Celebi (Ubers analysis)

[mtr]

Status: Awaiting edits and debate about set viability.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/celebi

[SET]
name: Ubers Support Lead
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Recover
move 4: Stealth Rock
item: Lum Berry / Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This Celebi works as a scout for your team, gathering information and perhaps crippling one of your opponent's sweepers. The EVs ensure that you survive an LO Fire Punch from Groudon, a Specs-boosted Ice Beam from Mewtwo, and a Dark Pulse from a lead Darkrai. As the match opens, the recommended course of action is to use Thunder Wave (unless Groudon is leading the opposing team), which will cripple the opponent's lead and make it easy to pick off with a counter from your team. Make a note of the damage you take from the opponent's attack. If you take over 70% from a non-Darkrai lead and see no Life Orb recoil, the opponent was using a Choice Band or Choice Specs, and this information could prove crucial later in the match. If you take less damage from the foe, Thunder Wave and Recover can give you an opportunity to set up Stealth Rock once the opponent is fully paralyzed or upon his switching out.</p>

<p>This Celebi lead can unequivocally defeat lead Kyogres and Groudons. Deoxys-A, Darkrai (the reason for the suggested Lum Berry), and Mewtwo are crippled, but the encounter will leave Celebi heavily weakened. You also lose to Deoxys-S, because it can Taunt you and still set up 2 layers of entry hazards, or just set up 3 layers (Grass Knot is a 3HKO). Your team will need to be constructed with this in mind, knowing that your pokemon will take 25% of their health for switching in. Fortunately, you can remedy this by using a Forretress to use Rapid Spin to clear away the entry hazards and set up on the Ice attacks aimed at Celebi.</p>

<p>Other than Forretress, there is no Pokemon that is highly recommended for use alongside this Celebi. But it is worth noting that this set is designed for use on offensively minded teams, though not necessarily hyperoffensive teams. With this in mind, avoid using Blissey, support Groudon, and Giratina. Giratina-O, on the other hand, is preferable for its ability to handle stall teams, along with minimizing residual damage with Levitate if you are unable to use Rapid Spin in a timely manner.</p>


Known Success:
-Ubers Anti-Lead
*I retested this, and see Project Uber for more info

Known Failure:
-Specially Offensive Sets
*Celebi's offensive prowess in Ubers is pathetic

Tested Success:
-None Yet

Tested Failure:
-SubPass (Substitute/Grass Knot/Baton Pass/Recover or Leech Seed)
My logic here was simple: if Jolteon (tested by Catherine) was deemed to be a successful SubPasser in Ubers, why couldn't Celebi? But Celebi is quite a bit slower, losing notably to Garchomp, Lati twins, Palkia (tie), Mew (tie), Darkrai, and Skymin. It doesn't have any useful immunities either. These factors combined mean that it has to focus on its bulk and Water/Ground/Electric resistances (and if it EVs its bulk, it's not EVing speed...).

In the first place, Celebi cannot wall any Choice Specs or Choice Band users. Period. Even if you give it Calm 252 HP / 252 SDef...

Palkia 2HKO's with Specs Spacial Rend.
Dialga 2HKO's with Specs Draco Meteor.
Kyogre 2HKO's with Water Spout calculated at 88% health (so 132 BP).

Celebi, if given max/max/+, manages to avoid things like a 2HKO from Lustrous Orb Spacial Rend, fortunately, barring a crit. So it may be able to fulfill its mission of Baton Passing a Substitute a few times per match by switching in or revenging on stuff like Groudon, Kyogre, Dialga, and Palkia. But in the end, it appears that it Celebi can't fulfill this simple mission enough times to be useful to the team. Jolteon is way better on offense in terms of maintaining momentum, with its higher speed and use of Thunder and Yawn.

Now for stuff about my actual battle experience with this set. The team that I used was a modified version of PokemonMasterHSA's team with a MonoCM Kyogre over his SpecsOgre, SubPass Celebi over his Support Dialga, and a ScarfGar over his ScarfChomp. I very rarely had a chance to get in Celebi, and even when revenge killing, the occasional SubPass to something like Palkia or Gengar wasn't worth the team slot I spent for it. I felt like I was playing 5 on 6 all the time. This led me to conclude the failure of SubPass Celebi.

To those of you who suggest I try this set on a team other than HSA's Hyperoffense: think about what you used to do in OU for a second. Would you ever consider spending an entire pokemon slot for the purpose of passing Substitutes if your team was meant to be bulky anyways?


-SubSeed (Substitute/Leech Seed/Grass Knot/Filler: I used Recover)
Celebi doesn't have the speed to be a fast SubSeeder or the defense/resistances to be a bulky one. Nor does it have other distinguishing factors like Skymin's Seed Flare. Jumpluff is way better as a SubSeeder in terms of offense and team support with Encore.

