CC and Pokemon Showdown

What should PS's CC be like?

  • "Pure CC" - exactly like PO, purely random

    Votes: 54 41.5%
  • "Improved CC" - random, but with useless things removed (e.g. Spit Up without Stockpile)

    Votes: 76 58.5%

  • Total voters
    130
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Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
#1
I've heard a lot of people ask about CC in PS.

I'm curious if people want CC, or CC with some modifications.

PS's randbat was originally supposed to be CC.

But no one could give me a list of learnsets, so eventually I just found a viable move list somewhere and used that. And when I added items, I was like "I'm using viable moves, I might as well use viable items". And then I had a lot of fun writing an AI to choose the best item. And then I decided to make it generate viable sets, which is where we are now.

PS's random battle definitely succeeds in giving you the chance to experience playing normally unpopular pokemon, or to experience what a pokemon from a different tier is like.

But I also wanted it to experience what playing with normally-unpopular items or moves is like, and that just didn't end up happening. I feel like trying again, to make either a "randomer battle" or a "improved CC" or maybe even just real CC.

Personally, I don't like real CC because the sets they give you aren't very fun, and are in many situations outright useless (Spit Up without Stockpile, Snore...). Something like an Improved CC that makes sure that (if possible) every item, ability, and move has some use, even if it's not popular. I really like the idea of "experience playing with unpopular items/abilities/moves", which is similar to CC's "experience playing with fully-random and often-useless stuff", but I personally think my idea is better.

In summary:

PS randbat: experience playing with unpopular pokemon
PS Improved CC: experience playing with unpopular items/abilities/moves, too
PO CC: experience frustration (disclaimer: I might be biased)

But what would you guys prefer? Fully random, or random-but-with-useless-things-removed?

Discuss.
 
#2
useless things are useless; CC was never of any interest to me because it was just so random. I like your random bat a lot more honestly because it feels like its an actual battle.

However, I did find that with the really, really, good Pokemon, less viable moves would probably be better. I mean, I got an Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Superpower / Fire Punch Deoxys-A. Even at level 70 it just swept everything.
 
#3
LOL. I like PO CC because of how random and funny it can be sometimes. Pokemon with useless moves etc can be useful by becoming a death fodder when you need it. PO CC is enjoyable if you don't play it /too/ seriously I think. Anyway, if it's possible, can we just have both PO and PS CC? >.> There's more variety to choose from xD An improved CC is possible if you want to do that :d

I hope this doesn't mean we have to choose and get only one form of CC >.> They're all enjoyable in their own right and it'll be great if we can have both forms of CC xD
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
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#4
Pure CC, it has always been like that since original CC on NetBattle, and CC isn't about winning, it's about having fun, and troll-moveset are, imo, part of the fun.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
#5
Agreeing with the above post. CC isn't a "competitive" tier at all. PS randbats could be put side by side with PO CC though, at least in the early stages of the merge. Then, according to people's preferences (from the server stats) we might decide to opt for just one of them.
 
#6
You can have all of PS randbat / normal cc / improved cc as metas but just keep the PS ladder as PS randbats plz

that's actually enjoyable as a non totally random relaxer
 
#7
You can have all of PS randbat / normal cc / improved cc as metas but just keep the PS ladder as PS randbats plz

that's actually enjoyable as a non totally random relaxer
Yeah what aldaron said, you can actually enjoy competitive pokemon and relax by playing ps randbats without going through the hassle of building teams and stuff.
 

Hipmonlee

Have a rice day
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#10
Does anyone really look at PS randbat as anything competitive?

Its a diversion either way, but there is enough strategy in normal randbats if you go looking for it.. There is a lot of fun to recognising that your squirtle would be better off setting up sunny day and icebeaming the enemy vaporeon than trying to match it one on one with surfs.

The randomness means you have to think on your feet. If you just get competitive movesets either way you dont really have the chance for the same innovation.

