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Celebi (Baton Pass Update) (QC 2/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by jc104, May 28, 2013.

  1. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    OK I'm quite busy now but after a couple of IRC discussions it has become clear that QC doesn't entirely agree about the course of action to take here. I want to get the discussion over with so I can write this up in a just over a week's time. This is the current analysis for baton pass celebi:

    Current Baton Pass set (open)
    [SET]
    name: Baton Pass
    move 1: Baton Pass
    move 2: Calm Mind / Nasty Plot
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Substitute / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm / Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Baton Pass isn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind when considering Celebi's large list of viable sets. Despite its rarity, however, using Baton Pass with a boosting move is an underrated and incredible strategy on something as versatile and bulky as Celebi. Not only does it boast multiple resistances to tank attacks while boosting, but it can also hit back hard should the situation call for it. While Mew might seem like a better candidate for such a set, Celebi's very presence intimidates and forces out a larger list of threats, and Mew's own set often leaves it too vulnerable due to a lack of attacking moves and an inferior defensive typing. Outside of using Baton Pass, Celebi can also act as a bulky boosting tank, capable of boosting its Special Attack and hitting back hard with Giga Drain while avoiding dangerous attacks with Substitute or Baton Pass.</p>

    <p>To use this set effectively, Celebi should come in on a threat it can easily force out or set up on. Such targets include (but are not limited to) rain-reliant threats, bulky Water- and Ground-types, Breloom, and non-Taunt Gliscor. As the opponent switches in a response, Celebi should have acquired a boost or more. Baton Pass lets it escape from the clutches of Heatran, Scizor, Tyranitar, and many other counters, and pass its boosts to something more suited to facing these threats. Scizor in particular can be problematic due to its ability to use Pursuit or U-turn. Therefore, Celebi can either use Substitute to predict Pursuit and avoid U-turn or use Hidden Power Fire to take it, as well as other Steel-types, out instantly. As a bonus, if Celebi manages to keep its Substitute intact, the Baton Pass recipient can switch in safely while being even more of a threat with a form of protection.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A specially defensive EV spread makes setting up boosts against special attackers much easier, and is especially preferred if using Calm Mind. Maximized investment in HP in particular is a requirement, allowing Celebi to tank hits better overall and, more importantly, create 101 HP Substitutes. Doing so prevents Seismic Toss and Night Shade users from breaking a Substitute in a single hit, making setting up in front of the likes of Blissey and Chansey. Even so, to maintain offensive pressure and preserve Celebi's health and ability to continue using Substitute, it is recommended to hit them occasionally with boosted Giga Drains.</p>

    <p>If not using Calm Mind or if you would like Celebi to beat other threats, there are several other options to consider. Celebi's Speed can be increased to outrun several important targets; such as Modest Heatran, which requires 72 Speed EVs. Additionally, investing in Special Attack and using other coverage moves allows Celebi to beat some threats without having to rely on prediction with Baton Pass. For example, 248 HP / 148 SpD+ Scizor can be OHKOed by a +1 Hidden Power Fire with Stealth Rock damage, while the same can be said for specially defensive Heatran if Celebi uses a +2 Earth Power with 84 Special Attack EVs. Celebi is also able to use Swords Dance, though using either Nasty Plot or Calm Mind is generally better in the long run as they both benefit Celebi offensively. Magic Coat is another option that prevents phazers and Taunt users (especially Terrakion) from ruining the chain. Recover allows this Celebi to function better as a sponge against special offense, while lasting long enough to find the perfect opportunity to Baton Pass. Finally, a Tanga Berry allows Celebi to tank a weak U-turn and respond, though it can always bypass this with Substitute and will miss the recovery from Leftovers.</p>

