Charizard (BW2 Update) [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Governess, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] 3/3: | tennisace | ebeast | Raseri |
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    [Overview]

    <p>Even in previous generations, Charizard was known as a very threatening Pokemon. It is very versatile, as its balanced offenses, large movepool, and great Speed allow it to run a vast variety of sets. For that reason, Charizard is mostly seen on offensive teams, as well as sun teams, where its Fire-type attacks are much more powerful. Its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock can hinder its ability to sweep, but it's safe to say that Charizard is the strongest Fire-type Pokemon in NU.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass / Substitute
    move 4: Roost
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Charizard's high Special Attack and Speed allow it to function as an exceptional sweeper. Its strong STAB moves and good coverage are highlighted in this set. Charizard is a great addition to many teams that struggle against physical walls such as Tangela and Weezing. Fire Blast is one of Charizard's powerful STAB moves, and it guarantees an OHKO against Eviolite Roselia and Braviary. Air Slash is its secondary STAB option; while Fire- and Flying-type moves overlap in type coverage, Air Slash is great against Fire-immune Pokemon and Water-types. Hidden Power Grass offers even more coverage to Water- and Rock-type Pokemon. It specifically hits Seismitoad hard, OHKOing all common variants of it. However, Substitute can be used to avoid status conditions that would otherwise cripple Charizard. Roost is the final move of the set; it enables Charizard to heal itself if it switches into Stealth Rock, as well as allowing it to maintain longevity on the field.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Life Orb gives additional power to Charizard's attacks. Blaze is the best choice of ability for this set, as Charizard can OHKO a 176 HP / 0 SpD Golurk with Fire Blast when it is activated. However, if Charizard is used on a sun team, Solar Power can replace Blaze to strengthen its attacks. SolarBeam could also be used in such a scenario, replacing Hidden Power Grass. Leftovers can be used in lieu of Life Orb for consistent healing. Flamethrower is an option over Fire Blast if accuracy is preferred over power. Finally, Focus Blast can be used in the third moveslot to hit Normal- and Rock-types harder, but it's an unreliable choice due to its lackluster accuracy. Tailwind can also considered over Roost, making priority the only way to outspeed Charizard.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin support is recommended, as Charizard would be easy to defeat if it comes in with Stealth Rock on the field. Wartortle is a prime spinner for Charizard, as it can also help against Regirock. Mold Breaker Sawk is a great partner for Charizard as well, as it can stop Stealth Rock from being set up through offensive pressure. Another option that isn't required is running Sunny Day support for Charizard, as it appreciates a Fire-type attack boost; Volbeat and Regirock are good choices for this. If Sunny Day support is used, sun sweepers, such as Sawsbuck, Exeggutor, and Rapidash, are recommended as Charizard's partners. Even with Charizard's immense strength, having entry hazards on the field can turn several 2HKOs into OHKOs. Kangaskhan and Miltank (without Thick Fat) are two examples of Pokemon that could be OHKOed by Charizard after being weakened by Stealth Rock and Spikes. Regirock, Garbodor, and Scoilpede are great partners in laying these entry hazards.</p>

    <p>As for more specific partners, Roselia and Tangela are great to use alongside Charizard, as they can handle Water- and Rock-type Pokemon it has difficulty against, specifically Alomomola, Samurott, and Carracosta. Mantine in particular can take anything Charizard can throw at it and retaliate back with its Water-type attacks. Electric-types, such as Rotom-S, are good allies that can get rid of Mantine. If Substitute isn't used in the third moveslot, Charizard is prone to status conditions, especially paralysis. Misdreavus and Miltank, both of which can weaken the adversary with status moves of their own, can heal Charizard of status with Heal Bell.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Flamethrower
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Air Slash / Hidden Power Grass
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Charizard already rests at a great Speed tier, but when it's holding a Choice Scarf, it transforms into an excellent revenge killer. It's a great choice when a player is in need of a Pokemon that can clean up weakened teams. Charizard doesn't need to rely on sun support for this set, as it can function solely without it. Fire Blast and Flamethrower are both Fire-type move options; the former is mostly for revenge killing threats while the latter is for cleaning up the weakened adversary. Focus Blast is a great coverage move to KO Pokemon Charizard cannot dent with its other moves, such as Regirock, Golem, Probopass, and Lickilicky. The final moveslot is a filler option based on what threat you wish to cover. Air Slash allows Charizard to check Modest Ludicolo in the rain, as it hits Ludicolo harder than Fire Blast. On the other hand, Hidden Power Grass allows Charizard to dent Seismitoad.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Scarf allows Charizard to outspeed the majority of the tier, including Scolipede, Jynx, and Choice Scarf Sawk. With Blaze, Charizard can use Stealth Rock to its advantage; after switching into Stealth Rock twice, Charizard can activate Blaze, which powers up its Fire-type moves. Tailwind can be used in the final moveslot to give its teammates extra Speed if Charizard isn't capable of finishing off the opposing team. Solar Power and SolarBeam can also be used if Charizard were to be used on a sun team.</p>

