Chansey with only S-Toss or Toxic is huge set up bait for too many Pokemon, so SR shouldn't get more than a ''Moves'' mention on the Wish set. However, the support set definitely has room for it.
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OU Chansey
- Thread starter LightningLuxray
- Start date
I'm fine with a "moves" mention, but Toxic isn't mandatory, in my opinion. It's definitely the better option over SR but when SR's gotta be put somewhere it should definitely be over Toxic rather than S-toss. S-toss wears down the majority of threats more efficiently/reliably than Toxic, and it's not hard to accommodate Toxic on other mons.
So yeah, moves mention is fine, just also mention that you should replace Toxic rather than S-toss.
Done :)
I'll move the Support set up, (IMO Wish is much better; being able to pass a Wish to the likes of Lando-T, Heatran, Aegislash, etc can really save you the game) I'm really not for slashing Stealth Rock on the Wish set. The fact is that SR is usually better set up by Chansey's teammates, such as Heatran, Hippowdon, and Clefable. Losing status really sucks for Chansey, as it isn't able to cripple walls/sweepers, and with SR, it can find itself as somewhat of a sitting duck a lot of the time. For right now I really don't want to move it up to a main slash, if other QC members really want it to get a main slash I guess I could add it, but IMO it's really a waste when Chansey's teammates don't have to sacrifice as valuable of a moveslot.
The fact of the matter is that Chansey's teammates won't always be able to accommodate Stealth Rock nicely. In the case that Chansey needs to use it, it's better to slash it over Toxic as opposed to Seismic Toss. That is what needs to be communicated. Whether it's a moves mention or a slash, there are two things that hold true that the reader must know:
- Chansey can set up Stealth Rock reliably if need be.
- If that is the case, replace Toxic, not Seismic Toss.
Ok, now I understand. I'll make sure to emphasize that it should only be used over Toxic.
PISTOLERO
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
In C&C, there should be a couple of Pokemon that can really screw Chansey up:
Gothitelle traps her and forces her to take Choice Specs, crippling her hideously.
Wobbuffet (very oldschool I know) can Encore her and turn her into setup fodder for something else.
Gengar is immune to Seismic Toss and Toxic (has to watch out for Thunder Wave), and can set up Substitute and be a bitch. It can also trick away a Choice item.
Chansey also needs to be wary of switching into other certain special attackers such as Lati@s, Celebi etc as they can easily Trick away their choice item and cripple her completely.
Gothitelle traps her and forces her to take Choice Specs, crippling her hideously.
Wobbuffet (very oldschool I know) can Encore her and turn her into setup fodder for something else.
Gengar is immune to Seismic Toss and Toxic (has to watch out for Thunder Wave), and can set up Substitute and be a bitch. It can also trick away a Choice item.
Chansey also needs to be wary of switching into other certain special attackers such as Lati@s, Celebi etc as they can easily Trick away their choice item and cripple her completely.
Trappers and Trick have been mentioned.
Gengar V Chansey is kind of a stalemate... It's possible for Chansey to PP stall depending on how much PP both Pokemon have left on their moves/what moves they're running. I'll still make a mention, though.
Thanks for the suggestions :)
PISTOLERO
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
I guess if Gengar gets (very) lucky with Focus Blast, or uses Sludge Bomb and poisons, Gengar can come out on top - and typically Gengar would probably be more than happy to get Chansey out of the way for the rest of its team.
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 252-298 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after poison damage (but who runs Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast and Substitute - and if Gengar is Life Orb then it's screwed).
However, Gengar with Pain Split can really really screw up Chansey, as Pain Split does twice as much as any of Gengar's attacks (and I am a fan of SubSplit Gengar myself). Also, there are certain fun Gengar sets that can completely screw up Chansey, such as Shadow Ball/Substitute/Disable/Taunt. I myself love this set as well and it does other things apart from completely screw up Chansey/Blissey/everything else lol. but i actually really like Chansey, unlike Blissey (stupid fat bitch lol).
There is also a damage percentage point that separates Chansey from Blissey. I can't remember exactly what it is, but if i recall, Blissey takes moves that do 33% or less (not completely sure about the exact number, i'll go hunting for it and tell you later) better than Chansey due to Blissey having Leftovers recovery (and Blissey can Wish+Protect and get Leftovers recovery from that too). Blissey can also do things like run Ice Beam/Flamethrower/etc to clip Scizor/Gliscor with on the switchin, whereas Chansey can't do anything except Seismic Toss - I think it's worth mentioning the differences between the two at some point.
However, Chansey's ridiculous bulk is apparent when you start to play with the damage calculator:
+4 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
as compared to
+4 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 330-388 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
There is also an optimised spread for Chansey to take hits as best it can on both sides of the spectrum, and it's not 252HP/252 Def Bold or 252 Def/252 SpDef Calm I don't think. Near max Defensive investment (maybe not 252, maybe 240 to hit an eviolite jump point) is definitely a must as it almost triples Chansey's physical bulk - I'll track down the spread in question if i can (or maybe a QC member knows it, it mightj have been something weird like 112 HP/244 Def+/rest in SpDef, i really can't remember - this was a huge discussion in the UnderUsed room back when Chansey was in UU)
sorry for the huge paragraph of stuff, great job on this analysis though, like i said i always liked Chansey and have always disliked Blissey, so I'm glad that Chansey is better this generation :)
p.s. sorry i missed the Trick/trapper mentions, Gothitelle is definitely the best way of removing Chansey as a defensive threat though :)
Yeah, with the correct moveset, Gengar can definitely beat Chansey. Also if you can find that good Chansey EV spread that would be awesome.
