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Charizard (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Venser, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. Venser

    Venser

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    [​IMG]
    rawr charizard

    approvals: bad ass | bloo | iconic
    _______________________________________

    [overview]

    • Solar Power is a welcome addition to Charizard, making it a fearsome sweeper under the sun.
    • Stats lackluster save slightly-above-average Sp. Atk and Speed.
    • Many new Sunny Day sweepers in black/white means Charizard faces stiff competition.
    [set]
    name: Sunny Day Abuse
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: SolarBeam
    move 4: Focus Blast
    nature: Timid
    ability: Solar Power
    item: Expert Belt
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [set comments]

    • Solar power boosts boosts special attack by 50% but causes 1/8 HP recoil per turn
    • Tears through teams under the sun, due to the Solar Power boost
    • Expert Belt both reduces recoil and has a chance of feigning a choice item
    • Focus Blast allows Charizard to hit Heatran super-effectively
    [additional comments]

    • Hidden Power Grass can be used over SolarBeam if you fear weather changers switching in
    • Hidden Power Ground is an option in the last slot, and trades power for reliability.
    • Nitro Charge can be used if you feel like sacrificing coverage for the chance at a sweep
    • Flamethrower is more reliable than Fire Blast, but the power increase is hard to pass up
    • Rapid Spin is necessary, considering that Charizard takes 50% upon switching in from Stealth Rocks
    • Sunny Day support could be used if Ninetails isn't present
    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move 1: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 2: Hidden Power Grass
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Air Slash
    nature: Timid
    ability: Solar Power
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [set comments]

    • This set is a hit and run attacker, switching in and out
    • Choice Specs gives Charizard a power boost, but Choice Scarf lets him tie with +1 base 100s
    • Can be used outside of sun, but is much better with Drought support
    • Choice Specs can 2HKO Blissey under the sun with Focus Blast
    [additional comments]

    • Rapid Spin is very nice, prolonging Charizards longevity
    • Entry hazards make it easier for Charizard to score KOs.
    • Hidden Power Ground is an option depending on your coverage wishes, but isn't legal on the same set as Hidden Power Grass.
    [teammates and counters]

    • Ninetails has Drought, which provides eternal sun
    • Donphan can spin away rocks and set up its own
    • Espeon prevents stealth rock and can support charizard as a sweeper
    • Spikes also make for more KOs
    • Beware other weather changers, such as Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Politoed
    • Chlorophyll Venusaur can use the sun as well, while taking out or incapacitating some of Charizard's checks if they switch in
    • RAPID SPIN! Seriously, switching into stealth rocks combined with Solar Power means that Charizard starts with 40%.
    [optional changes]

    • Belly Drum or subsalac sets don't work as well in this metagame due to the increase in priority
    • Unboosted Physical attack stat too low to really do anything
    • A mixed Nitro Charge set could work, but doesn't hit hard enough
    • Charizard has access to Swords Dance and Dragon Dance, but base 84 attack isn't that much even when boosted.
    [dream world]

    • Charizard's dream world ability, Solar Power, has already been released
  2. Venser

    Venser

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    I think this is done pre-prose with the Ubers-viable sets. What do I do now? Just start in on the prose?
  3. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Run Dragon Pulse in slot 3 and Focus Blast / HP Ground in the LAST slot. :0 Air Slash doesn't really hit anything important in OU, it's better to get Heatran AND Dragons. HP Grass should really also be slashed over Solarbeam, as a weather changer/nullifier switching in on Solarbeam is basically a death sentence for Charizard. Also, if you're gonna use Nitro Charge, it should be used instead of a Grass move, strange as that sounds... Fighting/Ground + Dragon along with Fire STAB pretty much hits everything important, and Solarbeam is the riskiest of these if you're using HP Ground. (Actually, I don't think Nitro Charge is even that great... you could just as soon use Sunny Day somewhere on there, so at least you have a chance of still being useful against Tyranitar if you can predict their switch-in.)

    ...wait what? Why HP Grass on this one and not the last one? HP Grass and Solarbeam should always be slashed over each other on a SolarZard set.

