Changes to Arceus's Legality: DPP Ubers Revisited

Fireburn

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#1
So the Ubers community has recently made a startling discovery: a chap known as Cryo on Youtube has discovered a way to use a modified tweaking glitch (aka the glitch used to obtain Darkrai and Shaymin) to legally obtain the Level 80 Hall of Origin Arceus in Diamond and Pearl. Here is video proof of him executing the glitch:


Here is a more detailed source with instructions on how to perform the glitch.

The implication of this is obvious: Arceus in DPP is no longer restricted to 100 EVs per stat (except if it wants to use Spacial Rend, Roar of Time, or Shadow Force obviously) and can now be EV'd fully. This glitch was theoretically possible to execute when D/P originally came out, though it was just discovered recently.

The reason I am making this thread is because this discovery could potentially reignite the debate on whether or not Arceus should be included as part of the "official" DPP Ubers format on PS! If memory serves right, I believe that tweaking glitch Darkrai/Shaymin were legal to use back when DPP Ubers was considered to be the current metagame, so under the same logic it would not make any sense to bar Arceus from the official DPP Ubers metagame as well. This also seems to kill the "Farceus came out so late in the metagame" argument, as this glitch was theoretically possible to do the whole time DP has been out and we have a history of correcting stuff in old gens we didn't know about (see: Body Slam mechs in RBY).

Therefore, in light of these revelations, is there any reason now why Arceus should continue to be prohibited from the official DPP Ubers metagame? This thread is the place to discuss that.
 

shrang

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#2
To be honest I don't think this really changes much. Farceus was still the "official" Ubers tier, but DPP remained non-Farceus not because Farceus was released too late, but because (at least at the time when we decided which one) most the DPP Ubers playerbase liked classic non-Farceus DPP better. To be honest I don't really mind as long as classic DPP without Arceus is still a metagame we can readily play (unlike the situation on PS right now where the only thing you can do to play Farceus is to use Custom Game).

On that topic, can we please have 2 DPP Ubers ladders on PS? If Arceus is going to be the preferred metagame, it would be nice if we could still play classic Smogon DPP Ubers without having to use Custom Game.
 

Minority

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#3
I assume there are DPP Ubers players that would object to the inclusion of Arceus simply because they prefer the tier how it is, or they don't want the current DPP Ubers to be lost forever.

From a tiering perspective it seems clear. Arceus is legal and always has been legal, but this wasn't discovered until now. As the OP mentions there are a number of situations where new mechs / elements were discovered in old gens and the tier was updated as a result. This is because our tiers had a significant disparity with what was in cartridge and that discrepancy had to be fixed. If you continue to restrict Arceus from DPP, it places priority on what a few players "like more" over matching cartridge play. If you were to continue using the outdated ADV sleep mechs even after discovering that the sim had it wrong, can you even say that you're playing ADV?

I think the most reasonable solution is to legalize Arceus in DPP Ubers, but still preserve the old tier that many people have been playing for years by supporting it on PS. If you want to play the old DPP Ubers in a tour like UPL, you can agree to a soft ban with your opponent, but they have every right to bring a legal game element if they want to.
 
#4
all I think that really matters to dpp uberers is the format for upl. personally I am Strongly opposed unless you have 2 dpp slots, one for each meta, so the new guys can take their role compression speed control win conditions to the arceus metagame and grandpas like me can stick with their atheism. if there arent enough slots for that though then I would kindly request that the format for the tournament is not arceus

2 ladders too
 

Vinc2612

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#5
I don't play the tier enough to give any strong opinion on wether Farceus should or should not be allowed, but I really don't like the idea of allowing a Pokémon available only through a glitch.

I've read the part where you say that it was the case for Shaymin and Darkrai, but that was a mistake (or at the very least, an old policy, but definitely not the current one). Their releases fixed the "mistake", but we know that this lvl 80 Arceus will never be released, thus should never be allowed.
 
#6
If you were to continue using the outdated ADV sleep mechs even after discovering that the sim had it wrong, can you even say that you're playing ADV?
This is not the same situation. The sleep mechs were a ''bug'' in the simulators, and a mechanic that wasn't researched properly. If you were to play against a friend on the cartridges, the mechanic would be that one.

However, this is a glitch in the cartridge, and Arceus/Darkrai/Shaymin weren't allowed in Wifi battles nor on the GTS back in the day.
 
#7
Seeing as how arceus which is available, isn't even usable in dpp ubers because of tradition (aka shoddybattle glitch), it'd be a huge stretch to suddenly go from no arceus in dpp ubers play to allowing a non restricted ev arceus. If anything, you'd need to argue about allowing farceus in first before suddenly going to allowing a glitched mon in. Whether you want to discuss the legality of obtaining things in game via glitch is a different debate however.

