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Celebi (Placeholder)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by StarGengar, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. StarGengar

    StarGengar

    Joined:
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    [​IMG]
    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/251.shtml


    Stared with the comments (man Celebi has a LOT of sets). This may take a little more time that I would want, so please be patient.
    Still quite far to be written, so post any suggestion you want

    *Swords Dance set eliminated, as with Celebi´s mediocre physical movepool he wasnt really hitting anything hard, and is outclassed in every way by the Nasty Plot set (bar the priority of Sucker Punch, that´s still unreliable)



    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    [Overview]

    • Possibily the most versatile grass type, Celebi is capable of fit many different roles (wall, sweeper, supporter and batton paser), thanks to its wide movepool coupled with 100 base stats all around and reliable recovery
    • Wide support movepool with Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, Dual Screens, Stealth Rock and U-Turn just to name a few.
    • Acces to Calm Mind, Swords Dance and the rare Nasty Plot make Celebi a fearsome, bulky set up sweeper, being also capable of batton passing those boosts
    • Its grass typing, bulk and powerful Leaf Storm makes Celebi a great check to bulky waters like Burungeru, Suicune and Vaporeon
    • A total of 7 crippling weaknesses to very common attacking types, most notably to ice, fire, dark and bug attacks, with useful resistances to ground, water, fighting and electric attacks
    • Faces serious competition with Birijion and Nattorie for a grass type pokemon for most teams, both having more specialized stats and better defensive and offensive types
    [SET]
    name: Lead
    move 1: Magic Coat
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    ability: Natural Cure
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • This is the set that separates Celebi from other grass types.
    • Stealth Rock support is always welcome, and Celebi enjoys the increased damage taken by fire and flying types that could absorb its grass attacks.
    • Magic Coat can reflect Taunt and, more importantly, opposing entry hazards.
    • For its STAB, Leaf Storm is Celebi´s strongest grass attack, and the -2 Spa wont be a problem, as Celebi is likely to U-turn after use it.
    • U-turn helps in scouting, and will often give you a free switch in a special wall or a fire type waiting to absorb your grass attack.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Giga Drain is an option to keep Celebi alive for longer, but after he sets up rocks and (hopefully) stops the foe´s hazards, his job is pretty much done. Psychic can be used too, but then you are defenseless against any Tyranitar, who who can pursuit you in the U-turn
    • With max Spe, Celebi can outrun non scarved Sazandora and Ononokusu, so he use Stealth Rock or U-turn to get some damage. It also ties with max speed Ulgamoth, Salamence, Zapdos, Jirachi and Manaphy, (and bar Jirachi, Celebi can cripple those by SR or Leaf Storm)
    [TEAMMATES AND COUNTERS]

    • Fire types in general appreciate Celebi´s capability to take down bulky waters (just as an example, Bold max Hp/Def Burungeru is OHKO by Leaf Storm, as well as Suicune if it has not used Calm Mind. Heatran deserves a special mention, as he has very good synergy with Celebi and is often walled by bulky waters
    • Celebi often lurks fire types like Heatran or even Blaziken, and with U-turn catching them on the switch, pokemon like Dragon Dance Gyarados and Tyranitar will have a free turn to set-up a sweep
    • Heatran, Ulgamoth and Zapdos can take Celebi´s attacks all day and KO back, so the best Celebi can do is lure them in switching while U-turning away
    • Skarmory, unlike many hazards set uppers, takes nothing from Celebi attacks and is likely to set up hazards at Celebi´s face, so the only thing Celebi can do to Skarmory is bounce back the hazards with Magic Coat once, as after that Skarmory will surely Brave Bird
    [SET]

    name: Nasty Plot
    move 1: Nasty Plot
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Psychic / Psycho Shock
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Natural Cure
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • 100 base SpAtk and Spe are just enough to make Celebi an effective Nasty Plot abuser
    • With Giga Drain, Life Orb and Nasty Plot, Celebi will be healing large chunks of health just for attacking, nullifying the LO recoil
    • Psychic is Celebi´s strongest special move (bar Leaf Storm), but Psycho Shock is a solid option, as at +2 it is always a 2HKO on Evolution Stone Chansey and Blissey (2 of this set biggest counters)
    • The last move is tricky, as if you choose HP Fire, you are walled by Heatran, but with Earth Power you lose to Skarmory and have a harder time with Nattorei.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    • Another option is to exchange Psychic / Psycho Shock for the move you didn´t use in the last spot. You lose your strongest attack, but Giga Drain is often used more, and the coverage let Celebi take care of anything resistant to it.
    [TEAMMATES AND COUNTERS]

