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Chandelure [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Ace Emerald, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    Chandelure
    [​IMG]

    [Overview]

    <p>The UU tier is home to a plethora of insanely powerful Fire-types. While most hit very hard physically with their Flare Blitzes and V-creates, Chandelure stands out by hitting just as hard specially. Chandelure's secondary Ghost-typing gives it opportunities to switch in as UU is littered with Fighting-types and is heavily focused on entry hazards, making Ghost's immunities very useful. Chandelure has two great abilities to choose from. Flash Fire grants Chandelure immunity to the many powerful Fire-type moves in the tier, giving it opportunities to switch in for free and spam boosted Fire moves. However, such a play yields inconsistent result, as the Fire-types in question, such as Darmanitan and other Chandelure, can severely damage or KO Chandelure with a common coverage move, such as Earthquake and Shadow Ball, respectively. Flame Body sacrifices this immunity for the ability to muscle past Porygon2, as the latter will no longer Trace a Fire immunity.</p>

    <p>That being said, Chandelure doesn't come without its flaws, including some common ones. For starters, Chandelure has extremely inconvenient weaknesses to Water-, Ground-, Dark-, and Rock-type attacks. The latter two make for crippling weaknesses to Stealth Rock and Pursuit, two fairly common sights in UU. Chandelure is also quite frail and has below average Speed. Having considered all of these flaws, Chandelure is still a very powerful threat in the current metagame and should always be prepared for.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubSplit
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Pain Split
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 184 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Due to Chandelure's sheer power, it will force the opponent to switch out often. This provides a perfect opportunity to set up a Substitute. Substitutes do a great job of making up for Chandelure's frailty and can turn it into a deadly sweeper. Fire Blast is again the STAB move of choice, providing more power than Flamethrower. Overheat does not work well for this set because most of the time multiple attacks will be used before switching out. Shadow Ball is a strong, reliable secondary STAB move. It can hit many things extremely hard that can take a few Fire Blasts, such as bulky Water-types, which usually don't invest much in Special Defense. Pain Split allows Chandelure to simultaneously cripple the opponent and recover HP lost as tribute to Life Orb and Substitute. This is especially effective against the common Chandelure counter Snorlax, as his high HP will give Chandelure a large health boost.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread again maximizes Chandelure's huge Special Attack and provides enough Speed for it to function. Modest is used for even more power; the loss in Speed is nebulous as Timid Chandelure doesn't outspeed anything that Modest Chandelure doesn't outspeed. As it is, Chandelure is fast enough to Substitute against standard Honchkrow, ending Sucker Punch mindgames. The 4 Special Defense EVs are put in place to give a physical boost to the likes of download Porygon-Z and Porygon2 rather than a special one. While it may seem counterintuitive to invest in HP on a Pain Split set, Chandelure's HP is low enough that Pain Split still steals a lot of health from the opponent, and it gives some necessary bulk. Heracross cannot OHKO 100% health Chandelure with Stone Edge, and Porygon2's Discharge only has a 50% chance to break Chandelure's Substitute, instead of a 100% chance. This set prefers Flame Body, as without it, Chandelure is unable to get past Porygon2. Flash Fire is always an option for the immunity and chance to hit even harder with Fire Blast, but switching a slow Chandelure into Fire Pokemon with coverage moves is always dangerous. As for every set, a spinner, for example Blastoise, is a great teammate to have, as it keeps away the hazards that severely cripple Chandelure. Roserade is also a good teammate because it takes Water-type attacks that hurt Chandelure and lays down Spikes to help Chandelure sweep.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Fire Blast / Overheat
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: Energy Ball / Trick
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest
    evs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 128 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With base 145 Special Attack, boosted 50% by Choice Specs, Chandelure is easily one of the most powerful special attackers in the tier. Whenever it switches in, there is a very high possibility that something from the opposing team will faint. Choice Specs further improves Chandelure's already massive Special Attack, making it very difficult to take on. Fire Blast is the standard attack. Overheat is a good alternative, as it provides even more power, but the fact that if usually forces Chandelure to switch out after using one move usually outweighs the increase in power. Shadow Ball is another powerful STAB attack that can be used to break most of the things that resist Chandelure's more powerful STAB move, namely bulky Water-types (especially Slowbro).</p>

