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CB Tyranitar (EV spread discussion)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by alexwolf, May 7, 2012.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    (Approved by Bloo)

    So this is the CB Tyranitar that is on site right now:

    Tyranitar
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
    ability: Sandstream
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower / Aqua Tail

    The Atk and Spe evs are just fine and you all know their purpose. My problem is with HP evs. I was wondering why these 156 remaining evs go into HP and not to SpD, since CBTar's main job is to trap certain threats (special attackers mainly), while also hitting very hard when he forces something out, since he is a bit slow to outspeed stuff usually. And guess what it normally forces out? Yeah you guessed it special attackers. Even without the HP evs, CBtar can take any physical hit that it should (meaning weak or resisted ones), while with the extra SpD he can better handle a multitude of special attackers. For a matter of fact:


    • Specs Latios DM vs 156 HP Ttar: 60.26 - 71.05%, sure 2hko with SR, and 37.89% without
    • ...same vs 156 SpD Ttar: 57.47 - 68.03%, 6.64% chance to 2hko without SR, and 98.83% to 2hko with SR

    • Specs Latios Surf vs 156 HP Ttar: 54.73 - 64.73%
    • ...same vs 156 SpD Ttar: 52.78 - 62.17%, nothing to really see here except that that Ttar with the evs in SpD can trap Latios even at 52.78%-54.72%, while Ttar with the evs in HP cannot

    With the evs in HP you are 2hkoed by Giga Drain 37.89% of the time after SR, while with the evs in SpD you are 2hkoed only 9.38% of the time.


    • Standard LO Starmie's HP vs 156 HP Ttar: 75.78 - 88.94%, sure OHKO after 2 SR rounds, and has a 6.25% chance to OHKO after 1 round of SR
    • ...same vs 156 SpD Ttar: 72.14 - 85.04%, never ohko'ed after SR and has a 25% chance to survive after 2 SR rounds


    • CM Reuniclus' FB vs 156 HP Ttar: 73.68 - 87.36%, 87.5% chance to OHKO after 2 SR rounds
    • ...same vs 156 SpD Ttar: 70.38 - 83.28%, 62.5% chance to OHKO after 2 SR rounds


    • Bulky QD Volcarona's Bug Buzz at +1 vs 156 HP Ttar: 66.84 - 78.94%, 31.25% chance to OHKO after 2 SR rounds
    • ...same vs 156 SpD Ttar: 63.92 - 75.65%, 6.25% chance to OHKO after 2 SR rounds


    • Chesto Rest Volcarona's Bug Buzz at +1 vs 156 HP Ttar: 87.36 - 103.15%, 25% chance to OHKO without SR, and 93.75% to OHKO after SR
    • ...same vs 156 SpD Ttar: 84.45 - 99.12%, always survives without SR, and has a 25% chance to survive after SR


    Anyone that wants to see the discussion with jc104, can go to the Small Subjective Changes thread...

    So, QC team, and all you people, what do you think?
  2. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    The calcs only seem to have a ~3% drop, so is it worth it to lose all of your physical bulk too?
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    What physical bulk are you talking of? Try not to be so vague. If there is a 2hko or a ohko from a physical attack that Ttar should take, then pls mention it. Otherwise i will assume that there isn't any physical attack that Ttar takes better with the extra HP evs. I already gave examples of why increasing your special bulk, even for a little, is good, so if someone is against it, he should give appropriate evidence.
  4. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    The difference in physical bulk is about 11%, for those that don't want to bother looking at the small changes thread. I'd quite like it if you could put this in the OP, rather than leaving your argument so totally one-sided.

    Having used Tyranitar quite a lot recently, I find myself taking physical attacks reasonably often. Any choice-locked physical attacker is potetial Pursuit-bait for Tyranitar (I've got logs of Tyranitar trapping stuff like Gliscor and Terrakion), and the physical bulk can also be highly helpful in a late-game scenario. Tyranitar is pretty damn bulky on the physical side; it's just the weaknesses that let it down.

    As I said in the other thread, it is always possible to engineer situations where a 3% difference appears crucial, but ultimately these situations are fairly unlikely to arise.
  5. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    Well you see I don't exactly mean OHKO's and 2HKO's. I mean that Tyranitar will most likely be switching in and out throughout the game, like most Choiced Pokemon. Between the residual damage he takes and this newfound, profound weakness for things physical, even just an 11% drop, will cause him to take more damage in the long run. It's why we put EVs in HP instead of polarizing a stat (under normal circumstances), because mixed bulk usually provides the best results. I don't think taking 3% less from any special attack actually warrants changes to the main spread, but I defiantly think this should be an AC option.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    That's why i said where the whole discussion can be found jc. Also since you are going to Pursuit trap a physical attacker locked into a wrong move i assume that the attacker will be locked into a move that Ttar resists, or else you Ttar would get 2hkoed from any CB neutral attack and won't be able to ohko with Pursuit if they stay in. So if the opponent is locked into a resisted move, wouldn't they switch out? And even if they do stay in, because switching out would kill them and assuming they know that you have CB, how much exactly is a resisted attack going to do to you? So if you want to trap them, you will, unlike the special attackers that i mentioned, which Ttar should be able to trap.

    For example isn't the almost guaranteed survival against 2 Specs Latios's DM better than a 37% chance of getting 2hkoed?

    Isn't the almost guaranteed survival against 2 max SpA Celebi's Giga Drain after SR better than a 37% chance of getting 2hkoed?

