Celebi [4N] - Lead+

[Ellington]

This is the first peer edit I post so please advise me on how I can improve it. This set received good feedback in the creative moveset thread so I thought I'd post it here. I've playtested it plenty and it works wonders.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/celebi

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Leaf Storm
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: U-turn
item: Occa Berry/Focus Sash
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Modest
evs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Sporting good defenses, above average Speed, access to Stealth Rock, and the ability to counter many popular leads, Celebi proves to be a reliable lead. The idea is simple; if you are faster than the opposing lead, you‘re free to set up Stealth Rock. If not, you go on the offensive or break their sash with a U-turn and switch to a reliable counter.</p>

<p>For common leads faster than you, straight out offense or U-turn are most often the safest options. Aerodactyl is always 2HKOed by Leaf Storm and Azelf‘s sash is broken with U-turn, allowing priority users such as Scizor to pick them off (thanks to Occa Berry and Celebi‘s lower Speed, Scizor will always get in unscathed). Infernape can prove to be a nuisance, especially if it‘s running U-turn. If it‘s not, Occa Berry allows Celebi to either get Stealth Rock up or switch out to safety depending on whether Infernape Taunts or sets up after the inevitable Fake Out.</p>

<p>As for the bulkier leads, things become more simple. Swampert and Hippowdon are both OHKOed by Leaf Storm. You outspeed Metagross and 2HKO it, or you can just set up Stealth Rock right away in both cases. Bronzong is slower than you and if it puts you to sleep with Hypnosis, Natural Cure will remedy that. U-turn breaks any sashes Tyranitar might have and allows you to switch to a reliable counter right away. Celebi beats all forms of Heatran leads, surviving Fire Blast thanks to Occa Berry and OHKOing Scarfed ones and outspeeding Shuca Berry variants for a swift 2HKO. The unpredictable Jirachi can be annoying but unless it leads off with a U-turn, you will get Stealth Rock up and this particular Celebi set doesn‘t mind getting a Choice Scarf tricked on it at all.</p>

<p>Energy Ball or Grass Knot can be used over Leaf Storm for STAB, but are not recommended since the higher base power is needed to OHKO some common leads such as Hippowdon. Earth Power is needed to deal with Steel- and Fire- types. U-turn is necessary to switch out lest you become cannon fodder for Pursuit users. Occa Berry is the preferred item to take Fire attacks from Infernape and Heatran, but Focus Sash deserves a mention for its ability to allow Celebi survival through Infernape's and Jirachi's U-turns.</p>

 

[diinbong]

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Leaf Storm
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: U-Turn
item: Occa Berry / Focus Sash (spaces added)
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Sporting good defenses, above average Speed, access to Stealth Rock, (comma) and the ability to counter many popular leads, Celebi proves to be a reliable lead. The idea is simple, if you are faster than the opposing lead, you're free to set up Stealth Rock. If not, you go on the offensive or break their sash with a U-turn and switch to a reliable counter.(no space)</p>

<p>For common leads faster than you, straight out offense or U-turn are most often the (space) safest options. Aerodactyl is always 2HKO(removed apostrophe)d by Leaf Storm and Azelf‘s sash is broken, (comma) allowing priority users such as Scizor to pick it off (Thanks to Occa Berry and Celebi's lower Speed, (comma) Scizor will always get in unscathed).Infernape can prove to be a nuisance, especially if it's running U-turn. If it's not, Occa berry allows Celebi to either get Stealth Rocks up or switch out to safety, depending on whether Infernape Taunts or sets up after the inevitable Fake Out.</p>

<p>(no space)As for the bulkier leads, things become more simple. Swampert and Hippowdon are both OHKO(no apostrophe)d by Leaf Storm while you outspeed Metagross and can 2HKO it or just set up Stealth Rock right away. Bronzong is slower than you and if it puts you to sleep with Hypnosis, Natural Cure will remedy that. U-turn breaks any sashes Tyranitar might have and allows you to switch to a reliable counter right away. Celebi beats all forms of Heatran leads, surviving Fire Blast thanks to Occa Berry and OHKOing scarfed ones and outspeeding Shuca berry variants for a swift 2HKO. The unpredictable Jirachi can be annoying, but unless it leads off with a U-turn, you will get Stealth Rock up and this particular Celebi set doesn't mind getting a Choice Scarf tricked on it at all.</p>

<p>Energy Ball or Grass Knot can be used over Leaf Storm for STAB, but are not recommended since the high base power is needed to OHKO threats such as Hippowdon. Earth Power is needed to deal with Steel and Fire-types. U-turn is neccecary to switch out lest you become cannon fodder for Pursuit users. Occa Berry is the preferred item to take Fire attacks from Infernape and Heatran, but Focus Sash deserves mention for its ability to allow Celebi survival through Infernape's and Jirachi's U-turns.(no space)</p>

Thanks.

 

[Havak]

Small nit-pick, U-Turn should be U-turn.