    <p>While Rapid Spin support isn't necessary, Charizard will be switching in and out often due to being locked into a move, so having spinners would be useful. Once again, Wartortle is the best choice of spinner for Charizard. Offensive pressure could be used as well if you'd rather avoid using a spinner; Pokemon such as Mold Breaker Sawk and Samurott are good options in that department. Charizard also appreciates having a partner or two that could heal it from status conditions or recover its lost HP with Wish. Alomomola, Lickilicky, and Miltank, who can all use their formidable bulk to take attacks Charizard cannot take, are great partners for that role. Because Charizard would usually be used on offensive teams, having partners who could weaken the opposition beforehand, such as Samurott and Eelektross, are recommended. Finally, entry hazard support can come in handy for Charizard, as it can score many more OHKOs with entry hazards on the field. One example would be Regice, as it can be OHKOed with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock damage. Garbodor and Carracosta are good choices for entry hazard setters.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Acrobatics
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Roost
    item: Flying Gem
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Charizard is usually seen ravaging opponents with its Special Attack, Swords Dance allows Chairzard to take full advantage of its Attack stat. Swords Dance is the center point of the set, as it raises Charizard's attacks to astounishing heights. After a Swords Dance, Charizard has the power to 2HKO Alomomola and OHKO Lickilicky, Regice, and Tangela, all with its STAB Acrobatics. Furthermore, and its power is immediately increased on the first hit due to Charizard's Flying Gem. It doesn't end there: Acrobatics also reaches a phenomenal Base Power of 110 after the Flying Gem is consumed. Earthquake provides great coverage alongside Acrobatics, and Roost allows Charizard to heal itself whenever it ceases the opportunity.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Blaze is Charizard's only viable ability, as Charizard has no need to rely on sun support with this set. A Fire-type move such as Flare Blitz or Fire Punch is optional in the final moveslot if you crave another STAB. However, it doesn't offer much besides hitting Eelektross harder, as Acrobatics and Earthquake already wields near-perfect coverage together. ThunderPunch is a good option to dish out more damage to Water-type Pokemon, but Acrobatics already does a large amount to most of them, bar Carracosta.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin support is always helpful for Charizard to grant it more switch in opportunities, so a spinner such as Wartortle is a great partner. Jynx and Mold Breaker Sawk can also stop Stealth Rock from being up through Lovely Kiss and offensive pressure, respectively. Regirock can easily defeat Charizard, even when it has a Swords Dance boost. Gurdurr and Samurott are examples of Pokemon that can KO Regirock so Charizard can continue sweeping the opposing team. Status conditions can cripple it, so Heal Bell support from Pokemon such as Lickilicky and Misdreavus are recommended. Entry hazard support helps weaken the opponent to make it easier for Charizard to sweep, so entry hazard setters, such as Carracosta and Garbodor, are great partners.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass
    move 4: Flamethrower
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set truly displays Charizard's raw power, wallbreaking through teams quite easily. Even specially defensive Pokemon, such as Lickilicky and Regice, take severe damage from Charizard's attacks. Fire Blast is Charizard's main STAB move, and it also has enough power to defeat Probopass. Air Slash is Charizard's secondary STAB, and it hits Pokemon immune to Fire-type attacks, specifically Flash Fire Flareon and Rapidash. Hidden Power Grass offers good coverage against types that resist Fire, such as Rock- and Water-types. Lastly, Flamethrower cleans up weakened teams well, especially if accuracy is a dire need over power.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Blaze is superior to Solar Power on this set, as sun isn't truly needed to power up Charizard. Overheat is a very powerful alternative Fire-type move, but its Special Attack drop is undesirable, and it doesn't have much of a larger damage output than Fire Blast. Focus Blast can be used for additional coverage, but because of this set's sheer power, it is no longer needed, as all of Charizard's attacks can defeat its main threats without the aid of Focus Blast.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin support is always going to be useful with Charizard, especially when it wants to be on the field for as long as possible to inflict massive damage to the adversary. Wartortle is one of the best spinners to use with Charizard due to its ability to tank Water- and Rock-type attacks well. Once again, Mold Breaker Sawk can stop Stealth Rock from being set up through offensive pressure for Charizard. While Charizard has enough strength to not rely on sun support, having it would be great to further boost Charizard's Fire-type attacks; Volbeat and Regirock are good partners for that role. Finally, Charizard's main objective is to weaken the opposition for its allies, so teammates that can sweep up the weakened team are good to have. Sawsbuck and Exeggutor are options for that role if sun support is offered, and Dragonair and Klang work well with Charizard outside of the sun, as they can cover the other's threats well.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>One of Charizard's most interesting alternative options is Belly Drum. It's a great way to maximize Charizard's power, but it leaves Charizard vulnerable to being revenge killed, and it doesn't have many opportunities to set it up safely. Charizard could also be self dependent with setting up Sunny Day instead of relying on a partner, but it wouldn't want to waste a precious moveslot for it. Dragon Dance is an excellent way to boost its Speed and Attack, but since Acrobatics&mdash;one of Charizard's best physical moves&mdash;is illegal with Dragon Dance, Swords Dance is the preferred option. Flame Charge is another way to boost Charizard's Speed, but it is a weak STAB option.</p>

