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Celebi (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by JellyOs, Jul 14, 2012.

  1. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    This is gonna be long...isn't it...

    [pimg]251[/pimg]
    [dex=celebi]Celebi[/dex]

    [Overview]

    • good base stats all around
    • situationally good typing
    • awesome ability
    • decent movepool
    • good support options
    • access to nasty plot
    • new, dangerous threats to it like Tornadus-T
    • blocks some new threats like Keldeo and Thundurus-T
    • U-turn weak :(
    • pursuit weak
    • small place in VoltTurn

    name: Defensive
    move 1: Giga Drain
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Perish Song / Thunder Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 152 SpD / 36 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Good check to many new offensive threats such as Keldeo and Thundurus-T
    • Giga Drain is a STAB that gives you recovery and makes you not Taunt bait
    • Perish Song gives Celebi a small niche to stop set up sweepers
    • T-wave screws with sweepers hard
    • Recover gives you life
    • U-turn allows Celebi to build momentum while still being a defensive 'mon
    • HP Fire screws over Ferrothorn and Scizor
    • HP Fire can't OHKO Scizor, he needs a bit of prior damage
    • spread stops a 2HKO from Thundurus-T's LO Modest HP Ice
    • 36 Spe for Scizor
    • rest in HP and Def
    • Lefties is your only item choice

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Run more or max defense if your hate physics walls, the spread is pretty flexable
    • Natural Cure helps a lot here
    • Only use SR if your team has no other user
    • you can use Psychic or HP Ice for the last slot
    • Heal Bell
    • Worry Seed?
    • Ferrothorn and Scizor screw you over so use Magnezone or Magneton
    • works well with Tspikes
    • Tentacruel spins and gives Tspikes

    [SET]
    name: Nasty Plot
    move 1: Nasty Plot
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Earth Power / Psychic / Recover
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • arguably the best pure offensive set Celebi can run
    • NP boosts your SpA, allowing the sweep
    • Giga Drain is a solid STAB and restores your health
    • HP Fire because fuck you Steels
    • Earth Power because fuck you Heatran
    • Psychic because fuck you genies in rain
    • recover because fuck you things that won't let Celebi restore health with Giga Drain
    • spread changed to be much more offensive, now you're not outsped by everything

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • bulkier spread of 220 HP / 252 SpA / 36 Spe but a lot is faster
    • no matter what you're always not gonna have coverage on something so there are good other moves
    • HP Ice
    • Baton Pass
    • Scarf Terrakion is still a good teammate here to get rid of genies and fast stuff and special walls (Blissey & Chansey) he also takes the Dark-type attacks Celebi hates
    • Tentacruel has good synergy and can spin away hazards
    • Heatran for the Scizor weakness, Magnezone can fit here as well

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Leaf Storm
    move 2: Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Earth Power / Psychic
    move 4: U-turn / Thunder Wave / Recover
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 176 HP / 152 SpA / 180 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Leaf Storm is an awesomely powerful STAB move to be used like DM would be on a Dragon
    • HP Fire is to take out Steels not named Heatran
    • Earth Power is for Steels named Heatran
    • Psychic is a reliable STAB move without the -2 SpA effect
    • U-turn is a good scouting move
    • Thunder Wave gives Celebi some support options
    • Recover is awesome and heals off the LO recoil
    • Life Orb is great for Celebi (who doesn't have the greatest SpA)
    • I kept the EV spread because I honestly couldn't think of a better one

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Lefties lets you live longer
    • Giga Drain is a more reliable STAB move
    • use Scarf Terrakion with this, trust me
    • Tentacruel for hazards
    • watch out for Heatran if you don't carry EP
    • HP Ice really won't do much to 2x Dragons, so don't overestimate it
    • 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe w/ Timid
    • bulkier spread running 36 Spe, 252 SpA, 220 Spe

