1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Chandelure [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Ace Emerald, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. TSTEF

    TSTEF

    Joined:
    May 17, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    sorry about that, the first time i looked his check was a WIP, and i forgot to check back here. ill implement the changes ASAP
  2. TSTEF

    TSTEF

    Joined:
    May 17, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Alright, Zacc's changes have been implimented. Sorry for the delay
  3. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    651
    Placeholder
  4. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,048
    two things:

    1) We do NOT use the word spectrum in analyses because it is *not* a spectrum. I don't get it there are physical attacks and there are special attacks: cut and dry. There aren't attacks that are 30% physical and 70% special (I will shoot anyone that says Psyshock or Psystrike -.-). [/endrant]

    2) When you use <p> tags the first word should be touching it. ie "<p>Chandelure</p> > <p> Chandelure</p>
  5. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    651
    am check.

    Remove
    Add
    Comment




    diff (open)

    [Overview]

    <p> The UU tier is home to a plethora of insanely powerful Fire-types. Most of them hit very hard from the physical side of the spectrum, putting dents in many teams with their Flare Blitzes or V-Creates. However, one Pokemon stands out for hitting just as hard specially. That Pokemon is Chandelure. Armed with the highest Special Attack of any non-legendary Pokemon, Chandelure can be a prominent threat in UU. Chandelure's powerful Fire-type attacks are by no means the only thing it has going for it, it's Ghost typing is incredibly useful as well. UU is littered with Fighting-types and is heavily focused on entry hazards, making Ghost a very important type. Chandelure has two great abilities to choose from, Flash Fire being the more commonly used one, grantsing Chandelure immunity to the many powerful Fire-type moves in the tier. Flame Body should not be overlooked, however, as it allows Chandelure to get past one of its major walls, Porygon2.</p>

    <p> That being said, Chandelure doesn't come without it's no apostrophe flaws, some of them being very large are abundant. For starters, Chandelure has extremely inconvenient weaknesses to types like Water-, Ground-, Dark-, and Rock-type attacks hyphens. The latter two make for crippling weaknesses to Stealth Rock and Pursuit, two fairly common sights in UU. Not only that, but Chandelure is also fairly quite frail, and has inconveniently below average speed. Having considered all of theose flaws, Chandelure is still a very powerful threat in the current metagame, and should almost always be prepared for.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Fire Blast / Overheat
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Trick
    move 4: Energy Ball
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p> With base 140 Special Attack, boosted 50% by Choice Specs, Chandelure is easily one of the most powerful special attackers in the tier. Whenever it switches in, there is a very high possibility that something from the opposing team will faint. Choice Specs is chosen to further improve Chandelure's already massive Special Attack SpA, Makeing making it very difficult to take on. Fire Blast is the standard attack because it prolongs the time in which Chandelure can break walls, rather than having to switch-out hyphen after one attack. Overheat is a good alternative, as it provides even more power, but the fact that if usually forces Chandelure to switch out after using one move usually outweighs the increase in power. Shadow Ball is another powerful STAB attack that can be used to break most of the things that resist Chandelure's more powerful STAB move, namely bulky waters (especially Slowbro).</p>