Unless we have precedent as the shaymin/darkrai scenario would imply, then there should be no reason for this glitched hall of origins arceus to not be allowed since we now have the technology to play with it.

Reasons for not allowing arceus.
1. Simulator restrictions not allowing us to set only 100ev's per stat.
2. We don't want it in the metagame because it'll "ruin" the metagame we played for years.

Both reasons are honestly laughable since the former has been fixed the moment we started using PS, and the latter should never be usable since it allows a precedence for much more dangerous stuff such as if we disagree to certain event mons being usable in competitive play, then we'd just ban them outright.

Due to this, we should allow farceus, the glitch thing is w/e but since people allowed shaymin/darkrai obtained via glitch then I don't see why not allow this as well.
 
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Mr.378

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#8
As I see it I agree with Haruno above that there's no actual reason to disallow this. We as a community only ever disallowed Arceus because there was no glitch for it. Until we decided that Arceus was used in ubers. Now that there is a possible way to obtain an EV trainable Arceus in Generation 4 the only condition that was held to disbar it no longer applies. Old generations usually should not change but this is one of the cases that it should because this is new technical information and we cannot just ignore it. We can't just arbitrarily say we can apply some changes to old gens but not others because we don't like them. This is a glitch in the games and an update of one we've used to allow pokemon in the past at that. Glitches in games are only ignored if they truly break the game and this does not it adds to it if anything. Allowing new content glitches give access to is not a new thing as Little Cup allows pokemon to learn level up moves they normally would not be able to using the Pomeg Glitch.

Overall I believe there is no actual reason to disallow adding Arceus to DPP Ubers outside of personal preference which is no reason to outright ignore content in the game. It should be added to DPP Ubers.
 

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#9
I don't see anything wrong with disallowing Arceus on the basis that it's accessible only through a glitch given that things like the Mimic glitch are illegal in Smogon metagames. The Mimic glitch and the Pomeg glitch both set pretty much opposite precedents regarding this so I don't think that its status as a glitch-exclusive Pokémon is necessarily going to matter regarding whether or not it ends up being legal. I think it matters more what the community wants for the metagame than where we arbitrarily decide to draw the line for glitch-legality, but that's it own whole can of worms.
 

Vinc2612

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#10
Free Belly Drum + Aqua-Jet Azumarill, since a glitch allows me to get Belly Drum + Aqua-Jet Ditto... Same for Roserade Sleep Powder + Spikes. Come on, that doesn't truly break the game, we could allow those glitchs couldn't we?

Allowing new content glitches give access to is not a new thing as Little Cup allows pokemon to learn level up moves they normally would not be able to using the Pomeg Glitch.
Not in Gen 5. Not in Gen 6. Irrelevant in Gen 7. You're right in Gen4 LC, but since Horn Attack / Fury Attack Nidoran♂ is the only case, I'm not sure if it's about allowing the moves through a glitch or just forgetting to ban them because no one cared enough to check.

Edit: my bad, I misunderstood how the glitch works
 
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#11
I agree with what was said before. I think we should allow it and see how it goes. Sure, It isn't just adding a Pokemon, it's like "adding" 17 new Pokemon, that like 5~7 would be viable, mainly Ekiller, Fightceus, Ghostceus(Although no shadow force, except we do the 100ev thingy) and Steelceus. The metagame would change radically and I'm pretty sure there is going to be people who would prefer the old metagame without Arceus. In the beggining, everyone is going to spam it and there would be a lot of complains because if no team preview available, and you were guessing the wrong Arceus the whole team and you already lost to Ekiller.

Also, RBY new mechs changed the metagame, and a bit too in ADV but nobody died because of that, right? Players got used to them and we're fine.

The better way to do this would be two ladders and/or tournament. Just like suspect tests in general. There aren't as many DPP Ubers players as they are in XY/SM Ubers but I still think, at least,we should give it a try.

PS: Does anyone know if this glitch is exclusive to the American cartdrige?
 

Mr.378

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#12
Well if those don't break the game then they should be allowed. At the time of discovery it was decided that the mimic glitch breaks the game due to allowing a vast amount of pokemon to get moves they should not. Similar glitches that allow pokemon to learn every move have been found and it was decided to keep movepools restircted to everything as a catch all fix. Glitches are a case by case basis and this one doesn't harm the game the same way the mimic one does as all it does is allow the use of a pokemon that wasn't released instead of something as wild as the mimic glitch.

The Pomeg Glitch's main use was allowing genderless pokemon such as Staryu to get level up moves they could not normally have access to. The fact that it is irrelevant in later gens due to changes in future mechaics doesn't matter here. It was allowed in the metagame at the time.
 

