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Gen 2 Celebi listed as uber by accident?

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by SubSmokeX, Feb 26, 2010.

  1. SubSmokeX

    SubSmokeX

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    So I don't know that much about GSC but I don't see how Celebi is powerful enough to be in uber. It's got some great stats but it's moveset doesn't really seem uber. And even though it has some good resistances it has 7 weaknesses and one of those is a double weakness. So did they make a mistake and just haven't fixed it yet or what?
  2. jumpluff

    jumpluff princess
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    It is ├╝ber. Hidden Power + everything else, maybe? I don't know, but I do know there was Hidden Power controversy. In short, I don't know specifically why, but I do not it isn't a msitake.
  3. cantab

    cantab

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    My guess is no-one really looked at it.

    It's hoped that Shoddy 2 will support all 4 gens. Once that happens there could be some older gen suspect testing.

    But there is also an interesting issue I see with RBY and GSC. Because different languages could neither trade with each other nor battle each other, there should be different regional rules. The differences would be event Pokemon and moves. Celebi can be obtained by a glitch in English GSC - were that not the case, Celebi would be illegal in English GSC play even in Ubers, assuming the principle of 'adhere to what is possible ingame' is upheld.
  4. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    cantab: Pokemon obtained through glitches have been allowed (Shaymin and Darkrai in early DP) so the reason Celebi was uber was due to how the players felt about it back then.
  5. cantab

    cantab

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    Yeah, I know it is allowed. What I'm saying is if that glitch did not exist, then Celebi would be illegal in 'English GSC'.
  6. Xia

    Xia aka Lone Gansel
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    But it did, so it's not. I'm not sure what's left to argue here cantab.
  7. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    Celebi's status has been debated throughout its existence in GSC. at first it was considered uber, then it was allowed for a while, then it returned to the uber ranks.

    I'm not going to get into yet another GSC Celebi debate (since it always resurfaces), but if you'd like to read about it, look here. I don't know if my opinion has changed on this, but when I have more time I'll comment further.
  8. Deucalion2

    Deucalion2

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    In light of the discussion over Salamence, Garchomp et al, I find some of the comments supporting Celebi's ban in GSC quite amusing, especially the proliferation of "Celebi has no hard-counters, so it should be banned". Simpler days...
  9. Borat

    Borat

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    I don't think the "hard counter" argument was from anyone credible. Take it with a grain of salt.

    And that same person said Snorlax HAD a hard counter, further discrediting his post.

    Celebi can be argued from on both sides. The uber criteria comes from a combination of good stats + good movepool. Celebi only has great stats, which means it doesn't meet the criteria. However, others argue that for what Celebi is meant to do, its movepool is perfect. And it really is.

    And "throwing HP Bug stuff" isn't really a legitimate reason to unban it. You need something more. I'm neutral on this stance.

    If you want a tier of what should be banned and what shouldn't, it should be based on usability. And that list looks something like this:

    1. Mew
    2a. Mewtwo
    2b. Snorlax with LK
    3. Snorlax
    4. Lugia
    5. Celebi
    6. Suicune

    Lugia vs Snorlax is debatable though. Snorlax is definitely better in the current OU environment, but in a no-holds-barred (ubers allowed) battle, Lugia is better for its walling capabilities.

    Ho-oh doesn't even make this list. It's THAT bad.
  10. Bynine

    Bynine

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    Uh, whoops, didn't catch that last bit.

    Well, Celebi does have some major weaknesses, but a large chunk of OU is Normal and Electric, with some Water, Grass, and Psychic types thrown in. There is Jynx, Umbreon, and Charizard, but they're scarcely popular choices..
  11. Mountain Dewgong

    Mountain Dewgong

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    I had a legal Celebi on my pokemon gold English game. I remember going to a nintendo event for it in Australia, surely America had similar events?
  12. Arch

    Arch

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    Oh God another one of those "Ho-Oh is really bad just cause."

    Noobs like this are the reason why Ho-Oh has such a poor reputation, he's hard to fit on a team but with that almost broken Sacred Fire STAB he shouldn't just be forgotten about.

    Blissey > Everything Snorlax.
    Lugia > Everything Snorlax.
    Skarmbliss > Lugia
  13. gene

    gene GENE
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    while i think he's underrating lugia and especially ho-oh, blissey is in no way "better" than snorlax. obviously blissey is better at stalling and taking special hits, but can blissey knock every other standard the fuck out? absolutely not.
  14. Borat

    Borat

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    lol, Arch. Funny guy. You've lost any and all credibility.

    And mentioning Skarmbliss just screams inexperience.

    @g80: I'm not underrating Lugia, nor Ho-Oh. What is it exactly that Lugia can do other than wall the shit out of stuff? Mixed sweeper? Cursegia? Please. If all current teams replaced their Snorlax with Lugia, I'd probably never lose another battle.
  15. gene

    gene GENE
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    i wouldn't consider them as replacements for snorlax. lugia is practically unkillable and would make things like suicune obsolete. ho-oh can be a dangerous mixed sweeper.
  16. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    this isn't RSE or DPP, unless you have a strong physical STAB move (or Cross Chop) you're not really going to make a claim as a dangerous mixed sweeper. Ho-oh of course has awesome stats, but it has so many conflicting problems:

