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Charizard [QC 3/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Cherub Agent, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 6, 2009


    - Charizard is my favourite Pokemon
    - Practically one of, if not the most powerful Pokemon in the tier
    - Can now use Roost in conjunction with Solar Power
    - Typing is a mixed bag (only downside is 4x SR weak, but spinners and Roost can help with this) and has many good resistances
    - pretty great stats actually, very fast, very strong, not frail either
    - mostly goes special, but can pull off effective physical sets (especially with quagsire gone)
    - doesn't face competition from magmortar anymore; charizard is the best offensive fire-type in the tier
    - almost always requires a spinner, which is annoying, as the ghosts in this tier tend to be much better than the spinners

    name: Sunny Day
    move 1: Sunny Day
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: SolarBeam
    item: Leftovers / Heat Rock
    ability: Solar Power
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


    - Charizard's most powerful set
    - Stacks a bunch of boosts in a single turn: 120 BP, Sun, Solar Power; Fire Blast = 324 BP STAB move
    - In other words Fire Blast is the main move that will be used, as it basically doesnt care about things resisting it.
    - In the Sun it's more powerful than Air Slash against bulky waters
    - Sunny Day obviously gives you the Sun and SP boost, and loses your Water weakness (but also your Fire resistance)
    - However some bulkier things like Regirock and Alomola can stomach a Fire Blast, so SolarBeam takes them out.
    - It finally gained Roost as a tutor move again, so that REALLY helps with Zard's SR weakness and Solar Power recoil. It can also remove Charizard's Electric weakness, give it an Ice resistance, and cut its Rock weakness in half. Just... watch out for Earthquake :/


    - the EVs are obviously very simple: max Speed is to outrun Pokemon such as Sawsbuck (without Chlorophyll). Fun fact is that Zard can also survive a LO Double Edge from Sawsbuck at full health, max SpA, and the Defense EVs give Zard to SR switchins if its not Sunny
    - Lefties really helps with Solar Power recoil. Heat Rock is another option if Charizard is on a dedicated Sun team. Another option is to use Flame Plate, if you want Charizard to only rely on Roost. Flame Plate makes you noticeably stronger, as Fire Blast will be your main move, and can bluff choice early game. But Lefties is normally more useful for survivability.
    - teammates are various: a Spinner isn't REQUIRED per se, as Zard has Roost, but Zard obviously benefits immensely from one. Trouble is they suck; Armaldo is probably the best now, and Wartortle is bulky but weak.
    - alternatively you can simply prevent SR from being set up at all. Bullet Seed users, CB Rampardos can easily break down Golem and Carracosta, the most popular SRers. Natu can reflect it
    - Zard doesn't neccessarily have to function on a dedicated Sun team. However, since it deals so much destruction, the Speed boost that Chlorophyllers get allows them to mop up the mess Charizard leaves behind. Examples are Sawsbuck, Victreebel, Shiftry and Exeggutor.
    - Marvel Scale Dragonair can actually counter this, you might want a really strong heavy hitter to take it out (that attacks from the physical side). Emboar is a good choice, as it also benefits from Sun. Charizard resists Klang's weaknesses and can setup on Dragonair.

    name: SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Air Slash
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


    - Charizard can easily force switches, which gives him ample time to set up a Substitute, after which he can simply sweep a team (and it obviously lets him avoid Sucker Punch/status etc.)
    - Roost lets you bring back the health you lose from SR, LO, Substitute, attacks, etc. Also can negate the weaknesses that come with the Flying-type
    - Fire Blast and Air Slash are simply your STAB moves, both very powerful
    - Solar Power, while legal, is not a recommended ability. You'd simply lose health far too quickly
    - Life Orb is needed not only for the increased power, but also because it can speed up the process of getting Charizard into Blaze range


    - Focus Blast is an option to kill Rock-types such as Carracosta, Golem, and Regirock, and is perfectly legitimate. Charizard depends on Substitute for a clean sweep though
    - Leftovers can heal more HP, but the lack of power is definetly noticeable
    - obviously teammates that can dispose of Rock-types are excellent. Nukes such as Specs Exeggutor or Choice Band Sawk can OHKO practically any Rock-type they encounter
    - Charizard may have Roost, but since it also has Substitute and Life Orb, it's even more vulnerable to passive damage (i.e. SR). Spinner is definetly recommended, as are the afore mentioned Sturdy breakers
    - Cinccino can outspeed and OHKO through Sub. Steel-types such as Klang and Probopass can handle it and set up.