    <p>Hidden Power Fighting is a great option to fill the third moveslot, as it allows Chandelure to 2HKO most of the things Pokemon that wall it's no apostrophe first two moves, namely Trace Porygon2, Houndoom, and Snorlax with some prior damage. If that move doesn't suit your fancy, another alternative is Trick. Trick will target the same type of Pokemon, and cripple them for the rest of the match, rather than just put some damage on them. Energy Ball is a great coverage move to round off the set. It allows you to score a 2HKO on the likes of Suicune and Milotic, and allows you to hit Rhyperior incredibly hard as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>No spaceThe given EV spreads was designed to maximizes Chandelure's apostrophe already huge sSpecial aAttack stat, and provide a decent amount of speed. While Chandelure is by no means fast, 252 Speed EVs are helpful to outspeed a few select threats. Modest is used to add even more power to Chandeulre Chandelure's attacks, basically eliminating foes that can take every hit from the set twice, with the exception of a few: Snorlax and Trace Porygon2, along with Houndoom if the set lacks HP Fighting). The 4 SpD Special Defense EVs are put in place to give download users like such as the Porygon family an Attack boost upon switching in. Flamethrower can be considered as the last move if you aren't particularly worried about things like bulky Water-type Pokemon, such as Milotic and Suicune, and it can be used in times when a Fire Blast miss would be deadly. However, the 2HKOs and coverage that eEnergy Ball provides will usually outweigh Flamethrower this, however. As Chandelure is weak to Stealth Rock, and is hurt even more by Spikes, a Rapid Spinner or Xatu is usually a great partner to have on the team. A powerful Fighting-type attacker is also of great use, picking off bulky Normal-types hyphen that haunt Chandelure.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Pain Split / Energy Ball
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Due to the sheer power that Chandelure provides, it will force the opponent to switch out often. This provides a perfect opportunity to set up a sSubstitute. Substitutes do a great job of making up for Chandelure's frailty, and can allow it to turn into a deadly sweeper. Fire Blast is again the STAB of choice, providing more power than Flamethrower. Overheat does not work well for this set because most of the time, more than one attack will be used before switching out. Shadow Ball is very strong, reliable secondary STAB. It can hit many things extremely hard that can take a few Fire Blasts, just like on the Choice Specs set. Without the Choice Specs boost, Shadow ball loses a few of the 2HKOs and OHKOs it gets otherwise, but it is still a reliable STAB move.</p>

    <p>Energy Ball is a very nice coverage move to have in the last slot, to make up for some of the power that Chandelure loses from the Choice Specs set. Energy Ball gets some nice 2HKOs and OHKOs on bulky Water-types and other bulky Pokemon that are weak to gGrass-type attacks. Pain Split is another great move for the last slot because Chandelure has a relatively low HP stat and it can prolong its life span while shortening that of the enemy's.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread again maxes out Chandelure's huge SpA Special Attack, and provides enough Speed for it to function. Modest is used for even more power, as the speed boost Timid provides will only allow Chandelure to outspeed a few select things Pokemon, none of which are extremely important for the Substitute set. The 4 SpD Special Defense EVs are put in place to give a physical boost to the likes of download Porygon-Z and Porygon2 rather than a special one. Taunt is a decent option in the last slot, as it can stop things Pokemon from healing off the damage Chandelure causes, or using a combination of Foresight and Rapid Spin to get rid of hazards. Will-O-Wisp can also work in the fourth slot to cripple physical attackers that will come in and attempt to break the Substitute Chandelure has set up. As for every set, a spinner like ,for example Blastoise, is a great teammate to have, as it keeps away the hazards that severely cripple Chandelure. Roserade is also a good teamate because it takes Water-type attacks that hurt Chandelure and lays down Spikes to help it Chandelure sweep.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Energy Ball
    move 4: Trick / Hidden Power Fighting
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Modest / Timid spacing
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Again, even without a Choice Specs boost, Chandelure can still hit very hard, with its base 140 SpA Special Attack. It's no apostrophe relatively slow Speed is one of the things that hurts cripples Chandelure the most, and equipping it with a Choice Scarf is the best remedy. It will turn Chandelure into a decently fast sweeper, no comma that can revenge kill many of the best Pokemon in the tier. Fire Blast is once again the STAB Fire-type move of choice, being as powerful as possible without a SpA drop side effect. It is of course less accurate than Flamethrower, but the extra power is definitely needed, especially on thise Scarf set. Like every other set, Shadow Ball is another very reliable STAB that can hit a lot of things hard that Fire Blast cannot.</p>