    <p>As this set is centered around Baton Pass and a special boosting move, teammates that benefit from Special Attack and/or Special Defense boosts are obviously mandatory. Note, however, that Celebi's multiple weaknesses mean that defensive synergy is also mandatory; recipients must be able to tank attacks such as Scizor's Pursuit and U-turn, Tyranitar's Crunch, and random Fire Blasts and Ice Beams. Using this Celebi with rain support gives it one less weakness to deal with, and there is a long list of powerful rain-based attackers to pass boosts to, although in this case, using Hidden Power Fire is ill-advised. Special attackers that have decent synergy with Celebi and benefit from the boosts include Thundurus-T, Choice Scarf Keldeo, Rotom-W, Starmie, Heatran, and Volcarona. Pairing Celebi with Magic Bounce Espeon is also a good strategy to avoid being phazed out, though keep in mind that this doubles up on Ghost-, Dark-, and Bug-type weaknesses. Finally, teammates that can deal with specific Steel-types, opposing Perish Song Celebi, Volcarona, and Tornadus are very helpful in letting Celebi set up. Heatran is a good answer to many of them, while a Scizor of your own can Pursuit-trap Celebi.</p>


    It is clear to me that although this was written relatively recently, and by one of our foremost QCers at that, this analysis fails to explain the true merits of baton pass celebi. Both the set and the focus of the analysis just aren't right. Excluding full baton pass teams (which this analysis does not focus on either), Baton Pass celebi is a specially defensive celebi first. Baton Pass is a secondary function, the move largely being used to escape Pursuit, while also allowing Celebi to do something productive despite being so hopelessly walled by so much of OU.

    Now, some QC members, with whom I personally disagree, have suggested combining baton pass and specially defensive celebi together into one set. I think this would be too complicated, and would waste what is, for the most part, a decent specially defensive celebi analysis.

    Here is what I think the replacement set should look like

    name: Baton Pass
    move 1: Baton Pass
    move 2: Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
    move 3: Psychic / Giga Drain
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe


    Set comments:

    • Primarily a Specially defensive Celebi, used to check rain teams and do whatever else specially defensive celebi does.
    • Bearing in mind that using the move Baton Pass is already a decent idea, allowing an easy escape from Pursuit, passing a boosting move requires a surprisingly small investment – just one move
    • Celebi, especially the specially defensive variant, is quite easily walled by a whole bunch of things, and as such often struggles to do anything productive with its free turns. This set allows Celebi to do some real damage – by letting something else do it for her!
    • Since this is a specially defensive celebi first, recover is mandatory. Giga drain / Psychic is a respectable STAB attack – handy especially with boosts. Psychic will do more to your typical switch-ins (except ttar), while Giga Drain helps you more convincingly beat what you clearly already beat.
    • Variety of moves can be passed. Nasty Plot is the best, passing to Keldeo. CM is more defensively useful for Celebi (ensuring it doesn't get screwed if the opponent leaves their thund-t or specs politoed in, for instance), and can aid further setup from the reciever.
    AC

    • Specially defensive spread is required for dealing with rain water moves.
    • Speed evs are recommended, as you need to move before scizor/tyranitar in order to escape. 32 Speed EVs let you outrun all TTar, while 64 will let you outrun all scizor and gothitelle (which threatens with Trick/Taunt/Signal Beam. Neither max speed scizor or gothitelle is common, but the difference is significant when they do show up)
    • Especially with CM, even more Speed can be useful, as you can use it to take less damage from incoming special attacks before they hit you,
    • Alternative moves – SD is decent.
    • Baton Passing Substitute is reasonable – it's similar to U-turn, except that sometimes the opponent won't be able to break the sub and you'll get an extra turn out of it. HP Fire can be used to KO scizor (since it can still be annoying, u-turning on your receiver and switching in a counter). Probably should be used over Giga Drain.
    • Full BP variant – Sub/CM/Baton Pass/Giga drain or recover. Good check to electric types/rain boosted water moves. Very solid booster although psychic typing is not convenient (espeon is mandatory and mr mime also a good choice)
    Teammates

    • Receivers – Generally, you want something that is (effectively) very fast, reasonably powerful, and able to switch into Celebi's counters (U turn / dark resistance). It's not 100% necessary to sweep, but you need to make sure you do some good damage.
    • Choice Scarf Keldeo is by far the best example (receiving NP) – resists dark/bug, v. fast + resists bullet punch. Water moves v. strong in rain. Some trouble with water immunes though (doesn't matter how many boosts you have)
    • Wide variety of decent SD receivers – physical priority moves. Think Scizor, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, maybe infernape.
    • CM recievers that can use the defensive boost to set up further e.g agility thund-t, or just to become hard to take down.
    • Remember, this is not a dedicated baton passer – receivers should be good in their own right, and there are also plenty of good partners that are not great receivers (e.g Heatran).
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Should we combine the specially defensive set with the baton pass set?