    name: Choice
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Focus Blast / SolarBeam
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    ability: Solar Power / Blaze
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


    - Choiced Charizard works best on a dedicated Sun team
    - This is easily the most powerful Pokemon in NU, and perhaps the most powerful one in the game that doesn't requre any set up
    - 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Lickilicky (+SpDef) : 102.12% - 120.52%
    - Honestly, just click the Fire Blast button and watch HP bars drain like there's no tomorrow. Resistances have literally no effect, so you won't be using the other moves much.
    - Honestly though, this Zard won't exactly be lasting for a long time
    - Air Slash is a good secondary STAB move if you want to scout for bulky waters
    - HP Grass kills off Water- and Rock-types, wheres Ice is your best move againt Altaria and other Dragon-types.
    - Focus Blast is a very powerful move for Rock-types, but is not spammable due to its terrible accuracy, and this Charizard really can't afford to miss
    - SolarBeam on the other hand is just as powerful as Focus Blast and hits both Water- and Rock- types very hard. Easily the better option (but only in the Sun obviously)
    - Sorry if that isnt clear: it's either SolarBeam + HP Ice, OR Focus Blast + HP Grass


    - You MUST have a Rapid Spinner on your team. Armaldo, Torkaol and Wartortle are the only viable ones, but there's crapmons like Sandshrew, Tentacool and Baltoy if they happen to fit your team's needs. Sturdy breakers are even more recommended here
    - The other support he needs is Sun. Volbeat can go for the priority Sun, whereas Regirock is a far more sturdy and durable supporter.
    - Also likes other Sun abusers on his side: Victreebel and Sawsbuck are the most powerful
    - Choice Scarf lets him outspeed basically everything, and is still very powerful. Specs is simply for pure carnage, but is now much easier to revenge kill. Specs however is recommended as Sun teams already have fastmons in Chlorophyll, whereas Charizard is more of a wallbreaker

    name: Physical
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Roost / Dragon Claw
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Blaze
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe


    - Zard's SD set is perfectly viable
    - He may only have 84 Attack, but being able to double it in a turn is invaluable, and his great Speed and good typing help as well
    - Is a great lategame cleaner that can lure out common counters such as Flareon and Altaria and take them out (the latter only with Rock Slide)
    - Flare Blitz is a powerful STAB move
    - Earthquake hits Rock- and Fire- types that resist Fire
    - Roost is recommended to offset SR, LO and Flare Blitz recoil, but Dragon Claw can be used to KO Altaria, and other Charizard at +2, the only common Pokemon that resist the Fire/Ground moves. Dragon Claw also gets the super effective hit on Shelgon, Dragonair and Fraxure


    - Outrage is a more powerful Dragon move, but since it's un STAB Charizard won't be doing much damage
    - Rock Slide hits other Charizard and Altaria, while also hitting Mantine. ThunderPunch gets the super effective hit on Mantine, Charizard and other Water types, but misses out on Altaria
    - ThunderPunch is another usable move for Water-types, but still won't scratch Alomomola
    - Dragon Dance can make Charizard much harder to revenge kill, but he's already fast and prefers the extra power given by Swords Dance
    - Life Orb is needed for power, but the continuous flow of recoil can be devastating. Leftovers is a perfectly viable relacement, as Charizard is boosting his Attack anyway
    - Rapid Spinner, Sturdy breakers, same old same old
    - Grass-types once again make excellent teammates; Exeggutor and Serperior can scare off any Water- or Rock-type
    - Not as powerful as the other sets, so it really likes entry hazards. Cacturne can set up Spikes and scare away Water- and Rock-types, while Garbodor is a sturdier choice when it comes to Spikes. SR is SR, all teams have it...