    <p>No spaceEnergy Ball is a very effective coverage move, and can still hit a few bulky Water-types and Rhyperior harder than either of it's no apostrophe STABs. Trick works better on the Choice Scarf set than it does on the Choice Specs set, because the extra Speed will allows Chandelure to outspeed many more things Pokemon and cripple them badly by locking them into a single move. Hidden Power Fighting is still an option of course, allowing it Chandelure to break through the bulky Normal-types that can would otherwise wall it, and allowing it in addition Hidden Power Fighting allows Chandelure to beat Houndoom as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As usual, the EVs are to maximize Chandelure's apostrophe SpA stat Special Attack to the fullest, and the boost Speed boost to beat out as many threats as possible. The 4 SpD Special Defense EVs are used to give Download users an Attackk boost rather than a SpA Special Attack boost upon switch-in hyphen. Modest is still the nature of choice for this set, because Chandelure really appreciates the extra power it gives, but Timid becomes much more viable on this e Scarf set, because the Speed boost allows Chandelure to outspeed a few more important threats. These include Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross and Krookodile, and Lilligant after a boost, comma to name a few. As Chandelure is weak to Stealth Rock, and is hurt even more by Spikes, a Rapid Spinner or Xatu is usually a great teammate to have. A powerful Fighting-type is again a great teammate, because of it's no apohstrophe ability to break through Pokemon that can take both of Chandelure's STABs well.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Chandelure has a very expansive movepool for a Fire-Type, and this does come with a few more moveset options. Calm Mind is Chandelure's best boosting option, and makes it's no apostrophe attacks even more powerful. The problem with this set is the fact that Chandelure is relatively slow and will usually get outsped and killed before getting too many boosts up. A support set is somewhat viable, consisting of moves like such as Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Pain Split, and other support moves. Usually though, Chandelure's offensive FIREpower is too good to pass up. As mentioned before, Flame Body is by no means a bad ability, and can be considered for basically every set. The biggest perk to Flame Body is the fact that it allows Chandelure to get past Porygon2, one of its biggest counters. The biggest downside to that ability, however, commas is the fact that Chandelure is usually too frail to use the ability effectively.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>As for all of the sets, there are very few counters to cChandelure largely due to its sheer offensive power. Snorlax, Porygon2 (bar scenarios where Chandelure runs Flame Body) and Houndoom are some of the very few Pokemon in the tier that resist or are immune to both of Chandelure's STABs, making them the only true counters in the tier. Pursuit users can be considered checks, because Chandelure is pretty frail, and obviously weak to said move. A Pursuit user can be very crippling, but Chandelure can usually kill most of the pursuit users in the tier. Again, Chandelure is crippled by hazards, so a Rapid Spinner or Xatu is almost always a necessary teammate. </p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Shadow Tag is Chandelure's amazing unreleased ability that is currently limited only to the a single evolutionary line that has an insanely shallow movepool and can't apostrophe use it very well. When the ability is released, Chandelure can basically kiss UU goodbye as it will most likely move up to OU or even Ubers.</p>



    C/P (open)

    [Overview]

    <p> The UU tier is home to a plethora of insanely powerful Fire-types. Most of them hit very hard from the physical side of the spectrum, putting dents in many teams with their Flare Blitzes or V-Creates. However, one Pokemon stands out for hitting just as hard specially. That Pokemon is Chandelure. Armed with the highest Special Attack of any non-legendary Pokemon, Chandelure can be a prominent threat in UU. Chandelure's powerful Fire-type attacks are by no means the only thing it has going for it, it's Ghost typing is incredibly useful as well. UU is littered with Fighting-types and is heavily focused on entry hazards, making Ghost a very important type. Chandelure has two great abilities to choose from, Flash Fire being the more commonly used, grants Chandelure immunity to the many powerful Fire-type moves in the tier. Flame Body should not be overlooked, however, as it allows Chandelure to get past one of its major walls, Porygon2.</p>

    <p>That being said, Chandelure doesn't come without its flaws, some of them are abundant. For starters, Chandelure has extremely inconvenient weaknesses to Water-, Ground-, Dark-, and Rock-type attacks. The latter two make for crippling weaknesses to Stealth Rock and Pursuit, two fairly common sights in UU. Not only that, but Chandelure is also quite frail, and has inconveniently below average speed. Having considered all of these flaws, Chandelure is still a very powerful threat in the current metagame, and should always be prepared for.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Fire Blast / Overheat
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Trick
    move 4: Energy Ball
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With base 140 Special Attack, boosted 50% by Choice Specs, Chandelure is easily one of the most powerful special attackers in the tier. Whenever it switches in, there is a very high possibility that something from the opposing team will faint. Choice Specs is chosen to further improve Chandelure's already massive Special Attack, making it very difficult to take on. Fire Blast is the standard attack because it prolongs the time in which Chandelure can break walls, rather than having to switch-out after one attack. Overheat is a good alternative, as it provides even more power, but the fact that if usually forces Chandelure to switch out after using one move usually outweighs the increase in power. Shadow Ball is another powerful STAB attack that can be used to break most of the things that resist Chandelure's more powerful STAB move, namely bulky waters (especially Slowbro).</p>