    1. awesome HP and Special Defense, but weak to the two most popular special attacks along with a quad weakness to Rock attacks (GSC has never had an uber metagame, but you'd have to figure that Tyranitar would be a big player in it)
    2. it has a great attack that it could boost with Curse, but you only have two moveslots left, not to mention Charizard can both set up quicker than Ho-oh AND is faster than Ho-oh.
    3. Sacred Fire, like Fire Blast, has 5 PP. burns are pretty meaningless in GSC since everything has Rest and Heal Bell is common. plus, Sacred Fire has 100 base power--I'd use Flamethrower before Sacred Fire. Ho-oh's Special Attack (318) is also nothing extraordinary--Charizard's is 316, for example, Raikou's is 328. it does learn Thunder(bolt) which is helpful, but if we're using ubers, unSTAB Thunder(bolt) isn't doing shit to Lugia (or Tyranitar).
    4. this is still GSC. stats favor Defense. there is no Calm Mind. nothing is going to get OHKO'd. or even 2HKO'd.

    if you want to sweep with Ho-oh, honestly your best option would be the simple Curse/Rest/Return/Whirlwind--you could use Recover if you have Heal Bell I guess. but if we were in ubers, why not just use Lugia who has fewer weaknesses?

    Ho-oh is basically Moltres with uber Special Defense. both have good Attack scores, but no attacks from which to benefit. both have the same Speed and Defense, mediocre among the legendaries/ubers. Moltres has higher Special Attack, even. I wouldn't bat an eye if Ho-oh was allowed in the OU environment.
  17. cantab

    cantab

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    Sounds like the real issue then isn't "why is Celebi Uber?" but "why is Ho-oh Uber?"
  18. Bynine

    Bynine

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    From havoc's explanation it seems that Ho-Oh isn't really uber material (in GSC) at all...

    And maybe Celebi isn't either?
  19. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    don't capitalize the "h" please, I'm like chaos when it comes to that.

    though I'll give opinions, I'm not going to advocate that Ho-oh, Lugia, Celebi, or anything else be unbanned/banned/whatever. GSC just doesn't have enough people playing, in my opinion, to definitively decide to change rules that have been set in stone for (literally) years and years. the thread I linked to earlier is almost 3 years old (Jesus, I'm old), and even then the Celebi ban was pretty longstanding.

    even if Smogon changed its stance and allowed something that was previously banned...what would that realistically change? if there was still a big community playing GSC, it might be warranted, but I feel if we (the pokemon community) were to consider some big change in the "standard" GSC rules (unbanning Ho-oh, for example), we would have to do a "suspect test" process like the ones performed in RSE (Latias, Wobbuffett) and DPP (Garchomp, whatever else).

    but there just aren't enough people playing GSC to make that kind of process feasible and/or conclusive--in my opinion, we'd have to have people that really know their shit about GSC, meaning they were probably around when GSC WAS the most recent metagame. how many of those people are out there now? how many of those would actually want to investigate this? the answer to both is "not many."
  20. Borat

    Borat

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    The criteria of "uber" has long been just statistically. And it made sense back then... 2002. By now, they're ubers because... that's just the way it is. That's the way it always has been. In terms of sheer usability and practicality, and a more realistic tier list, would be the one I provided earlier. Like havoc said, Ho-oh struggles to maintain status as best Fire Pokemon, let alone a uber. Sacred Fire is good, but given the way GSC plays out, 5 PP just isn't enough. And Suicune/Raikou shrug off burns.

    @g80: Right, and as far as team building goes, a unstoppable offensive force is far more dangerous than an unpenetrable wall? That would make Snorlax a tier above Lugia. Subsequently, I still don't understand how I'm underrating Lugia.
  21. cantab

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    @havoc: It's hoped that with Shoddy 2 it will have GSC (and RBY and RSE) support. With GSC supported on the best-known and most popular simulator, there might be an upswing in interest that could make proper testing practical.
  22. Chomper The Sharptooth

    Chomper The Sharptooth

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  23. Toby

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    There was a UK event to win celebi. As a tour, you entered, and had to beat a standard Stadium 2 match with rentals against hard difficulty CPU. If you won, you got a goody bag, containing a copy of pokemon silver with 20 celebi on it.

    Thats right, sounds too good, but it was like that. The premise was to trade all the celebi to your firends, send the game back, and get a certificate for it. But, me and most others just kept the game and the celebis :D
  24. gene

    gene GENE
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    i don't see how it's fair to tier pokemon based on the presumption that offense is more valuable than defense (or vise versa). suicune is common, and lugia outclasses it in every way. if lugia was allowed, we'd just have a megasuicune flying around walling everything. maybe stalling power doesn't technically win games, but you're disregarding the importance of support.
  25. green_flash

    green_flash

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    suicune does not wall ho-oh at all though. ho-oh is faster, thunder soundly beats suicune (42-49%) and surf from suicune can't do _a shit_ to ho-oh (35-41 and ho-oh has recover). so basically, as odd as it may seem, ho-oh can go as far as countering suicune, actually.

    tbolt from raikou does not 2hko ho-oh, either, and earthquake from ho-oh 2hkos raikou. so ho-oh does not counter raikou, but it wins 1vs1 if raikou lacks thunder (also, thunder from raikou is not a guaranteed 2hko, even if it hits twice!).

    ttar isn't that good of a counter, too. sacred fire ruins it. earthquake does a shitload of damages.

    so all in all i can see ho-oh being beatable in ou, but not by those (raikou with reflect being an exception).

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