    <p>Hidden Power Fighting gives needed coverage, hitting Houndoom and Snorlax. Chandelure can also use Trick instead of Energy Ball to target the same type of Pokemon and cripple them for the rest of the match. Energy Ball is a good coverage move, but Choice Specs-boosted Shadow Ball will usually 2HKO bulky Water-types and Rhyperior, the target of Energy Ball. Trick makes Chandelure a little more of a team player. If Snorlax, the most reliable Chandelure counter, is crippled by Trick, the opposing team has very little to stop your other special sweeper.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread maximizes Chandelure's already huge Special Attack stat and makes Chandelure faster than 0 Speed Arcanine and other base 95s like Xatu. Modest Nature adds even more power to Chandelure's attacks, allowing Chandelure to 2HKO most Pokemon, with the exception of a few such as Snorlax. The 8 Special Defense EVs are put in place to give Download users such as the Porygon family an Attack boost upon switching in and to keep Chandelure at a HP number not divisible by four. The rest is invested in HP for overall bulk. While this set prefers Flame Body in order to spam Fire moves past Porygon2, Flash Fire is still viable as Hidden Power Fighting will 2HKO the duck anyways. Flamethrower can be considered as the last move if you aren't particularly worried about bulky Water-type Pokemon, such as Milotic and Suicune, and it can be used in times when a Fire Blast miss would be deadly. However, the 2HKOs and coverage that Energy Ball provides or the team support Trick provides will usually outweigh Flamethrower. As Chandelure is weak to Stealth Rock, and is still hurt by Spikes, a Rapid Spin user or Xatu is a great partner to have on the team. A powerful Fighting-type attacker is also of great use, picking off bulky Normal-types that haunt Chandelure. Scrafty in particular has great synergy with Chandelure; it can absorb Ghost, Rock, Dark, and any weak moves such as Body Slam from Snorlax, and in return attracts Fighting moves for Chandelure to get into battle. As Scrafty is a late-game sweeper, he appreciates the massive damage Choice Specs Chandelure can deal to the opponent's team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Energy Ball
    move 4: Trick / Hidden Power Fighting
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Even without a Choice Specs boost, Chandelure can still hit very hard with its base 145 Special Attack. Its relatively slow Speed cripples Chandelure the most, but equipping it with a Choice Scarf is the best remedy. It will turn Chandelure into a decently fast sweeper that can revenge kill nearly any sweeper that doesn't boost Speed. Fire Blast is once again the STAB Fire-type move of choice, being as powerful as possible without a negative side effect. It is of course less accurate than Flamethrower, but the extra power is necessary, especially on this set. Shadow Ball is the other necessary STAB that can hit a lot of Pokemon hard that Fire Blast cannot.</p>