Fireburn

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#13
As far as I can tell from combing through old PR threads (a trip through memory lane if there ever was one), we follow a simple banning philosophy at our core: whatever is legally obtainable in-game without the aid of an external cheating device (example: using a Gameshark to get Wonder Guard Spiritomb or Sheer Cold Machamp) is fair game unless it is explicitly banned by our ruleset. Glitches fall under this definition, and usually they have only been prohibited if they are significantly detrimental to competitive balance or just play in general (Acid Weather, Mimic Glitch, glitchmons in rby). The rationale for allowing the Darkrai and Shaymin obtainable via the tweaking glitch is that they are fully obtainable within the confines of the game itself, without the aid of an external cheating device, and it is possible to start a multiplayer battle with these Pokemon once obtained. This was previously not thought to be possible with the Hall of Origin Arceus, but we now have conclusive proof that it was in fact possible the whole time, ergo it should be allowed under the same rationale that Darkrai and Shaymin were allowed.

(Note that there isn't a thread I could find titled "Darkrai and Shaymin are now unbanned", but from reviewing the old PR stuff there is enough to indicate they were allowed.)

However, this is a glitch in the cartridge, and Arceus/Darkrai/Shaymin weren't allowed in Wifi battles nor on the GTS back in the day.
This is irrelevant. It was decided long ago that the simulator aims to emulate local battles, where the use of Arceus/Darkrai/Shaymin was unrestricted. We are under no obligation to automatically ban all glitches - just ones that are detrimental to competitive play. I don't think it can be argued that obtaining Darkrai or Shaymin via the tweaking glitch has been detrimental to competitive play, therefore neither is allowing Arceus.
 
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Zarel

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#14
Apparently acid weather, Mimic Glitch, and RBY glitchmons were ruled one way and most other glitches were ruled the other way.

Personally, I think "what would be allowed at VGC" is a pretty good rule. VGC actually does allow certain hacked Pokémon (under the assumption that an average player might not be able to tell that a Pokémon they traded for is hacked). I think this means that egg legality isn't checked (all egg moves are legal in combination with each other).

I don't know exactly how they'd rule this one specifically, though. Probably not allow.
 

TheMantyke

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#15
Hacked Pokemon are not so much allowed as they are tolerated in VGC since a hacked pokemon that conforms to in game standards well enough is completely indistinguishable from a Pokemon caught or bred normally. However, anything that you can't do naturally in the game will land you in hot water.

For example, there are multiple egg moves for VGC 2017 Pokemon that require Pokemon only accessible through Pokemon Bank to get. All of these moves were forbidden throughout the tournaments that took place pre bank and would disqualify you if you were using them.

If you want a better litmus test for how friendly TPCi would play with the glitch, Pokemon Bank is nice. Traditionally, Pokemon that can only be obtained through glitches (tweaked Darkrais in DP below the lowest legal Pt level of 50, RBY Mew glitched Mews) are not allowed to be transferred. I'm not sure if anyone's tried passing this Arceus through Bank yet, but I'm fairly confident it wouldn't be allowed.

(I personally feel 4th gen ubers should get to choose if they want to implement this or not based on how the community feels, but I don't really have any ground to stand on or comment outside of that)
 

Hugendugen

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#16
So I haven't been around for a long time, but I do occasionally stop by and I happened to notice this thread and felt obliged to comment.

I think there are two important considerations. First of all, whether it is technically possible to acquire the Pokemon without external input and use it in wifi battles. This begs the question, do we allow Pokemon obtained through glitches? The precedent seems to be that we sometimes do, sometimes don't. It's definitely an important discussion to have and, ideally, we can establish a clear set of guidelines for what is allowed and what isn't. This could for instance be: 'Allow anything that is possible without external input, but let tiers remove elements through bans and clauses.'

That leads on to the second important consideration - if we decide that Arceus' availability technically warrants inclusion, does that mean that we should actually include it in DPP Ubers? This is tricky, since our philosophy towards Ubers has changed since Gen 4. By the current definition of Ubers, we could simply ban Arceus, like we did Mega Rayquaza, but in Gen 4, there was no precedent for banning a pokemon from Ubers. However, DPP Ubers still had the OHKO clause, so there is a precedent for banning elements of the game for competitive reasons. Now with regards to Arceus, I'm obviously biased, since Arceus-less DPP Ubers is my all time favourite metagame, but I did also play Farceus DPP Ubers, which was available on PO at the time. Most of the competitive players on Smogon agreed that the Arceus-less version was far more enjoyable and I suspect that most of the people who still play the metagame agree as well. So my question is, who would we be catering to, by including Arceus in the metagame? I agree with BKC that the most important thing is which version of the metagame is used in tournaments. This is where the competitive play that is left happens and I don't think we would be catering to the competitive players, by including Arceus in DPP Ubers. The ladder had 600 battles in December, so it isn't a major issue, but I do think it should represent the metagame as it is played competitively.