    <p>Heat Wave is a combination of good power and accuracy; however, it is not that much stronger than Flamethrower and has 10% less accuracy than it, making Flamethrower the superior STAB choice of the two. Hone Claws can help with accuracy problems as well as boosting Charizard's Attack; however, most of Charizard's inaccurate moves are special attacks, and Hone Claws boosts physical attacks, making it unnecessary. Toxic and Will-O-Wisp can allow Charizard to support its team, but it doesn't have the moveslots to fit them in. Finally, Charizard has some subpar attacking options, such as Shadow Claw, Rock Slide, and Brick Break, to consider in terms of additional coverage.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>It is difficult to outright counter Charizard due to the variety of sets it can run and its great coverage. Utilizing Stealth Rock is one of the most effective ways to weaken Charizard, so Pokemon who can successfully lay Stealth Rock on the field, such as Regirock and Golem, are good ways to weaken it. In fact, Rock-types in general are your best bet against Charizard, specifically ones who can take a Hidden Power Grass or Focus Blast. Carracosta, Golem, and Regirock are all great in dealing with Charizard.</p>

    <p>There are many Pokemon that can only defeat a specific variant of Charizard. Mantine, Flareon, Zweilous, and Dragonair can easily take on any specially offensive set Charizard has with their respective properties, but they all can be easily defeated by the Swords Dance set. Choice Scarf Pokemon have a chance of outspeeding and KOing Charizard, granted it doesn't hold a Choice Scarf itself; Rotom-S and Primeape are examples of such. While it can't take many of Charizard's attacks, Floatzel can outspeed Charizard and attack it with its Water-type moves. In contrast, Samurott cannot outspeed Charizard, but it can tank a hit and OHKO with its Water-type attacks or even go for the priority Aqua Jet. Specially defensive Wartortle can tank any of Charizard's sets bar Swords Dance and use Scald against it.</p>

    <p>There are also other ways to make it easier to defeat Charizard. Using a rain team against it is an excellent way to weaken its Fire-type moves, and Swift Swim users, such as Ludicolo, Gorebyss, and Armaldo, can then outspeed and KO Charizard with their boosted Water-type attacks. Inflicting status on Charizard is another good way to cripple it; Miltank can outspeed and paralyze a non-Choice Scarf Charizard while Alomomola, who struggles against the specially offensive sets, can take on the Swords Dance set to land a Toxic. Using Liepard to inflict parafusion on Charizard can be risky, but it's highly effective. Finally, it's especially annoying for Charizard to go against priority users due to its Stealth Rock weakness. Kangaskhan is a good example of such, as it can check it with Fake Out and Sucker Punch.</p>
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  2. Spirit

    Spirit
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    Swords Dance should be Jolly, not Timid. :p Oh, and as a rule of thumb, never merge Choice Specs/Band with Scarf, because they all play differently. Specs/Band tend to be wallbreakers, while Scarf is more along the lines of revenge killer/late-game sweeper. Good luck~
  3. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Thank you Icecream, I made the change with Jolly.
  4. Vivmeister10

    Vivmeister10

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    I feel as though Flare Blitz/Fire Punch should at least get a slash with Roost on the SD set, unless I'm unaware of situations where Fire STAB isn't recommended as opposed to Flying STAB + coverage move
  5. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Acrobatics + EQ already have pretty amazing coverage as it is, and Roost allows Charizard to last longer throughout the match. I did not add Flare Blitz as a slash solely of its nasty recoil damage; one Flare Blitz and Charizard is much easier to defeat / revenge kill, whether SR is on the field or not. Fire Punch and Fire Fang are not strong enough to add them in the set, and because, like I said, Acrobatics and EQ already have amazing coverage in NU, Charizard would rather splurge for recovery. I will add them in the AC, however. Thank you for noticing it.

