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Carnivine (QC 3/3) [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Lasagne, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    [​IMG]
    is flying plant

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    [Overview]
    • outclassed by pretty much everything (sawsbuck, leafeon etc)
    • no reliable recovery and bad bulk means it dies quickly
    • just fast enough to outspeed a couple of key pokemon, but still very slow
    • bad typing leaves it vulnerable to loads of top tier threats (jynx, scolipede, charizard, flying types etc)
    • too slow and frail to really accomplish anything
    • has levitate which gives it a useful immunity, and makes it immune to spikes and tspikes which is cool
    • no priority :[

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Power Whip
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Return
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • deals out a good amount of damage when attack is boosted
    • really slow for a sweeper and has bad defenses so cant take hits well
    • swords dance boosts mediocre attack so it can actually hit decently hard
    • power whip is primary powerful stab, though its incaccurate
    • sleep powder puts stuff to sleep so you can set up easier. also differentiates carnivine from leafeon and sawsbuck
    • return is good neutral coverage, but the lack of SE coverage makes it not worth using over nature power the majority of the time

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • good teammates include stuff that beats grass and flying types, such as jynx
    • also carnivine appreciates a free switch in, so a slow pivot such as probopass or musharna can act as a good teammate
    • trick room support can be useful, as it lets carnivine outslow the majority of pokemon. you would also run 0 speed evs and a brave nature
    • while the evs may seem simple and not thought out, having 252 speed evs with a jolly nature lets you outrun max speed adamant golurk
    • bullet seed can be ran to beat sturdy and focus sash users such as golem and kadabra
    • sash is the item so that carnivine can actually take a hit from one thing, and is made more effective by its immunity to spikes and toxic spikes

    [Other Options]
    • carnivine can utilise sleep powder + stun spore to make a dual powder set
    • carnivine can go special with its decent special attack, but it lacks a way to boost its special attack outside of growth, so is not as effective as a physical set
    • a mixed set could be worth using, however, as it allows carnivine to hit decently hard on defenses, and in the sun growth gives the equivalent of a swords dance + nasty plot, but swords dance is better becuase its not reliant on weather, and is generally more reliable (as reliable as you can get with carnivine, anyway)
    • subseed is a classic option for grass types, but doesnt work very well with carnivine due to its low speed and lack of way to beat the grass types immune to leech seed. its bad
    • synthesis can heal carnivine, but its too frail to make proper use of the extra health and cant afford to waste a turn healing
    • crunch is an option for a coverage move, but doesnt provide much coverage outside of beating musharna, since other psychic and ghost-types either outspeed and ohko or are beaten by another move that carnivine carries

    [Checks and Counters]
    • any pokemon with a decently powerful super effective move can probably ohko carnivine thanks to its pitiful bulk, and obviously it helps if its stab
    • any neutral strong stab move will also do a lot of damage, such as exeggutor's psychic or any fighting type's close combat / drain punch
    • steel-types resist both power whip and return, so they make good checks
    • both of charizards stabs easily destroy carnivine, though it is ohkod by a +2 return after stealth rock
    • beaten by physically defensive pokemon like misdreavus, mandibuzz, or torkoal who can burn or just wall it to death

    [Overview]

