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Charizard [QC 3/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by shnen, Apr 26, 2012.

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  1. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Yeah so I finally got this up, unsure on a couple of things but that's where you guys come in!!
    yeah I know the skelly is kinda short but I'll expand on it in the actual write-up
    [​IMG]
    [Overview]
    • The original Fire dragon
    • Although in some tiers usage of Charizard is a sure-fire sign of a noob, he's a beast in NU
    • Can either take advantage of sun or go without it
    • Despite his Special Attack being his most obvious stat to abuse, he can also run a nice physical set (which I'm unsure of, so up to QC members)
    • Terrible typing, obviously that SR weakness is a real hindrance
    • Faces competition from Magmortar, better Speed, Solar Power, Roost and STAB Air Slash set him apart
    • Roost especially is great as it helps him stick around for longer and goes towards managing SR.
    • Spin support is completely vital.
    • He can however be used without it, using Pokemon to get rid of Golem such as Bullet Seed Cacturne, CB Pinsir and CB Rampardos.
    • Has forced a lot more usage of Pokemon such as Altaria, Cinccino, and Flareon to counter him
    • Generally the best offensive Fire-type in NU
    • Blaze is a great last-ditch thing to kill some mon as Fire Blasts are insanely powered with it.
    • Very fast for NU so can be hard to revenge, outspeeds majority of tier,
    • Blaze lets him nuke outta sun, Solar Power lets him nuke in it.
    • Be careful with him, as he's pretty frail and has bad weaknesses. If you do, he will smash shit.

      [SET]
      name: Solar Power
      move 1: Fire Blast
      move 2: Air Slash
      move 3: SolarBeam / Focus Blast
      move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Grass
      item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
      ability: Solar Power
      nature: Timid / Modest
      evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

      [SET COMMENTS]
    • This set is built to be used in conjunction with sun. In said weather, Charizard basically fires off massively powered Fire Blasts until he dies - Charizard really doesn't last long.
    • Fire Blast is a goddamn nuke in sun, letting him kill so much stuff - basically, unless the Pokemon has Flash Fire or Cloud Nine they're going to be taking a massive massive hit.
    • Air Slash hits things like Flareon and Altaria harder than Fire Blast (if you're not running hp ice of course)
    • Both SolarBeam and Focus Blast hit Rock-types, Focus Blast hits Cloud Nine Lickilicky and Thick Fat Miltank harder, whilst Solarbeam hits Golem and Water-types harder. Up to personal preference really, Solarbeam gets the first slash as it lets you run HP Ice without being walled by Water-types.
    • HP Ice hits Altaria, Grass hits Water-types and Golem. Grass should be used with Focus Blast, Ice with SolarBeam.
    • Choice Scarf lets Charizard outspeed basically everything, and stops him from being revenged by threats such as Scarf Rotom-S, Electabuzz, and non-Scarf Cinccino, whereas with Choice Specs equipped everything in NU is 2hkoed by the right move, although this leaves him open to the aforementioned threats. The EVs are simple and obvious. 4 Def is to come in on SR twice.

      [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • LO can be used if you want, as can Flamethrower.
    • Two obvious support that he wants from teammates: Sunny Day support and Rapid Spin.
    • Pokemon such as Volbeat and Regirock can provide Sunny Day.
    • Pokemon such as Cryogonal and Wartortle can provide Spin.
    • Torkoal can provide both.
    • Use other Sun abusers, Sawsbuck, Victreebel etc
    • Can be paired with Magmortar for a double dragon style thing.
    • Can also work without sun but faces tough competition from Magmortar, and SolarBeam is obviously not usable outside of sun

      [SET]
      name: Life Orb Roost
      move 1: Fire Blast
      move 2: Air Slash
      move 3: Roost
      move 4: Substitute / Focus Blast
      item: Life Orb
      ability: Blaze
      nature: Timid
      evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

      [SET COMMENTS]
    • Fire Blast and Air Slash are his best STAB moves, and hit really hard.
    • Roost lets him recover of SR. sub and LO damage.
    • Charizard can come in and get a sub on many common things, such as Tangela, Vileplume, Cacturne etc, and behind it can sweep an opponents team. Sub is also useful to help with Sucker Punchers such as Absol and Skuntank, and also means that Cacturne can’t do shit to him. It can also be used as a panic button: get Charizard in, sub down to Blaze, then hopefully nuke whatever is giving you troubles with massively powered Fire Blast.
    • Focus Blast gives him coverage on things like Regirock and Golem, as well as Lickilicky. I much prefer Sub but apparently Focus Blast is legit?? QC’s opinion please.
    • LO is for dat power boost and lets him get into Blaze, I’ve found lefties to be mehhh.

