Cartridge Sleep Clause mechanics

So Cartridge Sleep clause will be programmed into Shoddy 2. This is supposed emulate what we believe Sleep Clause should do if it was enforced in the cartridge.

Encored Sleep Move, Effect Spore, Magic Coat, Sleep Talk (covers Psycho Shift), Assist, Metronome are all the ways (that I can think of) that force someone to break sleep clause. What we need is an ironclad rule for Colin to program that will be used in Shoddy 2.

Hip's definition was good, but I'd like to see what others think of it, or any flaws it has.

Hip's original Cartridge Sleep Clause definition said:
You lose if you put an enemy pokemon asleep with a move that specifically induces sleep, and an enemy pokemon you previously put asleep with a move that specifically induces sleep is still sleeping .
(Note: I will be deleting any posts arguing whether this clause should or should not be on Shoddy 2)
 

Aeolus

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To further stave off any arguing about classic clause vs. this new version, everyone be advised that both will be programmed into the simulator. Each tournament host will be able to choose which version will be in effect for their own tournament.

As the director of the Smogon Tournament and Smogon Tour, I've decided (after some cajoling) that this new clause will be in effect for those official venues... and by extension, the Standard Ladder.

I encourage everyone to put their best efforts into ironing out any sort of details or contingencies that should be considered in fashioning this clause since it will likely become a fixture of the standard competitive environment for some time.
 

Hipmonlee

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I'd kinda like it to be activated whenever whatever is blocked in stadium occurs. Just for consistency.

But I definitely wouldnt like effect spore to be counted.

Otherwise here are some moves and my thoughts on them:
Magic coat: legal
Metronome: legal
Assist: illegal
Sleeptalk: illegal
Encored sleep: illegal
Encored unavoidable sleep: illegal
Last pp sleep move:illegal

Have a nice day.
 
Encored Sleep Move, Effect Spore, Magic Coat, Sleep Talk (covers Psycho Shift), Assist, Metronome are all the ways (that I can think of) that force someone to break sleep clause. What we need is an ironclad rule for Colin to program that will be used in Shoddy 2.
So just for the sake of clarity, you're saying that if a sleep move is selected using one of those methods, and one of your opponent's Pokemon is already asleep, the move will fail? If that's the case, then an Arena Trapped choice'd sleep move can also force someone to break sleep clause.

I also wanted to say, Aeolus's first post makes me happy :)
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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So just for the sake of clarity, you're saying that if a sleep move is selected using one of those methods, and one of your opponent's Pokemon is already asleep, the move will fail? If that's the case, then an Arena Trapped choice'd sleep move can also force someone to break sleep clause.

I also wanted to say, Aeolus's first post makes me happy :)
It can't fail, since that isn't cartridge-possible mechanics. It simply wouldn't force someone to lose. Rather, it would punish the person attempting to force sleep clause by allowing 2 of their Pokemon to be put to sleep.
 
It can't fail, since that isn't cartridge-possible mechanics. It simply wouldn't force someone to lose. Rather, it would punish the person attempting to force sleep clause by allowing 2 of their Pokemon to be put to sleep.
Sleep Talk Psycho Shift is not forcing someone to break sleep clause. If what you just said were true, then Sleep Talk Psycho Shift would allow people to put multiple opponents to sleep. Same with Assist.

Edit: Actually, looking at what I quoted from RBG, every method of breaking sleep clause listed is not "forced" except for "Encored Sleep Move." The rest are all move/ability selection choices of the user who could potentially break sleep clause...
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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If you carry Sleep Talk and Psycho Shift, you do so knowing full well that Psycho Shift can pass Sleep, so it's intentional. Same with Assist and (sleep move)
 
If you carry Sleep Talk and Psycho Shift, you do so knowing full well that Psycho Shift can pass Sleep, so it's intentional. Same with Assist and (sleep move)
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't see why the opposing player should be punished by two of their Pokemon being put to sleep like you suggested in your earlier post. Which is also why my original question was asking if the move would just fail or not. Most of the things listed, like I said, are not "forced."
 
I have three things I want to say on this:

1) I suggest that the opponent of the person who breaks Sleep Clause on Shoddy be given the option of taking the win or not as soon as it is broken.