    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move 1: Leaf Storm
    move 2: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Earth Power / Psychic
    move 4: U-turn / Trick
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Scarf is revenger
    • Leaf Storm is the omnipresent awesome STAB
    • HP Fire breaks Steels
    • HP Ice breaks Dragons and can actually do something to 2x with Specs
    • Earth Power breaks Heatran
    • Psychic is a strong STAB
    • U-turn is great for scouting
    • Trick screws with Blissey / Chansey / stall mons
    • Timid to tie with +100's
    • offensive spread

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Modest for more power
    • fine tune the spread to be bulkier
    • use hazards with this
    • Giga Drain is a more reliable STAB
    • Terrakion is good with this
    • spin away hazards because Celebi will be switching in alot, Tentacruel can do this well

    [SET]
    name: Baton Pass
    move 1: Baton Pass
    move 2: Calm Mind / Nasty Plot
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Substitute / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Calm Mind > Nasty Plot, since it is much easier to pass CM boosts than NP boosts.
    • 101 HP Sub makes Chansey / Blissey set-up fodder and protects the CM recipient on the turn of Baton Pass
    • Substitute also blocks Dragon Tail - Careful Dragonite's Dragon Tail does not break Celebi's Substitute. After 3 CMs, not even Rain Tank's Hurricane would break Celebi's Substitute most of the time.
    • Specially Defensive spread makes setting up CMs on special sweepers much easier.
    • HP Fire can be used over Substitute to take out Skarmory before it can phaze Celebi's special attack boosts.
    • Many Rain Pokemon are set-up fodder for Celebi

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Thunder Wave gives it 25% fp chance of BP success against phazers, and it's a generally good utility move.
    • Earth Power to dispatch Heatran, which may phaze Celebi
    • 84 SpA to OHKO specially defensive Heatran with a +2 Earth Power or a physically defensive Skarmory with a +2 HP Fire
    • 72 Spe to beat Heatran to the punch.
    • Swords Dance & Seed Bomb / Zen Headbutt to pass Atk boosts
    • Magic Coat / Espeon to cockblock phazers
    • Recover to keep it healthy
    • Rain support is nice to ensure Leftovers recovery and halving Fire moves. Obviously Celebi wouldn't use HP Fire in this case.
    • Special sweepers that benefits from a few SpA boosts, such as Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Starmie, Latios, Volcarona.
    • Wish Passer / Heal Wisher, such as Jirachi to keep Celebi healthy.
    • Teammates that can deal with Scizor, PSong Celebi, Volcarona, and Tornadus. Heatran is a good answer to many of them; Scizor can Pursuit-trap Celebi / Tornadus; Jirachi is the best answer to Tornadus; Gyarados checks Scizor & Volcarona.

    [Other Options]

    • Swords Dance
    • SubSeed
    • CM
    • Rest + Natural Cure
    • Tanga Berry
    • Dual Screens
    • Perish Song
    • Healing Wish

    [Checks and Counters]

    • Faster stuff with strong SE STABs (Tornadus-T, etc.) in general
    • Tornadus-T
    • Tornadus
    • Kyurem in hail
    • Sun teams
    • Heatran
    • Salamence / Dragonite if you lack HP Ice
    • Hydriegon
    • Scarf Hera
    • Lati@s
    • Scizor
    • U-turn
    • Pursuit
    • X-Scissor on anything that gets it

    all done!


    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Leaf Storm
    move 2: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: U-turn / Earth Power
    move 4: Recover / U-turn
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 176 HP / 152 SpA / 180 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • TBH, I thought the old set for this was pretty much spot on but I changed the slashes and item to make it a tad more offensive
    • Leaf Storm is an awesomely powerful STAB move to be used like DM would be on a Dragon
    • HP Fire is to take out Steels not named Heatran
    • HP Ice is for Dragons, Landorus and Therian formes
    • U-turn is a good scouting move
    • Earth Power is for Steels named Heatran
    • Recover is awesome and heals off the LO recoil
    • Life Orb is great for Celebi (who doesn't have the greatest SpA)
    • I kept the EV spread because I honestly couldn't think of a better one

