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BW Ubers Challenge Accepted

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Steven Snype, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. Steven Snype

    Steven Snype
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    Hello, and welcome to the thread of one of my most consistent and dependable Ubers teams during Pre-BW2 Ubers. I’ve been using this team since September 2011, when I made the team with HSA. When I first began playing Ubers, it was Dream World Ubers, so I focused on Regen Ho-Oh + Forretress + Groudon cores, which I absolutely loved in early DW. With Substitute, I found that I needed a bit more damage, preferably residual to put things in KO range. Between weather, status, and hazards, I figured that a combination of status and hazards was ideal. Most teams were offensive, and I noticed with hard hitters, a little bit of residual damage was necessary to put most things into KO range, but I preferred durability over power with the style of team that I wanted to make, so I needed something that could constantly degenerate health over multiple turns. Enter status: Poison and Burn. I had a motive, now I needed a means.

    Teambuilding Process (open)


    The simplest way to Poison would be Toxic Spikes, and since Rain Stall was quite good in OU at the time, I figured why not Tentacruel? I could use it to take Draco Meteors, act as my spinner, and be a general bitch like it always is. (Note: I wasn’t too into Ubers at this time as this was my team to get me used to Standard Ubers after a hiatus from DW Ubers, so I apologize if my backstories for each of these things seem nooby.)

    Naturally, Tentacruel can’t heal itself very well unless it’s got Rain for its Rain Dish. Kyogre was a nice touch and a great Pokemon to clean up the enemy when its weakened. I also need a good weather changer to turn the tides against Sun teams (Sand wasn’t quite popular back then yet), preferably one that damages their weather inducer before it damages mine.

    With a cleaner like this, I figured that I needed to give a bit more hell and needed something specially bulky. I opted for Ferrothorn here because I need hazards, and between Ferrothorn and Forretress, that Grass type was extremely important. Plus, it synergized well with the rain to weaken a Fire weakness.

    With hazards, I figured that they would be spun away easily. I didn’t want a Ghost that couldn’t give an offensive presence (so that threw out Giratina). This one took a little while for me to figure out before settling on Gira-O, after watching Jibaku use it against someone (I think tito?) in a game. Dragon Tail Gira-O was perfect as it forced switches and gave some damage. Sneak was particularly important because Mewtwo could easily smash me. With a turn of LO and some help from further residual damage, it wouldn’t be too hard to kill. Draco Meteor was obligatory STAB. HP Fire and EQ didn’t really interest me much as opposing Ferrothorns would be a bitch to me. I figured WoW would be more useful to continue the degeneration that I needed.

    Unfortunately, Ferrothorn didn’t cover all the hazards. Leech Seed is a must on something that I need to take Special hits, especially ones from Specs Kyogre. Spikes users are harder to come by, so I needed a Stealth Rock user. Dialga as a “second Steel” was useful for me as it meant one less mon for me to be afraid of Toxic, a great phazer, and under Rain, I could have it phase away Ho-Oh.

    Five down, one left. Ferrothorn, Giratina-O, Kyogre, Dialga, Tentacruel. This team would EASILY be swept by a SD Arceus with Brick Break and Shadow Claw. Being paranoid about that and to another extent, Rayquaza, I needed a fast yet bulky WoWer. Both’s priority moves were Extremespeed, so I preferred something immune to it, and something who I could guarantee would force Arceus to not XSpeed (if necessary stalling it out of XSpeeds by switching) This left me with two options: Gengar (lol) and Arceus-Ghost. Needless to say who filled in the last spot.

    This is the current team today, with one minor modification that drastically affects what I need to watch out for.





    [​IMG]
    Giratina-O @ [​IMG] ***** Shawn Spencer
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 Atk / 232 SAtk / 28 Spd
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Draco Meteor


    I’ve loved this set since I first saw Jibaku use it. Will-O-Wisp is for degeneration purposes. The only Pokemon that I actually use WoW against for the Attack drop are SD Arceus and Groudon, though I normally Draco Meteor the latter. Otherwise, I use WoW on anything that can’t be poisoned, namely Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Tentacruel. Dragon Tail is incredibly important as it deals a great chunk of damage to opposing Tentacruel, and the phazing it provides is important to force around switches and rack up hazards damage. Shadow Sneak makes Gira-O my foremost check to Mewtwo. After a couple of turns of Poison/LO residual damage, Sneak is able to put Mewtwo out of commission. Its natural bulk allows me to take on weaker hits such as Ferrothorn’s Power Whips and Forry's Gyro Balls and resisted hits such as Kyogre's Thunder, Dialga's Fire Blast. Draco Meteor is my STAB move of choice as I want the most damage to be done to general bulky Pokemon, such as Groudon and Dialga. The Speed EVs are there to Speed creep other bulky Base 90 Pokemon and hit them before they hit me. Naughty Nature is used to minimize the # of terms I need to wait before I can kill Mewtwo. Draco Meteor won’t mind missing a few Special Attack points, so I put it into Speed to ensure that I get the kill on other base 90s before they get the leap on me.

    Shawn Spencer… the most volatile of my men is arguably the most unpredictable Pokemon. Many people get the general idea that he’s a Psychic and will generally have a Dragon Tail and a Shadow Sneak in there, but most of the time, nobody knows what else this boy’s gonna have. Is it gonna be Hidden Power Fire? Draco Meteor? Outrage? Earthquake? Spencer’s versatility has helped him stay out of trouble and catching criminals, and his unpredictability has definitely earned him the spot as Giratina-O.

    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel (M) @ [​IMG] ***** Barney Stinson
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 248 HP / 236 SDef / 24 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Beam
    - Scald


    Tentacruel itself is important for the role of primary/backup Special Attack sponger. That Base 120 Special Defense and Rain Dish doesn't force it to be a suicide hazard layer. While the lack of Protect seems rather counter-intuitive, I don't consider Tentacruel to be that important offensively to maintain kills against other Pokemon. Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin are the main reason I use Tentacruel, and the aforementioned Special Defense is the reason why I do not run Forretress instead.

