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Chandelure (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by capefeather, Apr 22, 2011.

  1. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    badal's thread

    (Credit to Zystral for the Choice Scarf set)

    I've split the Choice set into two because this guy is very similar to Heracross in DPP or Kyogre in Ubers. I'm not sure about the ordering, though. I'm not sure if the Calm Mind or Flame Charge sets should be kept. Volcarona largely seems to outclass Chandelure in these departments. If no one speaks up with a reason to use Flame Charge Chandelure over Quiver Dance Volcarona, it will probably stay in AC. I was uneasy on Calm Mind for similar reasons, but until PK Gaming gets back to me on that, I'll go on the fact that Chandelure can 2HKO Chansey and Blissey, and OHKO Tyranitar, after one boost.

    [​IMG]

    Chandelure

    [Overview]

    <p>Chandelure is a mixed bag in many ways. It sports an incredible 145 base Special Attack, but its other base stats are much less impressive, especially considering that it is vulnerable to Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage. While its typing is solid offensively, especially in the sun, it also gives Chandelure key weaknesses that attract dangerous threats such as Terrakion and Landorus, all of whom can easily revenge kill, or even set up on, the rather slow Chandelure. Nonetheless, the Luring Pokemon has some useful immunities to Fire-, Fighting-, and Normal-type attacks. Overall, a team's inclusion of this peculiar cocktail of wallbreaking power and vulnerability to revenge kills can be very rewarding with solid back-up and careful switching.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Pain Split
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Timid / Modest
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The combination of relative frailty and middling Speed leaves Chandelure with little natural staying power, and Substitute works to fix this. Behind this precious shield, Chandelure can make great use of its awesome offensive power with no worry of being crippled by any single-hit offensive move. Very few Pokemon can take Chandelure's STAB moves very well, so this set can be particularly dangerous to offensive teams that may try to use death fodder in the hope of minimizing the damage caused. Tyranitar and Hydreigon that eagerly switch in can be duly punished with a shot or two of Hidden Power Fighting, while Pain Split can be of use if Blissey is more of an issue for the rest of the team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>There are several factors to consider when choosing the item and nature. Timid is usually the best nature here because with it, Chandelure can outrun Timid Politoed and Adamant Dragonite. With Leftovers, 4 HP / 0 SpD Politoed can be 2HKOed by Shadow Ball much of the time (44.1% - 52.2%), and with Life Orb, 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock damage. With Leftovers, a Modest nature does not guarantee a 2HKO on 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful Tyranitar with Hidden Power Fighting (44.6% - 52.5%), but it does guarantee it on 252 HP / 76 SpD Careful Tyranitar (50.5% - 60.4%) where Timid does not (46.5% - 55.4%). This consideration is, of course, moot with Life Orb. Finally, when considering Life Orb, one should strongly consider the residual damage that Chandelure will be taking from Stealth Rock, Spikes, and sandstorm, on top of the Substitute damage.</p>

    <p>The main purpose of Substitute Chandelure is to make the most out of one switch-in, so the focus of its teammates should be to maximize the opportunities for it to switch in and set up a Substitute. Virizion is a good example of a teammate that can lure in opposing Pokemon carrying strong Fire- and Ice-type moves on which Chandelure can capitalize. Hydreigon is another great example, luring in Fighting- and Ice-type attacks, and allowing a free switch-in for Chandelure with U-turn. However, Hydreigon may also attract strong Dragon-type attackers, such as Latios and Salamence.</p>

    <p>It is helpful to minimize the residual damage done to Chandelure. If its team is not directly utilizing sandstorm or hail, Ninetales's Drought is a good way to negate weather damage, and boosts the power of Chandelure's Fire Blast. A Rapid Spin user is another possibility, as Chandelure is vulnerable to all entry hazards. Forretress and Excadrill are good options for this role because they can lure in Fire-type attacks and Ghost-type Pokemon on which Chandelure can switch in. Given that it isunlikely that these Ghost-typeswill use their STAB moves on the switch, Chandelure will usually be safe. Conversely, entry hazards not only help Chandelure to land KOs, but also potentially lure in Forretress, whose attempts to use Rapid Spin Chandelure can block (though Starmie and Excadrill will still pose problems).</p>

