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Discussion in 'Dragonspiral Tower' started by Zippo, Sep 29, 2010.
a gimmick set with dragon tail would be pretty nice to see.
Except that Dragon Tail has Roar/Whirlwind's negative priority, and Charizard can -never- afford to take a hit.
when u have charizard out, majority of the time people are goin to switch out for a counter , giving you the chance to dragon tail them right back out. So with SR up and other gimmicky moves it could be pretty fun.
Except with SR up, many players could opt for just taking Charizard out (since it just lost half it's HP switching in) instead of switching
i know char is very weak to SR and not very bulky. So if i was going to use a gimmicky type set id lead off with him. Due to charizards unpredictable moves you already have some type of advantage. predicting a switch turn one gives you a very good look at your opponents counters. u can even score a random willow wisp lol
Charizard dies in one hit to near everything but Grass or Ground moves. Even if it's sashed, you pull off -one- Dragon Tail, and then promptly die upon switching in later or die to whatever you pulled in. It's not going to work.
most of the leads i come up against arent killing char in one hit unless its supereffective ,banded , or specs. If turn one they go for an atk and it nearly kills me , i reply with a fireblast with blaze activated which goes for a k0 on most leads. if there holding a sash charizard also learns quickattack for the surprise! I know its not the best of tactics but dont get me wrong its just random .
Well, let's look at common occurances of leads then.
Smeargle spores you easily if you don't carry Substitute.
Azelf sets up rocks and knocks you down to a possible sash. It then either Explodes, uses Psychic, or switches to something like Heatran. You fail to stop it, you lose.
Aerodactyl either sets up rocks or knocks you down to sash. Brings in someone with priority. You half-win.
Metagross laughs from an Occa Berry as it simply smashes you.
Machamp uses Stone Edge.
You fail against Ninjask. Dragon Tail does not phaze through Subs. It can abuse Protect and Sub until you miss a Fire Blast, then passes. You lose.
Dragon Tail Charizard completely fails to do anything of note.
Charizard with Solar Power looks good on paper, but is a bit shaky in practice, IMO. If it doesn't have Rapid Spin support, it may die more quickly when the sun is out.
can Espeon use sunny day?
Just have espeon set up a sunny day, even if you have a ninetails since it'll prevent any initial SR from going up, then bring in charizard.
Smart. But I think spending a turn summoning 8 turns of sun is a bit of a waste when you could just switch in for infinite sun. It could be a surprise.
Infinite sun isn't preventing the set up's.
Having 2 sources of sun doesn't hurt either when politoed can be running around.
Too bad all Magic Mirror Pokemon are weak to Pursuit...
The best thing to do is to lead with a Ninetales and then Espeon bounce if it is a Aero Lead.
However, now, the whole team is shown so the surprise is spoiled.
Don't forget that we'll be given to see opponent's team, so the switch to Espeon is SO obvious...
Charizard w/Ninetales, Doryuuzu for Heatran+Rapid Spin, and a Grass type that takes advantage of sunlight would be a nice start for a Sun team IMO.
belly drum+nitro charge? yes please
Assuming you pull off belly drum you can use a couple nitro charges to raise speed while bringing the pain. With two nitro charges and the right nature, ev's, iv's, or a salac berry( assuming you did not use the slot to set up belly drum ie. "enigma berry trick") you should be able to outspeed anything that switches in, making for adequate sweeping.
The issue has never really been Charizard's speed after a Salac Berry boost but more the prevalence of priority attacks. All the speed boosts in the world aren't going to save you from a Aqua Jet or whatnot on your 25% HP Charizard.
This has got me thinking, how does would Cutsap Berry work? I assume it gives you +1 priority for whatever action you're doing for your first turn under 25% health. I would think this would work perfectly with a modified Double-Edge set with Nitro Charge. Belly Drum against the inevitable bulky water switch in followed by Double Edge to knock you down to 25% and take it out if you play well enough. In my experience, most people will then send out a priority/Scarf user, or simply an outright faster Pokemon. Use Nitro Charge and Cutsap should give it +1 priority, which puts it on par with any priority move bar ExtremeSpeed now. +6 Nitro Charge should bring down most priority users before they can get you (unless you're staring down an Ice Shard Weavile or other over 100 base speed priority user, which is pretty rare) and other speedy-yet-frail threats such as Gengar. The end result is the exact same as using the Salac Berry, only you've killed two Pokemon instead of one and are in a much better position (but still not guaranteed) to sweep having brought down a Scarf User/priority user. If you can't bring down the Pokemon that switched in with Nitro Charge after the DE (such as ScarfChomp), just Cutsap EQ it. Even if you die the next turn...you took out freaking ScarfChomp (more than an admirable trade for your boss NU fire dragon)! If neither move can take the switch in after DE down (such as Latias), just Cutsap DE again and kill yourself. Even in the worst-case scenario, you've just traded one of your Pokemon for two of their more-likely stronger ones. A job well done I say.
Of course, this depends on if my understanding of Cutsap is correct. Firestorm is right though, Charizard's big issue is the absurd about of priority being thrown about since Gen 4, rendering not only him, but most Endrev sweepers completely and totally obsolete without a priority move of their own.