    Scald is mostly there as a STAB attack and another effect to burn Pokemon, particularly Ferrothorn who usually has no qualms setting up on almost everything else my team has. Once it's burned though, it becomes a lot easier to handle (and fortunately, Tentacruel's not my only burner, else this would make for a shitty strategy.) Still though, the chance burns are usually useful as I mostly manage to get one layer of Toxic Spikes up anyway and it's not until mid-late-game that I get up a second layer of hazards given how common opposing spinners and Tentacruel are. Most would wonder why there is no Protect. It used to be on this team until after I played a Rayquaza and realized how threatening DD versions could be. Ice Beam does 70%+ to most DD/SD Rayquaza. Then, LO variants will put themselves in KO range of Giratina's Sneak.

    Tentacruel's role though is solely to set up Toxic Spikes and spin hazards away as necessary. Against more offensive teams, Tentacruel becomes Specially defensive absorber. Against teams with Darkrai, Tentacruel becomes dedicated Sleep bitch and sometimes isn't able to do much :( The price of using two Ghosts, but oh well.

    Edits: 232 HP / 252 SDef / 24 Spe spread changed to 248 HP / 236 SDef / 24 Spd due to a tip from LizardMan for a more efficient EV Spread.

    Barney, Barney, Barney… usually the most useless person ever. However, there is one important thing to remember about this man: he is deceptive with the ladies. Sure, he won’t mind lying a bit, here and there and then reveal some surprises. Likewise, with Tentacruel’s deception, its Toxic Spikes are absolutely useful, and that shocking Ice Beam for Rayquaza is also helpful. Come to think of it, every once in a while Tentacruel always gets some… burns with Scald too!

    [​IMG]
    Ferrothorn (M) @ [​IMG] ***** Adrian Monk
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Power Whip
    - Thunder Wave


    Ferrothorn is my initial switch-in to Kyogre after it comes in on Dialga. It takes all of Ogre's attacks relatively easily and has amazing synergy with Tentacruel and Giratina-O. Leech Seed lets it recover most of the damage it has taken, and in the rain, Ferro can live one Fire Blast from support Dialga. Ferrothorn's main role is to Spike and Seed on anything that wants to try to set up on it. Power Whip is what I personally prefer for STAB to beat down bothersome Waters, particularly Tentacruel, Kyogre, and Palkia. If I am unable to get Toxic Spikes up because certain threats haven't been leaving (usually Mewtwo or +1 Rayquaza locked into Outrage), I have Thunder Wave to neuter them so that more members of my team can attempt to revenge kill.

    Ahh Monk… generally the bitchiest of the lot I have and gets extremely irritated when things don’t quite go his way, like taking random Fire Blasts. Sometimes, his OCD tends to annoy people, particularly Arceus aiming to Brick Break this boy and Leech Seeding anything that generally wants to try to take advantage of it. Monk is usually paralyzed with his tendencies, which is fine facing opposing Ferrothorns. However, given time, Monk can always crack down the tougher cases to beat, such as opposing Lugia and CM Ogre.

    [​IMG]
    Kyogre @ [​IMG] ***** Michael Scott
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Water Spout
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam


    Kyogre's main role is Drizzle. That's all. Without Drizzle, I'd actually have to worry about Fire Blast non-Rayquaza dragons, Tentacruel not getting enough HP, Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire being a bona fide bitch. Speaking of Ho-Oh, that's quite a bitch to this team; I need something to handle it. I'm not talking about Brave Bird because with Stealth Rock and two Ghosts, I prefer that residual damage. Once that thing lacks a Sub, Scarf Ogre outspeeds and KOs it. Scarf Ogre also outspeeds and KOes other things and it is a great revenge killer for stuff like CM Arceus (only if I get this thing in quickly), Giratina-O, Mewtwo, and Darkrai. Water Spout is the early-game spam move (sometimes this becomes Ice Beam to hit certain Dragons like Rayquaza on the switch). Ice Beam is for all the Dragons looking to come in hoping to take a resisted hit. Thunder is for opposing Ogres and Tentacruels. Once hazards and other damage has taken its toll, Surf becomes the STAB move of choice to clean up.

    Known for being at the #1 position in Ubers, Kyogre’s developed an ego about itself, just like Michael Scott. Yes, he handles my Mewtwo problems, forces Arceus to ExtremeSpeed, and is just sometimes useful, but with something like #1, you’d think Michael would have a bigger role when he actively tries. Truth is, he doesn’t do that much when he actively tries. On his own, he can't OHKO stuff; that's why he must synergize with the rest of the team to weaken the enemies such that one Pokemon can sweep everything in the endgame. Usually, it's this guy.
    [​IMG]
    Dialga @ [​IMG] ***** The Doctor
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 SAtk / 200 SDef / 24 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Draco Meteor
    - Aura Sphere
    - Roar


    In my opinion, Dialga is one of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. In this team, its access to SR and key resistances, particularly to Water, Electric, and Dark make it the reason I want this thing on my team. Usually, Dialga is my preferred lead as it sets up Stealth Rock quickly and can Draco Meteor most of the metagame for good damage. Dialga used to have Fire Blast, but I found Aura Sphere more useful as it 2HKOes most opposing Dialga and doesn't conflict with rain very much, plus I don't mind a consistent 30% damage to Ferrothorn. It also makes a good answer to Tyranitar leads as it outspeeds all max Speed neutral nature Tyranitar and 2HKOes with Aura Sphere before they can kill me with Low Kick. I generally won't mind a Dialga in its 40-50% HP because Leftovers and Ferrothorn's Leech Seed will usually let it live a couple more attacks. Roar is there to phaze away Substitutes, particularly those that belong to Ho-Oh, who in Sun otherwise poses to be a dangerous threat to this team. I rely on Stealth Rock, Rain, and phazing to keep it in check.