    It is true that by combining those two sets there would be a lot of slashitis and the AC would be huge. Here is how this set would look like:

    move 1: Psychic / Giga Drain
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Baton Pass / U-turn
    move 4: Perish Song / Nasty Plot / Thunder Wave

    For this reason i think that keeping the sets seperated may be the best option, however it must be noted that the primary function of both sets is the same: special wall. This means that the rewrite of the Baton Pass set should be both delicate enough to differntiate it from the SpD set, especiallu in the set comments, while also not overemphasizing Celebi's job as a Baton Passer, as special walling is still its main purpose.

    What i should we do about Celebi on dedicated baton pass teams - OO/AC?

    AC of the Baton Pass set seems as the best option. Celebi has a definite niche in dedicated Baton Pass teams and it would be a shame to dump it to OO.

    Which boosting moves should be listed and in what order?

    I am torn between mentioning Nasty Plot alone or slashing Calm Mind with it. Swords Dance i think is AC material, as there are not so many Pokemon that can take advantage of the SD boost while having very good synergy with Celebi.

    How much Speed should the set run?

    Same EV spread as the SpD, and both sets should run enough Speed to outrun max Speed Jolly Tyranitar and maybe max Speed Jolly Scizor, if the loss of special bulk doesn't matter.
  3. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    It's worth mentioning that if you outrun jolly scizor, you also outrun timid gothitelle, which could potentially nail you with signal beam edit: or more likely trick, or taunt

    Also, although there are no SD recievers as good as Keldeo is as an NP reciever, there is a much broader choice of decent options. Virtually any priority attacker is a decent partner, most of them having the typing to switch into u-turn and dark type moves reasonably easily.
  4. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Yeah, what's 32 less SpD EVs? Just outrun gothitelle before it Tricks or Taunts you.

    On another note, having played with this Celebi, I'd also like you to mention that unless the player has the correct Pokemon alive and ready to pass to, Baton Pass Celebi can be the weak link in the chain, since it can't significantly damage opposing SpD Celebi, and can't prevent it from using Perish Song. Same goes for Roar / Whirlwind users unless you have Espeon ready. Also mention that Celebi's Psychic typing can be redundant with Pokemon common in Baton Pass teams, so players will have to play carefully with it.

    I'm sorry the current Baton Pass Celebi has not met your expectations (it was mostly influenced by the skeleton given though).
  5. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Don't worry AG.

    Baton Pass celebi wasn't the common set it is now. Well done to whoever came up with using BP celebi on non-baton pass teams, because I never would have thought of it.

    As for using Celebi on a full baton pass team, I don't think it's ever been a weak link for me. It's usually extremely effective, although using it does seriously stack weaknesses. I generally use Mr Mime as well though so I have no trouble with Perish Song Celebi.

    To clarify though, the non-dedicated bp team set is the main one. If you think dedicated BP needs a seperate set (Sub/CM/Giga Drain/Pass), then that's a possibility. However, at the moment I'm thinking the dedicated baton pass team set will just be going in AC.
  6. tehy

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    I run it as a SpD celebi TBH, so I think it should definitely be combined with the previous SpD celebi analysis.

    Honestly, it's basically a SpD celebi with Baton Pass as a means of escaping pursuit as you said. NP passing is a sweet side order but one that usually comes with a price, I.E. no moves. Given as NP pass celebi would probably be used as a more offensive pivot, I question if this is even worth it, especially given that Skarmory (In rain and even out of it) and bulky tran are such common switch-ins to Celebi and both carry phasing moves.

    Also, sableye eats the Psychic wielder alive. Just throwing that out there.
  7. ginganinja

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    Drop SD to AC imo.

    Psychic needs to be SLASHED with Giga Drain as well.

    Should we combine the specially defensive set with the baton pass set?

    No

    What should we do about Celebi on dedicated baton pass teams - OO/AC?

    AC
  8. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    OK I think we're going to have a seperate set. The skeleton I'm writing looks long enough as it is.