    <p>Hidden Power Fighting is a great option to fill the third moveslot, as it allows Chandelure to 2HKO most of the Pokemon that wall its first two moves, namely Trace Porygon2, Houndoom, and Snorlax with some prior damage. If that move doesn't suit your fancy, another alternative is Trick. Trick will target the same type of Pokemon, and cripple them for the rest of the match, rather than just put some damage on them. Energy Ball is a great coverage move to round off the set. It allows you to score a 2HKO on the likes of Suicune and Milotic, and allows you to hit Rhyperior incredibly hard as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread maximizes Chandelure's already huge Special Attack stat, and provide a decent amount of speed. While Chandelure is by no means fast, 252 Speed EVs are helpful to outspeed a few select threats. Modest is used to add even more power to Chandelure's attacks, basically eliminating foes that can take every hit from the set twice, with the exception of a few: Snorlax and Trace Porygon2, along with Houndoom if the set lacks HP Fighting. The 4 Special Defense EVs are put in place to give download users such as the Porygon family an Attack boost upon switching in. Flamethrower can be considered as the last move if you aren't particularly worried about bulky Water-type Pokemon, such as Milotic and Suicune, and it can be used in times when a Fire Blast miss would be deadly. However, the 2HKOs and coverage that Energy Ball provides will usually outweigh Flamethrower. As Chandelure is weak to Stealth Rock, and is hurt even more by Spikes, a Rapid Spinner or Xatu is usually a great partner to have on the team. A powerful Fighting-type attacker is also of great use, picking off bulky Normal-types hyphen that haunt Chandelure.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Pain Split / Energy Ball
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Due to the sheer power that Chandelure provides, it will force the opponent to switch out often. This provides a perfect opportunity to set up a Substitute. Substitutes do a great job of making up for Chandelure's frailty, and can allow it to turn into a deadly sweeper. Fire Blast is again the STAB of choice, providing more power than Flamethrower. Overheat does not work well for this set because most of the time, more than one attack will be used before switching out. Shadow Ball is very strong, reliable secondary STAB. It can hit many things extremely hard that can take a few Fire Blasts. Without the Choice Specs boost, Shadow ball loses a few of the 2HKOs and OHKOs it gets otherwise, but it is still a reliable STAB move.</p>

    <p>Energy Ball is a very nice coverage move to have in the last slot, to make up for some of the power that Chandelure loses from the Choice Specs set. Energy Ball gets some nice 2HKOs and OHKOs on bulky Water-types and other bulky Pokemon that are weak to Grass-type attacks. Pain Split is another great move for the last slot because Chandelure has a relatively low HP stat and it can prolong its life span while shortening the enemy's.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread again maxes out Chandelure's huge Special Attack, and provides enough Speed for it to function. Modest is used for even more power, as the speed boost Timid provides will only allow Chandelure to outspeed a few select Pokemon, none of which are extremely important for the Substitute set. The 4 Special Defense EVs are put in place to give a physical boost to the likes of download Porygon-Z and Porygon2 rather than a special one. Taunt is a decent option in the last slot, as it can stop Pokemon from healing off the damage Chandelure causes, or using a combination of Foresight and Rapid Spin to get rid of hazards. Will-O-Wisp can also work in the fourth slot to cripple physical attackers that will come in and attempt to break the Substitute Chandelure has set up. As for every set, a spinner, for example Blastoise, is a great teammate to have, as it keeps away the hazards that severely cripple Chandelure. Roserade is also a good teamate because it takes Water-type attacks that hurt Chandelure and lays down Spikes to help Chandelure sweep.</p>



    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Energy Ball
    move 4: Trick / Hidden Power Fighting
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Again, even without a Choice Specs boost, Chandelure can still hit very hard, with its base 140 Special Attack. Its relatively slow Speed cripples Chandelure the most, and equipping it with a Choice Scarf is the best remedy. It will turn Chandelure into a decently fast sweeper that can revenge kill many of the best Pokemon in the tier. Fire Blast is once again the STAB Fire-type move of choice, being as powerful as possible without a side effect. It is of course less accurate than Flamethrower, but the extra power is definitely needed, especially on this set. Like every other set, Shadow Ball is another very reliable STAB that can hit a lot of things hard that Fire Blast cannot.</p>