    It’s only fitting the time traveler is the Pokemon of Time… thingy. When people are lost, they generally look to The Doctor as a figure to fall back upon and the answer to any unknown threat; similarly Dialga is the Pokemon I go to for general purposes and does a smashing good job of helping me learn whatever something is running.
    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Ghost @ [​IMG] ***** Jack Donaghy
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp / Calm Mind
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Focus Blast

    Heh, the one mon that people claim to be the most broken was the filler of this team. Quite interesting that it’s worked out like this. WoW was necessary to stop Rayquazas, opposing SD Arceus, and Double Dance Groudon. Judgment is there for obligatory STAB, hitting Lugia, Mewtwo, opposing Arceus-Ghosts, and Giratinas for SE damage. Focus Blast seems odd given that I could use Fire Blast/ Flamethrower to kill Steels, but I need a backup move to hit opposing Dialga if my Dialga goes down too early.

    Unfortunately, a big problem for this team was opposing CM Arceus, particularly Arceus-Steel. If it was last mon, then I couldn’t do anything. To minimize the changes, I sometimes run CM over WoW. Unfortunately, this means that I won’t be able to check hard-hitting physical attackers as well as I would like to, but this does mean that Arceus can be a bigger offensive threat.

    Arceus-G is the BOSS of this entire team. The most recent addition of the 30 Rock crew is how NBC has managed to stay alive. Similarly, when desperate situations arise, Arceus can handle the job, no matter how daunting it is. The ability to mentor the team serves as with one simple change, I was able to cover the threats that once harassed this team.

    Threat List! (open)