    • Celebi despites steel types like Nattorei, Heatran and Skarmory, as even if running the apropiated attack he can lose to them in many ways, making fighting types like Roobushin and Blaziken excellent partners to Celebi. Blaziken also hates bulky waters, who are Celebi´s lunch.
    • Dragonite, Latias and Salamence can take Celebi´s attacks all day and set up on him, so bulky water types with Ice Beam, and even Ice Shard users make good teammates for Celebi. Water types also share a good synergy with Celebi.
    • Celebi resists most priority attacks (only Bullet Punch, Quick Attack and Extreme Speed are neutral), but has no way to boost its average speed, and faster sweepers (like Gengar and Scarf Sazandora) often carry super effective attacks on Celebi, so is vital to take them out before attempting a sweep
    [SET]


    name: Tinkerbell
    move 1: Leaf Storm
    move 2: Thunder Wave
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Psychic / U-turn
    move 4: Recover / Rest
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Natural Cure
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Spa / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • This set combines Celebi´s support capabilities with his high ofensive power
    • Leaf Storm is your strongest attack, and will likely 2HKO anything that doesn´t resist it and its not named Blissey / Chansey
    • With Thunder Wave, Celebi will aid himself and the whole team, as no attacker

    [SET]


    name: Support wall
    move 1: Heal Bell / U-turn
    move 2: Thunder Wave
    move 3: U-turn / Leaf Storm
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    ability: Natural Cure
    evs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 128 SpDef / 32 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • With this set, Celebi has many ways of helping its teammates:
    • Heal Bell can take of annoying status like paralysis and sleep, aiding the team after a long battle
    • Thunder Wave makes slower and/or set up sweepers life easier (like Ononokusu and Metagross)
    • Finnaly, U-turn gains important momentum for your team, and with Celebi´s average speed stat, it will let fragile sweepers come unharmed. Leaf Storm is a realiable STAB attack, and makes you able to deal significant damage even with 0 SpAtk evs
    • With 100 base in HP and both defenses, Celebi will easily do its jobs and recover any taken damage
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • The evs listed are for maximizing Celebi´s walling capabilities, and 32 Spe evs are needed to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar by 1 point
    • Worry Seed is an interesting option, as many OU pokemon are reliant of its ability to make their job (like Guts Roobushin, Rankurusu, Doryuuzu and all swift swimmers), and other than Tangrowth and some Roserades, most grass pokemon are offensive oriented, and can´t afford to use a moveslot on it.
    [TEAMMATES AND COUNTERS]

    • Once half of your opponent´s team is paralized, slow, bulky sweepers like Metagross, Tyranitar and Zuruzukin will have a happy day setting up and becoming deadly behemots
    • Celebi can use its U-turn to scout switch-ins and send counters to the opponent´s pokemon, often giving a free turn to your monster to set-up/deal some good damage. In this department, Heatran and Gyarados make great mates to this Celebi, as they appreciate the slowed pace and Gyarados despites status (healed by Heal Bell). With them together you also create a pretty solid fire/water/grass core.
    [SET]


    name: Life Orb
    move 1: Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
    move 2: Psychic
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Rock
    move 4: Recover
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Natural Cure
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Unlike the Nasty Plot set, this set can launch powerful, right-of-the bat assaults with Life Orb boosted Leaf Storms and Psychics, leaving in very bad shape anything that doesn´t resist both
    • The Hidden Power of choice will cover either the steel and grass or the fire and flying types that resist Leaf Storm (namely Skarmory, Nattorei, Zapdos, Voltolos and Ulgamoth)
    • Once the damage is done, you can Recover off the LO recoil and escape, wating for another assault. Against stall teams, recover will help Celebi stay as long as it need to take walls down
    • With max speed, you tie with all other base 100 max speed pokemon, being able to OHKO Manaphy and Ulgamoth (if HP Rock is used), and all others are severely harmed by either Leaf Storm or Psychic/Hidden Power Rock
    [ADITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Giga Drain remains as an option, as it can heal off the LO recoil, but the damage output is very low when compared with Leaf Storm, making the latter the superior choice.
    • Earth Power, while more powerful than Hidden Power, is not a reliable choice, as most ground-weak pokemon (like Heatran and Doryuuzu) now carry Baloons.
    [TEAMMATES AND COUNTERS]