    Should be up shortly

    However, I still don't quite understand why you would pass CMs and I don't understand why SD is only AC worthy. I can only really think of one good NP receiver (Keldeo), no good CM recievers and a host of reasonable SD receivers (scizor, lucario, conk, dragonite, for example). I was also wondering if Infernape was worth using as a receiver; I know it's not very good but it does fit quite well.
  9. Chou Toshio

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    Recover is amazing and helps get Celebi out of all sorts of situations. Still, I always (like ALWAYS) find myself wishing I had Psychic or HP Fire. I'd actually slash Psychic over recover, especially on the Nasty Plotter (who can recoup with Giga Drain).

    In addition to Keldeo, Landorus is a pretty devastating pass target. I've even managed to get RP off after passing. wahahahaha

    There's also Volcarona... Or pass to agility moltres for lols
  10. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Without Recover Celebi can't really perform its primary role. Recover is the single most important move.

    Baton Pass is already in AC of the NP set, which has the attacking investment required for a set like that. I think that should suffice.
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Since I was the one who wrote the skeleton (thanks, AG, for writing it up!) - I guess I should clarify a few things. I used the BP set back in BW1 on a rain team, and I had Wish support from Jirachi to keep Celebi healthy. I also had Gastrodon to tank Rain hits, too, so Celebi wasn't so hard-pressed in tanking special hits, and boosted Giga Drain also helped with recovery. I also felt that Substitute, etc was a better choice to distinguish it from the defensive sets.

    This is why I disagree with fusing the two sets, because Baton Passing boosts adds such a distinctive role to Celebi, that it transforms Celebi into a totally different beast from the specially defensive set.

    I agree with alexwolf that Swords Dance is AC material. Celebi benefits more from Nasty Plot and CM boosts for Giga Drain imo. I also think it's just a lot more easier to sweep with a special sweeper than with a physical sweeper in the current meta. Slash Calm Mind with Nasty Plot, since those specially defensive boosts really does ease in setting up and passing.

    Dedicated BP set can be mentioned in AC, since it's basically the same spread I think with Subsitute > Recover. This is also a set analysis for Baton Pass after all.

    As for Speed, I don't mind it bumping it up from 244 to 252

    PS: I actually built my team around BP Celebi, so baton passing boosts was actually its primary role. Special sponging is certainly an important role right after it, but I did make sure to not overtax Celebi in the defensive department by having another special sponge. With Expert Belt Keldeo and U-turn Landorus being a thing now, relying solely on Celebi for these dangerous threats is a bad decision anyways.
  12. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    I think your being close minded then on Calm Mind recipients / NP recipients then if you can think of 4-5 SD recipients and only 0-1 special recipients.

    As it stands, Keldeo is almost the best possible recipient for Celebi, as it resists its common weaknesses and has little drawback. Other decent recipients that Celebi finds itself passing to are like, Landorus, Politoed, and I guess stuff like Jirachi isn't terrible. I even tried Kyurem / Hydriegon as a pass recipient and both were fairly decent, and Heatran and Volcarona were ok as well (Volcarona was a bit physically frail tho for my taste).

    I prefer SD to AC because in my experience its hard to get to work. Sure, it has recipients, it would be amiss to say it doesn't, however, non of these recipients are remotely as good as the Keldeo / Celebi combination, and all have flaws. (Scizor and Lucario suffer more from low speed than anything, Gyara and Nite are slow and easily revenged etc). Thats not to say that some of the special sweepers I mentioned don't have this problem, they do, but in general special sweepers just pair with Celebi a lot better, and its generally easier to find good partners, where its a bit harder to find partners for SD. I think NP / CM def need to be in a slot, and SD starts getting things a little slashy + as I pointed out, I don't like it as much.

    Calm Mind I had a good amount of experience with, and while it lacks the initial power of Nasty Plot, it is useful when you pass to creatures with a boosting move themselves, since they have the bulk to go for more. Stuff like Volcarona / Heatran / Tailwind Hydreigon / Landorus might not be as ideal partners as Keldeo, but all of them have some form of a speed boosting move available to them, allowing them to gain a quick advantage. Calm Mind also allows Celebi to gain multiple boosts, and still remain at high health after passing, something Nasty Plot does not do. Celebi is designed to take a hit in order to bring in a recipient, usually this doesn't matter since your relying on my recipient to clean shit and take down the team, but if it doesn't then your Celebi is left on low health and is vulnerable to stuff like Keldeo under rain / Agility Thundurus-T / Landorus etc. Calm Mind avoids this problem by boosting your defences, meaning you can take those hits much easier (and end up at a higher health after you passed) letting you still check those mons if things go south, while having the option to start up a mini chain again.