    <p>One of the big draws of this set is that it can remove or cripple Tyranitar fairly easily. Doing this in conjunction with another weather inducer will largely neuter sand-reliant opponents, particularly Excadrill and Landorus. Additionally, the opponent will have lost a great specially defensive, mixed offensive tank. This opens up opportunities for a variety of special attackers, such as Heatran, and walls, such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: Energy Ball
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Modest / Timid
    EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Specs Chandelure is an extremely powerful wallbreaker who can leave most opponents really hurting. STAB Fire/Ghost is complemented nicely by Hidden Power Fighting and Energy Ball, the former mainly for Tyranitar and Hydreigon, and the latter mainly for Water-type switch-ins such as Politoed. Immunity to the very common Fire- and Fighting-type attacks is extremely helpful for switching in, and Chandelure can spinblock against Forretress.</p>

    <p>Sunny weather is where Chandelure truly shines. Its Overheat becomes absurdly strong, surpassed only by Sheer Force Darmanitan's Flare Blitz and Solar Power Charizard's Fire Blast, and its Fire Blast is almost as strong, though it does fall short of Victini's V-create and Heatran's Eruption. Unlike Darmanitan and Charizard, however, Chandelure suffers no recoil or recoil-like damage and has useful immunties to Fighting and Fire. This means that, barring entry hazard damage, Chandelure can potentially switch in multiple times and keep firing off its Fire-type STAB.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The following calculations aim to demonstrate the sheer power of Choice Specs Chandelure in the sun:</p>

    <p>Modest Overheat:</p>
    <ul class="damage_calculations">
    <li> vs 4/0 Latios: 93.4% - 109.9% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li> vs 248/8 Gyarados: 77.1% - 90.8% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li> vs 252/252+ Dragonite: 56.7% - 66.8% (2HKO after Stealth Rock + Leftovers)</li>
    <li> vs 248/0 Jellicent: 72.5% - 82.4% (2HKO)</li>
    <li> vs 252/0 Latias: 66.8% - 78.8% (2HKO)</li>
    <li> vs 252/0 Blissey: 65.7% - 77.5% (2HKO, guaranteed after Stealth Rock + Leftovers)</li>
    <li> vs 252/0 Chansey: 55.4% - 65.2% (2HKO after Stealth Rock + Spikes)</li>
    <li>vs 4/0 Kingdra: 54.5% - 64.0% (2HKO after Stealth Rock + Spikes + Leftovers)</li>
    </ul>

    <p>This means that the problem of missing 2HKOs is largely not a factor when choosing between Overheat and Fire Blast. Instead, Overheat vs Fire Blast is mostly a matter of accuracy vs the ability to stay in on revenge kills. However, even -2 Overheat is quite powerful in the sun, more so than many other attacks.</p>

    <p>Speed EVs can be adjusted to outpace certain threats. The listed EV spread outruns 252 Spe Politoed while rounding down Stealth Rock damage; 152 Spe Modest still outruns 216 Spe Timid Magnezone while rounding down Stealth Rock damage, and 224 Spe Modest outruns 208 Spe Naive Cloyster. A Timid nature misses out on some of the above mentioned KOs, making Fire Blast more favored.</p>