    EDIT: Talked to an AC about having Roost as the 4th moveslot, and they approved; if other QC wants to chime in, then go for it! :)
  6. tennisace

    tennisace white bitches be like
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    SD set should stay as-is, it's a great set because it can't get burned. Fire STAB doesn't get any coverage that Flying/Ground misses, and roost is great because Charizard can roost on something like a Skuntank Sucker Punch and then survive one easily.

    Sunny Day set should be changed to a general Life Orb set, Sunny Day is never actually used on Zard, it's always set up by another Pokemon. Set should be Fire Blast / Air Slash / HP Grass / Roost, with Solarbeam + Solar Power in AC. Sunny Day should be in OO. Actually now that I think about it, this could even be combined with SubRoost, with HP Grass being slashed with Sub.

    SubRoost has Life Orb / Charizard as items, change that to Life Orb / Leftovers :toast:

    Choice set should have Choice Scarf as the first option, since Scarf zard outspeeds all the pesky base 95 speed scarfers and hits them super effectively. Specs should be in AC. Overheat should be added as a slash with HP Grass.
  7. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Flare Blitz/Fire Punch should be on the SD set in AC. The only thing it's actually hitting is Eelektross, but Eel is an annoying enough Pokemon that Fire STAB might be worth it on some teams.

    I agree with tennis on replacing Sunny Day and SubRoost with a general Life Orb set and adding Solar Power + Solarbeam to AC and Sunny Day to OO. It should look like this:

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass / Substitute
    move 4: Roost
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Item should be just Life Orb with Leftovers added to AC and only for SubRoost.

    Choice Specs and Choice Scarf should be separate sets as they play completely different and use different movesets and have different moves usable for AC. (Moves and AC moves aren't that different though)

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Flamethrower
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Air Slash / Hidden Power Grass
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Both Flamethrower and Fire Blast for when you need more firepower or better accuracy. (Fire Blast is better for revenge killing and Flamethrower is great for cleaning up, especially with Blaze.) Focus Blast hits the Pokemon that can take Fire Blast including Regirock, Golem, Probopass, and Lickilicky. (Chosen over HP Grass because it hits Regirock harder while beating Probopass) Air Slash hits Ludicolo harder than Fire Blast and allows Charizard to check Modest Ludicolo in the Rain, while Hidden Power Grass hits Seismitoad. As the last slot is mainly filler you can add some fun moves in AC like Tailwind, which you can use as a last ditch effort if Charizard isn't capable of cleaning up for other Pokemon to clean up instead.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass
    move 4: Flamethrower
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Hits much harder so Focus Blast isn't needed as much, Hidden Power Grass gets the job done vs Rocks and Fire Blast destroys Probopass now. Order is different because Air Slash is much more valuable for hitting Water-type Pokemon than on Scarf, since you can actually hit them hard. Flamethrower is the last move because while it can still clean up, it's not as easy on Specs as it is on Scarf. Tailwind doesn't fit in AC anymore, but Overheat does. Overheat allows you to get off massive damage on w/e comes in, but of course comes at the price of an SpA drop and the damage isn't that far off from Fire Blast.

    BTW I think the order of the sets should be: Special Attacker > Scarf > SD > Specs
  8. tennisace

    tennisace white bitches be like
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    i agree with all of ebutt's changes
  9. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    I don't know how I feel about the SD set as it is. Acrobatics is cool and it hits hard, but Fire has generally better coverage, and Flare Blitz hits harder after the initial strike, while LO Fire Punch hits only slightly less hard as Acrobatics once the Gem is used up, and does not get screwed over if someone decides to trick a Scarf.
    Fire+Dragon has perfect neutral coverage in all circumstances as well (Bar Heatran, which is not NU), and I have the feeling that deserves a mention. That, and ThunderPunch on the SD set allows Charizard to get past Alomomola.
  10. Aasgier

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    *snip*
    Oops @ quote instead of edit.
  11. tennisace

    tennisace white bitches be like
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    I was doing a spreadsheet with all the pokemon in NU from the usage stats and how the different moves were effective on them, but here's the conclusion since I got lazy: The only thing that Fire hits on the SD set that Flying + Ground doesn't are Eelektross and Rotom-S. It also gains SE coverage on Jynx (dies to every attack on that set) and Regice.