You can make some modifications, like, each pokemon has to have at least one attacking move or something..

The 1 attacking move thing was definitely the case for NetBattle.

Oh, actually, yeah, the improved CC thing.. I mean, I dont love the idea, but, sure, close enough..
 

panamaxis

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#11
I like the way PO has set it up now (totally random but always getting at least 1 attacking move) but that's probably because always getting semi-legitimate sets makes it too similar to the standard ladders to me.

I always liked the pure randomness of CC, like having your hoppip beat a kyogre because they got a bad moveset and you got a great one (which would never really happen as much in 'improved CC') but that's just my opinion and I'm sure others would disagree. That being said, improved CC is still fun.

Speaking of CC will PS have 1v1 CC and if so will it be pure random or 'improved CC'?
 

kokoloko

what matters is our plan!
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#12
randbats are fun, pure cc is not

disclaimer: personal opinion

if its not too much work (i suspect it takes you like half an hour tops to create a new tier), then just put all of them

this is one of those times where you really shouldn't be over-thinking things lol
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
#13
I would prefer that fully random classical CC is implemented into PS!, and I pushed this with bmelts yesterday. I've played both CC and PS randbat a lot (certainly more than anyone else here), I love both of them very much, and I would much prefer fully random CC to some semi-random chimera. One thing bmelts noted was that he doesn't exactly know how CC is implemented; I've played it enough to have empirically determined basically all of its specifications, and would be willing to list these for you should you decide to implement it.

Addendum: fully random CC is the best way to bugtest!

Addendum 2: I really have to wonder about you who say classical CC isn't fun...
 

Antar

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#15
As a CC devotee, it pains me to say this, but Randbats has proven to me to be a more enjoyable metagame than Challenge Cup.

The one thing that I don't like about Randbats is the level system--you guys should be using level balance or nothing. Deciding which pokemon are levelled up or down based on tier (if you need to base it on anything, it should be usage in OU--the tiers system really fucks up the correlation between tier and "power") and then based on executive re-levelling conditions really isn't tenable. But that's just my opinion. I understand that people like it because it maintains some aspect of speed tiers.

If I recall correctly, PO's always gives you at least one attacking move, so it isn't purely random. Correct me if I'm wrong.
They do give you at least one attacking move...

That's CC4Wifi iirc >.> I might be wrong here haha. Not sure for PO. :x
...but what counts as an "attacking move" varies from PO CC to CC4Wifi. I believe the criteria for "attacking move" for PO CC is "has a base power that's not zero and isn't on a small list of special moves" (example: Snore). For CC4Wifi, I actually looked through every single move to decide which ones counted as "attacking."



Btw, I definitely don't think we should have Randbats AND full CC--they're too similar. But I think we should do 1v1 CC (instead of 1v1 Randbats) on PS.

One thing bmelts noted was that he doesn't exactly know how CC is implemented; I've played it enough to have empirically determined basically all of its specifications, and would be willing to list these for you should you decide to implement it.
bmelts and I can talk. I would actually like to write the CC4PS code myself. I've already written CC4Wifi, so I know the details of how CC is implemented inside and out (plus, my version fixes a few little annoyances regarding CC4PO). It would also give me a chance to gain some familiarity with the PS source code.

But bmelts and I should talk.
 
#16
The pokemon were originally based on tiers, which actually worked rather well beyond a few flaws like Shaymin-S being nye unstoppable most of the time and Zangoose just being broken. Great Sage and Bmelts (plus the #randbats community) helped work out the levels to make randbats way more balanced and allow changes to be made if one or two mons proves to be a little annoying.

I didn't really mind CC all that much, but it got annoying having a near total dead weight team while your opponent has about 3 legendaries with an STAB, I understand that it's supposed to be fun but it's hardly fun when you can't answer back to your opponent on a seemingly regular basis. Metapod killing Steelceus was fun though.
 

