Charizard

[Josh Morales]

Deoxys-S should be removed from the check and counter list.

 

[trc]

Oh my god I finished writing it and fixed everything to be relevant for the current metagame. I am (finally) ready for some QC checks, and sorry this took so long, it's a mammoth read x.x

 

[Ptyra]

108 Spe EVs are useless on the Bulky DD, 64 Spe EVs suffice to outspeed Greninja at +1.

So I think the spread 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 Spe is better.

 

[trc]

108 Spe EVs are useless on the Bulky DD, 64 Spe EVs suffice to outspeed Greninja at +1.

So I think the spread 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 Spe is better.

You are correct, I'm not sure why the Speed investment was specified like that, I assume it was leftover from an error when I copied Subject18s skeleton. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[boltsandbombers]

You are correct, I'm not sure why the Speed investment was specified like that, I assume it was leftover from an error when I copied Subject18s skeleton. Thanks for pointing that out.

Aren't those speed evs to outspeed jolly breloom?

 

[trc]

lol I completely disregarded the first page of spreads. I'll decide on a speed benchmark on IRC later.

 

[trc]

I fixed the spread.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dont you only need 108 speed evs to outspeed jolly breloom? What are the extra 16 for?

 

[trc]

Actually I'm confused now I'll just fix it later.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Actually I'm confused now I'll just fix it later.

Alright, gotcha.

 

[Ptyra]

I think Flare Bitz should be slashed first in the Bulky WoW set.

Earthquake just allows to beat Heatran, it was slashed first before Aegi's ban.
But now Aegi is banned, Flare Bitz is better. You can't beat Skarmory, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn without Flare Bitz.
The current EV spread allows to outspeed Jolly Mega Heracross, but you need Flare Bitz to OHKO it. Flare Bitz also OHKOs Mega Gardevoir.

 

[Jukain]

this is my preferred ev spread for dd zard x: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe. it outspeeds adamant excadrill, a very significant target that you aren't outspeeding with only these speed evs, as well as jolly mega heracross, which is honestly pretty stupid not to outspeed. you can sacrifice some arbitrary amounts of attack for bulk but i've found the attack better in virtually every scenario. i think this is the best ev spread to use with dd zard x, and that bulkier, weaker ones are simply not as good on the whole. you can go 248 hp / 100 atk / 160 spe for a bulkier spread and 40 hp / 252 atk / 216 spe if you wanna outspeed kyub. suggesting to merge the sets with dd | dclaw | blitz / eq | roost and that as the only ev spread.

 

[trc]

Done Jukain.

 

[Baharoth]

Short overview over the possible speed tiers:

16 -> outspeeds adamant Bisharp/Breloom
32 -> outspeeds jolly Ttar
108 -> outspeeds all of Adamant Dragonite/Gyarados/Mamoswine and Jolly Breloom/Bisharp
120 -> outspeeds jolly mega Ttar
152 -> outspeeds jolly mega Heracross
160 -> outspeeds adamant Excadrill

Regarding the Bulky WoW set, if you invest 152 to get the jump on Heracross you can just as well add 8 more to cover Excadrill as well. Can be crucial to burn it before it hits you with EQ. Also i would like to quote myself from last page here:

When using Flareblitz investing 28 EVs into attack almost doubles the chance of a 2hko against physical defensive Clefable from 35,5% to 64,5%

Imo its worth a mention in set details.

 

[PurpleCordial]

SDef probably needs a new EV spread now that Mawile is banned

 

[aim]

i'd also put somewhere next to the celebi mention that it can baton pass substitutes to charizard (vs mega scizor for example) and give you a scary sd/dd mega zard behind a sub. don't forget to take out any mention of banned pokemon such as mawile. anyway 1/3 broski (why was i the first check)

 

[trc]

i'd also put somewhere next to the celebi mention that it can baton pass substitutes to charizard (vs mega scizor for example) and give you a scary sd/dd mega zard behind a sub. don't forget to take out any mention of banned pokemon such as mawile. anyway 1/3 broski (why was i the first check)

done, thanks dude :]

 

[Baharoth]

Regarding the Bulky WoW set, if you invest 152 to get the jump on Heracross you can just as well add 8 more to cover Excadrill as well. Can be crucial to burn it before it hits you with EQ. Also i would like to quote myself from last page here:

TRC Quoting myself here cause i am beeing ignored again. At least give a short statement why you dont want to go for 160 speed on the bulky WoW set. I am realy curious to know why outspeeding and burning/killing adamant Excadrill (which is on 50% of the teams atm) is not worth investing 8 more EVs. So please enlighten me.

 

[boltsandbombers]

TRC Quoting myself here cause i am beeing ignored again. At least give a short statement why you dont want to go for 160 speed on the bulky WoW set. I am realy curious to know why outspeeding and burning/killing adamant Excadrill (which is on 50% of the teams atm) is not worth investing 8 more EVs. So please enlighten me.

I strongly disagree with using that much speed on spdef zard x, as you lose out on a significant amount of special bulk which is needed IMO.

 

[Jukain]

I've talked with you a lot about this, approved 2/3

 

[Baharoth]

I strongly disagree with using that much speed on spdef zard x, as you lose out on a significant amount of special bulk which is needed IMO.

So 8 EVs = significant amount? Are we playing different games? The current spread already has 152 EVs for jolly mega Hera. 8 more and you get the jump on adamant Exca.

 

[boltsandbombers]

So 8 EVs = significant amount? Are we playing different games? The current spread already has 152 EVs for jolly mega Hera. 8 more and you get the jump on adamant Exca.

Ah, nevermind then. I dont usually use that much speed on spdef zard x, I was going off of my experience and not what was changed. I guess the 8 evs might be worth it.

 

[trc]

thx guys :]

 

[trc]

w8 baharoth ill do that sorry I didn't see your post ;~;

 

[Berry Juice]

(from the 3 Attacks + Roost set)

However, the Jolly nature does leave a noticeable power drop, to demonstrate it, +1 Adamant Mega Charizard X is guaranteed to OHKO 252 / 0 Hippowdon with Flare Blitz with just one layer of Spikes (88.8 – 105%), while with a Jolly nature, it needs a little more entry hazards to achieve the KO (80.7 – 95.2%).

Why mention +1 in a set without Dragon Dance?
edit: If you're using +1 just to compare the damage difference between Adamant and Jolly, ignore me