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Chandelure

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Ubiquitous, Dec 27, 2013.

  1. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    [​IMG]
    y u no give me shadow tag trollfreak

    (QC 3/3): Super Mario Bro, alexwolf, Jukain
    (GP 2/2): Legitimate Username, Kingler12345


    Overview
    ########

    Chandelure was built for instant offense. With a monstrous base 145 Special Attack backed up by superb offensive STABs in Fire and Ghost, alongside good abilities in Flash Fire and Infiltrator, it is not lacking in damage dealing potential. However, if you look past that glossy exterior you'll find a Pokemon with flaws that saw it relegated to UU last generation - mediocre base Speed, vulnerability to all forms of entry hazards, and poor defensive typing. But whilst Chandelure has not changed much in the transition to Generation VI, the metagame has, and it is much kinder to Chandelure. The buff to Defog makes keeping hazards off the field much easier than before, its Ghost STAB is easier to spam than ever, and it has a new potential teammate in Mega Charizard Y to bring its beloved sun to the party. So if you're looking for something that can provide offensive presence right from the word go, look no further than Chandelure.

    Choice Scarf
    ########
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Shadow Ball
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Energy Ball
    move 4: Trick / Memento
    ability: Flash Fire / Infiltrator
    item: Choice Scarf
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    One of Chandelure's biggest weaknesses has always been its subpar Speed, so a Choice Scarf is a great item for it, turning it into a decent revenge killer. Shadow Ball and Fire Blast are Chandelure's mandatory STAB attacks; the former is easier to spam as there are few Pokemon that resist it in OU, but the latter is much more powerful, especially with a boost from sun or Flash Fire. Energy Ball allows it to hit bulky Water-types for super effective damage on the switch as they may try switching into Fire Blast. The final slot is reserved for a utility move - Trick is always great on a Choiced Pokemon to cripple defensive switch-ins, but Memento is an equally useful option (when Chandelure is no longer needed) to give your setup sweepers a little breathing space to boost and go for the win.

    There is a bit of room for customization on this set. A Hidden Power of choice can be used to deal with specific threats and can go in the third or fourth moveslot. Hidden Power Ground hits defensive Heatran, Hidden Power Fighting gives Chandelure a weapon against Tyranitar, Hidden Power Ice helps Chandelure revenge kill 4x Ice-weak Dragons, and Hidden Power Rock decimates Mega Charizard Y. Pick the option that best covers your team's weaknesses.


    Set Details
    ========

    Choice Scarf Chandelure should always run maximum Speed and Special Attack with a Timid Nature. With this investment it can outspeed most unboosted Pokemon in OU, as well as the rather dangerous +1 Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados. Flash Fire and Infiltrator are both usable abilities; the former makes switching Chandelure in a little easier and can give it a much needed power boost. On the other hand, Infiltrator gives Chandelure the somewhat rare ability to revenge kill foes that are behind a Substitute, which can potentially stop a threat from sweeping or punching huge holes in your team. However, it is incompatible with Trick.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    One of the main selling points of Choice Scarf Chandelure is its naturally high Special Attack which means that it can hit hard without a boosting item. This gives it greater revenge killing potential and lets it clean up a weakened team more easily with one of its excellent offensive STAB moves. With good prediction, it can be used as an offensive spinblocker in a pinch, switching into Rapid Spin and threatening the opposing spinner with its powerful moves. It should also be noted that Choice Scarf Chandelure with Flash Fire is a decent check to Mega Charizard Y, a prominent threat in the metagame. It's immune to Fire Blast and Focus Blast, resists SolarBeam and does not take much damage from any other move except for Earthquake, which still fails to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Meanwhile, Shadow Ball 2HKOes with a only a small amount of prior damage.