    What priority is there that Zard needs to worry about? Aqua Jetters are a given, but as far as NEW priority goes, the only significant new users I can think of (aside from Mischevious Heart Taunters, which are admittedly a problem) are Roopushin, whose Mach Punch doesn't bother Charizard, and Kirikizian, who dies to Fire Punch or Earthquake (Sucker Punch is easily avoided with Sub). If you're gonna play this card, you need to at least say what important threats can hit it... that is, what new Aqua Jetters are gonna threaten it (Charizard isn't weak to any other priority, Sucker Punch is easily avoided as mentioned and the only other thing to worry about is Dragonite's Extremespeed).
  4. j99ubers

    j99ubers

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    Fire Blast/Flamethrower under the sun(even in rain its only slightly less) is hitting Dialga alot harder than HP ground so I don't think that he needs to be slashed alongside Heatran.
  5. He Who Must Not Be Named

    He Who Must Not Be Named

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    I can't wait for Solar Power Charizard!
    It's so strong!
  6. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    It's already out, it was a pre-release event.

    Also Life Orb needs to go... the amount of damage your taking is just ridiculous. That's 20% from attacking once, or 5 attacks in total. This is assuming you DON'T take prior damage or hazard damage. Don't even make it an option, axe it all together because that power is not worth it the recoil.
  7. He Who Must Not Be Named

    He Who Must Not Be Named

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    I mean when it gets released in the US.
    I don't really like Japan.
  8. Banryu

    Banryu

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    This. As it is, SolarZard can only last a maximum of 8 turns WITHOUT Life Orb-- not that it will stay alive that long anyway, but cutting down that already-low survivability is a bad idea. Take out Life Orb, make Expert Belt the main item.
  9. SunnyE

    SunnyE

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    I didn't see this tread b4, so i made a charizard moveset... sorry... but since this is the one, can i put my moveset here?
    EDIT:do you realy think that Charizard isn't worth using physicaly NOW? in 4th gen it was quite hard to use him that way, but now a Physical Charizard is increadably strong, i've been testing him and in more than one ocasion he's given me a cleen sweep, 6x0 game, and other countless times has turned around a lost game into a 1x0win
  10. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
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    Why Overheat isn't an option on the Choice set? The extra power can be interesting, even more if it's an hit-an-run attacker.
  11. SunnyE

    SunnyE

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    probably cuz overheat is ilegal with solar power, since charizard only learns it through TM and it no longer is one in the 5th gen.. or can he still ge it through breeding?
  12. Donny Mae.

    Donny Mae.

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    Wise glasses/expert belt should be slashed over life-orb. That recoil is retarded.
  13. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

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    Hang on, isn't this the OU analysis subforum? I didn't Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza and Dialga were legal in OU, or am I missing something here?
  14. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
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    Overheat is still a TM in gen 5 according to Serebii.
  15. NightShadow

    NightShadow

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    I personally think LO should stay at least as the secondary slash. The damage output becomes obscene.

    Charizard LO Timid 252 SpA EVs STAB Fire Blast in the Sun vs 252/0 Blissey = 43.7%-51.4%.

    i mean seriously? Almost a guaranteed 2HKO Blissey with Rocks on the field. amazing.
  16. Bloo

    Bloo
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    Head TD

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    Setsuna and I discussed this and came up with all of the writing you'll find as you read on. Please get rid of any mentions of Kyogre and Groudon. This is the OU analysis sub-forum, and as such, this analysis should be geared towards OU Pokemon, not Uber ones. Also, it'd be nice if you could explain what Solar Power does in your post - it'd be helpful to us readers. Moving on, the Sunny Day Abuse set should look like the following: (the below includes the changes I'm going to suggest along with formatting changes).

    [SET]
    name: Sunny Day Abuse
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: SolarBeam
    move 4: Focus Blast / Dragon Pulse
    nature: Timid
    ability: Solar Power
    item: Expert Belt
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    I removed Hidden Power Ground because it's superfluous with Focus Blast. Focus Blast already annihilates Heatran, so the need for Hidden Power Ground lessens. It deserves an Additional Comments mention, though. I made Fire Blast the main option, mainly because Charizard needs as much power as it can get, and Fire Blast does just that (especially under sun). Flamethrower, however, does have better accuracy and is still packs quite a punch, so it definitely deserves a mention somewhere. Perhaps AC, as well.