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Lefties lets you live longer
    • Psychic?
    • Giga Drain is a more reliable STAB move
    • use Scarf Terrakion with this, trust me
    • Tentacruel for hazards
    • watch out for Heatran if you don't carry EP
    • HP Ice really won't do much to 2x Dragons, so don't overestimate it
    • 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe w/ Timid
    • bulkier spread


    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Offensive Support (Tinkerbell)
    move 1: Leaf Storm
    move 2: Thunder Wave
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Psychic
    move 4: Recover / Stealth Rock
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 184 HP / 252 SpA / 72 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • functions as a support mon or offensive mon
    • Leaf Storm is an awesome STAB for Celebi to abuse
    • T-wave helps Celebi nab things as they switch, just be wary of Thundurus-T
    • HP Fire beats annoying Steels like Ferrothorn
    • Psychic gives good neutral coverage in all weather
    • Recover gives you health back
    • SR is another good support move
    • Lefties for longevity, LO for power
    • spread beats 252 neutral Heatran, rest in SpA and HP

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Earth Power for Tran
    • HP Ice for Dragons and the new genies
    • 232 HP / 240 SpA / 36 Spe is slower, but a bit bulkier
    • Magnezone is an awesome teammate to get rid of Scizor
    • Scarf Terrakion screw over Drak-types and Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T
    • watch out for Tornadus-T
    • causes switches, so use hazards
  2. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    While I haven't had experience with Celebi in BW2, I have used it a ton before. The defensive set needs some work done to the movepool, remember that defensive set is for defensive and stall teams. Considering that, perish song needs a good mention in the defensive set, maybe even a primary slash, perish song is critical to take out the last pokemon vs stall and the common CM-Jirachi and Reunicles. Considering that, I believe the move pool should look like this:

    -giga drain
    -recovery
    -HP fire / thunder wave
    -perish song (maybe leech seed here to)

    Stealth rock should be AC at best, you really should have something else that has it, and toxic is poo.

    Reflect needs mention somewhere. I know the defensive set can make use of it, buts its definitely at least OO.
  3. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
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    I think the Offensive set can run a plain 4HP/252SpAtk/252Spe set, because with my experience with it, you usually come in, fire off some Leaf Storms, and U-turn out. The lack of power is very noticeable sometimes.
    Also mention that Dugtrio and Magnezone are great partners for Celebi; they can demolish many of it's greatest threats: Scizor, Heatran, Lati@s etc.
  4. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    I haven't had a terrible amount of experience with defensive Celebi, do thanks for the input. I'll make the last slot Perish Song / HP Fire / Leech Seed. I'll remove Toxic, but I think Thunder Wave is pretty much necessary. And Dual Screens is OO!

    @Electrolyte... Are you using Modest because the power drop is pretty much minute...the only thing is speed, but I liked the old Navi spread but just renamed the set and moved some stuff around
  5. Lamppost

    Lamppost I put the milk in first
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    Put Stealth Rocks slashed with t-wave on defensive celebi and remove toxic. Make the move 4 slashes HP fire / HP ice / u-turn (no particular order).

    Also slash HP ice with HP fire on the nasty plot set.
  6. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
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    Perish Song on the Defensive Set. Where is U-Turn on this Set ? ...
  7. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
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    ah, no, I run Naive. But yeah, the main idea here is speed.

    Seconding with Ojama's idea of uturn. Uturn is generally a great move for all of Celebi's sets because of NC.
  8. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    [SET]
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: U-turn / Perish Song / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 152 SpD / 36 Spe

    Okay so from all the opinions I've gathered that this is pretty much the general consensus. Lamppost, I've switched out HP Ice for Perish Song because HP Ice will most likely see less use. I'll definitely AC it though.
  9. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    A couple of small concerns before I discuss with the other QC members in more detail:

    - Tinkerbell and the Offensive LO set look really similar, IMO. The only difference is that one uses Thunder Wave while the other uses an attacking move or U-turn. I know they play differently, but are they similar enough to attempt a merge?
    - While Scarf Celebi seems to have an interesting niche, Specs does not. Leaf Storm coming off 448 Special Attack seems okay... if not every Pokemon and mother resisted the crap out of it. I'm going take SDS's reasoning against CB Landorus here, basically if you want to be a good Choice Bander, you should be able to spam your "killer move" without too much hesitation. Celebi's "killer move", while there aren't anything common that are immune to it (except Afrobull), so many things 4x resist you may as well say that they're immune to it. So yeah, scrap Specs please.
  10. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    I really don't think merging Offensive (formerly Navi) and Tinkerbell is the best idea. They play really quite differently, one focusing on dealing damage and the other helping patch teams' weaknesses.
    I'll scrap Specs too. I kept pretty much the old Choice set after talking to AG wether to scrap it completely or not.
    I'll make these changes when I get home from work today.
  11. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    O.k this needs a bit of QC input, so im posting my opinions, and hopefully this will encourage other QC members to post there opinions as well.

    Firstly, I support shrang, in fusing Tinkerbell and "Offensive". They really are similar both in playstyle and in practise. Jelly0s, I read your most recent post RE on the merging, and its really not convicing me: "
    ". This is really really vague, and in all honestly, both sets do a good job at "hitting hard" (they both run modest nature and have LO as items ffs), and as for "patching teams weaknesses", well, that requires a lot of explanation, since technically, both sets do a good job at taking electric and water attacks that my team might be weak to so I guess they are "patching my weaknesses?"

    Basically, if you actually want to convince me (and shrang) that they play differently, you really need to better explain the differences, because I don't see them, shrang doesn't see them, and your (no offence), rather vague justification as to why they should be seperate, really needs a better explanation lol.

    Regardless, even if they don't get merged, I'm going to go through all the sets and make notes.

    Tinkerbell
    -Magnezone is a good teammate, but I want to see other examples of teammates. For example HEATRAN which still has that great synergy, maybe something like Conkeldurr or something that enjoys the paralysis support that Thinkerbell offers, things like that. I know that its a skeleton, but I do want to see more examples of teammates you might use with Celebi (this kinda goes for all sets).

    Nasty Plot

    -Don't bring up Solarbeam in AC, I don't know why you listed it, just.... don't mention it.
    -Get rid of Energy Ball and Water Pulse mentions.

    Defensive

    -I don't like the slash order on the set, just for starters. Personally, id have my grass STAB listed first, then Recover second, and then your utility moves in slots three and four. I also kinda want Perish Song given a greater mention. Its one of the moves that sets Celebi apart from other grass types, its excellent on defensive teams (which your using Celebi on), and its one of the reasons that I would actually use Celebi, on a team of mine. Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, I can run anything with those moves (like, for example, Blissey), but perish Song is what gives Celebi its niche (IMO), so I kinda want to see that reflected in the analysis. In terms of layout I would prefer...

    name: Defensive
    move 1: Giga Drain
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Perish Song / Thunder Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 152 SpD / 36 Spe

    with Stealth Rock in AC (or you can slash it in the final slot). Obviously this is heavily subject to change, as well as personal opinion, but if I was wanting to use defensive Celebi, id be wanting to make use of Perish Song above all else.

    Offensive and scarf sets are fine, I do know what you want to mean when you say stuff like "offensive spread" and "bulky spread" in the AC section, and then make no mention of the EV spread you are supporting.

    In General

    Can you flesh this out a little more please, there are a number of things that are unclear, or something, and id appreciate peace of mind that a good amount teammates will be listed. I also want to see Volt Turn brought up somewhere, since Celebi isn't actually that bad on Volt Turn if you have a slot for it.

    Set Order (IMO) should be something like

    Offensive
    Nasty Plot
    Defensive
    Scarf
  12. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    ginganinja stole most of my thoughts, though I'm going to post some things myself on what to suggest for this fine piece of celery.