Birkal

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#18
I agree with Great Sage on this one. I think "pure" CC and PS! randbats would actually compliment each other greatly. One is an organized mess while the other has that alluring "extreme" option of being a completely blenderized battle. I dunno; I personally find the idea of doing CC battles as straight up random to be more interesting than "oh, these Pokemon movesets are random, kind of."

However, I don't think it's a huge deal which way Showdown goes in the future. Randbats are the key random battle metagame of Pokemon Showdown!, so as long as we are still maintaining that, we'll be fine.
 

Solace

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#19
If GS thinks something is fun you know it has to be.......

But yeah fully random CC with at least 1 attacking move or whatever is way more fun than randbats imo!
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
#20
I like the way PO has set it up now (totally random but always getting at least 1 attacking move) but that's probably because always getting semi-legitimate sets makes it too similar to the standard ladders to me.

I always liked the pure randomness of CC, like having your hoppip beat a kyogre because they got a bad moveset and you got a great one (which would never really happen as much in 'improved CC') but that's just my opinion and I'm sure others would disagree. That being said, improved CC is still fun.
"At least 1 attacking move" isn't purely random at all. :P

Speaking of CC will PS have 1v1 CC
Yes.

and if so will it be pure random or 'improved CC'?
That's what this poll is to decide. :P

if its not too much work (i suspect it takes you like half an hour tops to create a new tier), then just put all of them
I know; I'll probably implement both for challenges, so this poll is for the ladder: The more similar tiers there are, the harder it is for a ladder search to be successful.

Also: rated or unrated?

The one thing that I don't like about Randbats is the level system--you guys should be using level balance or nothing. Deciding which pokemon are levelled up or down based on tier (if you need to base it on anything, it should be usage in OU--the tiers system really fucks up the correlation between tier and "power") and then based on executive re-levelling conditions really isn't tenable. But that's just my opinion. I understand that people like it because it maintains some aspect of speed tiers.
It feels like I'm the only one who actually cares about the speed tier thing. :P

Anyway, PO's Level Balance clause is, as far as I can tell, based on BST. PS's tier balance is the simplest system I can think of that takes all of BST, stat spread, typing, ability, and movepool into account.

It's surprising how few people think stat spread matters. Deoxys-D and Deoxys-A have the same BST, typing, ability, and movepool, yet one's BL and the other's been Uber since the beginning of time.

I know, tier isn't perfect, and the fact that Zangoose and Sunkern are in the same tier makes it sorta wonky, but I think it's better than BST.

The only other solution is to manually balance each one like Great Sage wants (which is a bit too much hardcoding for my tastes), or use CAP's obscure formulas.

Btw, I definitely don't think we should have Randbats AND full CC--they're too similar. But I think we should do 1v1 CC (instead of 1v1 Randbats) on PS.
...what's the difference? :S What are you saying here? I'm confused!
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
#21
Personally, I'm not so much annoyed by people who want CC, as by people who want CC with at least one attacking move and nothing else. Seriously, you want a change to pure randomness, but that's the only change you want? <_<
 

panamaxis

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#22
"At least 1 attacking move" isn't purely random at all. :P
Poll's wording, not mine :P

PURELY purely random (potentially no attacking moves) is fine with me, the poll says "exactly like PO, purely random" so I assumed we were either going to implement what PO has now or the improved CC, but going back to the way shoddy had it where you aren't guaranteed an attacking move is cool.
 

Antar

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#23
I know; I'll probably implement both for challenges, so this poll is for the ladder: The more similar tiers there are, the harder it is for a ladder search to be successful.
Yeah, we can have as many supported metagames as people want (can we PLEASE have PU ::puppy eyes::) as long as they don't all have ladders to find random matchups on.

Anyway, PO's Level Balance clause is, as far as I can tell, based on BST. PS's tier balance is the simplest system I can think of that takes all of BST, stat spread, typing, ability, and movepool into account.