    Ubers Threat List

    [​IMG]Arceus -- Swords Dance versions are troublesome. To defeat them, I ideally have one layer of Toxic Spikes up and have Ferrothorn and Giratina-O alive. Ghost Arceus is helpful (particularly if it has WoW and Toxic Spikes do not affect it due to Lum or I'm unable to get up hazards. The idea is to switch to Ferrothorn on the obvious ExtremeSpeed or Shadow Claw first. If I'm feeling gutsy, I will Thunder Wave or even Leech Seed. The strategy for degeneration is particularly important here. Gira can take one unboosted Shadow Claw at full health to WoW it. Kyogre will force Arceus to ExtremeSpeed, which makes it easier to go to Ferrothorn for Iron Barbs. I prefer it has Brick Break rather than EQ for Iron Barbs damage as I spam Power Whip. Best scenario is a Life Orb Shadow Force Arceus because that free turn means that Giratina can stay in for anything and then I just go to Ferrothorn/Dialga to take the Shadow Force. If it's got Recover, 4-moveslot syndrome means it can't have either Shadow Claw or EQ/BB. That's fine with me; I just gotta guess around it. CB versions are easier to handle. Go to Arceus or Giratina on ExtremeSpeeds/Tricks/EQs/Brick Breaks and Ferrothorn for Shadow Claws. WallCeus are easier to handle as they're just usually bulky and don't have as much of an offensive potential. Get two layers up with Tenta (or one. Just get up Spikes w/Ferro and DTail w/Gira-O). WoW can be annoying though.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Bug -- lol. never seen this thing. Ooh Bug-type STAB? Meet Dialga and Arceus. Kyogre will check you momentarily.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dark -- Keep Kyogre alive, especially if it's CM Refresh as T-Spikes won't do too much. I have to keep it on its toes. Payback versions are easier to handle. Just have Rain up and go to appropriate Steel/Tenta.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon -- I haven't seen very many of these, but these are much easier to handle when I have Ferrothorn alive. Outrage is a bitch. Bait him into Outraging with Gira-O. If I have WoW Arc, use it. Ogre revenges with Ice Beam. Play around it.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Electric -- Hi. My name is Ferrothorn. I will Leech Seed you. You like Focus Blast? My friend Giratina-O loves them! Wanna see his Dragon Tail? Oh, you're leaving already? Bye Bye.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fighting -- A dangerous Arceus form if I'm not CM Arc-Ghost. Kyogre is a must. Giratina-O can't wall it very well. If it's early on, I will go to Tentacruel to set up T-Spikes as necessary and then to Arceus-Ghost to wall/set up alongside him. Occasionally, I will let Gira-O eat an Ice Beam and have Kyogre revenge kill. Do not let this thing get many CMs.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire -- Kyogre.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying -- I've only faced one person who uses this. This one is a pest in that Toxic Spikes do not affect it, but it's weak to SR so 'sall good. Kyogre checks it nicely. The version I played against had Refresh, so Dialga was a common switch-in to set up SR and Roar it out as necessary. Didn't like critical Judgments very much though.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ghost -- If it's a SD'er, treat it similarly to Arc-Normal. If it's a WoW user, let someone take the damn burn, probably Tenta, set up T-Spikes? Leech Seed with Ferro. Giratina-O threatens low-HP versions with Sneak. Revenge with Kyogre as necessary. Set up w/own CM Arceus as last resort.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Grass -- not really a problem. Tenta likes it. CM Grassceus is no biggie. Grass sucks. Meet Dialga. Got EP? Meet Gira-O. Got Ice Beam? Meet Dialga.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ground -- Handle it similarly to Arceus-Fighting. Giratina-O is preferred Pokemon to switch in, though if it has Ice Beam, Ferrothorn won't mind a Leech Seed or a free layer of Spikes. SD versions meet Giratina-O anyhow and meet a free WoW.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ice -- Easier to handle than Arc-Flying, but that Ice neutrality on most of my Pokemon is rather annoying. Tentacruel / Ogre is usual mon to go to.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Poison -- bs T-Spike removal, though not that common. Doesn't really resist anything. Dialga/Gira-O Draco Meteor its ass. Ferro still sets up Spikes. Support version? Don't really care much about it. Fine, set up your SR, Tenta will spin it anyway and probably try to burn you with Rain-boosted STAB Scald.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Psychic -- CM Arc-Ghost, Giratina-O, Dialga, Ferrothorn to play around the type chart and the latter especially for Leech Seed, uncommon though, and Mewtwo is indeed more threatening.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Rock -- SD versions meet Gira-O. Haven't faced a CM version; those probably face Kyogre.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Steel -- The reason why I wanted CM Arceus-Ghost and made the change. Immune to T-Spikes, resisting hits, as a last mon, I often couldn't do anything. Steel does relatively well, and Dialga/Tentacruel are often dead late game. I need Kyogre for the 40% Water Spout, and that needs burns and hazards damage to win. With a CM Arceus, at least I can play a CM war.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Water -- SD Versions meet Giratina-O, who would like to greet you with a burn. Dialga is nice too for CM versions with Ice Beam. Ferrothorn won't mind a Leech Seed either.
    [​IMG] Blaziken -- Oh finally, done with Arceus? Thank god! Oh, but it's a Blaziken. As long as I have rain up, Giratina-O alive, Tentacruel, and Dialga to bait for the HJK, I will be fine. Gira-O phazes most Blaziken with DTail anyway. It doesn't like Sneak very much either. Ideally, I don't let it have a Swords Dance up, so if necessary and it comes in on Ferrothorn, I may Thunder Wave it to make it more manageable, but only if I absolutely need to.
    [​IMG] Darkrai -- I hate this. I lead with Kyogre Turn 1 if I ever see this in team builder. I need Rain up, I need it fast, and I need something to outspeed and OHKO this thing. If it comes mid-game, I'll go to Tentacruel, set up my Toxic Spikes / Spin, and take the sleep while breaking any substitutes with Scald. Then Kyogre will Surf away any Darkrai.