      [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • You could drop to just outspeed base 95s I guess but the bulk isn’t going to be doing too much.
    • HP Grass>Focus Blast although it’s pretty meh
    • Lefties can also be run, as can Flamethrower but both have problems with lack of power.
    • Roost is illegal with Solar Power, so you have to run Blaze (although Blaze is boss anyway)
    • Roost helps manage SR, so spin support isn't as needed as above.
    • Same teammates as last set really other than sun, things to get through bulky water-types e.g. Eggy and spinners e.g. Cryo.

      [SET]
      name: Swords Dance
      move 1: Swords Dance
      move 2: Flare Blitz
      move 3: Earthquake
      move 4: Roost / Rock Slide
      item: Life Orb / Leftovers
      ability: Blaze
      nature: Jolly
      evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

      [SET COMMENTS]
    • This set is very different to the other sets. It allows him to kill Flareon and Altaria (if using Rock Slide) and can make a nice late-game cleaner.
    • Swords Dance is his best physical set-up move due to his already great Speed and the nature of this set (that being cleaning+luring)
    • The power of Flare Blitz is necessary to make up for his meh Attack, and it is his best STAB move.
    • Earthquake provides coverage on Rock-types and Fire-types (if running roost)
    • Roost provides longevity and lets him get rid of the horrible recoil from LO+Flare Blitz, whereas Rock Slide hits Altaria and Charizard, amongst a few others.
    • LO provides much-needed power, however if you feel that the excessive recoil is undesirable then Leftovers can also work.

      [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Again, you can drop some Speed.
    • Thunderpunch over Roost for water-types etc
    • Solar Power doesn’t affect physical Attack and so is useless on this set.
    • DD is also a viable option, however this set is more used for luring and cleaning than straight-up sweeping, and Charizard really needs the extra attack boost.
    • Spinners make great teammates as always, go for cryo.
    • Stuff to tank scarf electrics such as licki, camerupt and regi is appreciated, as is a byss check who can set up on this
    • Eggy is a great teammate as it takes out the stuff that this set has issues with, Quaggy, Alomomola etc and can smash things with Specs Leaf Storm.
    • Hazards, use garbodor/cacturne for spikes and of course rocks

      [Other Options]
    • Can also set up its own sun, obviously not with a Choice item. Sunny Day / Fire Blast / Air Slash / Solarbeam @ Heat Rock
    • Belly Drum
    • CB for luring I guess??
    • Ancientpower for Flareon/Altaria/other zard or HP Rock if not using a HP already.
    • Flame Charge can work with Sun.
    • SubPunch can break Licki I guess…?
    • Overheat on Choice sets
    • Aerial Ace could work on physical sets but doesn’t provide too much additional coverage.
    • Mixed set with EQ/Rock Slide can lure in common 'counters' and then sweep

      [Checks and Counters]
    • Mostly differs based on sets.
    • SR obviously is great against any set.
    • Samurott also beats Charizard with Aqua Jet.
    • Solar Power set basically has no ‘counters’ as everything dies to the right move +rocks so prediction is your best bet
    • Flareon can beat Scarf sets/Specs without rocks
    • Cloud Nine Altaria comes in on anything but HP Ice
    • Cloud Nine Lickilicky is decent but sucks
    • For Roost set, many more: specially bulky things such as Dragonair, Lickilicky, Flareon, Altaria, Muk, Grumpig et al beat it
    • Regirock can come in on stuff that isn't super-effective (Golem is 2hkoed)
    • Corsola and Omanyte can avoid the 2HKO from EVERYTHING Charizard can throw at it under the sun other than SolarBeam / Focus Blast and Recover health back (in corsola's case)
    • Quaggy destroys physical set, as does Alomomola and Omanyte.
    • For offensive checks, Cinccino kills him, especially as Scarf can outspeed Scarf zard and still keep adamant.
    • Rapidash can switch in on Fire attacks and Wild Charge, although fears Air Slash from Specs/sun Scarf.
    • Stuff like LO Cryo; fast shit that can hurt it.
    • Mortar can take a hit from Roost set and kill with T-bolt
    • Scarf electric-types
  2. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Ok, here I am, the SD Zard man!

    Anyways, stress that entry hazards really help SD Zard (it doesn't have that same power now). Garbodor is an excellent partner. Also, mention that it's better mid to late-game than the beginning. You already covered Eggy, so that's cool. Then there are the obvious teammates like Lickilicky and Cryogonal. You can also mention that Roost is almost always preferred over Rock Slide. Like, only use Rock Slide if you really need Charizard to beat those Pokemon.

    What team support you have is really important for the SD set, as obvious as it is.

    The Solar Power set is pretty straightforward and I haven't used the LO Roost set, so no comments there.