Thanks for the help :)
DoW
formally Death on Wings
I know it's a worse option, but should protect be mentioned as an option over soft-boiled? Instant recovery is generally better, however the toxic stall can be better at times and protect helps to scout for knock off and trick, as well as helping work out what set your opponent has or what move a choiced opponent will lock themselves into.
Take this with a pinch of salt, I'm not a very good competitive battler however I thought I should suggest it.
Edit: Probably obvious, but this is referring to the wish set.
Take this with a pinch of salt, I'm not a very good competitive battler however I thought I should suggest it.
Edit: Probably obvious, but this is referring to the wish set.
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It's already mentioned in both "Moves" and "Other Options."
EDIT: Also some QC checks would be lovely... :)
Thanks! :)
Ok, I've done everything bar the spelling mistakes.
For the check/counter list, I used the analysis list to decide who should go on. I also excluded purely defensive Pokemon because then the list would just be way to long. If there's anything you think I should add/lose, tell me and I'll do it.
EDIT: I'll also probably put the list in alphabetical order once you confirm the final.
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In the overview, note that Chansey gained massive competition in the form of Sylveon, particularly for balanced or semi-stall teams. Although Chansey has superior defensive stats, Sylveon possesses essentially the same movepool but with a better typing and a far more threatening attack than Seismic Toss.
In team options, make sure you mention a reliable defogger or spinner. One of the most common ways to beat Chansey is to overwhelm it with multiple layers of hazards, and with them on the field, Chansey basically becomes near-dead weight since it has to recover nearly every time it switches in. As always, with the mention of Defog, also mention Pokemon to counter Bisharp, particularly since Chansey is so weak to it.
Lastly, branch out a little bit in your team options and move out beyond typical stall Pokemon. There are many Pokemon who can appreciate Chansey's support even if they're not stall Pokemon themselves. For example, SubToxic Aegislash can easily switch into Fighting-type moves and can be a little more liberal with Substitute if it knows Chansey is there to back it up with Wish support. Assault Vest users become extremely potent with Wish support as well. Landorus-T easily switches into physical attackers, but will get worn down over time. Wish support fixes that problem extremely easily. In addition, think also of Pokemon who frequently attract Rotom-W's Will-o-Wisp, such as Garchomp, Mega Pinsir, or Mega Mawile. With Chansey's reliable Heal Bell, the player can make riskier plays against Rotom-W if they know a burn can be healed.
Just be creative here. Chansey is actually quite flexible when you consider how helpful it can be.
Lastly, mention the move Psyshock in Checks and Counters. It can easily throw Chansey off guard—for example, LO Starmie's Analytic Psyshock can actually do upwards of 50% to Chansey, which is a major pain if Chansey's already weakened and is looking for something to use Softboiled against, or if heavy hazards are up.
In team options, make sure you mention a reliable defogger or spinner. One of the most common ways to beat Chansey is to overwhelm it with multiple layers of hazards, and with them on the field, Chansey basically becomes near-dead weight since it has to recover nearly every time it switches in. As always, with the mention of Defog, also mention Pokemon to counter Bisharp, particularly since Chansey is so weak to it.
Lastly, branch out a little bit in your team options and move out beyond typical stall Pokemon. There are many Pokemon who can appreciate Chansey's support even if they're not stall Pokemon themselves. For example, SubToxic Aegislash can easily switch into Fighting-type moves and can be a little more liberal with Substitute if it knows Chansey is there to back it up with Wish support. Assault Vest users become extremely potent with Wish support as well. Landorus-T easily switches into physical attackers, but will get worn down over time. Wish support fixes that problem extremely easily. In addition, think also of Pokemon who frequently attract Rotom-W's Will-o-Wisp, such as Garchomp, Mega Pinsir, or Mega Mawile. With Chansey's reliable Heal Bell, the player can make riskier plays against Rotom-W if they know a burn can be healed.
Just be creative here. Chansey is actually quite flexible when you consider how helpful it can be.
Lastly, mention the move Psyshock in Checks and Counters. It can easily throw Chansey off guard—for example, LO Starmie's Analytic Psyshock can actually do upwards of 50% to Chansey, which is a major pain if Chansey's already weakened and is looking for something to use Softboiled against, or if heavy hazards are up.
They offer very similar support capabilities, and both are specially bulky. Sylveon trades in bulk for a better typing and stronger attack that deters a wider range of Pokemon. While Chansey is usually the go-to option for stall, semi-stall and balanced teams should weigh Sylveon before automatically choosing Chansey. I'm not saying that either outclasses the other, but both are usable and often end up fulfilling very similar roles.
Added everything bar the whole Sylveon thing (Not really sure what the final verdict was...)
Fine, there doesn't need to be a mention in the overview. My point, however, wasn't that Chansey doesn't belong on Stall, nor that Sylveon does. It's more for semi-stall and balanced teams. I've found them to be relatively similar but if you and others disagree then I'm willing to concede.
I actually disagree with CyclicCompound on Chansey - it is fine on semi-stallish teams; however, many stall teams had this as their core:
- Unaware Quagsire
- Unaware Clefable
- Hippowdon
- Chansey
- Mega Venusaur / Mega Charizard X
and a filler
So bear in mind that Chansey is a Pokemon that can fit into either type of stall role.
- Unaware Quagsire
- Unaware Clefable
- Hippowdon
- Chansey
- Mega Venusaur / Mega Charizard X
and a filler
So bear in mind that Chansey is a Pokemon that can fit into either type of stall role.
What I was referring to in that post was a previous post of mine in which I discussed the comparison of Chansey and Sylveon in semi-stall teams. Just to clarify, I agree that Chansey belongs in all forms of stall, be it full or semi-stall.