    [​IMG] Deoxys -- never seen. lead with Gira-O. Sneak twice. Done.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-A --Giratina-O. Depends on the rest of the team and what exactly I need alive. Sometimes I lead with Tentacruel and go to Dialga for the Psycho Boost.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S -- easiest variant to handle as these just set up hazards and don't really do much damage. Psycho Boost deters Tenta from switching in, but Gira often restricts the # of layers it puts up w/D-Tail and Sneak. I don't often use Draco Meteor as I need the full Sp. Atk.
    [​IMG] Dialga -- The most versatile of Pokemon. My Dialga is set to outspeed most support Dialga and 2HKO w/combination of Aura Sphere + Draco Meteor before they kill me. Sometimes, I set up SR after the first Aura Sphere. Soon after, I go to Tentacruel to spin it away. If it's alive, go to Ferrothorn while rain is up, set up Spikes or Seed. Scarf Dialga are annoying as they usually surprise me, but once regular Dialga is weakened, they often meet Tentacruel to catch the pop Fire Blasts or live a Draco Meteor. If it's the recipient of a Baton Pass chain, not much I can do. Just hope that I break the chain! Bulk Up Rest Talk versions require Spikes + phazing from my Dialga.
    [​IMG] Excadrill -- As Mold Breaker wasn't released yet, to beat this, only Tyranitar needed to be killed and that wasn't much of an issue. Initial switch-in is Gira-O or Arceus-Ghost. If I was feeling ballsy, I could also go to Kyogre to get rid of Sand Rush, though that's only if I'm sure it's not attacking. Sub Exca sucks. :P
    [​IMG] Garchomp -- Get rid of Sand. Usually this thing is SubSD, so Ferrothorn is the usual mon to have. Break it with Whip and hope it doesn't miss too much. If necessary, Sneak can break a Sub. One layer of Toxic Spikes helps a lot against this thing.
    [​IMG] Giratina -- Dialga is a must. Set up SR on it, then Roar. When I feel it's coming in to take an Aura Sphere, I can Draco it for a good 2HKO or even OHKO. Giratina-O can also Draco Meteor if Dialga is dead, but it isn't weak to Dragon Tail. Sub CM versions are best handled by Dialga.
    [​IMG] Giratina-O -- Again, use Dialga as the offensive answer and the answer to Sub/CM versions. Sub/CM versions can also be handled by Arceus as it CMs alongside it and the lack of recovery doesn't help it much in the CM wars. Supereffective Judgments do, though. If rain is up, I won't mind going to Ferrothorn to set up Spikes. On opposing rain stalls, this thing usually has Tentacruel so the plan is to go to Ferrothorn to set up Spikes and then Tentacruel w/one layer of T-Spikes to force opposing Tentacruel to come in. Usually Gira-O comes in on Tentacruel so I may try to hit it with Scald for a burn. That really helps Tenta take a Dragon Tail if it has to.
    [​IMG] Groudon -- Giratina-O is the first switch-in for this. Threaten w/Draco Meteor, but if Ho-Oh is a partner, I need to be more cautious. A layer of Toxic Spikes or WoW degen works wonders against this thing. Bulkier versions are easier to handle. Offensive versions need to be played around. Unfortunately, this team's rather easy weakness to Ground-type attacks can be taken care of as it has had issues with Fast, CB Groudon.
    [​IMG] Ho-Oh -- Stealth Rock needs to be up. Then, rain should be up. Then have Dialga out to phaze it away. This thing likes coming in on Ferro and Tentacruel, so hit it with a Leech Seed / T-Wave / Scald on the switch ideally. Again, have the rain up so that Sacred Fire doesn't do too much. Fortunately, Regen wasn't released yet so I have an easier time handling it. This won't take on +1 Arceus very well though.
    [​IMG] Kyogre -- I generally lead with Dialga for the Draco Meteor to weaken the ensuing Water Spout and then Stealth Rock. For all of its attacks, set up Toxic Spikes and Spikes with Tentacruel and Ferrothorn on resisted attacks. Gira-O cleans up weakened versions with Sneak.
    [​IMG] Lugia -- Hopefully I have CM Arceus because I can take advantage of the ensuing switch-out as Judgment deals a decent amount of damage to Lugia. Kyogre revenge kills most Lugia variants that don't have a Substitute up with Water Spout or Thunder.
    [​IMG] Manaphy -- Ferrothorn can Seed / Power Whip this thing. I don't want to set up on this thing given Tail Glow is +3, so I prefer to take it out quickly. This thing won't like coming in on hazards very well though. CM versions are easier to take on as Dialga can also phaze it away.
    [​IMG] Mewtwo -- Hope that I have my layer of Toxic Spikes up by now. If it's LO, play around it until it's at about 65% health. Then Sneak w/Gira-O. Dialga/Ferrothorn for Psystrikes, Tentacruel for Ice Beam / Fire Move/ Aura Sphere, Giratina for Fire Move / Aura Sphere. Arceus-Ghost can also take one hit from a Mewtwo and KO with Judgment. Stallbreakers don't like taking Water Spouts from Kyogre.
    [​IMG] Palkia -- usually Scarfed. Play around it. Ferro won't mind taking one Fire Blast in the rain, but I absolutely have to Leech Seed that turn. Protect would help me somewhat here if I had it, but I prefer the coverage in case of Oh shit, scenarios. SubPunch is a bit annoying to face as I will need Arc to beat it. Dialga can Draco/Roar away any sets that don't have a Substitute up. Gira can revenge if it's at very low health.
    [​IMG] Rayquaza -- The reason why I have Ice Beam and Thunder Wave on Tenta and Ferro. V-Create was released very late-game and I imagine that would take out most of my team. WoW Arceus would be the Pokemon I need most to handle this. Recover after it takes a Draco Meteor to the face. Ideally, I force this thing to Outrage, especially if it's DD, which generally likes to come in on Tentacruel and Ferrothorn, whcih is why I forego Protect for the support moves instead. Gira-O revenges w/Sneak.
    [​IMG] Reshiram -- Tentacruel to take the Blue Flare and force a SDef drop w/DMeteor then to Ogre to make sure rain is up. Arceus won't mind sponging a Draco either.
    [​IMG] Shaymin-S Ferrothorn to set up Spikes. Dialga to phaze. Giratina-O to phaze too for SubSeed sets. Kyogre revenges. Scarf sets can't be revenged easily but are easier to play around.
    [​IMG] Zekrom -- Sub Hone Claws Zekrom = 6-0. I need Dialga or Arceus alive for this thing. Otherwise, Ferrothorn is my usual Pokemon to take hits, unless it has Focus Blast, in which case Arceus is the boss. Kyogre revenges w/Ice Beam.