    However, with Acrobatics, you don't have the drawbacks of Fire Punch (weak) or Flare Blitz (you kill yourself quick and squander Charizard's good bulk). In addition, you lose STAB neutral coverage on every Water-type in the tier (except Lapras, how is that not PU). This means you can't 2hko things like Wartortle before they spin, and you lose a few KOs by using EQ.

    Fire + Dragon is terrible in NU, since Dragon hits literally 1 Pokemon super effective, while even Fire + Ground hits all the Rock-types and Fire-types (except Charizard itself) at least neutral.

    In conclusion, a bunch of us have used the SD set and it's fine as-is. The real reason is that Flying and Fire's coverage overlap: Fire is SE vs Bug, Grass, Ice, Steel, while Flying is SE vs Fighting, Bug, and Grass. The only Steel-types in the tier are Metang, Probopass, and Bastiodon, and only Metang is hit harder by Fire. The only Ice-types in the tier are Jynx, Regice, and Lapras, and the only one realistically hit harder by Fire is Regice, since Jynx is OHKO'd by any attack anyway and Lapras is Neutral to Fire and Flying.
  12. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Thank you to everyone who has posted. I have fixed the sets and order that fits ebeast's description. I will finish this skeleton in a bit. :)
  13. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    (Sorry for double posting) kk! Finally, I have written out this long skeleton. This is now ready to be looked over by QC! :)
  14. ebeast

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    [Overview]
    Only thing here is that Charizard doesn't really need Rapid Spin as much as you would think; I've actually never used Charizard with Spin support. The LO attacker and SD sets have Roost while the Scarf and Specs sets kind of play around it by taking advantage of Blaze. Just say that SR can wear it down if it chooses to not have Rapid Spin support.

    [Set Comments] (Special Attacker)
    Mention that HP Grass specifically hits Seismitoad, OHKOing all common variants of it (4 HP and 252 HP are cleanly OHKOed while 252HP/252SpD+ cannot take an HP Grass after being hit by any other move)

    [Additional Comments] (Special Attacker)
    No need to mention the EV spread as its generic. When talking about Rapid Spin support make sure to say that it is not required as Zard has Roost. Wartortle should be the only mon listed here for Zard. Mention what mons having entry hazard support help you KO.

    [Additional Comments] (Scarf)
    You can remove the second point, the EV spread is simple. Instead of saying Blaze is mandatory just say that Blaze lets it use Stealth Rock to its advantage by giving it a power boost after switching in twice. Add mention of Solar Power for Sun teams and Solarbeam over Focus Blast for that. Make sure you don't make Rapid Spin seem mandatory, it's really not necessary and sometimes SR can be useful to put Zard in Blaze range faster. Definitely only have Wartortle listed if you're going to list any. Mention what KOes it gets with entry hazards, otherwise remove it.

    [Additional Comments] (Swords Dance)
    No need to talk about the EV spread or the ability here. Also I noticed you keep mentioning the items here when talk of that actually belongs to Set Comments so move that over. +2 Gem Acro OHKOes Lickilicky btw, so edit that in the Set Comments. Again Rapid Spin is not mandatory and only list Wartortle.

    [Set Comments] (Specs)
    No need to mention EVs or item (even in Set Comments) as they are self explanatory. Again Rapid Spin is not mandatory and only list Wartortle.

    [Checks and Counters]
    Replace mention of Gigalith with Regirock. Add Zweilous to the list of Mantine, Flareon, and Dragonair. Replace mention of Scarf Sawk with Primeape. Add mentions of priority users, especially Kangaskhan who can check it with Fake Out and Sucker Punch. Priority is especially annoying for Zard due to its SR weakness. CM Musharna seems a little random there too. Musharna is basically capable of checking every Pokemon in the tier, but we don't have it for every analysis.

