1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Celebi (Special Attacker + U-turn)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by AccidentalGreed, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    So I'm looking at the statistics, then the fourth generation Celebi analysis. I decide to give this a whirl, and I think: "Why did we ignore this?"

    oh that's right Excadrill was immune to Thunder Wave and used X-scissor. Great.

    Status: Written

    QC Approvals (3/3): (PK Gaming) (Pocket) (Wilson46)

    GP Approvals (2/2): (Engineer Pikachu) (Shame That + Sir)
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    I'm officially revoking your right to use a counter.

    [SET]
    name: Navi (Non-Choiced Attacker)
    move 1: Leaf Storm
    move 2: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Earth Power / U-turn
    move 4: U-turn / Recover
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 176 HP / 152 SpA / 180 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Although Celebi is commonly seen using Nasty Plot to pose a threat, it is perfectly capable of functioning offensively without the use of boosting moves, as proven by the TinkerBell set. Like its sister set, Navi also operates on a hit-and-run basis, but the main difference between the two is this set's emphasis on utility and momentum rather than support. Moreover, Navi isn't quite as straightforward as Tinkerbell in terms of options; if you want it to function well on its team, a little mixing and matching between Celebi's moves is required. This largely depends on the offensive support its teammates can provide it. The most important move on this set is arguably U-turn, which turns Celebi into a valuable "glue" Pokemon with solid defenses, typing, and offensive prowess. U-turn also allows Celebi to scout out potential counters and switch-ins during a turn, giving you the opportunity to respond depending on the opponent's actions.</p>

    <p>Besides the mandatory Leaf Storm, which is used for initial power, Celebi has to choose between a few moves in the last three slots. A Hidden Power is mandatory due to Celebi's limited coverage, but choosing one will leave Celebi susceptible to certain Pokemon—Dragon-types should you choose Hidden Power Fire, and Steel-types neutral to Fire if you choose Hidden Power Ice. In the third slot, Earth Power provides coverage against a number of Fire-types and other Steel-types, especially Heatran. Remember that U-turn gives Celebi a means of escaping such Pokemon and switching to a check or counter of your own. Recover can be used for recovery against repeated attacks and Life Orb recoil, but using it costs a valuable coverage move. A set with three attacks and a recovery may seem obvious, but Shaymin can perform the same set (with arguably less exploitable weaknesses to boot) and not using U-turn goes against the nature of this set. Of course, when using both Recover and U-turn, Celebi will require more offensive support, so take these factors as you will.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread provided, along with a Modest nature, allows Celebi to outrun all neutral base 90s, while yielding three more Special Attack points than it would with a Timid nature and maximized Special Attack. If you are considering using other EV spreads, keep in mind that because of U-turn (which requires Celebi to be fast) and the lack of Thunder Wave, this set requires more speed than usual. An EV spread that can give Celebi a mix of power, bulk, and Speed is ideal for upholding Celebi's role as a utility Pokemon. Of course, Celebi can simply maximize both Special Attack and Speed with either the Modest or Timid natures, at the cost of bulk. Long story short, the first thing you should consider is which targets Celebi should outrun, and the rest of the EVs and nature comes down to personal preference.</p>

    <p>Leftovers is recommended over Life Orb because Celebi often takes repeated hits, and the beneficial recovery can help Celebi in disguising itself as a defensive set and luring in targets. Life Orb, of course, can be used for the additional power, and should be complemented with Recover. Other than the item choice, there are several other move options to consider. Celebi has the distinction of being bulky and flexible enough to set up Stealth Rock if your team requires quick entry hazard support. Psychic is decent STAB option for the second or third slots, capable of dealing hard hits to many threats without lowering Celebi's Special Attack. Psychic also hits many threats, such as Conkeldurr, Tentacruel, and Volcarona, harder than its standard options. Last but not least, Baton Pass is also usable over U-turn for escaping Pursuit users more safely, but passing Special Attack decreases from Leaf Storm may prove to be disadvantageous if the receiver is also a special attacker.</p>