If it is deemed necessary, I don't mind whether it's suspect tested or put to some sort of council vote, but given the metagame's history and the preferences of competitive players, I don't think Arceus should be included simply because it is technically possible to acquire it.
 

Fireburn

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#17
I am posting on behalf of WreckDra who is having trouble accessing his account:

WreckDra said:
The answer that would probably please the most people is adding the official format to the server with Arceus included.

I don't see why we can't have both the snapshot we created without (F)Arceus, even though the conditions for that metagame existing different now, while also having the "official" metagame that includes (F)Arceus. The unofficial metagame is by far the most popular and that alone should be enough criteria for it to exist. The official metagame should still exist because it can legally exist over local DS battles. The official and unofficial metagames have coexisted for a long time and I see no reason to discontinue one of them if it means violating (then and now's) Ubers policy or making a very zealous piece of the community feel robbed. In terms of simulator formats, both metagames can operate with the official metagame ruleset as a challengeable format for tournament play as the tournament organizer can easilly state that the tournament is to be played without Arceus of any kind and it's impossible to violate this rule without getting caught unless Arceus never enters the field or no replay is saved (this is the guy who faced Arceus's fault in most cases imo). It is much harder to hold a tournament for the official metagame if the challengeable format is Arceus-less due to custom games allowing cartridge-impossible EV totals (see what happened last Farceus tournament) and that being harder to catch than observing a goat shoved through a fence on the field. If both can't exist on the server at once for whatever reason, I suggest the official one be the format we use.

If we want ladder play, we may want both formats. DPP Ubers as a whole is hardly worthy of a ladder though and if it was, the (F)Arceus-less format would be far more worthy of its own ladder format than the official metagame. A ladder tournament of the more popular (F)Arceus-less will require both formats be on the server at once if we build on the official metagame being the standard challengeable format. If its cool to have both on the server at once, then everything is cool here. We have some more discussion to do if they can't though.

RE adding Arceus to the official format: This conversation's right answers are all rather nasty due to the way Smogon has done things over the years. It is one of those disputes that will be decided on subjectiveness and wording of the best post at the time. Its a topic that you can theoretically run circles around forever.

My own personal stance is that we should use precedent from the times IE the time of Shaymin and Darkrai being legal due to a glitch, but I have nothing sufficient enough to present that can't be outworded by opposition eventually. - WreckDra
 

Fireburn

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#18
If you want a better litmus test for how friendly TPCi would play with the glitch, Pokemon Bank is nice. Traditionally, Pokemon that can only be obtained through glitches (tweaked Darkrais in DP below the lowest legal Pt level of 50, RBY Mew glitched Mews) are not allowed to be transferred. I'm not sure if anyone's tried passing this Arceus through Bank yet, but I'm fairly confident it wouldn't be allowed.
Just to shed some light on this, a user by the name of average fella has attempted to transfer the Void Glitch HOO Arceus to Gen 7 and he managed to succeed. It would appear the method for passing the legality check is the same as Darkrai's - he only had to level it to 100 for Pokebank to accept it as valid. Not sure if that means anything other than Bank having a shoddy legitimacy checking system, but it's food for thought. Here's the evidence he was able to provide:

http://i.imgur.com/QkyQ5KB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZFpx3pW.jpg (Notice Met Location and lack of Classic Ribbon)

For what it is worth, I would welcome DPP Ubers with and without Arceus being separate challengeable formats regardless of whether or not we accept the Arceus into the "official" metagame. Both metagames have their perks and fans, and it would be nice to have a vehicle in which to play both without hassle. I do believe that continuing to disallow Arceus would be inconsistent with the policies back when DPP was the current generation and - at least in the case of Farceus - misrepresent the actual state of DPP Ubers as it should have properly been when the generation shift came. In short, the (F)Arceus metagame by all means should be the "official" DPP Ubers metagame. However, this distinction is only superficial for all practical purposes as DPP Ubers is no longer (and likely never will be again) played in official tournaments, so for unofficial tournaments such as UPL and other subforum tours we can pick which metagame to play as we see fit. So if you're afraid of the "death" of classic Arceus-less DPP Ubers, you need not fear.
 

Zarel

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#19
Hacked Pokemon are not so much allowed as they are tolerated in VGC since a hacked pokemon that conforms to in game standards well enough is completely indistinguishable from a Pokemon caught or bred normally. However, anything that you can't do naturally in the game will land you in hot water.
I've heard this isn't entirely true.

By which I've been told that stuff like illegal ribbons will not be caught by the validator judges use at VGC events, and judges are told specifically to allow hacked Pokémon as long as they pass the validator.