    <p>Carnivine is one of many physical Grass-types in NU, but unfortunately, it is outclassed by the majority of these Grass-types, such as Sawsbuck and Leafeon. The combination of bad bulk and lack of reliable recovery reduces Carnivine's longevity severely, so it can't take many hits before falling. Carnivine is too slow to be effective as a sweeper, but its Speed does allow it to barely outspeed a couple of key threats, such as Golurk and Golem. As it is so slow and frail, Carnivine rarely has time to accomplish anything. Its typing is bad, as pure Grass leaves it vulnerable to many top tier threats, including Charizard and Pinsir. Not only does it lack reliable recovery, but it also lacks good coverage moves and has a generally lackluster movepool. It doesn't have access to any priority moves or useful coverage moves, which is a big blow for any usefulness Carnivine may have. However, Levitate is a useful ability, as it provides an immunity to Ground-types and lets Carnivine freely switch in while Spikes and Toxic Spikes are down without any drawbacks. Moreover, Carnivine does have access to Sleep Powder, which differentiates it somewhat from the other physical Grass-types in the tier.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Power Whip
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Return
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With its Attack boosted, Carnivine can do a good amount of damage, but due to its low defenses and Speed, it often doesn't get a chance to set up. Therefore, this is the best and only remotely viable set Carnivine can run. Swords Dance is used to boost Carnivine's mediocre Attack stat so that it can hit decently hard. Power Whip is the primary STAB option, although it's inaccurate, it's strong, which helps make up for Carnivine's low Attack. Sleep Powder can put an opposing Pokemon to sleep if it hits, which can give Carnivine an opportunity to set up a Swords Dance. Return provides good neutral coverage with Power Whip, but no super effective coverage unfortunately. It is still the best choice however, since Carnivine doesn't have access to any useful coverage options.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Focus Sash is the chosen item to ensure that Carnivine can take at least one hit from something, and the item's use is made more effective by Carnivine's immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Leading with Carnivine or having a Pokemon that can keep Stealth Rock off the field is the best way to keep Carnivine's Focus Sash intact. Good teammates for Carnivine include Pokemon that beat bulky Steel- and Poison-types, such as Seismitoad, Golurk and Golem. Grass-, Flying-, and Fire-types are also a nuisance, so Pokemon such as Samurott and Ludicolo are useful teammates. Carnivine really likes to have a free switch due to its sub-par defenses. Slow pivots such as Probopass and Musharna can be very helpful for this, as they take damage before using Volt Switch or Baton Pass respectively, causing Carnivine to take no damage. While the EVs may seem simple, having 252 EVs in Speed along with a Jolly nature lets you outspeed max Speed Adamant Golurk so you can get in a Power Whip before it attacks you. Trick Room support could be used alongside Carnivine, as Carnivine is slow, so it can "outspeed" the majority of Pokemon in NU. 0 Speed EVs and IVs with a Brave nature should also be used when used with Trick Room. Bullet Seed can be run to beat Sturdy and Focus Sash users such as Kadabra and Golem, respectively. Carnivine can also choose to run a bulkier spread without Focus Sash, which is equally as mediocre as Carnivine with Focus Sash.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Carnivine can choose to utilize Sleep Powder in conjunction with Stun Spore to create a dual powder set, but this is largely outclassed by other Pokemon such as Butterfree, which is faster and has access to U-turn. A special set is an option for Carnivine, as it has a decent Special Attack stat, only slightly lower than its Attack stat. However, it has no way to boost its Special Attack outside of Growth, and no special coverage moves outside of Sludge Bomb, so it is not as effective as a physical set. Carnivine can opt for a mixed set to surprise its usual counters, and when used in the sun can get a free +2 in both Attack and Special Attack from Growth. The purely physical set is usually better because it doesn't rely on weather, and is more reliable as a whole. Life Orb can be used as the item for extra power, but Carnivine is OHKOed by too much, and requires a Focus Sash to work at its full potential. Carnivine also has the option of running a Substitute + Leech Seed set, like many other Grass-types. It is not very effective, however, as Carnivine has low Speed and no way of dealing with opposing Grass-types that are immune to Leech Seed. Synthesis can be used to heal Carnivine, but it is too frail to make effective use of the extra health, and generally can't afford to waste a turn healing. Crunch is an interesting coverage move that can be used to hit Psychic- and Ghost-types, but Power Whip will usually hit harder, so only use Crunch if you really don't want to rely on Power Whip's accuracy.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Any decently powerful super effective move will most likely OHKO Carnivine thanks to its low defenses, and that chance is further increased if the move is boosted by STAB. Any strong STAB move in general will do a lot of damage, such as any Fighting-type's Close Combat / Drain Punch, or a Psychic-type's Psychic. Steel-types resist both Power Whip and Return, and can deal with Carnivine easily, especially considering the fact that they have high defense and can take a hit or two with ease. Charizard can OHKO Carnivine with either of its STAB attacks, though it is OHKOed by a +2 Return after Stealth Rock. Physically defensive Pokemon such as Misdreavus, Mandibuzz, and Torkoal can take any hit Carnivine wants to throw at them and burn Carnivine to put a full stop to its potential sweep or simply wall it to death. Carnivine also relies on Sleep Powder to be even mildly threatening, so Sap Sipper Miltank and Sawsbuck do well as they can absorb both Sleep Powder and Power Whip, while Miltank doesn't take much damage from Return either.</p>
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  2. scorpdestroyer