    <p>Ninetales is an almost required teammate considering the power boost that it gives, as well as the removal of many of Chandelure's drawbacks. Grass-types such as Virizion and Steel-types such as Scizor tend to be good teammates not just for Chandelure but for a sun team as a whole, due to their good match-ups against Tyranitar, Politoed, and weather abusers in general. Ferrothorn is particularly promising because it is blessed with both types, and Chandelure's typing complements Ferrothorn's very well. Additionally, Ferrothorn's Spikes can guarantee 2HKOs on Chansey and Kingdra if Modest Overheat is being used. A Rapid Spinner such as Forretress can be very helpful, though many do not fare very well against Jellicent and Excadrill loses its excellent Speed in the sun. Although Chandelure can 2HKO specially defensive Tyranitar with Hidden Power Fighting, it will definitely appreciate a different teammate to deal with this very common threat, such as Conkeldurr, Deoxys-S, or Gliscor, most of whom also deal with common revenge killers such as Landorus effectively. Offensively, sweepers such as Volcarona highly appreciate the removal of the aforementioned threats.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast / Overheat
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: Energy Ball
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Modest
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>While Chandelure is not necessarily slow, adding a Choice Scarf turns it into an extremely effective revenge killer. At 387 Speed, this allows it to outspeed a sizable portion of the unboosted metagame, as well as a small selection of Choice Scarf users. Chandelure's power is greatly boosted by sunshine, and defensive sun teams will enjoy having a Chandelure around to crush opposing sweepers, and even though this set lacks the nuclear power of the Choice Specs variant, it'll still hit hard enough to be an effective deterrent. Chandelure's typing and reasonable defenses can give it many opportunities to switch in, which means that you may not necessarily be waiting for a revenge kill, but instead switching into a safe attack and then striking back at the opponent for a handy KO, regardless of whether they switch. The only real choice to make on this set is between Fire Blast and Overheat. While Overheat suits the nature of a Choice item more, in having to attack then switch instantly, Chandelure is not the sort of Pokemon that likes to keep jumping in and out. As a result, Fire Blast is a preferred choice, as Chandelure can switch in, Fire Blast away more than once to whittle down the opposing team, and then switch out to safety.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>Without a doubt, Water-types (especially in the rain) and Tyranitar are Chandelure's biggest problems. Fortunately, if used on a sun-based team, Chandelure will have an abundance of Grass-type teammates ready to take these threats down. This will make Chandelure's sweep easier, and give your defensive Pokemon a much easier time. Other team support comes obviously as follows: Ninetales provides endless sunshine; Steel-types such asSkarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress lure in many Fire-type moves from which Chandelure can obtain a Flash Fire boost; and Pokemon such as Dragonite, Salamence, and Gliscor lure in Ice-type attacksand take down specially defensive Pokemon that are causing problems for Chandelure. Finally, due to being locked into one attack, Chandelure is likely to be switching in and out a lot. Being weak to Stealth Rock, this can be problematic for the longevity of Chandelure. Blissey is an effective provider of Wish, and can sponge many of the special Water-type attacks aimed at Chandelure.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Flamethrower / Fire Blast
    move 3: Shadow Ball / Substitute
    move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Substitute
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Timid / Modest
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Calm Mind Chandelure faces stiff competition with other special sweepers, particularly Volcarona, it holds the distinction of being able to 2HKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey and Chansey in the sun after just one boost. It is also somewhat bulkier than Volcarona and does not suffer nearly as much from Stealth Rock. While the Substitute and Choice Scarf sets lack the power to break through defensive checks, and the Choice Specs set is horribly vulnerable to maneuvers involving Protect or death fodder, Calm Mind Chandelure suffers from neither of these issues, able to attain wallbreaking power or launch an attack without worrying about being locked into the wrong move. However, the need to OHKO the opponent is more pressing due to the turn spent boosting. A middling base 80 Speed doesn't help matters, making Chandelure vulnerable to a host of faster attackers.</p>

    <p>If using Life Orb, Flamethrower is sufficient, albeit barely, to 2HKO Chansey and Blissey in the sun after Stealth Rock damage. Substitute is suggested mainly to block status and set up on Blissey and Chansey, while Hidden Power Fighting can be used to KO Tyranitar. Substitute is a great move in general to compensate for lack of recovery, but using it on a Life Orb set is unwise due to the large amount of self-inflicted damage that would result.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice of item and nature brings significant consequences to Chandelure's utility on a team. A Timid nature allows Chandelure to outrun Timid Politoed and Adamant Dragonite, but a Life Orb is required to OHKO either of them with Shadow Ball and Stealth Rock after a Calm Mind boost (86.3% min for 4 HP / 0 SpD Politoed, 71.8% - 84.7% for 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite). A Modest nature is plausible to try to OHKO 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful Tyranitar after Stealth Rock damage and one round of Leftovers recovery (84.2% min) while guaranteeing the OHKO on 252 HP / 76 SpD Careful Tyranitar under the same conditions (99% min). Leftovers exchanges all of these KOs for a much more lasting presence that emphasizes breaking defensive teams. In this case, Fire Blast is the preferred STAB to ensure the 2HKO on Blissey and Chansey.</p>