    EDIT: @TropiOUs Roost does help a lot. I haven't been in a single situation where I felt I needed Rock Slide, or Thunderpunch for that matter, because my team gave Zard such good support. With proper teamsupport, you don't need a coverage move and Roost should stay as the first slash. He can add Thunderpunch to AC for whatever reason you suggest though.
  3. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Does a Sunny Day set merit discussion? Charizard may make a pretty good lead so long as you don't put it in the first team spot, and base 100 Speed is pretty good. Sunny Day / Fire Blast / Air Slash / Solarbeam with Heat Rock sounds delish. If it's not good enough due to the x4 SR weakness, then an OO mention will do I suppose.
  4. TROP

    TROP This is it, baby. Hold me.
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    A mention of Dragon Pulse somewhere could be nice, as it allows Charizard to still be able to hit Altaria hard if he picks Hp Grass by 2hkoing it on the switch with Stealth Rock damage, but noting that it is illegal with Solar Power, only non sun Charizard should be using it anyways.

    And for the SD set a mention of Thunderpunch somewhere would be nice too as it allows Charizard to hit slower Water-types hard and don't kill himself in the process. Samurott won't kill you with Aqua Jet unless rocks that should be away if trying to use SD Charizard, it also can 2HKO Alomomola after Stealth Rock damage if Thunderpunch is used with a Life Orb as item. And because I was using SD Charizard most of the month because of having fun beating its usual checks, I would also suggest Exper Belt as it has fairly decent super effective coverage and doesn't kill himself as fast if he is using Flare Bliz while still scoring decent damage against most of his targets.

    Show Hide
    Also Roost doesn't help SD Zard at all, another coverage move is better on its place most of time, but you can ignore this if you want. I would prefer this over the current set
    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Thunderpunch/ Rock Slide
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    With either Ebelt as AC or slash as it was what I used most of time and when not dying because of random shit it was always effective when it managed to set up.
  5. fade5

    fade5

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    Rapidash deserves a mention as a check and one of the closest things to an offensive counter Charizard has: it's immune to Fire Blast (thanks to Flash Fire), can take an Air Slash (I'm not sure of the damage though, can someone do damage calcs?), and can outspeed and retaliate with Wild Charge thanks to a base 105 speed vs Charizard's base 100, though Charizard can outspeed Rapidash if Zard's scarfed and Rapidash isn't.
  6. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    [Overview]
    • Emphasize Roost a bit; talk about how it helps differentiate Charizard from other Fire-types and helps it with the SR problem a bit.
    • Charizard is still useful even without a Rapid Spin user... I've used Charizard without any Rapid Spin support or a Pokemon such as CB Rampardos. Obviously, Charizard has a much harder time doing anything, but it's still pretty effective.
    • Talk about how useful Blaze can be sometimes.
    • Mention that Charizard is very fast so sometimes it can be hard to revenge-kill him.

    [Life Orb Roost]
    • Mention that Substitute is very helpful for making Charizard go down to Blaze range.

    [Life Orb Roost AC]
    • Mention that this set doesn't NEED Rapid Spin support as much as a Choice set because of Roost.

    [Checks and Counters]
    • Mention that having Stealth Rock up will REALLY help against Charizard.
    • Add Samurott and Rapidash to the list of checks.
    • Add Rock-types to the list of checks if Charizard doesn't have SolarBeam / HP Grass / Focus Blast
    • Mention that Corsola and Omanyte can avoid the 2HKO from EVERYTHING Charizard can throw at it under the sun other than SolarBeam/Focus Blast and Recover health back. (Corsola isn't that good, but whatever. Also, Omanyte can't recover health back, but it can beat Swords Dance Charizard.)


    Also, don't do this in the write-up: "Same teammates as last set". We never know if in the future Life Orb Roost may be the superior set and it makes it easier to edit if it doesn't have any mentions like that.

    Anyways, this looks good: QC Approve 1/3
  7. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    updated
    also lol DTC I wasn't going to put that in the write-up, I just got lazy when writing the skelly :p
  8. Steamroll

    Steamroll resident zombie
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    QC APPROVED 2/3

    Stampy, Stampy
  9. WillSO

    WillSO

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    Mixed set in OO. Earthquake hits Flareon for good damage, Fire Blast and Air Slash for STABs.
  10. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    added in
  11. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet
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    Remember that it's SolarBeam. ;)

    QC APPROVED (3/3)
  12. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    cool, will try to write this up when I have the time
    also I thought it changed like FirePunch and ThunderPunch, evidently not though, thanks for the reminder!
  13. Hammdog

    Hammdog

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    Has BellyZard become extinct? I had plenty of fun with it.
  14. steviestar

    steviestar

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    Bellyzard is pretty awful with the lack of pinch berries and the prevalence of sucker punch.
  15. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Reassign this please.
  16. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    ok I'm taking this back, should write in weekend/over half term :D
  17. Zebraiken

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