    [Other Options]

    <p>Perhaps the most interesting other option that Charizard has is the classic '99 Belly Drum set. It requires massive support to use effectively, but the payoff can be enormous, especially now that Salac Berry has been released. However, a metagame filled with priority moves, Stealth Rock and hard hitters mean that BellyZard can no longer function as effectively as it used to.</p>

    <p>Flamethrower can be used over Fire Blast on any of the specially oriented sets, as the perfect accuracy can save you. However, Fire Blast deals more damage in the long run (102 BP vs. 95 BP), and Charizard likes to hit as hard as possible. Overheat is another special STAB move; unfortunately Charizard is one of the few Fire-types that cannot use it effectively. The hit-and-run strategy asociated with Overheat clashes horribly with Charizard as a Pokemon: it cannot afford to be switching in and out due to it's massive Stealth Rock weakness. Charizard is a Pokemon that should try and stay in for as long as possible, and attempt a continuous sweep under the sun with Fire Blast. The last viable STAB move that Charizard can use is Flame Charge, as the ability to outspeed Choice Scarf Pokemon is very much appreciated. However, Charizard has trouble sparing a moveslot for it.</p>

    <p>Charizard has a wide movepool, both special and physical. Charizard has the option of going mixed with Earthquake to dispose of Flareon, but this requires splitting EVs for a rather rarely-seen Pokemon, and generally is not worth it. Focus Punch can be used to dispose of Lickilicky and Audino, but requires perfect prediction to pull it off efficiently. Quick Attack is mentioned only because it should never be used; Charizard is fast enough that it should never have to rely on a priority move, especially one as weak as Quick Attack. On the special side, Charizard can use Dragon Pulse, as it has perfect coverage alongside its Fire-type STAB moves. However, Dragons are quite rare in NU, and repeated Fire Blasts are usually enough to take down Fraxure and Shelgon. Dragon Pulse does see more merit against Altaria and Dragonair however. Finally, Charizard can use other Hidden Power types, such as Rock (for other Charizards), Electric (Charizard's best move against Mantine).</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>It should be clear that the most efficient way of countering Charizard is by keeping Stealth Rock up. Every time Charizard switches in it will lose half of its HP, which means that any decently powered STAB move should be able to bring Charizard down. It will often have to Roost as soon as it comes in when Stealth Rock is up; use this turn to your advantage to hit it hard, or to bring in something that can outspeed and OHKO Charizard. However, despite Charizard's awesome firepower, it's not without a few hard counters.</p>

    <p>Rock-types in general are good switchins to Charizard. They resist both of Charizards STABs and can always OHKO with their own, furthermore, most pack enough Defense to be able to shrug off boosted Earthquake's from the physical set. They do have to beware of Hidden Power Grass and Focus Blast however. Flareon is also an extremely effective counter. An immunity to Charizard's incredibly powerful Fire-type STAB moves, and excellent Special Defense mean that Charizard will be unable to break through the hellcat. Flareon can either whittle Charizard down with Toxic, abuse Charizard's own Sun to hit it with its own Fire-type moves, or simply KO it with Hidden Power Rock. The mono-attacking set can cheerfully sponge Charizard's attacks thanks to its high Special Defense, Eviolite, and resistance to Fire- and Grass-type moves. It can set up multiple Dragon Dances, Rest off the damage it takes, and eventually take Charizard out with Outrage. Mantine has massive Special Defense, a resistance to Fire, and is neutral to Grass courtesy of its Flying-typing. It can then proceed to wash Charizard away with its STAB Water-type moves. Altaria is in the same boat: it resists the Fire / Grass/ Fighting combination and can easily shrug off Air Slash with its great Special Defense. It must beware of Hidden Power Ice however. Regirock can take Charizard's STAB moves with ease, especially if it's using a specially defensive set, and will always OHKO Charizard with its STAB moves. It must beware of SolarBeam however. Grumpig isn't weak to any of Charizard's commonly used moves, and gains a pseudo-resistance to Fire thanks to its ability, Thick Fat. Its excellent Special Defense allows it to shrug off Charizard's attacks, but it can only OHKO in return if it uses Power Gem. Alomomola gets a special mention as being a perfect counter to the physical set, but will promptly fall to the specially based sets.</p>

