
See:

Now I've got to mention something. We have an unprecedented amount of pixel overs in this thread, altered or not. Sleet's front and back, Darthvader's and Mektar's all trace over the concept art. This is not a practice I want to see spreading around in a sprite competition. It's not against the rules and people are free to vote for them if they want to but honestly I feel that people who do this should not get credit for it. They are more cartoon's sprites than anyone elses. In addition it's not exactly in the spirit of the competition. Let actually put some proper effort into it guys! I want to see a wide choice of new and exciting poses!
On-topic:

I really like your sprite, Wyverii, but the front sprite looks a bit "squished" and the back sprite's tail feathers look a bit too long.

EDIT:
Wow, Doug, that was sorta harsh. It kinda seemed like you were insulting Sleet, but doing it subtly enough that no one would call you out on it. :/
 
First of all, allow me to express my pleasure towards Wyverii's sprite. To be honest, I have not voted her in the last CAPs :-P But this time she made a pretty damn good job in my opinion, I like especially how vivid the sprites looks compared to other ones by virtue of a "stronger" outline (dunno if that's the correct technical term), let alone the original and dynamic pose. This is probably going to rival Stratagem as far as Wyv's favourite sprites of mine go. (Too bad I will probably not be around for the poll stage, at least not in the first stage. Be sure to reach the final poll and I'll support you Wyv!)

Although it's admittendly more off-topic, though, allow me to answer GMLW about his comment to Doug's post. I'm not a professional artist, so I can't attest to the truth of DJD's observations - heck, I would not be able to tell the difference between a same-pose scratch work and a trace myself. But putting aside for a moment the fact I trust his judge in this area, I dislike how you judge his post. Criticizing and insulting are not the same thing, no matter how you look at them. So please let's not throw around lightly such important accusations when the other part has done nothing wrong.
 
I am NOT creative or artistic, so I don't have a submission. However, I think one thing is that B/W sprites are normally not very actiony, so It should likely just be standing, or maybe hovering at a very plain pose.
 
Doug said:
Also, there have been several participants in this thread who have complimented Sleet on his creativity in rendering a back sprite that shows Tomohawk as a hulking figure whose wings and feathers look like a cloak of sorts. Obviously these people have not bothered to look at Cartoons supporting art links in the OP, because Sleet's backsprite is a direct pixel-over of Cartoons support pic. As an artist, yeah it's a little grating to see someone getting praise for an innovation (ie. hulking cloak-like pose) that is a direct tracing of another artist's work. I realize it's not Sleet's fault that some commenters aren't looking at the supporting artwork. It's not like Sleet is obligated to say "Sorry, please don't compliment my backsprite. I copied this from Cartoons' support art, which you obviously have not seen and are mistakently attributing to my creativity." That's ridiculous to lay it on Sleet. He did nothing wrong.
As someone who complimented Sleet, I thought I should explain that I was aware of Cartoons! depiction of that pose (Sleet pointedly stated that it was based off of the artwork in his first post, so I think its unfair to say no one "bothered to look". And he certainly can't be blamed for it), but I honestly hadn't even contemplated the possibility of pixel-overs. I'm sure others were similarly unaware, blame it on a lack of knowledge about spriting. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Wyv and Doug.

On a relevant note, I still think that Cartoons made a very interesting pose that could be used for a back sprite, and I would be interested in seeing a scratched interpretation of the pose. I'd hate to see such a nice pose go to waste because of a fear of plagiarism.
 

DougJustDoug

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Here's a front sprite I've been working on:



I wanted a flying pose that has a little pop, but not an outright action pose. There's a few things I still don't like about this one, but I wanted to get some feedback here before I tinker with it further.
 
DJD - the left leg (his right) looks kinda funny and the head is kinda small. also something I have said before: I think the arm claws add a lot of character to the design that separates it from being just a weird bird, it would be cool if they were more prominent. I also want to see a pose where it is down on three limbs holding up one of it's claws for a swipe.
 
Wow, a lot seems to have happened since I posted. Regardless, I began a sprite:



It's still pretty rough, but I've got other work to do right now so I figure I'll get a bit of critique on it anyway. Although I've done pixel art in the past, I've never done pokémon style before, so I'm still getting used to the shading.

I decided to go for a more neutral standing pose because 1) I feel that's more in line with the sprites of this generation, and 2) Flying poses cause huge size problems, due to outspread wings. This is why almost every single "in-flight" pokémon sprite has wings raised at a really steep angle (ex. pidgeot, fearow, articuno, braviary, &c). I didn't want to have to compromise with the wings.