    <p>Chandelure's main concerns are landing OHKOs and not fizzling out before doing anything useful. For the former, Stealth Rock and Spikes are very valuable to ensure the OHKOs on Politoed and Tyranitar, especially if Chandelure has a Timid nature. Steel-types, such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Bronzong, and Jirachi, are excellent for setting up hazards because they attract Fire-type attacks into which Chandelure can switch. For the latter, Rapid Spin users, such as Excadrill and Forretress, come to mind due to Chandelure's Stealth Rock weakness. Ninetales helps to fulfill both requirements, powering up Chandelure's STAB moves enough to beat Blissey and Chansey while removing the residual damage from sandstorm.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Two unmentioned moves that may come to mind are Flame Charge and Will-O-Wisp. Indeed, Flame Charge seems like a perfect move to fix Chandelure's Speed, but Volcarona is generally better at this because it is faster, stronger, and specially bulkier after a single Quiver Dance boost than Chandelure is after a Flame Charge boost. A Will-O-Wisp support set seems viable until one realizes that Chandelure is about as bulky as Starmie, does not have a very reliable recovery move, and does not have the Speed, typing, or coverage to make up for its shortcomings. Heatran and Jellicent are much better for the burn supporting role due to their formidable bulk and great defensive typing; Heatran even lures many of the same Pokemon that Chandelure does.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>In the sun, there is no hard counter in the strictest sense of the word, but Tyranitar and Politoed can switch into a STAB move and cause problems with Sand Stream and Drizzle, respectively. A defensive enough Calm Mind Latias can also switch into even a Choice Specs Overheat and survive a second one after a Calm Mind. Porygon2 also comes to mind, being immune to both of Chandelure's STAB moves if it carries Trace, though a Choice Specs or Life Orb Hidden Power Fighting will still hit it very hard. Snorlax works similarly thanks to Thick Fat giving it a resistance to Fire. If the sun isn't up, or if Chandelure lacks Choice Specs, Water-types such as Jellicent and Kingdra, Dragon-types such as Dragonite and Latios, and special walls such as Blissey and Chansey are great counters.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Chandelure's potential hidden ability is Shadow Tag, the main cause of Wobbuffet's banishment to Ubers in the past two generations. Chandelure could make great use of this ability, revenge killing key threats such as Scizor and Gengar perfectly with a Choice Scarf set or setting up Calm Mind on helpless victims such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Choice-locked Pokemon with little effort. Shadow Tag would be the superior option on Calm Mind and Choice Scarf Chandelure, though in the case of the Choice Specs and Substitute sets, one could argue that letting the opponent switch to the appropriate check is what makes these sets so powerful in the first place. A powerful, faster physical attack would still deal with Calm Mind Chandelure unless it has a Substitute up, in which case two attacks from different Pokemon would be needed.</p>
  2. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    flame charge sweeper set?
    @life orb
    modest/timid
    4hp/252spatk/252spe
    -flame charge
    -fire blast
    -shadow ball
    -energy ball

    seems like it oculd work
  3. Majora_younglink

    Majora_younglink

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    I would have to say I don't see the CM set working too well and would rather a Flame Charge set be put in its place. While Ghost/Fire may not be the worst defensive typing in the game it certainly isn't the best around meaning it'll see a lot of SE moves hit it. This is before mentioning that its physical side is easily exploited with rock moves that will almost always OHKO it, most physical attackers even outspeeding the thing due to its mediocre base speed.

    Flame Charge may seem gimmicky but I can see it working a lot better. With its decent speed boosted to scarf speed and the ability to shoot out high power hits from its sky high special attack it can be a major threat to most teams. The fact it resists BP and is immune to Mach is only icing on the cake. I don't have a specific set in mind for that chandelure but something like the above posted probably with more optimized IVs.
  4. little.jeff.w

    little.jeff.w

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    I'm not really sure about the hidden power fighting/ground on the flame charge set. Both seem to be redundant with fire, as they are all super-effective against steel types, plus, flamethrower/fire blast is backed by STAB, making fire blast actually more powerful than them even if it's hitting for neutral damage, and flamethrower is just as powerful hitting for neutral damage while the hidden power moves are hitting for super-effective. Energy ball seems like a much better coverage option as it murders bulky waters. The only reason I would use hp fighting over energy ball would be to hit tyranitar.
  5. Snunch

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    I dont think 8 spe should be the standard amount for specs. In this metagame, there is so much that aims for the mark between Tyranitar and base 70s that Chandelure's naturally higher speed should be somewhat exploited. Increase the speed to outspeed base 70s, because there will be times where outspeeding Politoed, Jellicent, and mons like Scizor and Mew will mean the difference between a win and a loss.
  6. narutom

    narutom

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    Has anyone ever considered running psychic on him?
    I do and it works perfectly for fighting types he gets a free switch in and a super effective move, it works great with mine as no one expects it.