    <p>Energy Ball is a very effective coverage move and can still hit a few bulky Water-types and Rhyperior harder than either of its STABs. Trick works better on the Choice Scarf set than it does on the Choice Specs set, because the extra Speed allows Chandelure to outspeed many more Pokemon and cripple them by locking them into a single move. Hidden Power Fighting is still an option of course, allowing Chandelure to break through the bulky Normal-types that would otherwise wall it, as well as Houndoom. However, without the Choice Specs boost, Chandelure deals much less damage, and is unable to do anything without a lot of prior damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As usual, the EVs are to maximize Chandelure's Special Attack and the Speed boost to beat out as many threats as possible. The 4 Special Defense EVs are used to give Download users an Attack boost rather than a Special Attack boost upon switching in. Timid is the nature of choice, as it can outspeed Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross and Krookodile, Lilligant after a boost, and Jolly max Speed Crobat. However, Modest can still be used for extra power. Flash Fire is the preferred ability on this set, as muscling past Porygon2 isn't as important for a revenge killer and late-game sweeper. As Chandelure is weak to Stealth Rock, and is hurt by Spikes, a Rapid Spin user or Xatu is usually a great teammate to have. A powerful Fighting-type is a great teammate, because of its ability to break through Pokemon that can take both of Chandelure's STABs well. Swords Dance Heracross can make a great partner for this set. This set sacrifices more power for more Speed, and while that allows it to become more effective against fast-and-frail offensive teams, it loses the ability to get through defensive teams a effectively. The massive power of Swords Dance Heracross will run through defensive Pokemon, and the pair has decent synergy. Togekiss also earns a mention for ability to wreck defensive teams, but it unfortunately shares Chandelure's Rock weakness.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Energy Ball / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Flame Body
    nature: Modest
    evs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 184 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set sacrifices power for eased prediction and protection from Pursuit. The goal of the set is to force a switch with Chandelure's massive power and set up Substitute to ease prediction. The Substitute allows Chandelure to dodge potentially fatal hits from faster Pokemon, and retaliate with its still huge Special Attack. Many Pokemon that could otherwise trap Chandelure with Pursuit now have to take a Fire Blast or potentially crippling coverage move. Fire Blast and Shadow Ball are the obligatory STABS of the set. They get good neutral coverage, and hit hard even without a boosting item thanks to Chandelure's gargantuan Special Attack. Energy Ball wrecks bulky Water-types, like Swampert, Milotic, and Suicune, who become more of a threat as the boost-providing item is the reason Chandelure 2HKOes them. It also cripples specially defensive Rhyperior, OHKOing with a little bit of prior damage. However, Will-O-Wisp can be used instead of Energy Ball for nearly the same effect. It ruins Swampert, Rhyperior, Snorlax, among other physical attackers who might try and check Chandelure. Shadow Ball still deals a lot of damage to other bulky Water-types, especially the common Slowbro.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs allow Chandelure to safely use Substitute against Honchkrow, which helps end Sucker Punch mindgames. The 4 Special Defense EVs ensure Download Pokemon get an Attack boost, and the rest is dumped in Chandelure's low HP. Naturally, Special Attack is maximized so Chandelure can deal the most possible damage. As this is a Substitute set, Flame Body is preferred because the set lacks a way to get past Porygon2 otherwise. The power given by a Flash Fire boost is very attractive on this set without a boosting item, but coverage moves on Fire Pokemon make it very dangerous to attempt a switch. Taunt can be used instead of Energy Ball or Will-O-Wisp. It can prevent set up by opposing Pokemon and the Foresight + Rapid Spin combination, but without a coverage move or status, Chandelure finds it even harder to break through teams. Leftovers are needed as Chandelure cannot recover health for more Substitutes without Pain Split. If the punch from Life Orb is missed, the SubSplit set should be used. This set appreciates hazards even more than others, as it lacks the power given by Life Orb or Choice Specs. Heracross can break through a burned Snorlax and Porygon2 very easily, and the Choice Scarf set can both weaken the opponent's team, as well as sweep late-game when Chandelure has spread status and damage across the opposing team. It also has some type synergy, taking weak Dark attacks with its resistance. As with any Chandelure set, any spinner or Xatu are welcome teammates as they can assuage Chandelure's fear of entry hazards.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Chandelure has a very expansive movepool for a Fire-type, and this does come with a few more moveset options. Calm Mind is Chandelure's best boosting option, and makes its attacks even more powerful. The problem with this set is the fact that Chandelure is relatively slow and will usually get outsped and KOed before getting too many boosts up. A support set is somewhat viable, consisting of moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Pain Split, and other support moves. Usually though, Chandelure's offensive FIREpower is too good to pass up, and it is outclassed by other defensive Ghosts like Cofagrigus or Sableye.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>As for all of the sets, there are few counters to Chandelure largely due to its sheer offensive power. Snorlax can absorb any special attack with his bulk and is one of the only sure counters. However, even he fears burn from the Substitute set and Trick from the Choice sets. Houndoom can absorb Fire moves, and resists Ghost moves while threatening Pursuit or Sucker Punch, but his frailty makes him a check at best. Porygon2 can check the Choice Scarf set, as it runs Flash Fire more than Flame Body, but that's all it can do anymore. Any fast Pursuit user can check Chandelure. Weavile, Krookodile, Honchkrow, and the previously mentioned Houndoom can all come in after a KO, and trap Chandelure. However, all but Houndoom must fear a Substitute, as Chandelure can KO or cripple them from behind one. Any fast, powerful Pokemon can also check the frail Chandelure, especially as its hazard weakness will often leave it weak enough for a KO. Even just forcing it out is a minor victory, as switching back in can be very painful.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Shadow Tag is Chandelure's amazing unreleased ability that has proven itself broken on a much weaker Pokemon, Gothitelle. When the ability is released, Chandelure can basically kiss UU goodbye as it will most likely move up to OU or even Ubers.</p>
  2. Santuga