Anyway, some deviations: I made him a bit more muted compared to the original since I find the original colors a little overpowering for sprite work. Instead I took my palette from existing pokémon. I also slightly shortened his feet to bring him again more in line with pokémon style. The feather-ear-thing has a notch like in one of the earlier concepts which I'm unsure if I like or not. His tail isn't visible because I'm planning on putting it in the backsprite.

Suggestions welcomed, &c.
 
EDIT: Nvm.

...While I feel that Sleet should flesh his work out, I'm also finding DV317's sprite to be just as good, with the distinct advantage of not being a pixelover.
 
DJD: I really like the tail and the wings, but the feet look bizarre and the head seems too small. I would try and shrink the wingspan a bit and make the head bigger.

Wekhter: Yours is my favorite right now, but you need to move it's pupil so it's looking towards the opponent. The coloration is perfect, but the toes looks a little off right now as well.
 
Is this any better?

Comments?
Looks too orange IMO, and to me, the backsprite apears to be leaning too far forward to be the same pose. But that's really good.




Shaded, shiny, C&C please.
Like the standing pose there, though I think the legs and tail are a bit too "thick" - also, Add the "bird-like" pre-tail feathers (look at Wyverii's backsprite to see what I mean) to complete the image. Other than that. Good job! I think you're the first shiny poster (I haven't seen a shiny sprite yet...)



If anyone cares.
Like sunt's one, I think this is a bit too "orange" - Darken the main colours please.

Love the Idea of the pose though. It actually looks pretty good.
 
New Sprite

Hi everyone...
I know this is a little late for my first sprite but please bare with me.
This is my first ever submission of a sprite to Smogon CAP so I hope you enjoy

I know, his foot is a little messed up and i couldn't find a good shading color for the brown wings but questions, comments and any criticism would be incredibly helpful. I've started work on the back sprite for gryphonmon (is that how you spell it?) and am very excited to be in the sprite submission.

Anyways please leave questions, comments and criticism
 
Wow, a lot seems to have happened since I posted. Regardless, I began a sprite:



It's still pretty rough, but I've got other work to do right now so I figure I'll get a bit of critique on it anyway. Although I've done pixel art in the past, I've never done pokémon style before, so I'm still getting used to the shading.
Wow! Wekhter, that sprite looks awesome! I especially love the way you drew its beak. I do have a few suggestions, however:

1. Make the hand (paw?) a little bit bigger.
2. Add in the tail somewhere. I think it would look cool if it was arched over Tomohawk's back, but maybe that's a bit too dynamic?
3. The feather's near the neck should be trimmed down a little bit, in my opinion. They're obscuring Tomohawk's mouth and purple war paint.
4. The white feathers on the edges of the wings should be a little wider.
5. In Cartoons!'s original drawing, there's only one feather sticking out of the head. You gave your sprite too. I'm honestly not sure which I prefer, and I know it's a relatively minor issue. I just wanted to let you know in case you did it by accident.
6. Something about the right foot looks a little off. It's too rounded...almost looks like a tentacle. I'm sure you'll be able to fix that easily.




Shaded, shiny, C&C please.
Another great entry! The main issue with this one is the wings. They're too small in relation to the head and beak, and if the right one was unfolded it would be twice as big as the left! That's another thing, actually...I'm not sure about the way you've posed it. Birds can't contort their wings like that, so if Tomohawk was trying to impersonate an eagle, why would it pose like that?

Edit: One more thing...the tail isn't curled quite enough. God, I am such a nitpicker...but if you care, you might want to fix it.




If anyone cares.
I certainly care...this is a great sprite! I think you should change the expression, though. He looks like he's leering. Also, the wings are too orange, and the nose should be pointing outward from the face instead of diagonally upward.
 
There are a lot of cool, new sprites, but many of them suffer the same problem: they're too big! CAP1 shouldn't be filling the entire canvas, because he's not as huge as Zekrom or Reshiram. I'd love it if all of the new and cool entries like Energy Storm's, Bynine's, and wekhter's were shrunken down a bit to make CAP1 look more realistically sized in relation to other BW Pokemon. That'd be great. For reference, I think Wyverii's sprite is the ideal size for CAP1 within a 96x96 canvas.

Also, wekhter, yours is great, but you don't really have CAP1 facing the right direction. His gaze should be directed to the bottom-left of the canvas like all other Pokemon so that he's looking at the opposing Pokemon sprite. This is a minor, but crucial, detail.
 
Here's a front sprite I've been working on:



I wanted a flying pose that has a little pop, but not an outright action pose. There's a few things I still don't like about this one, but I wanted to get some feedback here before I tinker with it further.
This is great! However, a couple of criticisms;
The legs. With the way the CAP is facing, it feels like they should be facing the same way as the CAP's head is looking. This is made more prominent by the chest feathers, as they are also facing that way. Having the legs face to the right while everything else faces left just looks... odd. I can see what you were trying to get at, with the idea that the CAP is twisting his body underneath the chest feathers, but it still looks wierd. Most simple solution is to just make the legs face to the right. On the note of the legs, the right foot looks odd, a bit thick. I see what you were trying to do there proportionwise but if you were to make it just a tad skinnier and shift its feet claws up a pixel or two it'd be fine. That's about it from me!
 
