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Chandelure (Sunny Day)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by BTzz, Mar 4, 2012.

  1. BTzz

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    [SET]
    name: Sunny Day
    move 1: Sunny Day
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: SolarBeam / Shadow Ball
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Flash Fire
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Through the use of Sunny Day, Chandelure can get past some of its usual checks and counters, such as Politoed and Tyranitar, while providing a sun team with a valuable backup sun inducer or a weatherless team with a way to combat opposing weather. Fire Blast is Chandelure's main weapon, hitting incredibly hard with boosts from Life Orb and sunlight. This variant is also notable for performing better against bulky Water-types than most of the standard Chandelure sets due to a strong SolarBeam and weaker Scalds. Shadow Ball is an option over SolarBeam to hit Latios and Latias, both of which otherwise wall this set when sun isn't in play. The last slot belongs to a Hidden Power; Hidden Power Ground can be used to reliably hit Fire-types that resist SolarBeam and Fire Blast, but barring Fire Blast's accuracy, it is only really useful for Heatran, as a sun-boosted Fire Blast can still KO most of the Fire-types in OU. Hidden Power Fighting can be used to hit Heatran as well, and it's also a reliable option for hitting Tyranitar on the switch. Chandelure can run both SolarBeam and Shadow Ball, but should only do so if your team has reliable means of removing or exploiting the opponent's Heatran, such as Dugtrio or Terrakion.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Timid is the recommended nature as it allows Chandelure to outspeed Timid Politoed and Adamant Dragonite. However, Modest can be used if more power in general is desired or if your team doesn't fear Dragonite and Politoed. Life Orb is the main item option as with it, Chandelure can OHKO 252/76+ Tyranitar with a Modest Hidden Power Fighting when sand isn't up. Leftovers is an option for durability, and it helps compensate for Chandelure's Stealth Rock weakness. Although Fire Blast can OHKO certain variants of Dragonite and Salamence after Stealth Rock, it's inaccurate, so Hidden Power Ice can be used to reliably hit them. However, Hidden Power Ice should only be used against Salamence and Dragonite, as a sun-boosted Fire Blast will hit Latios, Latias, and Haxorus harder. Pain Split can be used to recover off Life Orb and Stealth Rock damage from common switch-ins such as Blissey, but this leaves Chandelure easily walled. Memento and Heat Rock give Chandelure a more supportive role as they can be used to aid a sun sweeper's setup or to provide a sun sweeper with a large enough window to sweep. Memento can also be useful in situations where you know Chandelure is going to die to Stealth Rock. Expert Belt can be used for a balance between power and durability; it also allows Chandelure to bluff a Choice item. Colbur Berry eases prediction against Pursuit trappers such as Tyranitar and Snorlax. Air Balloon grants Chandelure a third immunity, meaning it has more switch-in opportunities, but Chandelure will severely miss the power from Life Orb or the recovery from Leftovers.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin support gives Chandelure more chances to switch in. Forretress is a good choice for a spinner as it can also provide hazards, which can net Chandelure more KOs. Forretress also serves as bait for Flash Fire boosts. Ninetales can be used as a partner so Chandelure can hit Water-types with SolarBeam right away. Because it's weak to Stealth Rock, Chandelure loathes residual damage from sand or hail, which Ninetales eliminates upon entry as opposed to having Chandelure remove it itself. Since Chandelure could get rapidly worn down by Stealth Rock, Life Orb, and any other possible residual damage, Chansey could be used as a Wish passer, as it appreciates Chandelure removing sand and hail. Chandelure can also switch into Fighting-type attacks aimed at Chansey. Finally, due to Chandelure's mediocre Speed, paralysis support can be used to aid a sweep. Chansey is a good candidate for spreading paralysis for reasons mentioned above.</p>
  2. Harsha

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    The SolarBeam calcs are pretty impressive, I have to say. The only thing I can see holding this back is the weakness to Pursuit, which can spell doom. But yeah, I think this is a pretty cool set, similar to Heatran's Sunny Day set.
  3. alexwolf

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    Good set! Chandelure has destructive power under Sun, and unlike Heatran it can actually OHKO Politoed and Ttar with SolarBeam. It also has room for HP Ground to deal with Heatran so pretty much every poke that commonly handles Chandelure except Hydreigon is wrecked by this set (Heatran, Ttar, Politoed).

    Maybe mention Pain Split over HP Ground in the AC, to have some form of recovery since Chandelure forces a ton of switches?
  4. Pearl.