    Team Options
    ========

    Rapid Spin or Defog support is a must, as Chandelure's inability to switch moves means that it will be switching out often, and it will die very quickly should hazards be on the field. Mega Blastoise, Excadrill, and Starmie are all good options, the former softening up many of Chandelure's checks whilst the latter baiting Fire-type attacks for it to switch into and receive a free boost. A teammate that can deal with Chandelure's nemesis, Tyranitar, is also helpful, as Chandelure cannot leave a scratch on it without Hidden Power Fighting and even that can't touch defensive variants. Finally, Charizard-Y can be a good offensive partner, as it can form a good offensive core with Chandelure by firing off sun-boosted Fire Blasts, in addition to heavily damaging each other's checks and counters, including Tyranitar and Latios. However, they share common weaknesses, including Rock-type attacks, Stealth Rock, and an inability to get past Chansey and Blissey.

    SubSplit
    ########
    name: SubSplit
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Pain Split
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Fire Blast
    ability: Flash Fire
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest / Timid

    Moves
    ========

    Substitute is a neat tool for Chandelure, as it blocks status moves and the dangerous Pursuit, easing the need for prediction.The final piece of the puzzle is Pain Split, which gives Chandelure a method of wearing down its checks whilst simultaneously healing the passive damage caused by its use of Substitute and Life Orb.

    Alternative options on this set are Flamethrower and Hidden Power Fighting. Flamethrower can be used over Fire Blast for its superior PP and accuracy; however, the significant decrease in power means missing out on certain important KOs such as on Gliscor and Naive Landorus-T. Hidden Power Fighting provides perfect neutral coverage with Shadow Ball and 2HKOes offensive variants of Tyranitar, but it is relatively weak otherwise.

    Set Details
    ========

    A Modest nature with maximum investment in Special Attack and Speed is the only spread this set should run, as well as a Life Orb for maximum power. Timid is an option, but Chandelure doesn't outspeed anything notable with it bar the odd Adamant Mamoswine. Speed investment ensures that defensive foes switching in on an attack can't hit Chandelure with a status move before it can use Substitute to block it. If you want Chandelure to be a little harder to kill, Leftovers provides passive recovery and means that it isn't completely reliant on Pain Split to stay healthy. However, Life Orb's power boost is generally superior.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Chandelure threatens quite a few notable defensive Pokemon, most of them being Steel-types such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory. If you can switch in on them, you can grab a free Substitute as they switch out and hit whatever comes in with the move of your choice, be it a direct attack or Pain Split. Even better things to switch in on are Fire-type attacks, which will give Chandelure a Flash Fire boost and increase its destructive capacity.

    SubSplit is also good at putting faster, normally solid checks to Chandelure in a difficult position. Terrakion in sand is a prime example; normally it would switch into Fire Blast and take little damage whilst threatening to it OHKO with a Rock-type move, but after switching into Substitute it risks being stripped of 50% of its health by Shadow Ball. This means that the next time Chandelure comes in, Terrakion cannot check it effectively, giving your opponent fewer options.

    Whilst this Chandelure is less vulnerable to hazards thanks to Pain Split, its average defenses mean that switching into even a neutral attack with hazards up can seal Chandelure's fate. Be wary of this, and try to only switch Chandelure into attacks that it is resistant or immune to.


    Team Options
    ========

    Because this Chandelure has a means of recovery in Pain Split, Rapid Spin and Defog support are less necessary to it than they are to the Choice sets, but they are still greatly appreciated. Excadrill and Scizor can all remove hazards and bait Fire-type attacks for Chandelure to switch into. Teammates that can set entry hazards are also important in order to help Chandelure turn a few 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into OHKOs. Ferrothorn is a good choice for its defensive synergy; it resists Chandelure's weaknesses to Water- and Rock-type moves, and also baits Fire-type attacks. Finally, special attackers with similar checks pair well with Chandelure, as it can wear them down to ease a potential sweep.