    I omitted Life Orb as an item option. Solar Power in conjunction with Stealth Rock / Life Orb will just deplete Charizard's health too rapidly, resulting in an early death. Expert Belt should suffice; it allows Charizard to feign a Choice item and gives him a slight power increase with super effective moves. You should also probably mention Hidden Power Grass in AC as well as mentioned previously. With weather being omnipresent nowadays, there's a high chance Charizard's sun will go away, making SolarBeam nearly impossible to set-up. HP Grass gives you a back-up plan should this happen. The rest were just format changes: for example, you had "Moves", which should be "moves", and so on. I believe that all of these changes make the Op look much cleaner, so please take it into consideration.

    Please get rid of any mentions of Kyogre and Groudon. This is the OU analysis sub-forum, and as such, this analysis should be geared towards OU Pokemon, not Uber ones. The Choice set should look like this, IMO:

    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move 1: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 2: Hidden Power Grass
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Dragon Pulse
    nature: Timid
    ability: Solar Power
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    I made the same format changes as above, made Fire Blast the main option for the same reasons as above, and made Choice Specs the main optio because I generally find Charizard to be a better Choice Specs user than Choice Scarf user because it allows the guy to muscle through things to the best of its ability. Lastly, please clarify this:

    Without sun in play (hence no Solar Power boost), Focus Blast does 34.1% - 40.2% to a Bissey running max Defense and Special defense. With sun in place, and with a Solar Power boost, Focus Blast does 51% - 60.2%, giving it a chance to 2HKO. So, please clear this up in your post. I'll give this an approval once everything has been take care of thoroughly.
  17. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    Confirming this is what Bloo and I concluded. My approval is pending on these changes as well.
  18. Venser

    Venser

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    Whoops, forgot to subscribe to this thread :p Made all the suggested changes and rewrote most of it for an OU environment. Marking this as a skeleton.
  19. Banryu

    Banryu

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    I wanted to point out that with regard to Bloo's post, I don't believe that HP Ground is still a superfluous option.... Focus Blast has a very shaky 70% accuracy, whereas HP Ground is infinitely more reliable. Charizard might lose that supereffective coverage on others, but there might be those (speaking for myself, if no one else) who would want to run HP Ground solely to deal with Heatran, with the other moves sufficing elsewhere.
  20. Gabe

    Gabe

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    BellyZard should still be an option. Now that Charizard has another decent viable set, it is able to get in a Sub much more easier because people are more prone to switch out on it.
  21. Venser

    Venser

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    I'll change the wording in AC somewhat, but its staying there. Focus Blast guarantees OHKOs on all the Heatran sets, save for Specially Defensive (which HP Ground doesn't take out either). In addition, Heatran is more commonly seen running Balloon than anything else (check the usage stats, it's true), which means that Charizard must resort to taking a turn of Solar Power recoil + an attack of Heatran's choice/Substitute in order to even hit with HP Ground.

    No. I've been fucking around with Charizard a lot, and in this meta, everyone is packing Aqua Jets and Mach Punches to deal with Shell Breakers, Doryuuzu, and the like. It usually takes out about one Pokemon before it is revenged. Also: Stealth Rock. The allowance of the Deoxys Formes mean that it's easy to stick SR on an extremely powerful attacker/wall-thing, and when they force a switch they can easily throw up SR. In addition, spinning is harder to accomplish, due to Burungeru's prevalence.
  22. Venser

    Venser

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    Added something in OO about DD and SD.
  23. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Ah, Balloon, I'd forgot about that. :0 Yeah, that changes a lot... I rescind my previous statement then.
  24. am zane ok.

    am zane ok.

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    ¿que?

    I think you meant "Charizard". Damned dinosaurs, always getting your crires wossed.

    -Zane
  25. Venser

    Venser

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    Cool, no problem.
    Haha whoops! I also typed Tyranitar into Veekun when I wanted to confirm it got SD and DD. That's what I get for, um, writing about dino/dragon things?

    Fixed.

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