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    Under Sun, assuming Multiscale was already broken by Stealth Rock and Modest and Life Orb are being used, this Chandelure does 70.1% - 82.4% to 4/0 Dragonite, which means it'll probably score an OHKO on Salamence with Stealth Rock, so I'd remove Hidden Power Ice's mention and replace it for something about Stealth Rock's importance on this set to break stuff such as the previously mentioned Dragon-types. I'd probably give Pain Split and Will-O-Wisp a mention on the last slot for their utility, though the later's most important targets already take a lot of damage from Fire Blast. Overall, this is a pretty interesting set. Props for coming up with it.
  5. col49

    col49 unpolished
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    cool set, i've tinkered around with it a fair amount myself, if only for the reason that everyone switches ttar into him without any second thoughts. however, i'd really recommend running modest as the main slash. that guarantees that solarbeam ohkoes 252 hp toed (105.73-124.48%) and gives him a chance at ohkoing specially defensive ttar after sr (75.74-89.11%). also, i'd toss a mention of memento, which is generally a solid option in offensive suns team to let a poke set up.
  6. blunder

    blunder

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    I like this set a lot and it seems like the sunny day Heatran one. The only problem I see here is after you set up Sunny Day, solar beam is obvious and Tyranitar can switch in and kill you with either of it's STAB moves. You might want to write how this is different than Sunny Day Heatran who has better bulk and coverage and only a little bit less special attack
  7. Harsha

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    No, you don't seem to understand the point. You use Sunny Day on a predicted switch to PREVENT them from making you charge up.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    You won't get a chance to OHKO Salamece with Fire Blast since he is going to be faster, and when he switched in, you used Sunny Day right?

    But against Dragonite you speed tie at worst since the faster Dragonite is max Speed Adamant.
  9. Pearl.

    Pearl.

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    I'm talking about a situation where the opponent brings Salamence against Chandelure, because lets face it: There are situation where the opponent's best answer to this is sending Salamence in and hoping for the best. This Chandelure should be either used with Ninetales or without weather, so in the best case scenario, Sun will already be up. But yeah, I'll give you the point either way because CBA in arguing about it.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Yeah i got what you meant. I just mentioned that Chandelure as a standalone poke, will never be in a position to OHKO Mence with Fire Blast because he either has to use Sunny Day or Fire Blast when Mence comes in and switch out afterward.

    But if you have Tales in the team then Mence simply dies :D
  11. Pocket

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    Excellent choice, Brizznetz. As a set setting up Sunny Day, being walled by Heatran is NOT a good thing. Slash Shadow Ball with SolarBeam and HP Fighting with HP Ground. This way Chandelure still has the means to damage Tyranitar with HP Fighting even if one opts for Shadow Ball. HP Fighting lets you 2HKO TTar on the switch (even with the sand boost) and hits harder than Solarbeam when you eliminate Sand, so its actually better than Solarbeam when dealing with TTar. You lose out on quickly dispatching Politoed with Solarbeam, but Chandelure 2HKOs them with SR & LO Shadow Ball anyways, so Chandelure can still change the weather on the 2nd switch. HP Fighting does hefty damage to Heatran switching in, Air Balloon or no Air Balloon, so it's a decent choice.

    So the set would look like this:

    name: Sunny Day
    move 1: Sunny Day
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: SolarBeam / Shadow Ball
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe


    You could AC mention instead that Chandelure can run both SolarBeam and Shadow Ball only if the team has reliable means of removing or exploiting opponent's Heatran, such as Dugtrio or Terrakion.

    The AC mention you have is also great. I would add Air Balloon and Power Herb as other alternative items. Air Balloon provides protection and more switch-in opportunities from the likes of Mamoswine, Donphan, Hippowdon, Heatran, Dugtrio, and Gliscor, whereas Power Herb ensures that the SolarBeam need not to recharge regardless of the weather, making it slightly less error prone. Although if Power Herb is consumed even when firing SolarBeams in Sunny conditions, it may not be worth the mention.

    AC mention that Chandelure could run more Spe EVs to be a solid check to Adamant Lucario. 236 Spe EVs are required. Do note that Chandelure is surprisingly bulky, and the extra HP EVs does allow it to survive some hits.

    EDIT: I would remove the AC mention of Flamethrower, since the last spot is much too important for doubling up on Fire moves, imo.
  12. BTzz

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    Thanks for all the feeback guys!

    @ alexwolf: I'll give Pain Spit a mention, thanks!

    @ Pearl.: I'm not really seeing much use for Will-O-Wisp on this set when Chandy can KO most targets (Chandelure can't really doing any stalling without reliable recovery / bulk investment). I'll leave it out for now. Good point about HP Ice though. I'll keep the HP Ice bit and say that it's a more reliable way of killing dragons, as opposed to setting up sun with tales or chandy, and hitting them with the non 100% accurate Fire Blast

    @ col49: Idk about Modest being the main nature, outrunning Timid Politoed is pretty important as it can OHKO Chandelure. I'll keep the nature order the same for now and stress hazard support to net more KOs. Memento sounds good to give Chandelure a more supportive role, mentioned
  13. alexwolf

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    If you want this to outspeed and OHKO Heatran you should run 232 Spe evs with a Timid nature. Imo it is worth it, since without those evs, offensive Heatran outspeeds and OHKOes with Earth Power, and gets to abuse your own sunlight.
    If you think that outspeeding Timid Heatran is worth it then add 4 more Spe evs, to make them 236 and reach 280 Spe, because as Pocket mentioned, with those evs you are able to check Adamant Lucario, a very big offensive threat.