    Tinkerbell

    I honestly agree - Offensive and Tinkerbell can be merged together. When you think about it:

    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Earth Power / Psychic
    - U-turn / Thunder Wave / Recover

    So obviously Hidden Power Ice / Stealth Rock can be mentioned in AC. I think HP Fire is one of those necessary evils unless you have Magnezone as a teammate or you're running a Drizzle / Rain Dance team. Definitely mention Magnezone and Heatran as partners - Magnezone does an awesome job handling the problematic Pokemon such as Scizor and Ferrothorn (if Celebi opts not to use HP Fire) while Heatran provides a defensive combination and can lay Stealth Rock too. Heatran does a nice job putting the hurt on other Steel-types while Celebi nukes the bulky Water- / Ground -/ Rock-types that plague Heatran. Dugtrio can be mentioned to eliminate Tyranitar and Metagross while Scizor can be mentioned to make Weavile and Tyranitar hell to use against Celebi.

    See what ginganinja means? I just mentioned 4 different teammates that can possibly work with Celebi. You only mentioned two of them - Scarf Terrakion as one of them. Fuck, you mentioned Tentacruel on the Defensive set - IMO it works nicely here.

    Nasty Plot

    Definitely agreeing with ging on removing the Solarbeam / Energy Ball / Water Pulse mentions. WRT Energy Ball - Giga Drain only loses in base power by 5 and Energy Ball's SpD drop rate is merely 10%. There are simply other ways of bypassing Chansey / Blissey than relying on Energy Ball's SpD drop. Definitely mention Magnezone / Heatran as partners - Heatran has the added benefit of trolling most Blissey sets thanks to access to Taunt, should you opt to use it. Magma Storm Heatran does a pretty nice job of putting Blissey in a checkmate position if it lacks Seismic Toss. Scizor might do a slightly better job of trapping Chansey and Blissey than Dugtrio since it can threaten it with STAB U-turn / Superpower or Pursuit the possible switch-out. Scizor can also prevent Mamoswine from ruining your day with its STAB Ice Shard. Tentacruel can help make it interesting with Toxic Spikes, too, like you mentioned before. In fact, Heatran + Tentacruel + Celebi isn't -too bad- of an offensive / defensive core, and Heatran can use Magma Storm + Taunt to cripple Blissey and Chansey right away and proceed to Earth Power / continuously use Magma Storm since Toxic Spikes mean Blissey is automatically poisoned. Also mention that Tentacruel not only helps remove Stealth Rock and Spikes, but also Toxic Spikes without having to spin which can be a nuisance with your sweep.

    Defensive

    I 100% agree with ging - Perish Song is huge on Celebi. It prevents it from being outclassed by other bulky Grass-types or other teammates that can be used alongside a stallish / bulky offensive team. Perish Song cripples teams that could otherwise be hazardous to teams - think stuff like SmashPass. Perish Song is nifty for preventing Pokemon from setting up on Celebi too. Gyarados certainly won't like that it's on a timer. I would put the set that ginganinja suggested above.

    Nothing on Choice.

    I think the set order should be different, though. This might be just me, but I value defensive Celebi a little more than Nasty Plot. This might be because I look at Nasty Plot Celebi now and notice how it's trolled by Tornadus-T especially and Thundurus-T to an extent, and Pokemon such as Mamoswine are kind of on the rise and Scizor has always been a common pest. It still is obviously a solid set, and could be argued above Defensive still.

    - Tinkerbell
    - Defensive
    - Nasty Plot
    - Choice

    Also out of curiosity has anyone used SubSeed this gen or Leech Seed in general? It seems okay since Celebi draws in the #1 Pokemon that looks at 12% like nothing until it realizes the opponent heals for a good chunk of HP (Blissey).
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Colonel M, i think that Leech Seed is huge garbage right now on Celebi. First of all, the number one switch-in to Celebi, Tornadus-T, dgaf about it. Also it is important to note why one would use Leech Seed. It is used for 2 reasons: recovery and crippling. Recover is 10 times better than Leech Seed at recovering, and Perish Song / T-Wave are 10 times better at crippling. You could say that Leech Seed is a middle ground between those 2 in one move, but Celebi wants reliable recovery in order to function properly on defensive sets, and in the offensive sets it already has huge 4 moveslot syndrome.