    Non-Ubers

    [​IMG] Bisharp -- never seen this though on paper it seems to hurt a lot of my team. In practice I just gotta hit it w/something. Seems to be a threat but isn't very common.
    [​IMG] Blissey -- much easier to handle than its younger counterpart because it can't take hits very well. Ferrothorn sets up on it easily. Tentacruel sets up T-Spikes and spins away easily. Gira-O phazes w/DTail and won't mind a turn of weak Toxic. With hazards, Kyogre's Water Spout can do the trick.
    [​IMG] Chandelure -- Dialga in Rain is quite useful. SR + Roar.
    [​IMG] Chansey -- Same idea as Blissey except this one can't Flamethrower or Ice Beam. it's guaranteed to have Toxic/Seismic Toss/Wish/Prot/Sofboiled. Lack of Lefties means it's more prone to the degen this team has.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-D -- Arceus' Judgment. Not very common but it's not too hard to handle.
    [​IMG]Dugtrio -- what? Only really comes in on Kyogre's Thunder, and even then, if you do that, you've got quite the balls. SR w/Dialga if it comes in on that. Only thing it can trap is Tenta really.
    [​IMG] Espeon -- Arceus or Kyogre or even Gira-O.
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn -- Probably the most common Pokemon that gives me trouble. I handle it by attempting to burn it ASAP. If I can't burn it, I do the next best thing and set up Spikes alongside it, but when that 3rd turn of Spikes comes in, I go to Tenta instead and attempt to spin. If they have a ghost, then set up a layer of T-Spikes or play around it. Once I have some layers of Spikes up, I'll generally phaze it away. Once I get the burn up, it's a lot easier to handle as Tenta can come in for relatively free and spin away Spikes. If necessary and my opponent keeps his alive, CM Arceus will probably have to set up and hope for a crit Focus Blast.
    [​IMG] Forretress -- Gira-O. Most of the time, they will Toxic and let Forry take a lot of damage, thinking that it can come in later and spin. Then, they cry as they see Arc is Ghost. I don't like letting this get up too many hazards. T-Spikes isn't much of an issue given I have Tentacruel, but Spikes can be a bitch.
    [​IMG] Gastrodon -- Gira-O for WoW (unless T-Spikes are already up). Ferrothorn to set up on it. easily handled.
    [​IMG] Gengar -- Choice Scarf Gengar meets a bunch of resistances and Tentacruel who wouldn't mind setting up on a Focus Blast / HP Fire. Tentacruel, Dialga, Gira-O, Ferrothorn, and Arceus resist most of its moves, just pick the right switch-in.
    [​IMG] Haxorus -- another threat that doesn't seem to be seen very often in Ubers (I wonder why though, considering 97 Speed is really close to everything else.) Ideally, Ferro can T-Wave this thing. Gira-O can revenge after a couple of turns of damage. Arc is the usual switch-in for this. Kyogre revenges SD/CB variants.
    [​IMG] Heatran -- Tentacruel for Scald if rain is up. Else Dialga/Kyogre for Toxic and Fire attack respectively. Arceus can damage it w/Focus Blast, but that's really all it can do.
    [​IMG] Heracross -- again another seeming problem, only if it's Scarfed though. Even then, play around it w/ Arc-G, Gira-O, and Ferrothorn/ Dia.
    [​IMG] Hydreigon -- people use this? Ferrothorn/ Tentacruel to set up as Hydreigon's Fire Blasts in the rain are weak.
    [​IMG] Jirachi -- Set up Spikes, WoW/Scald burn it asap. Phaze it around and don't let it get too many Wishes. Kyogre's WSpout can revenge kill if I can get it to come in on enough hazards.
    [​IMG] Kingdra -- Ferrothorn.
    [​IMG] Kyurem -- haven't seen this either very much, but Dialga seems to be a good check w/Aura Sphere / DMeteor. Arc can also kill w/FBlast. Kyogre neuters most Blizzards.
    [​IMG] Latias -- not very common. Lack of Soul Dew makes it weak. So just hammer it w/Dragon attacks or set up on it w/Ferrothorn. Gira-O can revenge.
    [​IMG] Latios -- not very common. Lack of Soul Dew makes it weak. Even more prone to Dragon attacks than Latias, though it deals more damage. Gira-O can revenge.
    [​IMG] Lucario -- Arc-Ghost. Hope that fucking Focus Blast hits :P
    [​IMG] Ludicolo -- Ferrothorn/Gira-O/Dialga. Play around it until you find out what set it is, even set up w/Tentacruel and Toxic Spikes if you have to.
    [​IMG] Mew -- not really common, but the idea is to hammer it. Gira-O seems to be the answer to BP/NP variants as DMeteor + Sneak kills.
    [​IMG] Metagross -- Gira-O WoW's after coming in on Earthquakes while Ferro /Dialga resists Mashes/Zen Headbutts/Pursuits.
    [​IMG] Quagsire -- Ferrothorn + Power Whip + Spikes + Seed or Gira-O for WoW and DTail.
    [​IMG] Salamence -- same vein as rayquaza except it's less bulkier. I also hope that it doesn't get a Moxie boost. Treat it similarly as Rayquaza.
    [​IMG] Scizor -- Arc-Ghost, Gira-O, and Dialga can take U-Turns, Bullet Punches, Superpowers, and Pursuits and proceed to take advantage of whatever it's locked into.
    [​IMG] Shedinja -- WoW, T-Spikes, Roar, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Leech Seed, Judgment.
    [​IMG] Skarmory -- Tentacruel to spin away its Spikes and ideally burn it with Scald. Arceus sets up on it. Giratina-O burns it. Kyogre makes it quiver in fear.
    [​IMG] Tentacruel -- Gira-O and WoW immediately. Then DTail and hope he doesn't burn you w/Scald. Tentacruel handles its Toxic Spikes. Once Gira-O dies, Arceus-Ghost is the next spinblocker.
    [​IMG] Terrakion -- Kyogre revenges all versions. Scarf Terrakion though is weak so I just play around it with Gira-O, Dialga, Arceus, and Ferrothorn.
    [​IMG] Thundurus -- T-Wave w/Ferro and Revenge w/Ogre.
    [​IMG] Tornadus -- See Thundurus except remove Thunder and Dialga to take Hurricanes.
    [​IMG] Tyranitar -- These usually lead so I lead with Dialga who 2HKOes with Aura Sphere before they KO back.
    [​IMG]Victini -- Keep rain up and have Dialga alive to SR and Draco as necessary.
    [​IMG] Whimsicott -- fuck this bitch. Tenta for T-Spikes and Dialga for the SR/Roar. I won't mind it setting up some Leech Seeds if it means I get to set up on it.
    [​IMG] Wobbuffet -- Haven't seen much of this thing. It's a matter of exactly what move I lock myself into. With Ferro, I'll probably Seed. Kyogre will just deal with whatever move it's locked into. Tenta will probably Spin or T-Spike. Dia can SR or Roar. Gira-O can DTail or WoW. Arceus will most likely CM or Judgment. Not really much I can do and I just have to hope I can take on the followup.​

    Shoutouts! (open)

    I could not have made this team without fellow Uber player HSA who made this team with me and guided this for most of the teambuilding. I appreciate your help and I thank you very much. I credit you as a cocreator of this team.

    Thanks to everyone at #vasectomy especially Golden Sun, Earthworm, Lamppost, undisputed, Folgorio, PK Gaming, DJXO9, Nails, Reverb, uragg, Delta, ENZ0, Nachos, Iconic, whistle, Bluewind, Heist, yondie, Atticus, TFC, Eo, Jibaku, rey, Bloo and titty-o for being great bros!

    Thanks to my bros at US bEAST for being chill people, especially BKC, ShakeItUp, dragonuser, LizardMan, Stone, kd24, Peachy, DittoCrow, and Tobes!

    Shoutouts to my bitches from #grammar, mainly Jelli + PikeQueen, Omi, Oglemi, TrollFreak, sirndpt, Eraddd, Ritter, ibojangles, MafeKreep, and V0X!

    Shoutouts to my mafia buddies Quag, RaRe, von, Bass, DLE, ipl, Fate, ginger, kok, billy, aska, Paperblade, the_angry_scientist, Spiffy, Altair, Mithril, UncleSam, and Yeti!

    Other people who are also okay: Plus, twash, Scimjara, bojangles, aldaron, TheSpartan, Playa, Hugendugen, Poppy, Furai, Mihawk, Joeyboy, Vanilla Twilight, AlphaJolt, mostwanted, Jeevs and Megan Fox!

    One last look at the team! (open)

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 Atk / 232 SAtk / 28 Spd
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Draco Meteor

    Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 248 HP / 236 SDef / 24 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Beam
    - Scald

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Power Whip
    - Thunder Wave

    Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Water Spout
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam

    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 SAtk / 200 SDef / 24 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Draco Meteor
    - Aura Sphere
    - Roar

    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Focus Blast
  2. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    Giratina-O / Tentacruel / Forretress / Ghost Arceus / Kyogre / Dialga

    No one rating this?