    <p>Energy Ball is a very effective coverage move, and can still hit a few bulky Water-types and Rhyperior harder than either of its STABs. Trick works better on the Choice Scarf set than it does on the Choice Specs set, because the extra Speed allows Chandelure to outspeed many more Pokemon and cripple them badly by locking them into a single move. Hidden Power Fighting is still an option of course, allowing Chandelure to break through the bulky Normal-types that would otherwise wall it, in addition Hidden Power Fighting allows Chandelure to beat Houndoom as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As usual, the EVs are to maximize Chandelure's Special Attack to the fullest, and the Speed boost to beat out as many threats as possible. The 4 Special Defense EVs are used to give Download users an Attack boost rather than a Special Attack boost upon switch-in. Modest is still the nature of choice for this set, because Chandelure really appreciates the extra power it gives, but Timid becomes much more viable on this set, because the Speed boost allows Chandelure to outspeed a few more important threats. These include Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross and Krookodile, and Lilligant after a boost, to name a few. As Chandelure is weak to Stealth Rock, and is hurt even more by Spikes, a Rapid Spinner or Xatu is usually a great teammate to have. A powerful Fighting-type is again a great teammate, because of its ability to break through Pokemon that can take both of Chandelure's STABs well.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Chandelure has a very expansive movepool for a Fire-Type, and this does come with a few more moveset options. Calm Mind is Chandelure's best boosting option, and makes its attacks even more powerful. The problem with this set is the fact that Chandelure is relatively slow and will usually get outsped and killed before getting too many boosts up. A support set is somewhat viable, consisting of moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Pain Split, and other support moves. Usually though, Chandelure's offensive FIREpower is too good to pass up. As mentioned before, Flame Body is by no means a bad ability, and can be considered for basically every set. The biggest perk to Flame Body is the fact that it allows Chandelure to get past Porygon2, one of its biggest counters. The biggest downside to that ability, however, is the fact that Chandelure is usually too frail to use the ability effectively.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>As for all of the sets, there are few counters to Chandelure largely due to its sheer offensive power. Snorlax, Porygon2 (bar scenarios where Chandelure runs Flame Body) and Houndoom are some of the few Pokemon in the tier that resist or are immune to both of Chandelure's STABs, making them the only true counters in the tier. Pursuit users can be considered checks, because Chandelure is pretty frail, and obviously weak to said move. A Pursuit user can be very crippling, but Chandelure can usually kill most of the pursuit users in the tier. Again, Chandelure is crippled by hazards, so a Rapid Spinner or Xatu is almost always a necessary teammate. </p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Shadow Tag is Chandelure's amazing unreleased ability that is currently limited only to the a single evolutionary line that has an insanely shallow movepool and can't use it very well. When the ability is released, Chandelure can basically kiss UU goodbye as it will most likely move up to OU or even Ubers.</p>





    Some stuf' I saw.

    - 'its' is the possessive, which I know is odd because most possessives have the apostrophe.
    - it's is the contraction of it is.
    - "like" is to make a comparison, not to list stuff. "such as" is a good example of how to start a list of stuff.
    - In written analyses don't abbreviate stats, instead, write them out. Special Attack, Special Defense, etc.

    Much better write up this time around! ^_^;
  6. Ningildo

    Ningildo

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    759
    Just a tiny nitpick.
    Chandy has base 145 Special Attack, not base 140.
  7. TSTEF

    TSTEF

    Joined:
    May 17, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Changes made, thanks for another check Yonko.

    And i changed the Special Attack base stat to 145. Good catch, Ningildo.
  8. sirndpt

    sirndpt
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,124
    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  9. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
  10. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
    Ace Emerald is taking over. QC should weigh in on changes before re-doing GP.

    For one, I think SubSplit should be listed first, followed by Specs and then Scarf. I also think Flame Body deserves an even stronger emphasis that it currently has (I'd honestly use it 100% of the time on SubSplit at the moment.

    We might also want to consider separating the current Sub set into a couple others, because SubSplit and Sub + 3 attacks play a little differently. Not to mention there's also SubWisp (which is pretty cool js).