    <p>However, many of the aforementioned Pokemon are rarely used, as the NU tier is predominantly physically based. For this reason, special walls are an uncommon sight. Therefore, should you lack a counter to Charizard, the best way to prevent it from sweeping you is to carry at least one check to it in your team. Cinccino will always outspeed Charizard (even if Adamant), and can KO it with either Rock Blast or Tail Slap without the need for Stealth Rock. Tauros can outspeed Charizard and bring it down with either Rock Climb or Rock Slide. Swellow is another fine offensive check: it's another Pokemon that will always outspeed Charizard, and it can KO it with a Guts boosted Facade or Brave Bird. Zebstrika and Electrode fall into the same category and can fry Charizard with its STAB Electric-type moves. Floatzel will also always outspeed Charizard, even if it has a neutral nature, and can take it out with its STAB Water-type moves. Simpour's 101 base Speed allows it to outspeed Charizard and OHKO it with either Surf or Hydro Pump. Another option is to use Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Exeggutor and Victreebel, as they can abuse the Sun that normally accompanies Charizard and KO it with their Psychic and Sludge Bomb respectively. Alternatively, they can simply put Charizard to sleep with Sleep Powder.</p>

    <p>Seeing as Charizard is faster than a good portion of the NU metagame, you may have to resort to using Choice Scarf Pokemon in order to deal with it. Rotom-S is an extremely common user of Choice Scarf, and can force Charizard out by threatening it with Volt Switch. This means that Charizard will again be forced to lose 50% of its health upon re-entering the battlefield, and the Rotom-S player will have gained momentum. Haunter also often uses Choice Scarf, and can threaten to OHKO Charizard with Thunderbolt. A final option is to use priority moves. One can prey upon Charizard's weakness to Aqua Jet with Pokemon such as Carracosta and Samurott. The former can come in on either Fire Blast or Air Slash, and the latter can play guessing games with the Charizard user, either by going for the kill with Aqua Jet or by setting up a Swords Dance to threaten the rest of the Charizard user's team. Sucker Punch users can also KO Charizard after Stealth Rock; of these, Absol and Skuntank are easily the best options. They have to careful however when facing the SubRoost set, as Charizard can protect itself from Sucker Punch by using Substitute. </p>
  2. shnen

    shnen שוני
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 13, 2011
    • Mention how it can be used with pokemon such as CB rampardos or Bullet Seed Torterra instead of a spinner to keep rocks of the field.
    • I guess flamethrower probably deserves AC mentions in most of the sets
    • Mention in Checks and counters that absol only beats non sub zard, otherwise it's the old 50/50 guessing game.
    • There are no square brackets around hidden power type if I recall correctly, so it's just 'Hidden Power Ice' as opposed to 'Hidden Power [Ice]', although do correct me if I am wrong.
    • Remove Flame Plate from the set comments of the first set, it doesn't have it ?_?
    • Add samurott to checks and counters, aqua jet does a shitton.
    • Add Grumpig and Altaria to Checks and counters, they can take a fair amount of hits (aside from hp ice for altaria), and Altaria especially has cloud nine.
    • Add that Alomomola hard counters the physical set in Checks and Counters.

    Not too sure on Dragon Claw/Outrage to be honest, I'l let other QC members weigh in.
  3. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang http://puu.sh/mvR3Z.png
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 14, 2010
    • Add Swellow as a revenge killer to every Charizard without a Choice Scarf or Substitute up since it outspeeds and easily OHKO's with a Guts-boosted Facade.
    • Change the "Fire Blast" in the Regirock part of Checks and Counters to "Focus Blast", since I assume that's what you meant.
    As for the Dragon-attack versus Rock Slide question, I personally always thought that a Rock attack on Charizard was pretty pointless considering that most of the targets you'd hit with it (Aerodactyl, Archeops etc), aren't even in the tier. A +2 Leftovers Dragon Claw also OHKO's both 0/4 Charizard and specially defensive Altaria after Stealth Rocks while doing a lot more to Dragons, and should replace Rock Slide in my opinion. I'm not sure about Outrage, but it gets some notable KO's such as physically defensive Altaria and 0/4 Charizard even without Stealth Rocks (assuming Life Orb), but Dragon Claw seems like a better option for the most part.