2) I suggest that if someone is entirely forced (as in they have no other option) to use a Sleep move then it shouldn't cause them to lose. Being forced into using a move that causes your opponent to fall asleep some of the time (excluding Accuracy of the moves; so this includes Sleep Talk, Psycho Shift, and Assist) should still cause a loss though I think, assuming they do in the first place (not Magic Coat or Metronome). My reasoning for this is that I don't want this to become a way to lose that gets exploited (I doubt it will be, but I can't foresee all strategies).

3) To me, it seems like the easiest way to phrase Sleep Clause is actually to list what breaks it and what doesn't. The current definition given in the OP is not the logical equivalent of what is being suggested in the rest of the thread by my definition of 'specifically' and I talked to Hipmonlee and he agreed it isn't a well thought out definition.

Note that these are all separate (and I would like them to be considered separately) and if you disagree with one please don't think that you're disagreeing with all of them!
 
I think if we are going to implement this new sleep clause (which I fully support), it should not be half-assed. In other words, any instance of breaking the sleep clause should result in a loss of the match. The only permissible exception should be an Encored sleep move paired with a trapper. The only reason I would even consider making this exception is because Wobbuffet can somewhat easily abuse this by holding a Lum/Chesto berry. Aside from that, I cannot foresee any circumstance where an opponent can guaranteedly force someone to break sleep clause. If there is such a strategy that none of us can fathom at the moment, then it will be easy to tweak the clause as needed when it is discovered (though I doubt it is possible).

Using a sleep move while holding a choice item? That's your own risky choice. Using Assist/Psycho Shift/Magic Coat after you have already put an opponent's Pokemon to sleep? That's your own risky choice. Choosing the ability Effect Spore, or to use the move Metronome(lol)? That's your own risky choice, and all of them should be punishable.
 

Hipmonlee

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You are essentially saying that effect spore should be almost completely unusable.

You could also argue its your own risky choice to sleep any pokemon while trapped.

But wording is important here, because it isnt half assed to say sleep clause applies to moves and not traits. It's just a different way of defining sleep clause.

But what I would really like to hear is an explanation of what sleep clause blocks in stadium..

Have a nice day.
 
You are essentially saying that effect spore should be almost completely unusable.

You could also argue its your own risky choice to sleep any pokemon while trapped.

But wording is important here, because it isnt half assed to say sleep clause applies to moves and not traits. It's just a different way of defining sleep clause.

But what I would really like to hear is an explanation of what sleep clause blocks in stadium..

Have a nice day.
There are no Pokemon who get Effect Spore that don't have secondary options. If you want to use Effect Spore, you are welcome to. Just keep in mind that it could lead to your loss. I mean, as harsh as it is, the fact of the matter is that if we are going to imitate in-cartridge play, then all of these things would be risky choices. You do make a good point about it being your own choice to use a sleep move while trapped against an Encore Pokemon. You've therefore convinced me that there should be no exceptions to the rule.
 

Hipmonlee

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I think you need to rephrase your argument, of course any breaking of the sleep clause will forfeit the match. The point here is to work out what entails breaking the sleep clause.

I mean is it too far to go from "magic coat is risking putting your opponent to sleep" to "pp wasting until they are forced to rest is risking putting your opponent to sleep"

I mean, if I was describing magic coat, it is a move that targets yourself that then may cause your opponent to put themselves to sleep. It seems to be the equivalent of rest.

Metronome I am struggling to distinguish from sleep talk, so perhaps that should be illegal. To be honest I dont expect anyone to give a damn.

There is no reason I can see that sleep clause has to cover traits and not just moves.

[edit] - @ glen: yes

Have a nice day.
 
There is no reason I can see that sleep clause has to cover traits and not just moves.

[edit] - @ glen: yes

Have a nice day.
my apologies in advance because i'm certain this argument has been made before, but it just seems to me that if we're going to go as far as to lessen competitive battling to whatever extent to enforce this kind of cart-adhering sleep clause (i mean really, has anybody in their history of playing pokemon really had a problem with our usual version of sleep clause?) it really would make 'sense' to just go all the way and emulate it perfectly, would it not? if my understanding of this is skewed and the vgc or whatever doesn't dq you for things like magic coat then ignore this, of course.
 