    Anyway QC opinions please.
  11. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Visual Media Head

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,038
    Alright, opened for QC checks again. Sets rearranged, Flame Body given more emphasis in the Overview, slashed it on all sets, put it first on the Sub set. I'll wait for a little more QC input to see how many Sub sets to have, and what to add to AC or OO.
  12. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Staff Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,408
    I'd be fine with two Substitute sets. (Sub Split and Sub + 3 Attacks) I've never seen Will-O-Wisp used on Chandelure but I'm not opposed to it getting a slash or AC on one of the substitute sets. Having three just seems a bit much tbh.
  13. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
    I think Wisp can be slashed on the Sub 3 attacks set with Energy Ball, since Wisp shit on Pert and Perior and the relevant bulky Waters (Slowking / bro) are hit harder by Shadow Ball anyway. You'd obviously miss out on Milotic and Suicune but those are pretty bad at the moment (except Offensive Cune which you're still hurting a bit with Shadow Ball so...).
  14. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Visual Media Head

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,038
    I've got a skeleton for a Sub 3 attacks, but it's a little thin because a lot of the information seems redundant with Sub Split sitting right above it. I can repeat info if needed, or if anyone has new info to add I'll gladly add it.
  15. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
    Set order:

    SubSplit
    Specs
    Scarf
    Sub + 3 Attacks <- gonna need a new name if we keep WoW slashed.

    Also it's okay to repeat information about what the moves / items / EVs + nature / abilities do.

    Also, while we're at it... any point in maxing Speed for non-Scarf sets? I never do on Specs... I just hit ~230 for 8 Spe defensive Arcanine or w/e. Although I suppose if you're running Sub you'll want 242 minimum so you can Sub on Krow safely.
  16. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Visual Media Head

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,038
    Changed it to just Substitue, for now anyways. Fleshed out the skeleton a little. Specs hits 230, both Subs hit 242.
  17. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,696
    Yeah, Chandelure is at a really awkward Speed tier so it doesn't hurt to not run max Speed on it. Getting outsped by opposing Chandelure is annoying, though.

    I think the c&c section could use more meat in it; Chandelure is an extremely prominent and powerful Pokemon in the current UU metagame, after all. You don't mention the fact that it is easily outspeed and OHKO'd by many common offensive threats. Milotic can Recover off damage and can switch into most of Chandelure's attacks besides Choice Specs Energy Ball, although it isn't that relevant in today's metagame. Suicune should also be mentioned since it is faster than Chandelure and can tank its attacks well. There's not many specific things you can mention as Chandelure is really hard to counter, but there are various checks. You might also want to talk a little bit more about what Pursuit users are best at combating Chandelure. You could also talk about what Pokemon can beat a certain Chandelure set but not the other (like, Choice Scarf is much easier to take a hit from then, say, Choice Specs).
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,707
    2 things i noticed about the Sub set (the last one). First, is it really ok to slash LO there? Sub + LO + SR weak without Pain Split is too much to handle imo, so Lefties seems to be the only viable option.

    Also you mention that because this set has Sub, Flame Body is the better ability, implying that you can abuse the ability by subing, fishing for burns. This is a common misconception, however when behind a Sub Flame Body does not activate, because the opponent is hitting the Sub not the poke, which doesn't have the ability. For the same reason when the attacker is behind a Sub and attacks with a contact move a Flame Body poke it can still be burned, because the actual poke does the attack and not the sub, so you don't have the status protection at the time of attacking.
  19. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Staff Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,408
    Your EVs need tweaking. Sub Split should have 68 Hp / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 184 Spe. Despite having Pain Split, I'd rather invest the excess in HP because it improves Chandelure's overall bulk which can actually matter in some situations. For example, it gives you a chance to retain your sub against defensive P2's Discharge, (it has around 50% chance to break with 68 EVs, but breaks 100% of the time without HP EVs), and guarantees Scarf Heracross doesn't OHKO you with Stone Edge at 100%. Pain Split will still drain a lot of HP considering your main target is Snorlax.

    Specs needs 112 Hp / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 140 Spe. Hidden Power Fighting lowers your Speed IV, so it requires an extra 4 EVs.