    Implement it and I can stamp it.
  15. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Thank you, ebeast. I have made all the changes you have mentioned. Also, I guess I kinda got attached to that out C&C formatting guide because it said items go in AC ^^; I'll make sure to put them in Set Comments from now on. :)
  16. tennisace

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  17. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Thank you, tennisace, I implemented the check in. Only one more check to be written! (Idk why I'm excited about writing all this out.. :()
  18. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    Just a quick thought, but is it possible to make a mention or even a slash of using Focus Blast on the Special Attacker set rather than Hidden Power Grass / Substitute (I use it on mine)? I only say this because look at what Focus Blast can do on stuff that Charizard's other attacks can't:

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 239-283 (58.29 - 69.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 224-265 (52.83 - 62.5%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 218-257 (59.89 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bastiodon: 380-452 (117.28 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 322-385 (99.38 - 118.82%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 320-378 (91.16 - 107.69%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cradily: 283-335 (75.26 - 89.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 161-192 (33.96 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Relicanth: 426-504 (105.44 - 124.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    So Focus Blast pretty much kills the same things you'd be using Hidden Power Grass for but it also does significant damage to other notable defensive threats that can be troublesome for Charizard to get passed without it. The only threat that HP Grass is good for is Seismitoad, but it's already hit for good enough damage by Air Slash:

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 122-146 (29.46 - 35.26%) -- possible 4HKO

    That specially defensive of a Seismitoad isn't that common anyway, so you're looking more at like:

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 179-212 (43.23 - 51.2%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 191-225 (46.13 - 54.34%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO

    Which is pretty sweet still.

    Thanks for considering!
  19. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    I can mention Focus Blast, but as for adding it as a slash, I'll wait for more QC input. But from my perspective,some of the calculations you have made are slightly irreverent; I have rarely seen Relicanth, Bastiodon, not even Munchlax to a certain degree. Also, having Substitute as a slash is pretty useful, as it can get past paralysis or toxic when predicted correctly, which can really hinder Charizard. I gtg now, but I'll add Focus Blast to AC and wait to see what QC has to say about slashing it. Thank you! :)
  20. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    I only included the three that you've mentioned only because they do exist (Relicanth is the only one I have rarely seen personally), they can pose issues, and they are all manhandled by Focus Blast, with the exception of Munchlax taking a 3HKO from it (2HKO if Munchlax takes little prior damage thanks to no Leftovers recovery). The more relevant calculations are that of Audino, Probopass, Lickilicky, Regirock, and Carracosta, all of whom can easily be a pain in the ass, which is what Focus Blast is there for.

    Of course Substitute is useful, I'm not telling you to drop it, but Focus Blast deserves a good mention and, depending on QC, a slash. In fact, I believe it should be Focus Blast / Substitute and Hidden Power Grass in comments for hitting Seismitoad and Carracosta more reliably. I can't really think of anything that HP Grass is good for other than those two, since Air Slash will likely already 2HKO pretty much any other Water-type with the added benefit of flinching, Ground-types are dealt with handily via Fire Blast (same deal as Air Slash, it's gonna be a 2HKO or OHKO either way), and Rock-types are smashed by Focus Blast already.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong about HP Grass, because at the moment, I don't see it being better than Focus Blast for coverage purposes.
  21. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    HP Grass is the main option over Focus Blast because it's already 2HKOing Regirock (252 HP/0 SpD is the only real spread used) and hitting Seismitoad for a OHKO is kind of important as it's a pretty common Pokemon. Lickilicky and Audino are lesser used and mainly found on more defensive based teams (Audino is exclusive to stall) and Lickilicky is worn down very quickly as well. HP Grass is also more reliable than Focus Blast due to its perfect accuracy. Focus Blast is still a good option so I agree that it should be added to AC.

    QC screw tennis/3 Approved
  22. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom
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    Focus Blast is good against Normals like Thick Fat Miltank, Lickilicky, and Munchlax while nailing Rock-types, but HP Grass's reliability allows it to KO Golem and Seismitoad without any hesitation, as well as being Zard's only 100% accurate move. Obviously it is best on a LO set as opposed to a Choice set, as being locked into a 70 base power move with poor coverage is not something a 4x SR weak mon would want.

    Dammit ebeast :P
  23. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Thank you, ebeast, for the QC check. I'll have this written out as soon as I can. :3
  24. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    (Sorry for double posting) I have fully written out this analysis, and it's ready for that final look from QC! :)
  25. Raseri

    Raseri wut
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    on every set I'd like Mold Breaker Sawk mentioned because it can stop stealth rock really easily

    Also on the SD set you mention Fire Fang as an option, I think you meant Fire Punch :)

    Also specially defensive Wartortle in c&c, it can tank every set except SD really well and Scald in return.

    after that 3/3 this is good :)

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