    Choice Specs
    ########
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Energy Ball
    move 4: Trick / Hidden Power Ground
    ability: Flash Fire / Infiltrator
    item: Choice Specs
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest / Timid

    Moves
    ========

    Choice Specs turns Chandelure's high-powered Fire-type STAB moves into truly monstrous attacks, taking huge chunks even out of foes that resist them, especially with a boost from Flash Fire or sun. Out of Fire Blast and Overheat, Fire Blast is less powerful and accurate but it does not have the horrible Special Attack-dropping side-effect of Overheat, so it is generally the better option. Shadow Ball is a great backup STAB move, and given the limited number of Ghost-resistant Pokemon in OU, it is very easy to spam.
    Energy Ball rounds out Chandelure's coverage, hitting bulky Water-types for good damage including non-specially defensive Rotom-W, who is OHKOed, while also dealing acceptable damage to Tyranitar. Finally, Trick cripples troublesome walls such as Blissey and Heatran on the switch.

    If you want to eliminate particular threats, a Hidden Power of choice can be used over Trick or Energy Ball. Hidden Power Ground is listed as it obliterates specially defensive Heatran, one of Chandelure's best switch-ins. Hidden Power Fighting is a good option for dealing with Tyranitar, as it 2HKOes most sets bar rare Assault Vest variants. Finally, if you really hate untimely misses, Flamethrower can be used as Chandelure's Fire-type STAB move, but the drop in power is very noticeable.


    Set Details
    ========

    A Modest Nature and maximum Special Attack investment maximizes the benefits of using Choice Specs. Maximum Speed investment allows Chandelure to tie with Adamant Mamoswine and outspeed everything below. Timid is an option for outspeeding neutral base 80s but the power drop is significant. Flash Fire is the preferred ability, as it provides you with more opportunities to switch Chandelure in, but Infiltrator lets Chandelure blast through slower Substitute users if you don't mind its incompatibility with Trick.


    Usage Tips
    ========

    Chandelure can switch in on many popular defensive Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory and immediately threaten them out. From there, it can punch holes in the opponent's team by predicting the switch-in and hitting it with the appropriate move. If you can get Chandelure into the action whilst the sun is up or if you can nab a Flash Fire boost, Chandelure's Fire Blast becomes incredibly hard to switch into. Aim to have Chandelure out under these conditions whenever possible.


    Team Options
    ========

    This Chandelure does need quite a bit of support. Hazard removal is a must as Chandelure is vulnerable to all of them. The usual choices of Excadrill and Scizor are good options with their ability to bait Fire-type attacks. Starmie is also a good option, as Chandelure can take chunks out of specially defensive foes, which might allow Starmie to clean up late-game. Entry hazards of your own can help Chandelure break through opponents it might have struggled with otherwise, so packing a hazard setter is important. Finally, special attackers that struggle with defensive foes can benefit from Chandelure's ability to blast off large amounts of their health. For example, Latios and Latias both enjoy the demise of their arch enemy Tyranitar.


    Other Options
    ########

    Chandelure has a few other avenues to explore if you're feeling adventurous. A Calm Mind set can raise Chandelure's already huge Special Attack to even greater heights, but is difficult to set up due to Chandelure's poor defensive typing. Will-O-Wisp can trouble some of Chandelure's switch-ins, but it will generally be more effective on the offensive during its time on the field.

    Chandelure has a couple of options to remedy its mediocre Speed aside from Choice Scarf. The first is Flame Charge, which is itself unbelievably weak but can still be used to pick off a severely weakened enemy while boosting Chandelure's Speed in order to potentially set up a sweep. The second is Trick Room, which provides four turns in which Chandelure can outspeed foes that are normally faster. This is decent against offensive teams, but generally Chandelure does not possess the bulk to effectively pull this off.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Tyranitar**: All variants of Tyranitar pose a huge threat to Chandelure. It resists both of Chandelure's STABs, can obliterate it with Crunch or Rock Slide and has Pursuit to put it in a no-win situation. Offensive variants fear Hidden Power Fighting, but specially defensive and Assault Vest variants can stomach one hit and KO back.

    **Faster Attackers**: Chandelure's subpar Speed and mediocre defenses mean that fast, powerful offensive threats can switch into a resisted attack and threaten to KO. Good examples include Terrakion and Keldeo, which can both take a Fire Blast on the switch, outspeed Chandelure and obliterate it with Stone Edge and Hydro Pump or Surf, respectively.