    • Blissey is the biggest stop to this set, as Celebi does nothing to her, and if Blissey carries Ice Beam or Toxic, he will lose soon or late
    • With Hidden Power Fire, Celebi can take care of Jirachi, Nattorei and Bronzong, but Skarmory can survive any attack and OHKO back with Brave Bird-or even set up if its a specially defensive Skarmory
    • Fighting types like Blaziken, Zuruzukin and Robuushin can crush almost any special wall that can stop Celebi, making them good partners when attempting to sweep
    [SET]

    name: Choice
    move 1: Leaf Storm
    move 2: Trick / Psychic
    move 3: Earth Power / U-turn
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid
    ability: Natural Cure
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • With Choice Specs, Celebi will do inmense damage with Leaf Storm (wich has the same power as a Draco Meteor), denting any switch-in even if resisted
    • As an advantage to other Choiced attackers like Sazandora, Celebi can Trick his item on a wall (like Blissey and Nattorie) to severely cripple it.
    • U-turn is used on the Scarf set, while the Specs set use Eart Power and Hidden Power to get the best possible coverage
    • The last slot will cover either steel or dragon types. This is an important choice because without HP Fire you will be absolutely walled by Skarmory and friends, but with HP Ice, you can hit hard Specs Sazandora and Ononokusu (both outspeed by Celebi, and Scarf/Dragon Dance variants with your own Scarf)
    [ADITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • When using any Choice item, always run a Timid nature to either tie with base 100 speed pokemon when using Specs, ar to outspeed Scarf Sazandora when using a Scarf.
    [TEAMMATES AND COUNTERS]

    • While most Nattorie, Skarmory and Bronzong hate being Tricked with a Choice item, they will be a problem if you want Celebi to sweep with the Specs, so fire types like Heatran, Blaziken and Rotom-H that can take out them are really appreciated.
    • If you have HP Fire, you will have no options to hit dragon types (mainly Latias, Latios, Salamence and Sazandora), making Weavile and Mamoswine great partners for Celebi, as both can sweep a weakened team with their high attack and priority in Ice Shard (hovewere be warry that they share a fire weakness with Celebi). Bulky waters like Suicune and Vaporeon can also be good partners to Celebi, as they tend to carry Ice Beam and have a good type synergy with him.
    [SET]

    name: Batton Pass
    move 1: Calm Mind / Nasty Plot
    move 2: Batton Pass
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Giga Drain / Grass Knot
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    ability: Natural Cure
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef


    [SET]


    name: Perish Song
    move 1: Perish Song
    move 2: Leaf Storm / Protect
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    ability: Natural Cure
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • The premise of this set is to force many switches with Perish Song and use U-turn to get a favorable match ups for your set up sweepers
    • Leaf Storm will be your way to dish damage out, and even when uninvested in SpAtk, Celebi will net a good hit before your foe switches. Protect, while making you a Taunt bait, is useful for this set in stalling the second turn of Perish Song, as the opponent must switch or let his pokemon die in the third turn
    • With Recover you will stay long enough to really annoy your opponent, and if he does not carry super effective attacks, you will often put him in the tight spot of attacking or die
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    [TEAMMATES AND COUNTERS]

    • With the opponent needing to switch or sacrifice his pokemon, entry hazards are the best partners to this set, and Tentacruel, Omastar and Heatran can set a wide array of hazards while having a pretty good synergy with Celebi.
    • Ghost types who block Rapid Spin, while not a must, are welcome to keep those Spikes and Toxic Spikes intact. Desukan and Burungeru are the best available defensive ghost types, while Gengar and Shandera love to get free hits without getting hurt at all
    • Literally any set up sweeper loves to get free turns, and fragile sweepers like Lucario, Doryuuzu and Ulgamoth just need to get a matchup against something without a SE attack to use Nasty Plot/Swords Dance/Butterfly Dance and become demons
    • Bulky sweepers can survive enough to set up, but some of them need to keep themselves healthy to pass trough their otherwise counters. Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Sword Dance Garchomp are examples of bulky hitters with no ways of recovery, and both can devastate teams if their specific counters cant KO them fast enough
    [Team Options]

    [Optional Changes]

    [Counters]
  2. min min

    min min

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    Offensive CM is outclassed by Nasty Plot, unless I'm missing something here like CM Kerudio. Life Orb should be a variant of Recover+3 Attacks since they're pretty much the same, just mention one or the other in the AC.