Seriously, I tried this Celebi on both aggro and stall teams. What I found was that I kept wishing I had something else that could provide some do something besides MAYBE get in and SubSeed. I used Wobbuffet support as well, but it was pretty useless, as Scarfers still outsped me, unlike what happens with Jumpluff.


-Perish Song (Perish Song/Recover/Grass Knot/Filler)
This set does one thing, and that is beat mono-CM Kyogre for stall. If you really think your stall team needs that, then bully for you. As for me, I'll just countersetup with my Bulk Up Dialga, use Calm Mind with my CM Latias, Taunt with my Bulky Mewtwo, or use Encore with my Jumpluff.

Technically speaking, you can consider this against Bulk Up Dialga for a stall team (although its risky because after a BU, Dialga 2HKOes easily), but Groudon, Skarmory, and Lugia (set up Spikes, phaze) on stall beat it anyways. Groudon and Lucario work well to beat it on offense, too. So Celebi is pretty useless here too.



Wow, that's cheerful. But you've got to report failures as well as successes, so that's what I've done.

 

[Theorymon]

Sorry, but from personal experience from me and twash, I would say that Perish Song Celebi is in fact, a sucsess. I'll write why later, its late. additonally, I would not dimiss offensive sets like that either. I at least found sucsess with a Calm Mind + Baton Pass set.

 

[Janenmori]

I have had success with an Ubers lead set, however, I used a Trickscarf Jolly lead. This lead could also be viable in OU but I have yet to test it:

Celebi@ Choice Scarf
Jolly
252 HP/ 252 Spe/ 4 Def
~U-turn
~Trick
~Stealth Rock
~Thunder Wave

The ev's are for general bulk and max speed, but these can be reworked depending on what you want to do. Thunder Wave helps cripple fast leads like CS Kyogre, Darkrai who usually Dark Voids you and Natural Cure rids that problem on the switch, and Deoxys who opt for the Taunt. U-turn is great to use on Darkrai and Deo-s especially if you have a Scizor to finish them off with a Bullet Punch as a switch in. Trick is obvious. SR is also self-explanatory.

 

[tripe]

I have had success with an Ubers lead set, however, I used a Trickscarf Jolly lead. This lead could also be viable in OU but I have yet to test it:

Celebi@ Choice Scarf
Jolly
252 HP/ 252 Spe/ 4 Def
~U-turn
~Trick
~Stealth Rock
~Thunder Wave

The ev's are for general bulk and max speed, but these can be reworked depending on what you want to do. Thunder Wave helps cripple fast leads like CS Kyogre, Darkrai who usually Dark Voids you and Natural Cure rids that problem on the switch, and Deoxys who opt for the Taunt. U-turn is great to use on Darkrai and Deo-s especially if you have a Scizor to finish them off with a Bullet Punch as a switch in. Trick is obvious. SR is also self-explanatory.

There's a few problems already with this set, I doubt Celebi can survive an Ice beam from Kyogre, and majority of the lead ones carry a lum berry. They don't mind a scarf either. Darkrai would just dark pulse immediately for the kill. Deoxys would normally just set up entry hazards and a decent portion of the speed ones carry a lum berry. This also does nothing to lead dialga, none of these options would save you from a fire blast/draco meteor and it doesn't mind a choice scarf. Groudon, who would you would normally wall, ironically walls this set entirely, and only fears trick.

 

[Darkmalice]

On the lead set, U-turn should be mentioned as an option over Stealth Rock (so many Pokemon get this move) or Thunderwave. U-turn enables you to break Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A' sash and send in a Pokemon with a priority move to finish it off e.g. Scizor, Rayquaza, Lucario. This way, Deoxys-S can only get 1 layer up as opposed to 3. U-turn is also good against Choiced leads (i.e. Scarftwo) to send in a Pursuit user (Scizor being the best) or Wobbuffet to trap them.

 

[zorbees]

Sorry, but from personal experience from me and twash, I would say that Perish Song Celebi is in fact, a sucsess.

I support this as well, I'll see what you have written up and then I'll add my comments.

 

[mtr]

Sorry, but from personal experience from me and twash, I would say that Perish Song Celebi is in fact, a sucsess. I'll write why later, its late. additonally, I would not dimiss offensive sets like that either. I at least found sucsess with a Calm Mind + Baton Pass set.

I was dismissing offensive sets, not supporting sets. Stuff like Tinkerbell doesn't work in Ubers. Calm Mind + Baton Pass could be interesting, but the problem is the competition for a team slot. Mew gets Taunt and RP, and all Celebi gets are the resistances of the Grass type. I think something like that would be OO material, but maybe not worthy of a set.

When testing the sets, I tried to do what you guys said and work the sets into successful teams like HSA's and my own. If there is something I did wrong on the Perish Song Celebi, then it was probably because I used it on a rather orthodox stall team. Either that or I'm missing something obvious.