    I have also ran it as a trick room sweeper a very efective one aswell with quiet nature and 0 speed iv's it drops to 93 speed, which will allow it to outrun most common threats chuck a choice specs on it 252SpA and the rest in either defenses or HP it can become very deadly in a trick room team, just more possible considerations
  7. AsynchronousIO

    AsynchronousIO

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    Chandelure has a resistance to Fire, not an immunity. That could complicate things a little.

    Psychic on Chandelure is kinda useless. STAB Fire Blast/Overheat are equally strong/stronger than SE non-stab Psychic unless your opponent is Toxicroak.

    The Trick Room sweeper... Hmm, I guess I'll second that. Sure Bronzong and Reuniclus outslow him, but I figure Chandelure can shaft them both.
  8. InftHitbox

    InftHitbox

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    Chandelure has an immunity to Fire-type when running Flash Fire, which it will until it can run Shadow Tag.
  9. AsynchronousIO

    AsynchronousIO

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    Derp, forgot he could have Flash Fire. Mine has the less useful Flame Body.
  10. AccidentalGreed

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    <ul class="damage_calculations">
    <li> vs 4/0 Garchomp: 97.5% - 114.8% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li> vs 248/8 Gyarados: 77.1% - 90.8% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li> vs 252/252+ Dragonite: 56.7% - 66.8% (2HKO after Stealth Rock + Leftovers)</li>
    <li> vs 248/0 Jellicent: 72.5% - 82.4% (2HKO)</li>
    <li> vs 252/0 Blissey: 65.7% - 77.5% (2HKO, guaranteed after Stealth Rock + Leftovers)</li>
    <li> vs 252/0 Chansey: 55.4% - 65.2% (2HKO after SR+Spikes)</li>
    </ul>

    Kingdra is a....peculiar Pokemon, so I removed him, but that's up to your preference. I would recommend adding Latios, Volcarona (boosted and unboosted after +SpD), and possibly some other specially defensive threats, such as Dusclops, Porygon2, and Calm Togekiss.
  11. Husky

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    I'd strongly suggest checking the 2HKO's, if they are really such, because the SpA drop may cause some of them fail to manage it in the end.
  12. Pokedude25

    Pokedude25

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    may I suggest a DW set? I haven't figured out the ev's or anything like that but give it:
    Item: leftovers
    -acid armor
    -calm mind
    -flamethrower
    -shadow ball
    ability: shadow tag

    ok so it's simple trap a poor helpless pokemon that can't do anything (i.e scizor choice scarf magnazone etc.) then max out def/sp. def/sp. atk then sweep the whole team with shadow ball/flamethrower no pokemon can stop this strategy unless they get a critical hit (I tried it on PO once)
  13. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    because shandera's dw ability hasn't been released, they will not put it on the analysis

    also i just doubt this sets effectiveness without recovery tbh
  14. leeward8

    leeward8

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    for the choice spec set, regarding to speed EV, you should add additional 4 EVs to each suggestions because running hidden power fighting means Chandelure will have 30 iv in speed, therefore the suggested EVs will only tie with the targeted pokemon, not outrun them
  15. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    lol, thanks, leeward8.

    @ AG:
    I added Lati@s calcs, but even they seem rather redundant. You may notice that almost every result in each calc is different, and even with Garchomp and Gyarados, it's different since the SR damage is different. Lati@s is important enough that I let them through, though. I mean, considering Garchomp is OHKOed, it's pretty obvious what's going to happen to Volcarona. Same for Blissey vs Porygon2 et al. Kingdra, while UU, still gives a far more informative calc.

    @ Husky:
    I assure you I double-checked every calc to make sure that the set/spread in question indeed achieves what is advertised ^_^
  16. leeward8

    leeward8

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    sorry, it's me again on Choice Spec speed EV issue

    at 30 iv,
    modest chandelure needs 180 evs (hits 240) to outrun max speed modest politoed (hits 239)
    modest chandelure needs 148 evs (hits 232) to outrun 216 speed timid magnezone (hits 231)
    modest chandelure needs 224 evs (hits 251) to outrun 208 speed naive cloyster (hits 250) <- this was correct


    i understand the numbers now, it's to minimize SR round down damage
  17. capefeather

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    Not sure how I screwed up the Magnezone thing, lol. The SR damage round-down has been clarified as a factor.
  18. Setsuna

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    Looks good! On the CM set, don't forget to explain why one should use Fire Blast over Flamethrower and vice versa (you can use calcs to support your explanation).