    So, imo, Leech Seed is OO material at best.
  14. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    Okay so the general consensus seems to be to merge the two, so I'll get to that.
    I'll flesh this out and add / remove the mentions. I put in Solarbeam because it's a good STAB for Sun, but I'll take it out.
    Defensive got a lot of different opinions, so I didn't exactly know the general feeling about it.
    To clear it up, when I say "offensive spread" on an offensive set, in example, it means I'll explain how the spread is offensive then put a bulkier spread in AC.
    I'll put these in on Friday, because I'm kinda crunched for time right now. (IRL; pre-college)
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    100% what ginganinja & Colonel_M said.

    Reflect / Light Screen deserves an AC mention on the defensive set. Drop Worry Seed.

    OO mention Trick Room, which pairs well nicely with Healing Wish.

    Also I believe Celebi deserves a Baton Pass set, as it's a superb Baton Passer. The versatility of Celebi also makes this an unexpected set.

    name: Baton Pass
    move 1: Baton Pass
    move 2: Calm Mind / Nasty Plot
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Substitute / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe

    Set comments:
    ~ Calm Mind > Nasty Plot, since it is much easier to pass CM boosts than NP boosts.
    ~ 101 HP Sub makes Chansey / Blissey set-up fodder and protects the CM recipient on the turn of Baton Pass
    ~ Substitute also blocks Dragon Tail - Careful Dragonite's Dragon Tail does not break Celebi's Substitute. After 3 CMs, not even Rain Tank's Hurricane would break Celebi's Substitute most of the time.
    ~ Specially Defensive spread makes setting up CMs on special sweepers much easier.
    ~ HP Fire can be used over Substitute to take out Skarmory before it can phaze Celebi's special attack boosts.
    ~ Many Rain Pokemon are set-up fodder for Celebi

    AC mentions:
    ~ Thunder Wave gives it 25% fp chance of BP success against phazers, and it's a generally good utility move.
    ~ Earth Power to dispatch Heatran, which may phaze Celebi
    ~ 84 SpA to OHKO specially defensive Heatran with a +2 Earth Power or a physically defensive Skarmory with a +2 HP Fire
    ~ 72 Spe to beat Heatran to the punch.
    ~ Swords Dance & Seed Bomb / Zen Headbutt to pass Atk boosts
    ~ Magic Coat / Espeon to cockblock phazers
    ~ Recover to keep it healthy
    ~ Rain support is nice to ensure Leftovers recovery and halving Fire moves. Obviously Celebi wouldn't use HP Fire in this case.
    ~ Special sweepers that benefits from a few SpA boosts, such as Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Starmie, Latios, Volcarona.
    ~ Wish Passer / Heal Wisher, such as Jirachi to keep Celebi healthy.
    ~ Teammates that can deal with Scizor, PSong Celebi, Volcarona, and Tornadus. Heatran is a good answer to many of them; Scizor can Pursuit-trap Celebi / Tornadus; Jirachi is the best answer to Tornadus; Gyarados checks Scizor & Volcarona.

    PS @ alexwolf: Scizor forces Celebi to BP out, making it difficult to set up CMs / Nasty Plot.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Just a small note, but why would you need teammates to deal with Scizor on the BP set? You have Baton Pass to escape from it anyway, and go to a Scizor check/counter.
  17. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Ok so I went over Celebi with Eo earlier and we've got some conflicting opinions.

    Set order:

    Defensive > Nasty Plot > Tinkerball/Offensive > Choice > BP.