    **Super Effective Priority**: Chandelure packs useful immunities and resistances to common priority moves like Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, and Ice Shard, but this also comes with weaknesses to Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch. Common users of these moves such as Azumarill, Mega Mawile, and Bisharp, as well as Talonflame's Brave Bird, are all capable of dealing massive damage to Chandelure.

    **Blissey and Chansey**: Chansey and Blissey can withstand any attacking move that the Choice sets can throw at them and threaten Chandelure with paralysis or use the free turns to heal its team. However, they are relatively shaky counters, as Chandelure still has ways of annoying them, such as Trick on the Choice sets or Pain Split on the Substitute set.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2014
  2. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    Bumping for QC...
  3. Tainic

    Tainic

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    No Trick on the Choice Sets ? It's an amazing tool when it comes to cripple Blissey/Chansey/Water Types. (And Azumarill on the switch, lolSpecsAzu.)
  4. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Modest should definitely be the primary nature on the Choice Specs set. Getting the jump on neutral based 80s isn't really worth the absolutely massive power drop, which Chandelure desperately needs to separate itself from other special attackers in the tier. The only thing significant you really miss out on outspeeding is Adamant Mamoswine, but most tend to run Jolly anyway, and it's not really worth speed tying with either. There's no reason for Sub Split to run Modest but Choice Specs run Timid, it's just not worth. Definitely change this.
  5. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    Updated with both of the above, thanks.
  6. The Great Gastly

    The Great Gastly

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    I would have Memento somewhere on the Scarf set, I use it and it works fantastically for giving a free turn to something that needs one to set-up. It obviously isn't the main focus of a Choice Scarf set, but it certainly is a great option in the last slot since you're typically spamming Shadow Ball anyway and having that fast Memento in tow is excellent utility.

    edit: I also find HP Fighting far too weak for its Scarf set. It does nothing significant to T-tar (especially AV variants), and I'd rather cripple it with the support move, or switch out as it switches in. I'm no QC member, but I find Fire STAB / Shadow Ball / Energy Ball / Support Move works best in combination.
  7. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    Thanks, I will test the Scarf set again. Removing HP Fighting
  8. Tainic

    Tainic

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    HP Ground deserves a mention on the Scarf imo, you wont be killing Ttar anyway but you still can pass through Heatran with it.

    y/n
  9. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    After speaking with Fuzznip and Colonel M, I would like to suggest these changes:

    Choice Scarf
    ########

    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Shadow Ball
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Energy Ball
    move 4: Trick
    ability: Flash Fire / Infiltrator
    item: Choice Scarf
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    I don't see why Flamethrower should be slashed first in the last slot. While the improved accuracy can be convenient in certain scenarios, it is not drastic enough of a difference to warrant including over the move that any Scarf Pokemon would kill to have - Trick. Also, Overheat is not even worth mentioning on this set, as at -2, Chandelure is set-up fodder for a plethora of mons. HP Ground does not deserve a main slash because it only does 51.81% - 61.14% to Heatran, and Trick cripples it anyway.

    Set Details: Memento and HP Ground.

    SubSplit
    ########
    name: SubSplit
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Pain Split
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Fire Blast
    ability: Flash Fire
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest / Timid

    Set Details: HP Fighting, but it's useful for only one threat (Tyranitar), and Chandelure would prefer to have its dual STABs in order to deal with a wider range of threats. Flamethrower deserves a mention, as it is more reliable than Fire Blast and has greater PP, but it misses KOs on Gliscor and Naive Landorus-T.

    Choice Specs
    ########
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Shadow Ball
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Energy Ball
    move 4: Trick
    ability: Flash Fire / Infiltrator
    item: Choice Specs
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest / Timid

    Set Details: Flamethrower over Fire Blast, but it still cannot reliably OHKO Naive Landorus-T and Gliscor. Also, HP Ground over Energy Ball, if nearly OHKO'ing Specially Defensive Heatran is more important for your team than being able to OHKO Rotom-W and dealing solid damage to Tyranitar. However, Heatran does not switch comfortably into Specs Shadow Ball, and Trick cripples him.