    Lastly you forgot Baton Pass. Celebi still remains an excellent passer of Calm Mind, and is one of the few passers of Nasty Plot. Of course, MH Volbeat will outclass it in every way, but it doesn't exist. Celebi can also pass Swords Dance and Growth if I remember correctly.
  3. StarGengar

    StarGengar

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    I cant belive i missed Baton Pass

    The difference betwen calm mind a nsaty plot would be a more bulky spread, but thinking it of, ranku outclasses celebi in all ways for a calm mind set... ill still include it in the baton pass

    I will include life orb in the recover set, and yes another life orb set is redundant

    Thanks for pointing me those things (did i REALLY miss baton pass? >_>).
  4. Ahhhhhh......Clefable.

    Ahhhhhh......Clefable.

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    How does Rankurusu outclass Celebii? As far as I can see, neither can even learn Nasty Plot anyway.

    Forgive me if I'm overlooking something.
  5. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    Celebi gets Nasty Plot from a Japanese movie event.
  6. Plusle

    Plusle

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    I made a resere for this. You can have it though.
  7. ungulateman

    ungulateman

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    I have the first reservation on Celebi, but I'm handing it over to the OP. Just a heads up.
  8. StarGengar

    StarGengar

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    If you have played 5 gen and faced (or used) a ranku, you should know hes probably the best calm mind user in this meta thanks to magic guard, recover and his awesome bulk.

    But celebi still deserves a mention for cm I think
  9. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

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    Celebi's biggest selling points over Rankurusu are Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, bettr overall defenses and a slightly better movepool. Empasise this point in the analysis when you start writing it.

    Good luck.
  10. StarGengar

    StarGengar

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    Ill point its pros and cons against all others psychic and grass brethens.

    And thanks
  11. Luckystars

    Luckystars

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    nice start, and you put an L after the giga drain(L) on the life orb set
  12. StarGengar

    StarGengar

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    Double thanks
  13. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Remove the slash with Rest on the Life Orb set; there is little reason why Celebi should run Rest when it already has reliable recovery in Recover. With Rest, Celebi will be a sitting duck for 2-3 turns, giving sweepers such as Borutorosu and Roobushin a free turn to set up.

    The Perish Song set needs TrapPassing support from Umbreon to work properly. It is also completely outclassed by Bulky Evolution Stone Murkrow, who has access to priority Mean Look, Roost and Perish Song with Mischievous Heart.

    The sets look fine, but now I come to the write-up itself. To be honest, the analysis is full of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes. Therefore, this analysis needs a lot of improvement regarding grammar. Once you are done with the sets, please try and correct the numerous grammatical errors. If, as it is likely, English is not your mother tongue and you need some help, feel free to ask for help. Get on IRC if you want to contact people. Write a skeleton analysis with bullet points instead of paragraph form, so that changes can be made easily instead; and convert your points into paragraphs later.

    I understand that this is your first analysis, so there bound to be a few errors, so don't feel bad about my suggestions.

    I wish you good luck with this analysis.
  14. Sir Azelf

    Sir Azelf

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    Celebi doesnt get Wish...
  15. Fizz

    Fizz

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    TrapPassing no longer exists; Baton Pass no longer passes Mean Look.
  16. StarGengar

    StarGengar

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    As you said, english isnt my mother tounge and i knew i would have a lot of gramatical errors. Ive seen those skeletons and i think ill make the rest on the analysis that way, thanks for the suggestion

    My bad, i confused wish with Healing Wish... sorry for that
  17. Banryu

    Banryu

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    I believe the thinking with Rest was in relation to Natural Cure; that is, use Rest and switch out to something else. The problem of giving someone a chance to set up still exists, of course, and Recover is better in many situations, but being able to heal 100% HP and be rid of sleep almost immediately via switching is decent.