It's surprising how few people think stat spread matters. Deoxys-D and Deoxys-A have the same BST, typing, ability, and movepool, yet one's BL and the other's been Uber since the beginning of time.

I know, tier isn't perfect, and the fact that Zangoose and Sunkern are in the same tier makes it sorta wonky, but I think it's better than BST.
Chat with Great Sage said:
<GreatSage> re: ps randbat levels, i'm still trying to convince aeo to adopt hardcoded levels particular to each pokemon
...
<Antar> but PS should use level balance
<Antar> level balance makes it so that each poke has roughly the same stat total
<Antar> note: *NOT* base stat total
<GreatSage> i already wrote up a list of levels to be hard coded
<Antar> are you using the CC list?
<GreatSage> no, straight level balance is not the best way to do competitive movesets
<GreatSage> there are some pokemon that are much, much stronger than their stat total would suggest
<GreatSage> based on moveset options, abilities, etc
<Antar> what level balance would you use instead?
<Antar> I'm not saying that level balance is perfect, but it's pretty darn good
<Antar> and involves no work and no judgement calls
<Antar> anyway, here's the level balance file I work with
<Antar> https://github.com/Antar1011/CC4WiFi/blob/master/level_balance.txt
<Antar> number corresponds to dex number
<GreatSage> my list is judgment calls that i made and were reviewed by other people who frequent the randbat scene
<GreatSage> and if you want to really balance it, it has to be judgment calls
<GreatSage> there are just so many intangibles that an algorithm can't do it well
<Antar> my experience with CC is that level balance works surprisingly well
<GreatSage> not if you guarantee competitive movesets on each pokemon
<GreatSage> i agree, classic cc should use level balance
<Antar> and any small unbalancings are fine, since everyone is getting pokes randomly from the same pool
<GreatSage> i agree with that too; but every algorithm i've seen produces potentially large imbalances
<Antar> the only imbalance I've seen with level balance is Shedinja
<Antar> and that's just because the algorithm is stupid
<Antar> slash shedinja breaks it
I agree that BST is *not* the way to go. PO uses stat balance (assumes 31 IVs, 85 EVs in every stat), and, as I said, it works pretty well (except Shedinja, which needs to be manually corrected).

Here's my hierarchy of preferred methods of level-balancing:

  1. Hypothetical balancing equation that has been shown to accurately account for usage stats. I also want a pony and world peace.
  2. PO's level balance or some other time-tested and accepted algorithm. It doesn't need to be perfect, just needs to NOT be arbitrary and have nothing in it that's "broken."
  3. Level balancing by OU usage. You'll have to do something special for Ubers, if they're in the mix, and you'll probably have to do some manual adjusting. But basing it off of tier doesn't work any more, since you have pathological pokes like Quagsire who manage to squeak in under each cutoff. Also, if you're using released DW abilities, you'll obvs. have to base it on DW OU usage, not Standard OU.
  4. By tier. I just described the problems above.
  5. By fiat. GreatSage, I love you, but I don't honestly think there is a single person (or group) alive that can manually level-balance 649 pokemon and keep it fair.

...what's the difference? :S What are you saying here? I'm confused!
1v1 CC is extremely quick, so it can coexist with either full CC or full Randbats. I just think that 1v1 CC works better than 1v1 Randbats because, if the sets are competitive, it's too much a case of rock-paper-scissors. The fun thing in 1v1 CC is when it's Mankey vs. Alakazam, and Alakazam's only attacking move is HP Dark, whereas Mankey has Payback (does Mankey get Payback?).
 

prem

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#24
cant we just have both? they are both actually completely different. even though i am part of the #randbats group i like po cc more anyway, but both are incredibly fun lol.

also me being selfish i dont want that level and move list that we did to be worth nothing.

sorry if this post is choppy and shit i just woke up
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
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Creator of PS
#25
PS's randbat is not going to be removed. This poll is about what kind of CC we should add alongside randbat.
 
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