 

[Alchemator]

I like the idea of this lead, and Celebi is a great pokemon overall. However, how do you handle leads with U-turn (many leads carry this). If I have a lead Azelf and I see a celebi, I immediately think of the 4x bug weakness and I'm sure other people might do aswell.

This looks very good overall however, I'll do some testing and get back :)

 

[locopoke]

To be honest, I don't like this set much. I mean, U-Turn and Stealth Rock can be achieved by using Azelf, and Azelf has way more speed to pull it off. Celebi is too bulky for Focus Sash, and it has way too many weakness' to just rely on Occa Berry. You can't guarentee that they'll be using a Fire move. Overall I think other Pokemon can do this better. The only good parts about this set are Natural Cure, and Celebi scares off Swamperts.

 

[Mekkah]

Personally I lead with a regularly EVed Celebi with Stealth Rock often, and I don't see any reason to massively cut down on its defenses and support moves. I say if you want to have your surprise KOs with Celebi, use Choice Scarf/Specs/Life Orb, put SR as a filler on it if you want, or just go totally defensive and have something that lasts forever.

 

[Ellington]

Thanks.

Gotcha. All changes implemented.

To be honest, I don't like this set much. I mean, U-Turn and Stealth Rock can be achieved by using Azelf, and Azelf has way more speed to pull it off. Celebi is too bulky for Focus Sash, and it has way too many weakness' to just rely on Occa Berry. You can't guarentee that they'll be using a Fire move. Overall I think other Pokemon can do this better. The only good parts about this set are Natural Cure, and Celebi scares off Swamperts.

Azelf might have more speed but Celebi is bulkier, also, the Focus Sash isn't recommended but it's mentioned as an option of you don't like random U-turns. Occa berry is the primary option because it deals with leads it otherwise couldn't deal with. Like you said, Natural Cure can be a great asset for random sleepers and Celebi can OHKO Swampert which has become increasingly popular as a lead, as well as Hippowdon. I can see where other pokémon surpass this but that's not to say this doesn't have merits which bring it above gimmick level. It's not a suicide lead like Azelf either, you can bring this in later on and it can still function well.

Personally I lead with a regularly EVed Celebi with Stealth Rock often, and I don't see any reason to massively cut down on its defenses and support moves. I say if you want to have your surprise KOs with Celebi, use Choice Scarf/Specs/Life Orb, put SR as a filler on it if you want, or just go totally defensive and have something that lasts forever.

If you can point out better EV spreads that would be great, I just went for max Speed and Sp. Attack to outrun other base 100's and you really need all the firepower to get so Celebi doesn't become dead weight later on. I'm not a fan of Choicing something that has Stealth Rock, either, since surprise KOs aren't really what this Celebi set is about. The moves listed deal with popular leads as the best they can with just four moveslots.

 

[locopoke]

I really think you should change the EVs on this set and make it bulkier. The 252 SpA / 252 Spe thing for Celebi just doesn't cut it in my opinion. Sure 100 base speed and Sp.attack is great but Azelf and Infernape surpass that. Why not take advantage of what Azelf, Infernape and Aerodactyl don't have and invest EVs into Celebi's defenses so it can take some hits. It still sets up rocks, has decent speed and can scare away Swampert and Hippowdon.

 

[Ellington]

I've been thinking about the EVs a bit. This seemed pretty good to me:

76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe and Timid

Allows you to outrun base 90's like Roserade and gives you enough bulk to survive U-Turns from Jirachi and Infernape.
​

 

[Thorns]

If it's not a suicide lead just use Leftovers >_>
But yeah, I wouldn't really use this lead, though it could work on those bulky bulky offense teams.

 

[Alchemator]

I've done some testing and I think that this really works, I still find the sash better because of the common SR/Explosion gross leads.

Also, one thing that people don't take into account when talking about a lead is that there are other members on your team who can benefit from an almost free switch in (Celetran has been named so for a reason).

*Big thumbs up* - The surprise factor is great aswell, no-one knows what to expect from a Celebi LEAD :D

 

[Incarnation]

Small, whiny note:

<p>Energy Ball or Grass Knot can be used over Leaf Storm for STAB, but are not recommended since the high base power is needed to OHKO threats such as Hippowdon. Earth Power is needed to deal with Steel and Fire types. U-turn is neccecary to switch out lest you become cannon fodder for Pursuit users. Occa Berry is the preferred item to take Fire attacks from Infernape and Heatran, but Focus Sash deserves a mention for its ability to allow Celebi survival through Infernape's and Jirachi's U-turns.</p>

Hippowdon can't do much to Celebi, so threat might be the wrong word to use here. "some common leads such as Hippowdon" is a tad better if you ask me.