    This analysis looks like it's on-track and doing pretty well. I'm a little iffy on all the sets between Tinkerbell and the BP sets, (seems like a bit much) but for now I'm sure it's fine. The content of the sets looks pretty good, so keep up the good work.
  18. Alan

    Alan

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    Calm Mind should be there. Its not outclassed by Nasty Plot, it functions entirely differently.

    Swords Dance is incredibly gimmicky at best, I wouldn't even say it deserves writing...

    On the Choice Set, put Trick where Psychic is and slash Psychic and Earth Power, Choice Psychic is _incredibly_ dumb, since Tyranitar is just as common as it ever was and it can just come in and Pursuit you. Not to mention it also gives Pants Lizard a free turn to set up and _insert Dark-Type_ a chance.

    Also, to be honest, the Nasty Plot set should have Recover in there somewhere. Thats what makes Celebi so great, it can boost up and Recover to not die.

    Every set with a defensive spread should probably have 32 Spe EVs to outpace Jolly TTar.
  19. Banryu

    Banryu

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    I think Calm Mind and Swords Dance are considered to be outclassed-ish by Virizion, who gets both moves and slightly better coverage with its own dual STABs (and access to Taunt is pretty cool), but Celebi has better offenses and better physical bulk... seems to me like they're simply different, rather than one outclassing the other. Both deserve a spot on the set IMO, although I agree that Nasty Plot is quite a bit better than both.

    Seconding the Trick slash in front of Psychic. Choice set should look like:
    - Leaf Storm
    - Earth Power / HP Fire
    - HP Fire / Ice / etc / Psychic
    - Trick / Psychic
    (Stuff in grey is a possible other slash, but I don't think the extra slashes are particularly necessary myself.)

    I'm inclined to disagree a bit about Recover on the NP set, though. Grass type sweepers are always coming up short when it comes to coverage, and Celebi isn't having any favors done for it by restricting its offenses by a further slot. I liked this set because it combined Recover and Grass STAB into one slot with Giga Drain; Recover could always be slashed behind it, but I myself happen to think that Giga Drain is the superior option.
  20. Snunch

    Snunch
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    No mention of u-turn in the choice sets? It's one of those moves that can just be slapped on nearly every pokemon and work well. "Tinkerbell" should be renamed to "physically defensive"; the two sets were completely different in gen 4, and still are. Also, get rid of the wall set. I don't see any reason to use it over the standard physically defensive set from gen 4.
  21. StarGengar

    StarGengar

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    Taking all suggestions but the recover slash on the NP set. As charmander said, a grass type like Celebi will attract too many SE hits, that a defensive Celebi could afford to take, but not a sweeper, and anyway, when would a NP Celebi use recover? Not to mention the coverage you lose.

    Ill add U-turn, and yes i just realized tha Tinkerbell didnt looked like... well the Tinkerbel 4 gen set. Im fusing them both in a sole support set
  22. TorchicBlaziken

    TorchicBlaziken

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    Nattorei is spelled with an E before the I.
  23. ARandomDude

    ARandomDude

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    No Tinkerbell?

    Also, you should emphasize how Celebi can troll non-scarf Sazandora (who, with resistance to Leaf Storm/Grass Knot/HP Fire and immunities to Earth Power/Psychic, will be switching in a lot) by running max/near-max speed and Thunder Wave or U-Turn.
  24. StarGengar

    StarGengar

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    I see, thanks for that

    lol

    I already mentioned Saz here, but why not?
  25. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    What are the EVs accomplishing on the "Support Wall" set that Celebi wouldn't normally do? It isn't particularly threatened by Thunderbolts, Surfs, and Grass attacks by virtue of its typing, while the added defense could definitely help.

    The standard physically defensive set should go in its place, IMO.

    Celebi@Leftovers
    Bold; 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

    Recover
    Giga Drain / Grass Knot
    Heal Bell / Thunder Wave / Leech Seed
    Psychic / Hidden Power Fire

    This would be the set. With Celebi's Psychic typing making it a solid check to fighting types (unlike Nattorei), Psychic merits an option in the last slot, and this Celebi carries considerable physical bulk.

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