Hipmonlee

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If the vgc means video game cart? Then yeah, it doesnt dq you, but your opponent or an independent judge (IE shoddy ladder/tournament host) would.

We just need to work out the exact criteria the independent judge should use.

Have a nice day.
 
I personally think that it would be easier to just have a list of all the ways sleep clause can be broken. Going off the list Hip made, here is what I would classify as "breaking sleep clause"

Magic coat: legal (eh, could go either way on this one)
Metronome: illegal
Assist: illegal
Sleep Talk: illegal
Encored sleep: illegal
Encored unavoidable sleep: legal (i.e. you are trapped by dugtrio or mean look)
Trapped Choice Sleep: legal
Last pp sleep move:illegal
Effect Spore: Legal

Any move that you choose that has a chance of breaking sleep clause should count as breaking it. That is why I am iffy on Magic Coat, as it does preset the chance to sleep, but it all depends on what move they choose. Encore Trapped Sleep and Trapped Choice sleep moves are the only situation where the user has no ability to choose their next move, and effect spore is an ability which only activates when contact moves hit, and even then only sleeps 10% of the time, so I think that would be acceptable.
 
I still strongly believe that Trapped Choice Sleep and Encored Unavoidable Sleep should be illegal. The reason being that it is still the user's choice to do these things; there's nothing forced about it. True emulation should discourage risky strategies such as slapping Choice Scarf on a sleeper Pokemon. As for Encored sleep move, it is the user's responsibility to be aware of what can and cannot learn Encore, and to choose their move wisely. The same goes for Magic Coat: it is up to the user to know which Pokemon learn sleep inducing moves, and if you want to risk using Magic Coat on said Pokemon after you've already put one of your opponent's Pokemon to sleep, that's your choice.

As for distinguishing between moves and abilities for breaking sleep clause, I suppose I can see the legitimacy in that. I would be content with the wording of this new clause not including abilities. However, that brings up the question of whether or not Effect Spore would successfully be allowed to put multiple Pokemon to sleep, or if the ability will effectively shut off after one Pokemon is asleep already. I personally think the latter should be considered.

Finally, I just wanted to say that I'm not arguing this point to push my own battling agenda. I have probably abused Scarf Sleepers (Breloom and Roserade) more than anybody in this discussion, and I will have to practically scrap those teams. I just firmly believe that an accurate implementation of the game's mechanics is important for Shoddy battling.
 

obi

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However, that brings up the question of whether or not Effect Spore would successfully be allowed to put multiple Pokemon to sleep, or if the ability will effectively shut off after one Pokemon is asleep already. I personally think the latter should be considered.
That defeats the whole purpose of reworking the rules. It is impossible to shut off abilities in-game.
 
I also agree with RB Golbat's list, and I'm also pointing out that nobody responded to this (unless I missed someone's post):

1) I suggest that the opponent of the person who breaks Sleep Clause on Shoddy be given the option of taking the win or not as soon as it is broken.
This could also be implemented for Timed Battle if people agree with it.
 
That defeats the whole purpose of reworking the rules. It is impossible to shut off abilities in-game.
Then are you suggesting that if someone uses the ability, Effect Spore, they have a chance of putting more than one Pokemon to sleep with no repercussions? If that's the case, I'd rather we add abilities to the list of illegals, discouraging the use of such an ability.

I'm also now confused about what is being suggested in general with the list of legal and illegal ways to break sleep clause. Are we saying that if someone puts two Pokemon to sleep via being trap-encored (one of the methods listed as legal), then they are allowed to put two Pokemon to sleep? I was just assuming the second sleep move would fail like it currently does. If the former is the case, I do not agree with it at all. Like I said, if you're playing risky enough to put two opponents to sleep in any way, you should be prepared to face the consequences.
 

obi

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The moves would not fail. The whole point of this change is that we are only making rules that can be enforced in a cartridge battle. It's impossible for the move to fail, and thus the only option are to give someone the loss (the equivalent of a DQ in a tournament) or to do nothing. I really don't care too much where we draw the line. I'm mostly in favor of a strict rule set (Encore + trap + sleep move forcing you to put multiple Pokemon to sleep? Oh well), but it's not a strong preference.
 

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