    <p>The usual matter of limited coverage also applies to this set, but U-turn somewhat mitigates this issue, as Celebi can identify and scout out possible threats. As a matter of fact, this set works extremely well with "trap" Pokemon; to specify, some of Celebi's biggest checks and counters can be trapped and eliminated by Pokemon with Pursuit, Arena Trap, or Magnet Pull. This is made even better by U-turn, ensuring that your opponent can't outpredict you by shifting Pokemon, therefore making the task of trapping and killing even easier. For instance, many Steel-types, especially Scizor and Skarmory, may attempt to set up on a -2 SpA Celebi, but after Celebi uses U-turn, they may find themselves begging for mercy in the presence of Magnezone (preferably one with Volt Switch to complete the VoltTurn combination). The same situation applies to Dugtrio (for trapping Heatran and Tyranitar) and a Tyranitar or Scizor with Pursuit (for Latias, Latios, and various other Psychic-types). Rapid Spin users are also recommended as teammates, since Celebi will switch in and out repeatedly, and will thus run into entry hazards.</p>
  2. Nova

    Nova Palisades
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,522
    Yes this set is effctive, idk why it's not on site yet. Personally I prefer a bulkier spread of 252 HP / 212 SpA /40 Spd Modest, which is the slowest spread with HP Fire that still outspeeds the standard Gliscor, so it can switch in more but the offensive take is nice too. Btw can you link me to the latest moveset statistics?
  3. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    The moveset statistics...which is sadly a month behind, but I still think it provides valuable info since the only difference is that Deoxys-S was banned (there's issues with the server apparently, but feel free to ask around). As you can see, there's a similar Celebi set that uses U-Turn + Recover, which rubs me the wrong way since, well, TinkerBell exists.

    As for other options, if other will agree, I think a mention for Stealth Rock suffices.
  4. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,303
    isn`t Leaf Storm+Baton Pass kinda stupid when you got U-Turn wich is alot better considering you're not passing any boosts anyway?

    Sure escaping Pursuit is nice, but it really sucks not being able to escape to a special attacker after using Leaf Storm.
  5. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    I guess I'll just list Baton Pass as an "option for escaping Pursuit."
  6. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,312
    U-turn should be the main option imo as Scizor and Tyranitar don't switch into Celebi very often
  7. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,225
    Yeah, I think that Baton Pass should go to the AC. If you use Leaf Storm, the -2 can be really annoying. Of course, you can escape Pursuit, but it will cost your switch in. This would be a cool Volt-Turn set, though. Other than Baton Pass, it looks good!
  8. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
  9. twash

    twash
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,330
    Yeah I've been using this on tons of teams, this Celebi is amazing against all kinds of things. You should really mention Psychic over Earth Power as an alternative, it helps hit a lot of threats for neutral damage and gives Celebi a solid STAB move that won't lower its Special Attack. When you write it up, you should also probably mention that Celebi is especially fantastic on a "trap team" with some of Dugtrio/Magnezone/Tyranitar, who can pretty much remove all of her most popular checks and counters between them (Scizor, Jirachi, Skarmory, Tyranitar, general Fire-types, as well as Ferrothorn and Heatran if Celebi is running HP Ice/Psychic, and the Lati twins). It works even better because of U-turn.

    I don't like Life Orb because I use Celebi to switch in as a Water resist, but I can see its use. That's more personal preference I guess.
  10. Blue_Star

    Blue_Star
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    763
    Pretty good set. I would just mention Psychic in the AC to hit Conkeldurr and Tentacruel much harder, should your team be weak to them.
  11. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    Done and done. Psychic is in the AC, though it can get a slash with enough support.
  12. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,158
    Recover is the best move that Celebi has, as it lets it actually survive against repeated rain Hydro Pumps from Rotom-w or Focus Punches from Breloom. It should be staple in every Celebi set, in my opinion, as Celebi is a defensive Pokemon more than anything.
  13. franky

    franky
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,486
    recover is a must, probably a better option over earth power because u-turn alleviates tran problems. . .

    leaf storm / hp fire or ice sub slash / u-turn / recover

    is your best bet with psychic and earth power for additional comments
  14. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    Okay.
    I trust your word on this since I know you've experimented with it. Passive damage also tends to add up on these kind of attackers (enemy attacks notwithstanding), so Recover's there.