 

[jumpluff]

This is the first peer edit I post so please advise me on how I can improve it. This set received good feedback in the creative moveset thread so I thought I'd post it here. I've playtested it plenty and it works wonders.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/celebi

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Leaf Storm
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: U-turn
item: Occa Berry / Focus Sash
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Sporting good defenses, above average Speed, access to Stealth Rock, and the ability to counter many popular leads, Celebi proves to be a reliable lead. The idea is simple: if you are faster than the opposing lead, you‘re free to set up Stealth Rock. If not, you go on the offensive or break their sash with a U-turn and switch to a reliable counter.</p>

<p>For common leads faster than you, straight out offense or U-turn are most often the safest options. Aerodactyl is always 2HKO'd by Leaf Storm and Azelf‘s sash is broken, allowing priority users such as Scizor to pick it off (thanks to Occa Berry and Celebi‘s lower Speed, Scizor will always get in unscathed). Infernape can prove to be a nuisance, especially if it‘s running U-turn. If it‘s not, Occa Berry allows Celebi to either get Stealth Rock up or switch out to safety depending on whether Infernape Taunts or sets up after the inevitable Fake Out.</p>

<p>As for the bulkier leads, things become more simple. Swampert and Hippowdon are both OHKO'd by Leaf Storm while you outspeed Metagross and can 2HKO it or just set up Stealth Rock right away. Bronzong is slower than you and if it puts you to sleep with Hypnosis, Natural Cure will remedy that. U-turn breaks any sashes Tyranitar might have and allows you to switch to a reliable counter right away. Celebi beats all forms of Heatran leads, surviving Fire Blast thanks to Occa Berry and OHKOing Scarfed ones and outspeeding Shuca Berry variants for a swift 2HKO. The unpredictable Jirachi can be annoying but unless it leads off with a U-turn, you will get Stealth Rock up and this particular Celebi set doesn‘t mind getting a Choice Scarf tricked on it at all.</p>

<p>Energy Ball or Grass Knot can be used over Leaf Storm for STAB, but are not recommended since the high base power is needed to OHKO threats such as Hippowdon. Earth Power is needed to deal with Steel- and Fire-types. U-turn is necessary to switch out lest you become cannon fodder for Pursuit users. Occa Berry is the preferred item to take Fire attacks from Infernape and Heatran, but Focus Sash deserves a mention for its ability to allow Celebi survival through Infernape's and Jirachi's U-turns.</p>

 

[Ellington]

EVs changed and typos fixed.

 

[diinbong]

Can this set be added now? It's definetly effective.

 

[Flora]

Blue is grammar fixes, red is stuff I'm concerned about.

<p>Sporting good defenses, above average Speed, access to Stealth Rock, and the ability to counter many popular leads, Celebi proves to be a reliable lead. The idea is simple; (semi-colon) if you are faster than the opposing lead, you‘re free to set up Stealth Rock. If not, you go on the offensive or break their sash with a U-turn and switch to a reliable counter.</p>

<p>For common leads faster than you, straight out offense or U-turn are most often the safest options. Aerodactyl is always 2HKOed by Leaf Storm and Azelf‘s sash is broken, allowing priority users such as Scizor to pick them off (thanks to Occa Berry and Celebi‘s lower Speed, Scizor will always get in unscathed). Infernape can prove to be a nuisance, especially if it‘s running U-turn. If it‘s not, Occa Berry allows Celebi to either get Stealth Rock up or switch out to safety depending on whether Infernape Taunts or sets up after the inevitable Fake Out.</p>

- For the breaking of Azelf's Sash, I know that can apply to Leaf Storm, but wouldn't it better for U-turn? I'd U-turn on a Azelf lead to Scizor. I'm just thinking of adding a "by U-turn" at the end of the "Azelf's sash is broken." I think "Azelf's sash is broken by U-turn" would make more sense.

<p>As for the bulkier leads, things become more simple. Swampert and Hippowdon are both OHKOed by Leaf Storm. (period) You outspeed Metagross and can (remove this) 2HKO it, (comma) or you can just set up Stealth Rock right away in both cases. Bronzong is slower than you and if it puts you to sleep with Hypnosis, Natural Cure will remedy that. U-turn breaks any sashes Tyranitar might have and allows you to switch to a reliable counter right away. Celebi beats all forms of Heatran leads, surviving Fire Blast thanks to Occa Berry and OHKOing Scarfed ones and outspeeding Shuca Berry variants for a swift 2HKO. The unpredictable Jirachi can be annoying but unless it leads off with a U-turn, you will get Stealth Rock up and this particular Celebi set doesn‘t mind getting a Choice Scarf tricked on it at all.</p>

- I'm mostly trying to make that one sentence better to read. The "can" definetely wants a removal though. You don't have to do the changes if you don't feel the flow though (or perhaps you have something better).

<p>Energy Ball or Grass Knot can be used over Leaf Storm for STAB, but are not recommended since the higher base power is needed to OHKO some common leads such as Hippowdon. Earth Power is needed to deal with Steel- and Fire- types. U-turn is necessary to switch out lest you become cannon fodder for Pursuit users. Occa Berry is the preferred item to take Fire attacks from Infernape and Heatran, but Focus Sash deserves a mention for its ability to allow Celebi survival through Infernape's and Jirachi's U-turns.</p>

 

[Colonel M]

Added, edited the stuff made with the grammar, on-site, and now moving to Archives.

EDIT: This also needs to be edited for Team Options. Celebi writer should take note of this.