    Straight off, ExtremeKiller looks a bit worrisome, Ghost Arceus is a shaky check with Judgment and Giratina-O is straight up OHKOd by LO Shadow Claw, so watch out. I know it's a matter of getting Leech Seed off and switching around but it's still a bitch.

    Darkrai is a problem too, as you only have one Pokemon that outspeeds it and nothing to take a Dark Void.

    A Mewtwo with 3 or 4 attacks would prove a threat too, nothing really like switches in on it and it can beat Arceus Ghost if it has CM. Giratina-O shakily checks it, but with a -SDef nature is easily 2HKOd by Ice Beam.

    Rayquaza is also a big problem for teams like these, carrying moves that can severely hurt everything and Arceus Ghost not being to OHKO it is a problem as well.

    I'd also watch out for Kabutops, whose rain boosted Waterfall 2hkos Arceus Ghost (iirc).

    Watch out for Sub Seed Shaymin-S, as it sets up on Ferrothorn and can actually do severe damage with Dialga with a neutral Air Slash if it gets the SDef drop (Expert Belt with Earth Power and HP Fire actually is a bit problem too, but only I use that I think...)

    Gliscor can also set up on Ferrothorn, and much easier a Burned Ferrothorn, and be really annoying.

    A Cloyster + Wobbuffet can also sweep you clean if you're not careful with Ferrothorn.

    A Jolly Bisharp can sweep you clean if it gets a chance to set up.

    Aside from all that this is a very nice team, and a good example of rain balance. There isn't much I can suggest that wouldn't change the whole team, but consider:

    Arceus Grass
    Jirachi over Tentacruel
    Forretress over Ferrothorn
    Giratina-O to phys.def or phys.def Giratina-A.

    This improves the defensive back bone of the team greatly as Arceus Grass can check non-V-Create Rayquaza with Ice Beam, Jirachi can take on Mewtwo and most CM Arceus reliably. Forretress can counter Gliscor with HP Ice. Physically defensive Giratina is a very good check to ExtremeKiller.
    Dialga can run more speed to get the jump on Jolly Bisharp, but it's rare. Kabutops is also nicely checked by Grass Arceus.

    cool team, solid for its metagame
  3. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    well, I sent you a VM, but I guess Poppy outlined my thoughts here didn't he.

    Like I said before(and what poppy brought up), SD Arceus is troublesome, as the checks on the team are shaky. A quick fix to this is changing Gira-O's EV Spread to 208 HP / 60 Atk / 188 Def / 24 SAtk / 28 Spd with a Naughty nature, as it so you takes a +2 SD Arceus's Shadow Claw even after 2 Stealth Rock switch ins, so you can deal with it easier. You could also try Thunder > Draco Meteor for Manaphy, since it can be troublesome as well once Ferrothorn goes down, though you should be able to phaze it out w/ Diagla before it becomes a menace.

    Also, Darkrai and Mewtwo do pose threats, though its harder to fix those without making a significant change. Like I said before, using a Choice Scarf Heracross over Tentacruel works, as you have something to check Darkrai, as well as Mewtwo with Megahorn, plus it checks Shaymin-S w/o a Sub up and Rayquaza w/o DD with Stone Edge(yea, its shaky, but it sadly never got Ice Punch). With that, you could try a bulkier Kyorge spread, since your team requires rain to keep Ho-Oh and Reshiram in check. As such, a Sub CM Kyorge with 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SAtk and Ice Beam or a Thunder Wave Kyorge can both work, as one means Kyorge can switch into Ho-Oh easier, and with 101 HP Subs, sets up on Chans + Bliss, as well as Ferrothorns without Power Whip(not much, but some omit the move), making it easier to break down teams with. If you do decide to try it, and you do go for Ice Beam, which you'll need for Shaymin-S and Rayquaza, defensibly use Thunder > Draco on Gira-O, since Kyorge would be walled by other Kyorge and Manaphy. On the other hand, Thunder Wave Kyorge cripples switch in such as Shaymin-S and Palkia, making it easier for Dialga to break it down. Ofc, you can use either set and alter to EVs to your liking, though the team is good as is, just some suggestions really than a rate.

    So, in summary:

    Bulkier Spread and maybe Thunder > Draco on Gira-O (open)

    Pros: Handle SD Arceus easier. same thing with Mewtwo, Thunder smashes Forrtress, Kyorge and Manaphy

    Cons: Less power, though the Attack EVs allow you to still 2HKO Mewtwo, so you're not losing on anything important; Gira-O will have trouble with Groundon and Dialga, so you may not want to do that, but if you change Kyorge to SubCM, then try it, since you'll need something to hit other Kyorge and Manaphy other than Ferrothorn


    Scarf Heracross > Tenta (open)

    Pros: Revenge killer, Ground-resist(not a bulky one, but one never the less) handles Darkrai and checks Mewtwo, checks Shaymin-S and Quaza(w/o subs or DD anyways) with Stone Edge, along with a few other Pokemon, such as Terrakion, Arceus-Grass, and the Latis to name some

    Cons: W/o tenta, you don't really have anything to sponge Special Attacks such as Reshiram's Blue Flares (unless you use defensive Kyorge) and you lose out on Rapid Spin, but as far as Spinning goes, you don't have any Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock, though Toxic Spikes can be a bitch(did I mention you lose YOUR Toxic Spikes as well), so you'll have to play smart so that it doesn't get up too many


    Sub CM Kyorge or T-Wave > Scarf (open)

    Pros: SubCM with my EV spread gives it bulky 101 HP Subs, meaning you set up on Chans/Bliss and Ferro w/o Power Whip, as well as a Pokemon that can switch into Kyorge easily, plus Kyorge gains way more survivability, meaning that it keeps rain longer, helping out your team, while with T-Wave, you can cripple common Kyorge switch ins, making it easier for the team to deal with later, works even better w/o Tenta, since T-Spikes don't conflict with the team anymore

    Cons: Losing a much more powerful revenge killer than Heracross, so you'll have to think about that. Imo, your team will work better with a bulkier revenge killer, though its your team, its up to you


    Sets (open)

    [​IMG]
    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Sleep Talk
    - Stone Edge


    Great team Andrew, really great team.
  4. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    Messages:
    810
    WAIT THIS IS CHALLENGE ACCEPTED AS IN THE GUY WHO DROVE ME CRAZY WHILE I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHOSE ALT IT IS???