    It really depends on what kind of Celebi suits the team. For instance, I find that the combination of U-turn + Earth Power allows Celebi to scout out Heatran, break its Balloon (if it has one), and if it's still alive, either send in a counter or Earth Power when Celebi comes in again. For myself, I'd like to achieve coverage; however, I'll be sure to mention the perks and downers of using certain combinations of utility moves.
  15. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,249
    Imo, could'nt a Choice Specs also work with this set

    With 3 coverage attacks and U-Turn, this varient is also a great Choice Specs user, as it hits much harder than Life Orb can
  16. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    U-turn has already been mentioned as a potential option on the Choice set on-site.
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    I second twash that Psychic can be a very powerful STAB neutral coverage with Leaf Storm, hitting Infernape, Ninetales, Volcarona, Haxorus, Dragonite, Gengar, Virizion, and Tornadus surprisingly hard.

    I'd lose the U-turn slashed with Earth Power and slash Psychic instead. I'd also remove Recover and mention it in AC. Just makes it more aesthetically pleasing, imo.
  18. MikeDecIsHere

    MikeDecIsHere And the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate.
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,610
    haha I've been using this kind of Celebi for months.

    Anyway, sorry Pocket, but Celebi really wants Recover in order to handle Rain and Volt-Turn combos as efficiently as possible. I would leave it slashed in, but if we're going for pure offensive as the main, then why not just remove the second U-Turn and slash Recover with Earth Power?

    I've been running 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe with Leaf Storm / HP Fire / Recover / U-turn. The bulk makes Celebi a much better switchin to Rotom, as a rain boosted Hydro Pump will hurt like fuck without it. Since Celebi is the best switch in to Ferrothorn for most pivot teams, the bulk over speed is also much more appreciated since it means that Gyro Ball will be doing less damage. 44 Spe is to outspeed Bulky NP Celebi. I've been running Modest max SpA, since it beats SpD Scizor, which the Tinkerbell set will not (iirc, not too sure).

    About Psychic, if Celebi is offensive, it should be slashed in after Earth Power imo. The order should be Earth Power / Psychic / Recover.
  19. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    There's many ways to go about this type of Celebi, so in the writeup, I'll mention that you can mix-and-match depending on what your team needs. Some people like U-turn + Recover, some like U-turn + Three attacks, and for some, maybe a hybrid with different attacks and item. Psychic and Stealth Rock (I've seen Taylor work it) are definitely worth mention.
  20. asterat

    asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    998
    why not just slash on u-turn on the tinkerbell set
  21. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    1. The Tinkerbell wants to run a minimum amount of Speed EVs, whereas players can opt to use a significant amount on this kind of Celebi. Max Speed + Tinkerbell = nono. These sets kinda have different purposes.

    2. It depends on which slot you're referring to for the slash, but the TinkerBell set is a specialized formula. It's supposed to support and hit hard while not caring about resisted attacks thanks to Recover.
  22. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158
    This set is really common now, and i've even seen it in a lot tournament games. Its a bit slashy, but I think we can make an exception here. I think this set could use a better name. All out special attacker or... a custom of name of your choice (within reason) could work. I'd probably call it Navi or Fi, due to how annoying this set is hehe.

    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    I would strongly suggest mentioning the more defensive slower spread 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe, Modest Nature or 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe, Timid Nature under AC so that Celebi has some more usable bulk to sponge Water / Electric / Fighting / Ground / Psychic hits. The former lets Celebi outrun up to Timid SpecsToed (and by extension Dragonite, Gyarados, etc), while the latter lets Celebi check up to SD Lucario. Celebi can outrun Adamant Lucario with Modest Nature, but Timid saves more EVs for HP.

    What about "Offensive Scouter" as its name? Out of all the moves, U-turn is the most unique.
  24. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,684
    Yeah, I'll come up with a good name later unless somebody creative beats me to it.

    That aside, those EV spreads look great, so I'll be sure to give a large mention for them to the AC. Thanks for the first check, PK.
  25. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,158
    I would like to point out that the 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe Timid spread in AC is outclassed by 176 HP / 156 SpA / 176 Spe Modest, which yields 3 more points in SpA and 1 less point in speed. Then again, I don't really see why it would need that extra point because 280 is just enough to outrun Adamant Lucario anyway.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)