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  19. wilson46

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    Be sure to write in that Life Orb on the Calm Mind set is only to be used with the Hidden Powers, as Sub + LO + other residual damage like sandstorm and no way to heal yourself (like Pain Split on the sub set) is bad. Other than that,

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  20. Bloo

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    What they said.

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  21. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Thanks, everyone!

    I should probably prioritize Dragonite over this. Hopefully, that won't take too long, but after that I'll get to writing this.

    EDIT:
    Code:
    023539 <%PKGaming> you need to a Sub + 3 atks Chandelure
    023552 <%PKGaming> i'll talk it over with the other QC member, but MY GOD its so good
    023610 <capefeather> I do have sub + 3 attacks (though atm pain split is slashed with hp fight)
    023639 <%PKGaming> It should be the first set listed
    023646 * Bluewind (Mibbit@DC827479.6D912E7E.7A4DEC49.IP) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
    023710 <capefeather> ok
    023718 <%PKGaming> Since it works outside of sun too. HP Fighting should get the primary slash
    023806 <capefeather> yeah that was one of the things I was going to do "once I finished dragonite" (which I sorely underestimated)
    024355 <%Snunch> is gigalith completely outclassed by rhyperior?
    024412 <%PKGaming> YES
    024432 <%Snunch> aww
    024620 <capefeather> I'm guessing you've been using lefties and that should be the first slash
    024639 <%PKGaming> LO actually, but i'll test out lefties in a bit. For now make lefties the primary slash
    I'm going to hold off on moving Substitute to the top until I hear more from the QC peeps about this, but this is what is going on currently.

    EDIT: another update
    Code:
    083507 <&PKGaming> hey guys
    083532 <&PKGaming> I know we already QCed Chandelure but I think the sets should be re-ordered
    083619 <&wilson46> what is it currently
    083710 <&PKGaming> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104054
    083842 <&wilson46> it looks okay
    083847 <&wilson46> what did you have in mind
    084012 <&PKGaming> Sub > Specs > scarfed > Calm mind (maybe)
    084444 [b]<&wilson46> sub can go before scarf for sure[/b]
    084502 <&wilson46> specs is pretty solid in my experience
    084547 <&PKGaming> Dude, sub is incredible! It messes with offensive teams with that incredible power. 2HKOing ttar with hp fight is no joke
    084712 <&blue> Heh, Sub is fantastic! :)
    084847 <&wilson46> ok then
    084919 <&blue> nah but for real
    [b]084922 <&blue> sub is p legit
    084938 <&blue> mainly cause tar cant just come in on overheat and shit on you with pursuit
    085001 <&blue> so im fine w/ having it first[/b]
    Code:
    131252 <+Zy> can i hop in, write those two and we take it as a joint-analysis? you did most of it so i'm happy for you to take most of the creit
    [...]
    131803 <+Zy> i'll have scarf up later tonight
    [...]
    131812 <+Zy> and then i'l ask pk gaming on the status of CM
    Basically Zy is writing the Choice Scarf set, and Substitute is at the top.
  22. Shadows_Friend

    Shadows_Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
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    I don't know whether this is too obvious to be written in the analysis, but it may be helpful if you added the information that 252 Spe Timid Chandelure is only able to tie with 252 Spe Jolly Dragonite if you don't pack the Hidden Power Fighting to the Substitute set.
  23. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    2,884
    Right...

    Also CM has been expanded. Now, where's Zy...?
  24. Aeromence

    Aeromence

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2011
    Messages:
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    omg its amazing how much damage specs chandy can bring up
  25. Majora_younglink

    Majora_younglink

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2011
    Messages:
    183
    I actually have a few reason to state for the Flame Charge set that gives it a few niche benefits over Volc, even if I don't care either way about it being a main set. One point is how it is immune to the two most common priority in this metagame and resists the third. Sure it has an Aqua Jet weakness but so does Volc so that point is sort of moot (Sucker Punch weakness is unfortunate however). Another benefit that it has over Volc is that with Flash Fire it can come in on many more pokemon and if they're Choice proceed to get a free Flame Charge on the switch. Chandelure can also take out opposing Terrakion, assuming they are not Scarf, and KO them with a Shadow Ball/HP Ground if the Terrakion has some previous damage on it. Same deal with the Dragon pokemon that Volcarona has trouble with as well (every single one of them has a Stealth Rock weakness so residual damage is easy enough to stack).

    Don't really expect the set to be a main one but I just wanted to make a point that it isn't totally outclassed.

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