    You realize you better be prepared for an alt war right -_-.

    Ok anyways aside that, this team is actually pretty cool, the setup sweepers mentioned earlier IMO, aren't that big since ogre revenges them anyway, but I do think Specs Ogre may seem to annoy you a bit. IIRC it 2HKOes everything (even Tentacruel at the moment due to lack of Protect), on the team and getting rid of one thing would hurt the teams backbone a good amount.

    There are two ways to fix this though, one is by going Specially Defensive Gira-a is better then your current Gira-o OR you could go with Poppy's suggestions and run a Grass Arceus set with like Perish Song / Judgment / Ice Beam / Recover to counter Specs Ogre. This team is also weak to Tauntrados who can clean up after Kyogre's weakened since it dies to +2 Outrage but I'm probably the only one of thinks that so you should probably ignore me and move on.

    I suggest going with Poppy's suggestions though since they do pair up the backbone of the team, although if you really hate enemy CM Steelceus all you had to do was substitute Focus Blast for Perish Song :P, I thought Arceus-Ghost was just supposed to burn-n-run to Ferro lol.

    Its a really nice team with few threats IMO, and most of the threats listed are already revenged by Kyogre, its a nice team :D.
  5. Razza

    Razza

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
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    Im clueless about ubers, but luvdisced for barney stinson reference :D

    <3 HIMYM
  6. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    The biggest problem I see with this team is the fact that you're lacking firepower or win conditions. Any last mon mono-attacking Calm Mind Arceus with Refresh will just end up destroying you (Dark Arceus, Water Arceus, etc). Your opponent can easily just sac every Pokemon on their team, then bring in Arceus and you cannot do ANYTHING to it. You are also relatively weak to Manaphy, although Ferrothorn works well, I guess. Probably the easiest way to solve this problem is to just stick Perish Song on Arceus, I suppose.
  7. Steven Snype

    Steven Snype
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
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    Poppy (open)


    I'm going to address the individual qualms I've had with these Pokemon as together, I think these changes would change the core drastically and make for a different (but still similarly functioning) really cool team.

    I had been thinking about other Arceus forms initially and Grassceus stuck with me, but using that didn't really help my concerns about being SD Arc weak, unless there's a really weird spread that I don't know about that lets me live both SpecsOgre's assaults and +2 XSpeeds from Arc comfortably. With Ho-Oh and V-Create Ray plaguing this team, I wasn't sure if I wanted another Fire-weak mon.

    Jirachi is admittedly a mon that I had not really given much thought about since I was worried about being weak to offensive Groudon and even weaker to Ho-Oh, though another Dragon-type resistance would be great and the Wish passes would be invaluable; I wasn't too sure about where to fit it.

    Forry was another mon considered for the role of T-Spike + Spin, but I felt that Ferro and Forry was really redundant, and defensively Grass was more valuable than Bug, plus Tentacruel synergized with Rain better.

    Physically defensive Giratina-O is a recent set that people are using and one that I haven't given much thought to. It's worth a test over the current Gira-O spread, and I will let you know how it synergizes with the team. Giratina-A is out of the question as versus opposing Spikes-reliant teams, I prefer Levitate and an offensive presence than Pressure.

    Thank you for the rate Poppy!
    TrollFreak (open)


    Thank you Trollfreak. This rate looks to make ym team more offensively oriented, which is a spin that I had not thought much about. Scarf Cross is an interesting mon to use, but in my general experience with it, it hasn't been too helpful; nonetheless it's a cool revenge killer. I'd tried Thunder at one point, but I hadn't really found it to be that helpful given that I generally tried to phaze out Manaphy to force it to take more hazards damage and I preferred Draco to hit the more common Dialga and Groudon. That EV Spread though is interesting, and I'll try that out too.

    T-Wave Ogre is something that came to mind before, but with the nature of the team, I preferred having them lose residual damage from Burn and Toxic rather than be completely paralyzed as it made it easier for a final Gira-O Shadow Sneak sweep rather than take a 10% Draco Miss chance in a final sweep. Thank you for your rate!

    Mr.lol (open)



    SDef Gira-O is an alternative that I have not given much thought to, but I wasn't too sure about it due to the fact that my spinblocker with no residual recovery would have to take neutral Specs Water Spouts (Rain cancels out resistance) and the fact that stuff often aimed Draco Meteors, Spacial Rends, Ice Beams, Shadow Balls for this thing, and I generally don't like relying on Rest, esp. in BW. Perish Song is an interesting option that I will try out soon, but I preferred the immediate crippling of burns. However, I did not think about trying it out over Focus Blast since I wanted something to hit Rai switch-ins too.
    shrang (open)


    Yes, I wrote up tons of paragraphs for no win conditions and been using Giratina-O and Kyogre without ever using them as a means to damage the opposing teams. It's a wonder how I ever achieved #1 twice and won a team tourney with this team, going 3-2 in Team Trials IV. :evan:

    At 100%, it's a problem, but nobody ever saves it for the very end. They come in a couple of times and I get up a SR layer or a couple of layers of Spikes. It can only pick one move before I generally go to Kyogre, which I generally save for the opposing Arceus, especially if I see a specially based move. If it's not Water, Grass (lol great STAB), or Dragon, they eat Surfs, which generally do 50-60%. If they Refresh, they get 2HKO'd, if they CM, the T-Spikes I've set up earlier will whittle them down a bit more to put them into KO range. Waterceus faces Thunder, which does more damage than Surf. Grassceus doesn't bother me.

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