    Also, Overheat because of its immense strength, but because of its tendency to make the Pokemon who just used it set-up fodder, it is generally inferior to Fire Blast.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
    Colonel M likes this.
  10. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    Also Infiltrator works for Specs as it completely ignores Light Screen and Substitute. At worst worth a mention.

    (I see how it is SMB lol).
    Jaroda likes this.
  11. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Fixed. :P
  12. thedeafelectrician

    thedeafelectrician

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    I think Blissey / Chansey are actually kind of deceptively shaky checks, you do mention subsplit wrecking them but Trick cripples them immensely and is perfectly viable on scarf or specs, in effect making the blobs vulnerable to each of Chandelure's 3 sets.
  13. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    Alright, I've made most of the changes suggested by Super Mario Bro. However I now am convinced that Memento deserves a slash in the last slot on the Scarf set and should not be relegated to Set Details. With the demonic setup sweepers who only need one turn to kill everything like Mega Lucario and BellyJet Azumarill we have in the metagame right now, the (essentially) free turn Memento provides can win you the game, and that is no exaggeration.
  14. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
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    please also mention hp ice on the scarf set, as timid chandelure is a great way to revenge kill +1 dragonite, as its immune to extremespeed. also allows you to nab a quick ko on garchomp
  15. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Don't forget to also make the changes I suggested with regards to the Specs set.
  16. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    You really should mention somewhere how awesome of a tool Chandelure is against Megazard Y. It is immune to Fire Blast with Flash Fire, resists Solar Beam, and is immune to Focus Blast. It doesn't take too much from Dragon Pulse. The only threat to it is Earthquake, which doesn't even do 75% max with a neutral Attack nature and maxes out at 66.6% with the standard Timid nature. I think that's worth mentioning somewhere and including HP Rock in the Set Details of Scarf/Specs.
  17. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    Done.

    Shadow Ball does plenty to MegaZard Y, even the Scarf set can reliably 2HKO with a little prior damage. I've brought up how good Chandy is against it, but HP Rock doesn't really help much unless you really hate Volcarona...
  18. Tony Scimeca

    Tony Scimeca

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    also you could mention mega-ampharos as a good partner in the similar vein as Rotom-W. Also no mention of Modest nature on Choice Scarf for just that little extra oomph?
  19. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    In the Specs set, you listed Infiltrator as one of its usable abilities, but did not suggest an alternative to the incompatible Trick (like what you've done with the Scarf set) <- or was that just coincidence?
  20. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    QC APPROVED 1/3

    To expound on what Punchshroom said, you should slash Hidden Power Ground with Trick on the Specs set, since it allows Chandelure to have a 75% chance of OHKOing Specially Defensive Heatran after Stealth Rock.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I don't think that we should be advertising any Chandelure other than maybe the Scarf set as a good Mega Char Y switch-in. Any of the coverage moves of Mega Char Y (SolarBeam and Dragon Pulse) 2HKOes Chandelure when followed by Naive EQ, and that's without SR on the field. Not only this, but unless Chandelure gets the Flash Fire boost, it is unable to OHKO back. So, your only chance at checking Mega Char Y is by coming into Fire Blast, and which idiot spams Fire Blast when all the good Fire-resists are alive anyway? At least Scarf Chandelure can OHKO Mega Char Y after SR, or KO a weakened one, so it's an ok check for offensive teams. So, only mention Scarf Chandy as an ok check to Mega Char Y, because all the other sets are very situational and don't really matter.

    With that said, good work!


    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 2/3


    EDIT: Oh, and don't forget to move any alternate move mention from the moves section to the set details section.
  22. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    Cheers guys. I have updated with your suggestions and will be writing this up when I have time.
  23. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    Sorry for double posting, but I'm bumping this as it is finally written up ready for its third and final QC check.
  24. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    remove gene and luc mentions

    also put c&c in the right format. look at some other analyses to get an idea.
  25. Ubiquitous

    Ubiquitous

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    Done.

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