    • Having the Defensive set as the first listed set might seem weird at first, but I can assure it's Celebi's best set in OU by far. Celebi is a fairly good check to the new BW threats like Breloom and Keldeo. It cripples a ton of its common switch ins with Thunder Wave like Tornadus and the Lati twins, and swap out with U-turn. Except Thundurus-T. Thundurus-T destroys Celebi, which is why i'm not sure why you listed it as a check? What was the point of using a spread that avoids a 2HKO from HP ice, when Celebi can't really do anything to Thundurus-T in the first place? On top of resisting its main STAB move, it's also immune to T-wave, which means it cannot be crippled. It's one of the best offensive Celebi checks. The main spread needs to go back to using 252hp/220def/36 speed. Celebi's typing makes it more suitable at checking Physical attackers; it's not really helpful against most Special attackers (barring Keldeo I guess... and you're more or else good against it) and 252/0 is more than enough to check Rotom-W & offensive Politoed.

    Defensive:

    name: Defensive
    move 1: Giga Drain
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Fire / Psychic
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

    Giga Drain & Recover are indispensable, Thunder Wave / SR are decent options depending on what kind of team you run. We added Psychic to the 4th slot because its useful against Tornadus-T / Thundurus-T switch ins, gets immediate damage on Breloom instead of wearing it down with Giga Drain, and it prevents you from being utterly walled from Dragon-types. The choice between Perish Song & Psychic was tough, but in the end we decided on Psychic. Perish should get a strong mention in AC though. Also mention a spread in AC that focuses on SpD to better deal with things like LO Starmie.

    Nasty Plot:

    • Nasty Plot is more or less the same set. Just update it with new info pertaining to BW2 and you're solid.

    Offensive / Tinkerbell

    I agree with the other QC members. The Tinkerbell / Offensive sets should be merged.

    We decided that the final set should look something like this:

    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Psychic
    - Earth Power / U-turn
    - Thunder Wave / Recover
    nature: modest
    evs: 176 HP / 152 SpA / 180 Spe

    With SR in AC.

    • It does a good at fairly represents both sets (the main one being offensive). The EV spread should put more emphasis on outspeeding all heatran and less on the base 90s (which don't really exist in OU, and outspeeding them is just a bonus.). An obligatory AC mention of 252/252 should suffice as well.

    Choice

    • HP Ice should be slashed ahead of HP fire since it lets you check Dragon Dancers, get meaningful damage on Tornadus/Thundurus-T and coverage on grass-types. Don't forget to slash Choice Specs.

    Baton Pass

    Mention Heatran as a top notch BP recipient. AC a 252hp/252spe spread so you can BP in the face of offensive threats.
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    PK Gaming, Celebi actually makes a great specially-defensive mon; with a specially-defensive spread, it can even tank hits from Specs Draco Meteor (62-73%) from Latios. It can also tank LO Ice Beams from Starmie all day (41-48%), given that hax does not strike. Same story for SpecsToed and Keldeo. Physically defensive Celebi would find itself dying to even Rain-boosted Water hits that it resists, let alone a super-effective hit.

    It's unfortunate that Celebi cannot T-Wave Thundurus-T, cuz otherwise Celebi would be one of the best counter to it. However it can always 2HKO Thundurus with HP Ice after SR or after 1 LO recoil (45-53%). So it can certainly check Agility LO Thundurus-T and beat Sub NP Thudurus-T if it decides to Sub up first. Celebi would lose 1-vs-1 to NP + 3 Atks (if Thundurus-T manages to nab a Nasty Plot beforehand that is), but that's easily checked anyways.

    With Rain being the dominant force of the current metagame, it makes more sense to make Celebi specially-defensive. I'd also slash HP Ice instead of HP Fire to beat Thundurus-T, but Psychic pretty much 2HKOs Thundurus-T after SR, too.
  19. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    You're right.

    Specially Defensive Celebi is very useful for taking on some high caliber Special Attackers. Yet, at the same time Physically Defensive Celebi is also useful for checking strong physical attackers too. Both are equally effective sets that handle different set of threats in BW OU. We can't slash EV spreads so...

    So let's divide "defensive" set into 2 different sets.