    I also agree with shnen's changes.
  4. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    May 8, 2011
    • Mention Rock-types in general in checks and counters. They wall SubRoost, can switch into a choiced Fire Blast / Air Slash / HP Ice, some have the ability to tank a +2 SD, and kill and set-up SR on Charizard. Carracosta is especially notable for being able to tank a +2 LO Earthquake and for having priority Aqua Jet.
    • Mention specially bulky Dragon-types in checks and counters. Dragonair for example walls Charizard REALLY well and can set-up a DD or two.
    • Slash Heat Rock in the first set. Having 7 turns to abuse sun is amazing and there are always good Chlorophyll Pokemon out there to abuse the sun if you die such as Exeggutor. It's also good for powering up Fire-type moves for Pokemon such as Fire Punch CB Eelektross, allowing them to KO certain threats easier. The lack of Leftovers is really annoying sometimes, though, especially with Solar Power damaging you every turn.
    • Change the order of the SolarBeam / Focus Blast slashes in the choice set. Choice Specs Charizard is still perfectly viable outside of the sun and Focus Blast and Air Slash do enough damage to Rock- and Water-types, respective.

    This analysis looks pretty good. Regarding Dragon Claw / Rock Slide, I'd go with Dragon Claw so you can hit Dragon-types such as Fraxure harder. I personally don't use either of the moves and just use Roost but some people like the coverage I guess.
  5. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    Jul 6, 2009
    Already mentioned bulky dragons DTC in C&C, it's in the first line.

    But yeah, I completely agree with all your changes guys. Thanks a lot; I believe they're all implemented.

    This analysis will be on hold for 1 week, as I'll be on holiday. Zeb knows the situation.
  6. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Aug 2, 2010
    I know you'll be gone, but I just want to suggest/point out a couple things.
    • You mention Marvel Scale Dragonite in the first set, wich should be Dragonair.
    • Mantine can usually counter it. Other than Cloud Nine Altaria, it is the only thing in NU that can (sometimes) avoid a 2HKO from a Sunny Weather Solar Power Specs boosted Fire Blast, and it also gets Surf.
    • You spelled Torkoal as "Torkaol" once, but I don't think that matters too much.
    • Fire Blast boosted by Solar Power does more damage to bulky waters than Air Slash. ((120*1.5*1.5*1.5)/2 = 202.5 BP, 75*1.5*1.5 = 168.75 BP)
  7. Omicron

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    Feb 17, 2010
    Charizard also gets access to ThunderPunch, so maybe a mention of that in the AC of the physical set?
  8. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    Jul 6, 2009
    Updated lol, it's literally half an hour before I leave. Nice catches guys
  9. Raseri

    Raseri dabbin
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    Aug 4, 2007
    mention how it is really difficult to spin since the ghosts are a lot better than the spinners

    Other than that I think it is a good overiew

    I don't have any complaints here either.

    I'd like to see lefties as a secondary item slash, since it can be useful if zard needs to play defensively

    Maybe move it below physical? I'm not a fan of choiced mons that are 4x weak to SR.

    looks good to me.

    mention it has the pitifully weak Quick Attack if you need priority! As well as Overheat for immediate power
    Other than that you covered everything well

    [Checks and Counters]
    Don't call Mantine bad :) its pretty good

    Otherwise [QC]1/3[/qc]
  10. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
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    Jul 6, 2009
    OK, added that. However, I'm not ENTIRELY sure about swapping the places of Choice and physical... Choice just wrecks on Sun teams, whereas physical, while a good set, just doesn't have that sheer firepower or speed Choice possesses. If you don't mind Raseri, I'd like to wait for another QC memeber to chime in on this.

    <Cherubi> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4310908#post4310908
    <Cherubi> 'nen
    <Keiran> how could i start
    <Keiran> this duosion analysis
    <Keiran> overview
    <Cherubi> talk about how rubbish it is
    <Cherubi> compared to mush
    <Cherubi> nah jk
    <Cherubi> ummm
    <Cherubi> ah i'll leave you to it
    <shnen> I wanted to keep 555 posts cherub
    <shnen> but ok stamped
    <shnen> I've always thought physical was overrated
    <Keiran> shnen just delete an old post
    <shnen> n
    <shnen> I must now make it to 666
    <Keiran> pc++ing cunt

    EDIT: oh you did post
  11. shnen

    shnen שוני
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 13, 2011
    physical really isn't that great in my opinion, I'd definitely keep choice above it.

  12. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    May 8, 2011
    Yeah, Choice Specs Charizard is good in and outside of sun. Rapid Spin support is even more useful for it though than the other sets because it can't Roost off the damage.

  13. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken until we feel alright!
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    Super Moderator

    Oct 7, 2011
    Cherub Agent requested that someone else take this over.

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