    Also can we PLEASE get a slash for Psychic with Giga Drain. Its been mentioned enough...
  13. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    OK about Psychic. I think it was only said once though (+one comment suggesting it for a combined SpD set)

    Will consider the other stuff later.

    edit: I find it slighly irritating that you accuse me of being closed-minded. I recall having a discussion a few days ago on IRC about possible recievers, one one of the rare occasions when I managed to connect for more than a few minutes. Practically every reciever suggested you rejected for being too slow, even scarfers, or for being vulnerable to priority moves or something. Ultimately, Keldeo is the only special attacker that really has the Speed to actually sweep, while a variety of physical attackers have access to priority attacks. Most of OU's special attacks have extremely inappropriate typing (e.g Lati@s), simply poor defenses, or are easily revenged because their speed is not totally incredible like Keldeo's. Most of OU's priority users have appropriate typing and reasonable defenses, and a way to get around at least some of the speedy revenge killers.

    Frankly, it strikes me that you are being closed minded, in an absolute refusal to admit that any of the SD receivers could work. As such, I'll take it upon myself to test various recievers out, which bearing in mind how terrible my internet is at the moment, will be a rather unpleasant process and may take some time. But for sure, I'm not going to be closed minded about it. I'm going to give everything a fair chance.
  14. Chou Toshio

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    I would have to say Recover > Substitute. Substitute is a lot more situational on a Pokemon that's going to pass out and cure any status anyway. Sometimes Celebi even WANTS to get Paralyzed (especially when facing something like Special Defensive Body Slam Jirachi), so that it can pass without the pass target getting ruined.

    Since Toxic, T-Wave, W-o-W, mean like nothing to Celebi (and it also passes out of Pursuits), Substitute is only useful for scouting. That's a very limited utility compared to Recover (which can also be used for Scouting in many situations). Recover is just incredibly clutch in setting up on all sorts of threats, and keeping Celebi in the game.

    One thing I've noticed about B-Pass Celebi, it's often able to set up twice, and both times can be clutch. Celebi's first NP pass might only result in 1 kill (due to many threats outrunning Keldeo/Landorus), but that first kill is often the "wall break" that unhinges the whole enemy team. Then in the late game, a second Celebi Pass can result in game over.

    This kind of situation happens a lot; and whenever I see Politoed, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Forretress, Breloom, etc. etc., I know that even if I let my Celebi get really weak to make a pass or take down a threat like Keldeo or Landorus, Celebi still has a chance to get back in the game and make a pass (or even sweep itself) after a single recover.

    That's not to say Substitute isn't notable at all... I'm thinking Subbing against a switch-out to an in-coming U-turner would be useful. However, that use would be limited in Scizor being slower, and its U-turn likely to break the sub even if you pass it to a U-turn resist. Scizor would come out on top in that situation. I'd say it's good to scout the odd U-Turn landorus(-T) or Signal Beam Jolteon switch in though. I've even ran into CS HP Bug Rotom-W before...
  15. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Well that's a very nice summary of substitute, I have to say, but I don't think we are really even considering it over recover. The full BP set in AC uses sub almost exclusively to block crits - if you've ever used full BP you'll know how significant this is. Otherwise, sub is in ac as an alternative to boosting moves (classic subpass) at the moment, although tbh this is questionable.
  16. Chou Toshio

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    ^ah you're right. I misread Pocket's post. Yeah, sub's best on full BP Celebi-- it's hugely useful there, and Celebi doesn't need an offensive move in that case soo... sorry. Thought I'd think that the full BP team celebi would have Sub + Recover, not Sub > Recover. CM / Sub / Recover / BP
  17. Pocket

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    I remember my first prototype of this team kicked ass with Conkeldurr as a recipient, so you may want to start from there, jc104. Though I passed Conkeldurr SpD boosts, not Atk boosts, so it will be a big phat nuke after setting up Bulk Up.

    Metagross sounds like a boss SD recipient, although Celebi and Metagross both hate facing Skarmory and Heatran / Fire-types. Magnezone and Rain support could come in handy here. Metagross's Clear Body means Atk boosts wont be stolen by Intimidate, and Metagross's access to Agility makes it a great end-game sweeper.