    Also you may want to add calcs about Lefties Chandelure, to justify its use.
    Here are some important calcs, that show that Lefties is a viable item that still lets you 2hko what you want, while allowing you to stick around longer:


    • HP Fighting vs Mixed Ttar: 41.58 - 49.5%, almost sure 2hko after SR
    • HP Fighting vs ScarfTar: 65.49 - 77.19%, leaves Ttar severely crippled and it is possible that he won't be able to summon weather again if SR is up.

    • Solarbeam vs Scarf/Specs Politoed: 87.85 - 104.04%, sure OHKO after SR, while Modest ScarfToed almost never OHKOes after SR and Lefties dealing 69.92 - 81.95% with Hydro Pump (btw i am only using 20 HP evs, since i believe that 236 Spe evs is the way to go. However if we go with your spread then you are guaranteed to survive the Hydro Pump after SR and Lefties)
    • Solarbeam vs Max HP Politoed: 73.43 - 86.97%, while he never OHKOes back with Hydro Pump or Scald. The only way to OHKO you would be to carry LO and max HP, but even then he would die from SR if he wanted to come in again

    Anyway, as you even with Lefties you still get most 2hkoes and ohkoes that you want in addition to being able to ohko ScarfToed while surviving the Hydro Pump, which LO Chandelure cannot do, BUT you miss out on the OHKO on ScarfTar with HP Fighting and SR and on the 2hko on Specially Defensive Ttar, so you may want to mention that.
  14. Bruno Magno

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    I would put HP Fighting over HP Ground for two reasons:
    1. 100% 2HKO on 252/0 Tyranitar regardless of hazards
    2. Standard Heatran (4/0, Air Balloon) takes 64% - 75%
    The only things HP Ground hits and HP Fighting doesn't are Steel - Psychic, but Fire Blast is super-effective on all of them. HP Fighting means 30 Spe IV, but it isn't remarkable

    EDIT: Ninja'd
  15. BTzz

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    Ok, I made Pocket's changes and added alexwolf's calcs, thanks!
  16. Pearl.

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    i'd probably mention pain split as a recovery move in order to "bypass" the residual damage from sr and sandstorm / hail (since you'll be using this to help checking those weathers along with rain which causes no damage) and a 252 satk / 252 spe ev spread in ac with a modest nature in order to speed tie with the standard dd dragonite which might be helpful because of what i mentioned before in this thread. and yeah, you're right about will-o-wisp. it still might be ac worthy though, idk
  17. col49

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    well i dunno, maybe i've been playing the wrong people, but i never see timid poli's bar scarf variants, which needless to say outspeed anyway. but i suppose whatever is found fit.
  18. Pocket

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    Not a huge fan of Memento (not Momento :x), since Chandelure can just nuke stuff until it dies. Stuff that can take its hits are special walls that usually don't mind taking a Memento imo. However, I guess it could work if Chandelure is lacking the LO boost. In that case, I would mention Heat Rock to provide 8 turns of sunshine.

    You also forgot to mention this:
    Power Herb, NOT White Herb.

    Good stuff,

    QC Approved (1/3)
  19. BTzz

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    Fixed

    I haven't tested it on the set yet, but I would imagine Memento being useful for crippling Tyranitar / Heatran for an incoming sweeper (possibly a sun abuser), when Chandelure is going to die to SR.

    Thanks for the approval :)
  20. alexwolf

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    BTzz what about the Spe evs that me and Pocket suggested? Outspeeding and 2HKOing or OHKOing Heatran is a godsend for sun teams, and the additional bonus of outspeeding Adamant Lucario, a huge threat, is never bad...
  21. BTzz

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    I had 236 Speed in AC, but I'm going to make it the main one for now since outspeeding Lucario and Heatran can come in handy. I will however do some calcs to see whether the extra HP matters.
  22. PK Gaming

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    No problems here, Sunny Day sets are always cool.

    Though, i'm afraid i'm going to have to double back on some of the items Pocket suggested for AC. Power Herb is a terrible item on this set, and will almost never see use since its completely inferior to every other item listed; its strictly OO material. Expert Belt is unnecessary since more often than nought, this Chandelure will be using Solarbeam as its first move, so there isn't any point to bluffing. I don't think it guarantee's any specific KOs either, but i'll have to look into that further.

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  23. Pocket

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    Power Herb could save Chandelure if it ever happens to mispredict and SolarBeam as Politoed / TTar switches in, or if Chandelure wants to finish off a weakened Politoed / TTar without setting up Sun. However, I do agree that its utility is rather limited in comparison to the other alternative item choices, so I support Luffy's change.
  24. BTzz

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    removed Power Herb, thanks Luffy!
  25. AccidentalGreed

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    Played with this for a little while, and the experience was fine, despite the Stealth Rock and Dark-type weaknesses (I played this with Heatran in mind). I'm just wondering why Chandelure isn't using the standard 252 SpA / 252 Spe though. The bulk provided by 20 HP EVs is minimal, and with max Speed, Chandelure can outspeed a few weird threats (such as opposing Chandelure, Dragonite, Medicham, and, perhaps most importantly of all, Mamoswine). Tying at worst with the aforementioned threats would be more universally favorable.

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