I purposely tilted the head up and did the shading so he looked intimidating...maybe too so?
I totally understand where you're coming from. I think the main issue is that the eyes are a bit too wide. It makes him look...hungry? Creepy? I don't know exactly how to describe it...it kind of reminds me of Gengar, particularly his Gold version sprite. I know this doesn't make much sense, but I think you can make Tomohawk's expression determined and intimidating without making it scary. Excadrill would be a good example of what I'm talking about.

As for tilting the head, my only argument against that has to do with flavor. Tomohawk is trying to fool the opponent into thinking its an eagle, so why would it pose in a way that reveals its true face under the feathered hood? However, I have to admit that he looks pretty awesome in that pose, so keep it if you'd like.


Hi everyone...
I know this is a little late for my first sprite but please bare with me.
This is my first ever submission of a sprite to Smogon CAP so I hope you enjoy

I know, his foot is a little messed up and i couldn't find a good shading color for the brown wings but questions, comments and any criticism would be incredibly helpful. I've started work on the back sprite for gryphonmon (is that how you spell it?) and am very excited to be in the sprite submission.

Anyways please leave questions, comments and criticism
I think your pose is a bit too dynamic for a Generation 5 sprite. He looks like he's pouncing. If you made his legs shorter and reposed them so that they're trailing behind him as he flies, this would go a long way towards solving this problem.

The color scheme is too dark (particularly on the face), but I see you recognized that even as you were posting it, and I imagine you'll have a recolor done soon. I can't wait to see it!

My final suggestion would be too make the beak-shaped hood a little larger.
 


Incorperated some changes, mostly on the back. At the moment I'm very happy with the front and how that's evolved over time. For reference this was how the front originally looked before feedback:



At the moment I think the tail could be shifted around since the foreshortening gives it a little leeway on where it sits on the back. Some changes occurred on the feathered tail to make it stiffer on both sprites. The back fluff was changed around a bit. The joins between the feather tail and wings are now more cape-like. The diamond marking on the right wing has been moved to match better with the other wing. The outline on everything has also has some tweaks which allows it to sit comfortably on all sorts of backgrounds. It should retain it's pop regardless. I recommend all sprite artists to do this since the sprite will not be displayed on just a white background, especially those with lighter outlines which may clash with darker backgrounds. It's good practice too and tends to improve overall sprite quality! Much thanks to the people who've given good feedback to both myself and the other artists and I hope to see more coming!

 
Here's a front sprite I've been working on:



I wanted a flying pose that has a little pop, but not an outright action pose. There's a few things I still don't like about this one, but I wanted to get some feedback here before I tinker with it further.
Assuming you're going to make other little improvements of your own, I would say the main thing to do about this one is to give it a black outline. Few if any in-game sprites have outlines with any color but black, notable exceptions being guys like Rotom that are outlined in some sort of energy or something. I think a black outline would help this one look more like a legit in-game sprite. (And this applies to a lot of the sprites in the thread, actually-- darker outlines would help, I think.)



If anyone cares.


Shaded, shiny, C&C please.
I'm quoting these together because I have essentially the same criticisim for both of them. First off, I think these are great sprites, each with a very animated and personality-filled pose, and both are full of detail. The problem? I didn't think I'd say it, but they're TOO detailed (as if that were a bad thing LOL)-- too big. As awesome as these are, RD is right, they need to be smaller to match their in-game context. I would also agree that Wyverii's sprite size is a good size to shoot for; I imagine this guy being pretty small, actually, say about the size of Scrafty maybe. Not that large at all. Maybe it's just my take on it but for some reason he seems like he's not designed to be that large.
EDIT: Also I totally have to disagree with McLuvdisc regarding Energy Storm's sprite, I totally like the expression and don't think there's anything wrong with it at all. In fact my only concern there would be whether or not you can retain it while making it smaller, LOL.

Also I want to throw out there that I really like Bynine's shiny color palette. Other spriters making shiny forms-- PLEASE steal it.
....as long as he's okay with that of course. But yeah, I like the shiny colors.
 
Sorry for the double post but I forgot something

This would be the female version

Logic: Male lions have large manes whereas females do not... so I removed the entire frontal part of the fluff.
The female is on the left and the male on the right... added for contrast
 
So... should I ditch my Pixel-over and try a scratch sprite? Or would it be OK if I gave Cartoons! half credit for it?
 
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