Gen 3 CeleTres

[Falkner12]

Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Rest
- Roar
- Surf

ReflectSuicune needs to see more use. This this is seriously a beast when it comes to stopping Mence, Gross, Ttar, and Swampert to name a few. With a Calm Mind under its belt it's even more annoying.

Tyranitar (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 72 Spd / 176 SAtk
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Crunch
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt

Boah. Moving on...

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd / 168 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Heal Bell
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Seismic toss
- Softboiled

EDIT: Water over grass.
someone please fix my evs. They were designed to 100% break Tar/Gar subs.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 172 HP / 136 Def / 160 Spd / 40 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Recover

I like fast Celebi/Jirachi. 384 HP/270 Def/303 Speed.

Moltres @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 188 HP / 242 Spd / 80 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The star of the show?
Should I just max speed and SpAtk? Because the HP helps counter Heracross... and I'm just defensively focused when I make teams/sets.

Donphan (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 64 Def / 144 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Rock Slide

spins away stelth roq amirite?

 

[Umby]

I've never seen a Moltres that is both Timid and lacking in SAtk EVs. We've concluded that Salamence can become an issue here.

 

[Falkner12]

Well I EV'd it with the idea in mind that it would only come out if being the end of a pass. Obviously that isn't very realistic so I guess so EV modifications are in order?

Moltres @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 188 HP / 220 Spd / 100 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

368 HP, 271 Spd, 341 SpAtk. I don't want to reduce its speed any lower than 270.

 

[Umby]

You can skimp on HP to get its Speed up to more like 286, unless your calculations show CBMegahorn is doing too much.

 

[Falkner12]

Moltres @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 60 HP / 220 Spd / 228 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

336 HP, 271 Spd, 376 SpAtk

Moltres @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 60 HP / 240 Spd / 210 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Generates for 336 HP, 303 Spd, and 337 SpAtk. I like that a lot more.

 

[Umby]

What are you trying to do with Moltres again?

 

[Falkner12]

Counter heavy hitters like Heracross and Metagross, abuse Pressure with Resttalk, and most importantly steer away from a team of bog standards.

 

[Umby]

I'd definitely be using some kind of Roar variant with Spike abusage in that manner.

 

[dekzeh]

Why not Restalk Toxic Fthrower.

Fire Move + Toxic never gets old, and Moltres is perfect for that.

 

[Karrot]

Agreed with Dekzeh. Toxic is really handy in the Sandstorm against the common Moltres counters. Also, go for 338 HP on Moltres by removing 8 EVs from Spatk. If Sandstorm isn't out, you're surviving one more Seismic Toss from that Blissey that's trying to beat you!

Donphan is getting popular again?

Anyways, not many problems here as it leans towards a stall team build. Dugtrio may piss you off more than once, especially since Blissey will never have a 100% chance of KOing it, so be aware!

EDIT: I just realized you are passing Calm Minds to Moltres. Nevermind about Toxic as I think HP: Grass will be more useful in this situation.

 

[snookajam]

i'd just like to mention that you shouldn't be switching moltres to heracross. most heracrosses have rock slide. CBcross does, mopcross does, stalkcross does as well. even reversal cross has it.

 

[Umby]

That's like saying never switch Magneton into Forretress because it has Earthquake.

 

[Falkner12]

ya, I'm not too worried about Hera having Rock Slide. If its CB Hera then the first time I switch in it'll be an easy stop. The second time, I'd probably go to Donphan first, who can take anything, and switch accordingly. Mopcross and Endrevcross are both handled by ReflectSuicune.

If you'd like I can rephrase "to counter heavy hitters like Heracross," and just say "to counter heavy hitters like Megahorn".

 

[morning storm]

That's like saying never switch Magneton into Forretress because it has Earthquake.

no its not. thats a one-time risk, which if you predict right, with forretress not using earthquake, will result in a guaranteed KOed forry. (assuming you must be running hp fire, otherwise why are you switchin in at all)

all a moltress switching into a heracross is doing, is running the low risk of being rockslided, or at best, forcing a switch. the switch in isnt worth the risk like it is with mag/forry.

 

[Umby]

However, you're still assuming there's a risk of being hit with an SE attack that can OHKO if the opponent predicts, regardless of how frequent that risk is.

In any case, it's evident that he wouldn't switch it into Moltres EVERY time. He knows prediction well enough to switch it up now and then. Donphan's rough enough to take a Megahorn off a misprediction when he wants to.

 

[Falkner12]

In your defense morning storm/snookajam, "prediction will suffice" isn't exactly the best defense for my argument. But, with Donphan, Suicune, and Moltres, worrying about Heracross isn't exactly on my top priorities list. True, Rock Slide is prevalent in many Heracross sets, but with Moltres in my team, my opponent will either remain completely walled by Moltres, or try to over predict and use weak Rock Slides on another, even more defensive, pokemon.
I could, however, play around with HP: Flying on Donphan. Not only would it keep Heracross from setting up in my face, but it would at least dent Celebi more than Rock Slide. Thoughts?

 

[Umby]

More like Double-Edge. Double-Edge is fun.

 

[z0MG]

suicune and donphan can't do shit to hera. far from counters.

 

[z0MG]

and ALL standard hera sets have RS.

 

[Umby]

He never called them counters. He is basically making the assumption that, on CBCross in particular, he can switch Moltres in on Megahorns/BBs/FPs, then predict that Hera will use Rock Slide on a later turn, in which he will switch to Donphan or Suicune to throw it off.

 

[Falkner12]

Saying ReflectSuicune+Donphan+Moltres don't take care of Hera is saying Hera can singlehandidly take down any team not carrying Skarm or an extremely defensive Wishmence. Specifically on my team, Hera can switch into a total of three pokemon, assuming Ttar hasn't already set up a sub and Donphan is still carrying Rock Slide > Hp: Flying.

on another note, double-edge? I don't really want to give Gengar another chance to come in and have its way with me (not that HP: Flying would really solve a Gengar problem, but that's really another issue).
That, and Double-Edge has a recoil, which means its just as reckless as Thunder and I don't want to get zOMG all worked up.

 

[Umby]

Oh, I just said it was fun. And I am right.

 

[z0MG]

That, and Double-Edge has a recoil, which means its just as reckless as Thunder and I don't want to get zOMG all worked up.

Are you retarded?
No offense, it's a simple question that should be obivious when you can't see the difference between a move with low acc for not much higher base power and a move with a bit recoil. When people use Thunder, I assume that their IQ is very low and they only look at the base power, without even thinking about calculating the average damage. Because Thunder's base power is higher, it must be better. Let's look at the calculations:

Thunderbolt:
Base power: 95
Accuracy: 100%
Average damage: 95
10 PP
10% paralyze chance

Thunder
Base power: 120
Accuracy: 70%
Average damage: 81
5 PP
21% paralyze chance

Conclusion: Thunderbolt's average damage is remarkably higher, and it has more PP. The only thing Thunder has over Thunderbolt is the higher paralyze chance. The only reason to ever use Thunder on a pokemon is if you only care about paralyzing. If paralyzing is so important, use Thunder Wave!
The presence of Thunderbolt makes Thunder a near useless move in competitive Pokémon battling.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate jokes, but that wasn't funny at all. If you still think I don't like Thunder because it's "reckless", good for you.

 

[z0MG]

when people replace thunderbolt with thunder on basic sp attackers for "the extra damage"*

 

[Umby]

Is "extra damage" always so bad?