 

[twash]

Perish Song Celebi is simply great. I was running Recover / Grass Knot / Perish Song / Leech Seed and it's a great staller (Substitute can also go over Leech Seed). Leech Seed & Perish Song seem to contradict each other at first glance but it helps Celebi survive the few turns when it is taking on stat-uppers. I ran tons and tons of SDef to help against a variety of threats.

With Perish Song it's easy to force switches which is insanely useful on a stall team (especially if you have a shuffler so the opponent switches then gets shuffled all in one turn allowing you to scout even more). Celebi's Leech Seed is hugely useful in Ubers due to the gargantuan HP of some of the threats, and it is generally a good go-to guy (especially with choiced Thunder / Surf attacks being thrown around).

Celebi isn't just on stall to tie up loose ends - it's there to help force switches and rack up damage as an all-purpose Pokemon!

I haven't tested U-turn but that could be hugely interesting with something like Wobbuffet, but that's Theorymon's ground...;].

 

[Theorymon]

I haven't tested U-turn but that could be hugely interesting with something like Wobbuffet, but that's Theorymon's ground...;].

I would personally really strongly recommend U-turn on most Perish Song Celebi, because I found that Wobbuffet was a pretty common switch into it. If not using U-turn, then Shed Shell should be strongly incouraged IMO.

 

[mtr]

Maybe it's a matter of playstyle for the difference in our successes, then. Personally, I was disappointed by the fact that I had to fit it in over Latias, who had better overall utility, also takes Water/Electric/Ground attacks, could counter Kyogre, set up a bulwark against threats such as Giratina-O with Calm Mind. I guess the main problem is the competition it faces for a moveslot. Water Spout, even after Stealth Rock, is a 2HKO anyways, and if I use a Scarf Palkia as my Darkrai/Kyogre check, I leave a gross opening for SDRay. Scarf Dialga makes me open to SpecsOgre.

I guess Leech Seed and Perish Song can be useful, and my failure with Celebi wasn't total by any means. But stall is already strapped for slots with which to cover threats, and using Celebi over something comes with a price. I didn't feel that the benefits of Celebi warranted losing Latias, who would do almost everything that Celebi could do, and more.

 

[Snorlaxe]

You don't have a lot right now, but I'll check it anyway. This also needs to be changed to the new format!

[SET]
name: Ubers Support Lead
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Recover
move 4: Stealth Rock
item: Lum Berry / Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This Celebi works as a scout for your team, gathering information and perhaps crippling one of your opponent's sweepers. The EVs ensure that Celebi survives a Life Orb Fire Punch from Groudon, a Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam from Mewtwo, and a Dark Pulse from a lead Darkrai. As the match opens, the recommended course of action is to use Thunder Wave (unless Groudon is leading the opposing team), which will cripple the opponent's lead and make it easy to pick off with a counter from your team. Make a note of the damage Celebi takes from the opponent's attack; if it takes over 70% from a non-Darkrai lead and see no Life Orb recoil, the opponent was using a Choice Band or Choice Specs, and this information can prove crucial later in the match. If Celebi takes less damage from the foe, Thunder Wave and Recover can give Celebi an opportunity to set up Stealth Rock once the opponent is fully paralyzed or upon their switching out.</p>

<p>This Celebi lead can unequivocally defeat lead Kyogres and Groudons. Deoxys-A, Darkrai (the reason for the suggested Lum Berry), and Mewtwo are crippled, but the encounter will leave Celebi heavily weakened. You also lose to Deoxys-S, because it can Taunt Celebi and still set up 2 layers of entry hazards, or just set up 3 layers (Grass Knot is a 3HKO). Your team will need to be constructed with this in mind, knowing that your Pokemon will lose 25% of their health for switching in. Fortunately, you can remedy this by using a Forretress to use Rapid Spin to clear away the entry hazards and set up on the Ice-type attacks aimed at Celebi.</p>

<p>Other than Forretress, there is no Pokemon that is highly recommended for use alongside this Celebi. But it is worth noting that this set is designed for use on offensively minded teams, though not necessarily hyper-offensive teams. With this in mind, avoid using Blissey, support Groudon, and Giratina. Giratina-O, on the other hand, is preferable for its ability to handle stall teams, along with minimizing residual damage with Levitate if you are unable to use Rapid Spin in a timely manner.</p>

 

[calze6]

I'd consider U-turn over recover to be able to switch to a priority user to finish off deo with bullet punch. In that case, I have a 252HP/36SAtk/152Atk/68SDef EV spread with some nature that I'm not certain on.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

This is ancient and irrelevant anymore, so I am locking it and sending it on its way. If anyone else wants to write this analysis, they should repost it in a new thread.