    Santuga

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    I have been using Chandelure a lot lately (the Specs set) and I really find Flamethrower to be the move I lock myself in the most. I am not a QC member or anything but I think the moveset should be:

    move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Energy Ball

    Not sure about the order of the slashes on the last move, but I guess you can put pressure on Porygon2 with HP Fighting since it is a 2HKO

    Timid is probably the better nature for the Substitute set, but I am not an expert when it comes to speed tiers. However, I think Chandelure is sitting in a very competitive speed tier that allows to outspeed certain threats if they are running Modest/Adamant instead of Timid/Jolly, so it might be worth a shot.

    Another thing. Don't SubSplit and Sub + 3 attacks work differently? I have never used it, but it seems like it
  3. Nas

    Nas Thinking of a master plan...
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    The choice specs set should definately come before the choice scarf set. The scarf set isn't very useful imo, it can't revenge kill many of the pokemon you'd want from a scarfer, (+1 Kingdra, +1 Lilligant, +2 Omastar, pretty much every other scarfed mon you'll encounter) not to mention that being weak to every form of hazards is going to severely limit its amount of switchins. I'd still keep it in the analysis, but the choice specs set should be listed as #1. Speaking of which, Fire blast should be the first move, with Overheat slashed in. Chandelure isn't always going to be forced out after its first attack, and two Overheats is less powerful than two Fire Blasts. For example, Blastoise and Swampert are both KOed by 2 consecutive Fire Blasts w/SR, whereas they survive 2 Overheats and will KO you with their torrent-boosted stabs.
  4. Omicron

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    I don't think you should be slashing Flamethrower with Energy Ball on the Specs set. Energy Ball scores lovely 2HKOes on things like Milotic and Suicune, and to give up that capability for a weaker Fire-type STAB is just unnecessary. I also agree with moving up the Choice Specs set to the first slot. Choice Scarf Chandelure has been decidedly mediocre in my experiences with it.
  5. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Yeah, Specs should definitely be listed first and Fire Blast should go before Overheat.

    Also, I know this is still a WIP, but you'll need to expand your skeleton quite a bit for us to approve it.
  6. TSTEF

    TSTEF

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    Ok, I changed the order of the sets, putting the Specs set first, and I reversed the order of Fire Blast and Overheat on that set. I removed Flamethrower from that set as well, Energy ball is a far better option. I'll continue working on the skeleton.
  7. Omicron

    Omicron
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    You should also probably mention that Chandelure is one of the very select few Pokemon that can take Victini and Darmanitan's V-create and Flare Blitz, respectively. Victini can't do much damage with any of its moves, and Chandelure gets a free substitute on the switch out. Darmanitan is a bit more dangerous to switch into thanks to its access to Rock Slide and Earthquake, but if you predict right, and you've determined that Darmanitan is indeed a Choice Scarf / Band user, then it will definitely pay off.
  8. Psychotic