    Substitute is actually really helpful in passing offensive boosts safely to your recipient. Celebi can wash away status, but not your recipient. There were many times where I had Celebi out; the opponent switched to Ferrothorn as my Celebi used sub; and I set up CMs, NP, etc and BP while the Ferrothorn is being a sitting duck.
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    OK I can't really be bothered to test out every single possible reciever, since there are so many of them. With the exception of Keldeo, I really do believe that SD boosts are equal to, if not slightly better than, NP boosts, but I'm becoming increasingly sure that not using Keldeo with this set is just a bad idea. Just use Keldeo. Put some other mediocre recievers in as well, but they will have to be special attackers because Keldeo is. Not because they're more effective than the physical recievers.

    This also means that I'm fairly sure CM should be relegated to AC as well. The fact that Keldeo can make some use of it lets it be competitive with SD boosts, which are otherwise largely better.

    edit: also, should giga drain be in front of psychic, or the other way round?
  19. alexwolf

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    Psychic, as otherwise you lose to SD Breloom, which is a big deal. Most Water-types don't want to stay in against Celebi anyway, out of the two Rock-types in OU one is hit harder by Psychic (Terrakion) and the other doesn't mind Giga Drain anyway (Tyranitar) and the only Ground-types that are weak to Giga Drain don't take too much damage from it anyway and have reliable recovery (Hippowdon) or just outspeed and OHKO Celebi (Mamoswine).

    As for why i think that CM should remain as a slash after NP, it is because Keldeo still can take advantage of those CM boosts and it remains the ideal receiver. Not only this, but Calm Mind can help Celebi deal with certain threats that it checks, such as Trick Room Reuniclus, Life Orb Agility Thundurus-T, and even Choice Specs Politoede locked into Ice Beam. If using Psyhic, Celebi would be unable to switch into those threats and setup on them with Nasty Plot while with Calm Mind it is entirely possible to do so. SD offers zero defensive merits to Celebi, unlike Calm Mind, while also lacking the ideal receiver that is called Keldeo, and thus deserves to stay in AC.
  20. ginganinja

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    jc104, ik your busy and shit, but can you perhaps update this with changes, or pass this on to someone else who will work on this?
  21. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Sorry about that. I just find it really hard to check these forums any more because of the change in appearance. I don't think anything needs changing except for removing landorus mentions.

    I'll get to this as soon as I can after it's been approved.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  22. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Agreeing with alexwolf, and pushing for the CM slash. Sometimes it comes down to personal preference, however I know several people that have used CM Celebi successfully, and the bulk Calm Mind gives you, both allows you to accumulate possibly more boosts, but you can also pass to a sweeper with a boosting move, and pull off a double boost. Like, not the best example, but Flame Charge Heatran could pull off a +1 +1 +1 when baton passed those boosts, Thundurus-T likes them for an agility, shit, I even tried passing it to a Poison Heal Gliscor just to avoid my sub getting broken by most special attacks. See alexwolfs post for more reasons as to why I would prefer seeing Calm Mind as a slash. (Slashed second obviously)
    Pocket likes this.
  23. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I don't think there's any reason to go 404 HP (ie, divisible by 4, taking more SR damage). I'd go down to 240 HP and throw the rest in DEF. I've been using this set for ages, and while it's lost some clout with Lando-I gone, still an invaluable set.

    edit: Isn't CM better for a timid Passer though? I'd imagine if I wanted a CM passer I'd EV and play it differently. You're losing half the value of getting CM's if you are playing something slow (you want to throw up the boost before getting hit by the incoming hit, and CM special defensive boosts make it easier for the Pokemon being switched in by pass).

    From my experience, 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpD Timid is still plenty bulky against most rain teams.
  24. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Fine, you have your CM slash.

    I do actually see what you mean, Chou, regarding the CM passer, but I've said a number of times that you wont be using baton pass every time you come in, and bearing in mind that NP is the primary slash anyway I'll add that to AC.

    Regarding the 404 HP thing, it's not divisible by 8 (and leaves the same remainder when divided by 16), so I don't see a problem. Only matters if they set up three layers of spikes. 248 HP might be marginally better, but not enough to justify explaining it in the comments.
  25. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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