    You still have Energy Ball on SubSplit, get rid of it. I think the main thing we have yet to settle is the what the primary choice of ability should be on all the sets. Personally, I think it should be like this:

    SubSplit: Flame Body (I think we can all agree on that)
    Specs: Flame Body
    Scarf: Flash Fire
    Substitute: Flame Body

    Scarf is the only set I think should have Flash Fire because it can actually switch in on the likes of Darmanitan and Arcanine Flare Blitz and not be outsped and OHKOed the next turn. The other sets benefit more from Flame Body, but I'd like for the rest of QC to weigh in as well.
  20. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
    Specs might want Flash Fire too, since it not only can 2HKO P2 with HP Fighting anyway, but it certainly appreciates the free switch-ins on Choiced Fire-types.

    Also hitting 230 Speed on slow Chand is actually Speed Creep... so you'd ideally lower it to 228 where you're hitting a solid benchmark OR try to find a slightly higher benchmark (although I think 242 is the next one) to make sure you always beat defensive Xatu / Arcanine (who sit at 227 when they run 0 Speed). Alternatively, you could just put 228 and explain in AC that the Speed is meant to beat these two--who are liable to run some Speed as well--so you'll probably want a little more for safety.

    Anyway, what alexwolf said is right. I think I might have confised you in my earlier post, but what I meant when I said "SubSplit definitely wants Flame Body" is that it lets it beat P2 reliably, not that you'd be fishing for burns. Fishing for burns with Subs was a PO glitch.

    Finally, the other Sub set should only have Leftovers, while the SubSplit set should have Life Orb (and maybe Leftovers slashed after it). SubSplit should only have 4 moves btw, no slashes, as such: Shadow Ball + Fire Blast + Sub + Split.

    I think that's it.

    Make these changes + the ones RT outlined above, then edit the text accordingly, and I'll be ready to let this go into GP again.
  21. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,447
    Yeah on Specs I would just slash Flame Body and Flash Fire because you're using HP Fighting so hitting Porygon2 with Fire Blast isn't that necessary, and Chandelure appreciates being able to switch on Fire attacks...

    Also 0 Spe Xatu / Arcanine sit at 226 Speed, idk if the analyses include 4 speed evs or something, js
  22. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,153
    So i talked to Kokoloko about Chandelure, and we decided to make flame body the primary slash on the choice specs set. Our reasoning? Flame Body is more useful on the Choice Specs set, and that is largely due to Porygon 2. I laddered with both abilities, and Flame Body was significantly more useful. I didn't have many opportunities to switch into fire-type moves in a given match. The majority of the fire-types in UU have a coverage move to damage Chandelure, so Flash Fire is really only relevant against choiced Fire-types. Hnd honestly, Chandelure isn't a Pokemon i'd switch into another Pokemon, it's too valuable. I felt like i had to go out of my way to make good use out of flash fire.

    Relying on HP fighting as a substitute for Fire Blast to 2HKO is P2 isn't acceptable; good players aren't going to sacrifice their P2 to Chandelure, and they're likely to switch out. It's much harder to play around Fire Blast and easy to abuse HP fighting. A high volume of players rely on P2 to check Specs Chandelure actually, and 2HKOing it with Fire Blast is ridiculously easy.

    So to sum it up, make Flame Body the primary ability on the Specs set.
  23. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,412
    As long as they are both options, I think that's a reasonable decision. As a Specs user, having another immunity to come in on is always helpful.

    Why do SubSplit and Sub + Attacks have to be different sets? Even the description says they play similarly and they have the same EV spread.

    this is nitpicky but shadow tag isn't limited to a single evolutionary line anymore!!!
  24. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,507
    Because they don't play that similarly. It's not like having more than one Substitute set is unheard of.

    EDIT: Also, I just noticed this. Flash Fire and Flame Body should both be slashed on every set. What we were discussing in the posts above was which ability would be the primary slash. You also need to expand the skeleton of the Substitute set to include everything you're gonna write in it--including move choices and all that good stuff.

    Actually, since those are Chandelure's only two released abilities, you don't need an ability line in the analysis. You'll just have to give some good explanation in AC about which ability is preferable on each set and why (but keeping in mind both are "ok" in all sets). Once all this is done, I'll approve this.

    Oh and yeah, Specs should be hitting 227 Speed, not 228. My Bad.
  25. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Staff Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,408
    Just to be clear, in my post I was outlining what ability should be slashed first, but both abilities should be slashed on all of the sets. I don't think we should slash leftovers on the subsplit set. Its redundant since you have pain split to recover your health, and you miss out on a lot of 2HKO's by dropping life orb.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)