    And finally isn't the guaranteed survival against Starmie's HP after SR better than a 6.25% of getting ohkoed? Or the 25% to survive the HP after 2 SR rounds?

    As i said before, i gave my reasoning, in details. So in order to get to a point, show me some calcs that explain what physical hits that Ttar should be taking, can be taken better with the evs in HP.

    EDIT: Anyway i will post the percentages that show how much better Ttar takes hits from the physical/special side with the evs in HP/SpD. You said that for the physical side the difference is 11%. How much is it for the special?

    @Jellyos

    As you said under NORMAL conditions we put the EVs in HP. But this isn't a normal situation. We are talking about a poke that, one of it's main draws, is to trap and kill certain special attackers, while also benefiting more from the SpD evs than a normal poke would due to SS. What are the reasons to use CB Tyranitar over CB Terrakion anyway? Being able to Pursuit trap things, special attackers mainly, and to summon sandstorm.
  7. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    You assume that we have a PERFECT scenario for these calcs and that SR is the only thing on the field. These are all rare cases, even though CB switches in on those Pokes. You'll most likely have some more residual damage (he's your weather starter), and most of those cases have such small margins it really isn't worth it.
  8. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    Your argument seems extremely circumstantial and like jc104 had said, an argument could be made for both sides on whether to keep physical or special bulk. In the comments of the Choice Banded tyranitar set onsite, it mentions "An alternative EV spread of 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 SpD is also viable"

    Why not use that if tyranitars job on your team is exclusively for trapping latios/etc.
  9. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I don't like this "neutral attacks do way too much, but resisted attacks are insignificant" thing. There is a whole continuum of damage that can be done to Tyranitar. You can't just assert that there is some sort of enormous gap in it. The physical choice pokemon I'm referring to are largely scarfers, e.g ScarfMence, Scarf Landorus locked into Stone Edge rather than Banders. Strangely enough a neutral attack from a scarfer will do damage somewhere in between that of a Choice bander using a neutral and a resisted move.

    Obviously, if the opponent is locked into a neutral move, using Pursuit may be a mistake, but the ability to take the hit and KO back is invaluable. You might take a resisted move on the switch-in before using Pursuit, either.

    Plus, one thing I forgot: Tyranitar often takes U-turns from Special attackers like Celebi. With 11% less physical bulk these are really going to do a significant amount more.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    With the HP evs in SpD, Ttar's job doesn't become ''exclusively trapping'', it still hits hard as fuck and provides SS. It is just that whenever i used CBTar, i would mostly come in against specially based pokes, so reducing the percentage you take from their attacks is very helpful, even if by a little.

    Also as i explained in the Subjective Changes thread, with the evs in SpD, suddenly your chance of trapping Latios and Celebi becomes much bigger, thus making Ttar a more reliable trapper.

    For example the chance that you have to successfully trap a Specs Latios that goes for DM, without SR on the field, with the evs in HP is 63%, lower than Thunder's accuracy, which noone uses without rain support anyway, while with the evs in SpD, it is 94%, almost the same with Air Slash's, which everyone considers as reliable. The same happens against max SpA Celebi's Giga Drain, with SR in play. 156 HP Ttar has a 63% chance of doing the job, while 156 SpD Ttar has 94% chance of doing the job. So the difference between the 2 spreads is the difference between reliable and unreliable when it comes to Pursuit trapping the main targets of CBtar.

    @jc

    You definitely have your points, and you made them clear, as have i, i believe, so let's let the QC members do their job, as we 2 have already nothing more to say...
  11. col49

    col49 unpolished
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    Um, while we're off discussing CBtar's EV spread, maybe we should address the fact that it's speed creeping? 100 EVs guarantee it outpaces 24 Speed Skarmory, which is given those EVs to outpace Fast Wobb. That makes it a speed creep, no?
  12. Thought

    Thought

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    Something I do want to make note of is that while Tyranitar is definitely a pokemon that is known and used for its special sponging abilities, its pretty tough on the defensive side of things as well. It has the defensive bulk to take physical hits often and efficiently, the problems are that it generally has weaknesses to a lot of common physical moves (See: Scizor's bullet punch, priority fighter, Conkeldurr's drain punch, U-Turn).

    So I would definitely be a bit cautious before taking away the HP Evs..

    Although, from what I see, taking Lati@s D. Meteors is DEFINITELY important. I can't tell you how many times I've had to use Tyranitar for that purpose alone. What I am thinking though is if its really worth it? From what I see, the 2hko from Latios is pretty much still there with SR included.

    On Celebi though, I'm really liking it. Perhaps include a Breloom+CB Tyranitar synergy combo? I'm thinking of putting them together as an offensive combo, they're pretty good for each other, it seems at least (Tyranitar can take the fire weakness away, as well as ice since its usually special. Tyranitar also resists the rare flying type, and is immune to psychic/psyshock. Breloom can take water (and is strong against rain) and has an edge on most fighters with its status.

    Liking the thread.
  13. Iconic

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    agreeing with jc104 that the slight increase in special defense doesn't really warrant the far more significant loss in defense. this is all really arbitrary, since a lot of these calcs are really situational, but i think it's just simpler to dump the leftover EVs into HP

    Bloo Is Rly Lazy So:

    [1:56pm] iconic: can you post
    [1:57pm] blue: just say i rejected it

    QC Rejected 2/3

    :)
  14. zdrup15

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    I should really read the standard subjective changes thread more, apparently there are good discussions there...

    However, I don't really think a very slight increase in special bulk is worth the significant decrease in physical bulk, so

    QC REJECTED 3/3
  15. Fatecrashers

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