    Psychotic Foulest thing about time; it still ticks when you gone

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    You say that bulky waters counter all sets that lack Energy Ball, but this is simply not true. The Specs set, and even Life Orb set can 2HKO most bulky waters. The only true counters to Chandelure are Snorlax and Porygon2, but Pursuit users should still be mentioned as checks. Also, on the Specs set you should slash in Timid as the secondary nature. This is primarily to outspeed Kingdra, all of which run neutral speed nature, but it also helps you outrun Adamant Heracross, Togekiss, and other Chandelure.
  9. Nas

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    The substitute set should just be called "Substitute". Also, I think Flame Body deserves an AC mention at least, since it removes Porygon2 as a counter and is more useful than Flash Fire in higher levels of play.
  10. PK Gaming

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    You should slash HP Fighting with Trick on the 3rd slot of the Choice Specs set. They both target the same Pokemon (SpD walls like Umbreon, Snorlax & P2.). Trick can completely cripple them for the rest of the match. It's true that with some prior damage you're 2hkoing their asses with HP fight anyway, but that is a liberty that is not always available to you. Especially effective against stall teams.

    It comes down to Reliability vs High Risk / High reward.
  11. TSTEF

    TSTEF

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    Ok, a few changes have been made and the skeleton has been expanded. I've yet to expand the choice scarf set, I'll probably get to that later tonight.
  12. nob

    nob

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    You should slash overheat with fire blast on the Choice Scarf set, like you did in the specs set.
  13. TSTEF

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    Alright, done with skeleton, ready for QC.
  14. DestinyUnknown

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    I think Timid should get a better mention on the Substitute set because it outspeeds Adamant Heracross, Modest Nidoking, Adamant/Modest Kingdra (specially important because it means it cant switch in) and ties at worst with other Timid Chandelure.
  15. FlareBlitz

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    Mention Flame Body as a potential ability. It lets you beat one of your biggest counters without getting locked into HP Fighting, and it can severely troll u-turn users, moxiecross, and can even be useful as a last-ditch effort to stop something like Crobat or Honchkrow from sweeping. Not sure if it's worth a slash, but it should definitely be given a strong mention.
  16. TSTEF

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    And who is that? Out of Chandelure's 3 biggest counters, P2 makes contact with none of its moves, Snorlax doesnt have a contact move that effects Chandelure (aside from the occasional Pursuit, which will maim Chandelure anyway), and Umbreon will make contact but even if he does and you get the burn off, your still getting burnt yourself and Umbreon usually carries heal bell.
  17. alexwolf

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    When using Flame Body, Porygon2 gets hit by Fire moves because he Traces your ability. And wtf man, don't you know that Fire types can't be burned?
  18. TSTEF

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    True, I didn't think of that. And i didn't realize Umbreon wont burn Fire-types with his ability, sorry about that. I just figured he was talking about the actual ability for Porygon2 rather that Trace.
  19. kokoloko

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    Yeah I agree with a stronger mention of Flame Body. Once that's done,

    QC Approved 1/3
  20. Psychotic

    Psychotic Foulest thing about time; it still ticks when you gone

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    I personally think Flame Body deserves a slash, but I rarely see anyone else using it over Flash Fire. Flash Fire is probably the most helpful ability on a majority of teams, so just mentioning Flame Body should be fine.

    QC Approved 2/3
  21. Ginku

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    Agreeing with the above, getting past trace P2 is huge. Also, the sub and scarf sets don't actually say anything about energy ball in the writeup and just have it listed in the set. Other than that

    [qc]3/3[/qc]
  22. TSTEF

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    Thanks for the stamps, I'll get to writing this up soon.
  23. TSTEF

    TSTEF

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    Written Up, Ready for GP
  24. Zacchaeus

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  25. Oglemi

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    TSTEF please address Zacc's amateur check

    you don't have to implement everything that he changed, just what you agree with

    if you have questions, ask, and don't implement it and the next gper will address it

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