    Physically Defensive & Specially Defensive.

    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Giga Drain
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Fire / Perish Song
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Giga Drain
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Ice / Perish Song
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 32 Spe

    The SpD set uses HP Ice, because like you say its useful for things like Thundurus-T / Tornadus-T, but it also lets you get a little bit of damage on Special Attacking Dragon-types (Lati-twins... which you now, sorta barely check?). HP Fire / Ice should get AC mentions in the Specially Defensive & Physically Defensive spread respectively.

    EDIT: Psychic goes in AC now. Stealth Rock too.
  20. Nyktos

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    Shouldn't the specially defensive set be running 32 Spe since it doesn't have HP Fire lowering its IV?
  21. JellyOs

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    I can't say I agree with two defensive sets. Same moves, item, similar spread, but opposite stat... Just doesn't seem like it would be worth a whole other set. Personally, a set comments stat spread of physically defensive on a main specially defensive seems good to me
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    physically defensive and specially defensive Celebi counter different threats (although they may check similar threats), so I believe they warrant separate sets, as PK Gaming have suggested. Other QC members can weigh in on this, though.

    Also just copy & paste my bullet points about BP Celebi - don't pick and choose.
  23. Harsha

    Harsha
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    Agreeing with Pocket and PK; personally I find that the sets play really differently. Sure, you are supposed to be tanking hits, countering bulky Water-types, and then recovering, but the threats you check are so entirely different that imo having two sets to explain is best. You can't slash EV spreads, and both are pretty much equally good, so relegating one to the AC is questionable at best. Just to re-emphasize, physically defensive Celebi will not be tanking Specs Water moves nearly as well as specially defensive Celebi -- this is no good, considering Celebi is typically a team's best Water defense unless it packs an FWG core with Jellicent and Heatran (Jellicent takes the Water moves of course). Then again, physically defensive Celebi takes on threats such as Choice Scarf Terrakion much better, and it can sponge pretty effectively. Maybe the counters to the sets are the same (e.g. Tyranitar and stuff) but considering the fact that they counter completely different threats, I agree that we need two sets.
  24. New World Order

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    Well it is possible to just make one of the two spreads an alternate EV spread. Then explain later on that SpD allows Celebi to take hits from the likes of Thun-T and Def allows Celebi to take hits from the likes of Conkeldurr and whatnot. However, it's not like SpD is worthless against physical attackers and Def is worthless against rain teams, it just makes it more difficult to take repeated abuse. I disagree with Harsha that they play a different style: they both sponge hits, disrupt opposing offensive threats, heal when necessary, help you pivot to a more powerful attacker etc. they just do it against different threats is all. HP Ice vs Fire argument doesn't really work that well because you can still run HP Ice on Def and hit a Thun-T or Tor-T on the switch-in.

    It's also a lot more aesthetically pleasing to have one set than 2 sets with similar looking spreads. Keep in mind that the average player looks at analyses only for the moveset and exact numbers on the EV spread. I'm sure they can figure out that trying to eat repeated Keldeo Rain Boosted Hydro Pumps without SpD investment is a bad idea.
  25. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    name: Defensive
    move 1: Giga Drain
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Perish Song / Thunder Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 152 SpD / 36 Spe

    imo on this set uturn is too good to be slashed. with its typing, reliable recovery, and nat cure, cele can shut down and force out so many pokes, particularly common waters, but at the same time it's helpless fodder for powerhouse dragons, torn-t, heatran, etc. uturn just builds momentum so easily off those ~guaranteed~ switch-outs, while also not making cele a liability for the plethora of dangerous mons that can indifferently come in for a free turn. not only that, cele's slow uturn really maximizes its potential as a special sponge by providing an amazing pivot for things like cm viriz and keldeo so that you can bring in a revenge killer unscathed. its slow uturn helps manage so many threats in general when you can crutch on those 100/100/100 defenses and just dgf and take w/e hit.

    so yea my two cents maybe consider slashing psong with hp fire, then acing twave.

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