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    I think Sleep Powder deserves a slash over Nature Power at least, because it allows Carnivine to set up given that its bulk is really bad, and it allows it to put one opponent out of commission which is good considering it's Carnivine. It's also something to set it apart from Leafeon and Sawsbuck.
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  3. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    i put sleep powder as the secondary slash after nature power, as i feel the coverage is needed, though i wouldnt be averse to making sleep powder the primary slash if enough people back it
  4. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    ok skeleton done
  5. FLCL

    FLCL
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    like you said sleep powder is what makes carnivine different from sawsbuck or leafeon so i would make it the first slash over nature power
  6. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast DOES THIS LOOK LIKE THE FACE OF MERCY TO YOU!?!?
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    SD Carnivine pretty much sucks though, it can almost never get more than one kill since it's too slow, and even with Sleep Powder it's too slow to set up and attack before getting OHKOed back. One set I sort of messed around with was Sleep Powder / Stun Spore / Power Whip / filler @ Focus Sash, it can cripple some stuff early-game and OHKO - 2HKO most SR leads. With max Speed Jolly it outspeeds max Speed Adamant Golurk too, which is decently cool I guess. Idk just throwin it out for discussion, Carnivine's gonna suck no matter what it uses but SD is kinda garbage imo :/
  7. Soulgazer

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    I know we pretty much did that for Maractus and Torterra too, but Carnivine has access to Bullet Seed and outspeeds Golem by 1 point, so I'm sure it is worth mentionning (where? I don't know really). I also agree with Dat Blast: Swords Dance Carnivine sucks as it is too slow to even pull off a sweep, and doesn't have the bulk to take multiple hits.
  8. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    i would come on irc and discuss this, but i need to study and irc just distracts me :[
    so, should i talk about the dual powder set in OO, or make it a set alongside sd, or replace sd, or what?

    also i made sleep powder the primary slash

    edit: put dual powder in oo and made the nature jolly for the reasons dat blast stated
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  9. Soulgazer

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  10. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast DOES THIS LOOK LIKE THE FACE OF MERCY TO YOU!?!?
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    [Overview]
    • I'd remove these points, STAB Power Whip actually hits pretty hard even when unboosted. Just say how it's too slow and too frail to accomplish much of anything before dying.
    [SET]
    • Sleep Powder deserves its own slot, it's like the only reason to use Carnivine in the first place. Slash Nature Power and Return with each other, Nature Power should probably go first since it hurts Steels + Poisons harder. Plus Power Whip can still damage most Flyings + Grasses after a boost, except for Zard (who wrecks you) and kinda rare stuff like Golbat. It's decent enough for a second slash but its SE coverage sucks.
    • Sash should be the item imo, it's the only way Carnivine can really do some damage without getting destroyed right back.
    • Make sure to change up the SC accordingly.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Remove the last point since Sash is the item now.
    Implement pls Lasagne21
  11. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    implemented Dat Blast and also added a point in the overview mentioning spikes immunity since i forgot to add that yesterday after col49 reminded me

    edit: changed to a point about levitate in general
  12. Dat Blast

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    [Checks and Counters]
    +2 252 Atk Carnivine Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 226-267 (76.09 - 89.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • It OHKOes after SR though, so add that.
    • Replace the last point with physical walls like Missy, Mandibuzz, and Torkoal who can burn or just flat-out wall it.
    Do this and 2/3 Lasagne21
  13. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    oh yeah that point was from when it still had life orb

    k implemented, ill write this up soon and hopefully not john it like the other two
  14. Hollywood

    Hollywood she's thin, she's blonde, she says "wow" a lot
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  15. scorpdestroyer

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    ^ haha, that's a good one
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  16. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    I will get this done I promise x.x
    sg keep reminding me pls
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  17. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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  18. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    ok this week i will make some sort of progress on it, i promise
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  19. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    Yeah, Carnivine doesn't learn Nature Power until gen 6 :(
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  20. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    wait really fuck
    ok I'll take that out once I get on a computer then
  21. FLCL

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    qc reject 3/3 jk write this bitch
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  22. scorpdestroyer

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    I volunteer to take this over if las isn't interested

    wtf it's been like a month and a half I thought deadlines were strict
  23. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    why would deadlines be strict for a dead forum
    anyway I will get this done. Once I finish bakuman (with my new beats headphones!!!!!!!) I'm gonna get onto working on carnivine, promise
  24. Lasagne

    Lasagne "The light that stands out from the darkness"
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    I DID IT

    MUMMY ARE YOU PROUD
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  25. scorpdestroyer

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    HOLY SHIT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED

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