I'm still experimenting with Solar Power as to exactly what one can do with it, with some surprisingly promising results, but Solar Power (nor Flash Fire, nor any other ability in the game) is not the thing Charizard needed most: a fire priority move. Even Stealth Rock has never been nearly as much a hindrance to me as a Bellyzard player as much as the endless amount of priority moves.
That's not really an issue with Espeon since it can BP out without activating Pursuit.
I would like to reopen the discussion, if I may, on the subject of Solar Power Charizard. If and when Charizard's dream world ability is released (made substantially stronger if and when Ninetale's dream world ability is relased), Charizard reaches a staggering 522 special attack (or an equally intimidating 475 if a timid nature is used). With a pair of choice specs and Sunny Day already boosting the power of his fire moves, Charizard becomes capable of inflicting absurd amounts of damage to almost anything in the game. Not even Blissey can sponge these hits with impunity.
In fact,a max special attack Charizard with Choice Specs and Solar Power in the sun will inflict between 80% ~ 95% to standard bold blissey with max HP EVs and no SpD investment, which has almost a 50% chance of OHKOing if stealth rock is in play.
This same Charizard will inflict between ~61% and ~72% to a max SpD/HP calm Blissey with overheat which will almost always 2HKO factoring in stealth rock and leftovers.
And this is all without any turns of setup - The only thing Charizard requires is that the sun be shining. How many pokemon in the game can put up numbers even remotely similar to that the turn they switch in? In fact, modest, specs, solar power Charizard's overheat outdamages even a water spout from a modest specs Kyogre.
All of this does not come without a price, however. Charizard is no Kyogre. Paper thin defenses and a 4x weakness to stealth rock plagued Charizard last gen, and it isn't unreasonable to assume that this gen will be no different. Those that have BW and have played on WiFi as well as those who played in the 5th Gen alpha test of Pokemon Online tell me that stealth rock is less prevalent, and it is always true that Charizard can be supported with rapid spin; however, even when stealth rocks are not in play Charizard has other problems.
Unlike Kyogre, Charizard does not provide his own sun so he will almost certainly never find a place except in a dedicated Sunny Day team; however, while in a sunny day team we can rely on the sun being out a majority of the time so this is not so much of an issue. The only real circumstances wherein a sunny day team would expect their weather to be interrupted frequently are against other weather teams; Since the majority of the Pokemon who are good sun sweepers are, in fact, grass type we can expect a Sunny Day team to be very strong in a match-up against a rain team (consisting of mostly water Pokemon) or a sand team (which we can expect to contain a large number of ground/rock Pokemon). So, in a sunny day team the fact that Charizard doesn't provide his own sun is not so detrimental.
A larger problem for Charizard is that when he is not in the sun, he loses both his second stab on fire moves and an effective third of his special attack stat. This is devastating, at only 2/3 SpA he becomes a mediocre specs user with below average defensive stats.
This makes Tyranitar such a good counter to specs Charizard that it is almost absurd. With a resistance to both of Charizard's STABs, the ability to dispel sun upon coming into play coupled with powerful SpD in the Sand even with no EVs invested, Tyranitar has almost nothing to fear from a specs Charizard. Furthermore, in addition to threatening an easy KO with STAB 4x effective Stone Edge, since a switch-out is so easy to predict, a Dragon Dance Tyranitar can get a free boost and any other variety of Tyranitar can pursuit for at least 55% (Min from a jolly Tyranitar) ranging up to 89% (Max from an adamant, banded Tyranitar) which will KO factoring in one turn of Solar Power damage. Even if it doesn't KO, 60+% damage greatly hampers the effectiveness of Charizard due to the burn it will be taking from Solar Power in any case. Any kind of Charizard on any team will have to carry something to deal with Tyranitar or consign itself to waiting for any opposing Tyranitars to be eliminated before it comes in.
Perhaps the biggest flaw with Charizard, and if any deficiency makes it unsuitable for competitive play it will be this one, is its speed. 100 base speed is nothing to scoff at; however, it doesn't outspeed enough things to be an effective sweeper given its almost non-existent defenses.
All in all, I think the most immediately damaging set a Charizard could run would look something like this:
Charizard @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 Def
-Hidden Power (Ground)/(Grass)
-Focus Blast/Focus Punch
It is important to note that 4 HP EVs should not be substituted for the 4 Def EVs. With no investment and max IVs, Charizard naturally has 297 HP. This means he can use 9 attacks (or 5 if he switches in to Stealth Rocks) before he dies, rather than 8 (4).
Overheat is the crux of this set. This Charizard does not like to stay in after his attacks. With poor defenses and Solar Power burn, he is forced to switch out against anything that boasts either higher speed or any kind of priority, so there is no real reason to use fire blast over Overheat. Further it boasts higher accuracy and more stopping power when compared to Fire Blast.
Flamethrower is another absurdly powerful move in the sun, and can be used instead of overheat in situations where accuracy is a deciding factor, or in situations where Charizard might not be switching out immediately. Air Slash, on the other hand, is Charizard's other STAB and gives him neutral coverage vs Dragons and Water which he would otherwise have some trouble against.
Hidden Power (Ground) grants Super-Effective coverage for Fire and Rock type Pokemon, and grants an important KO against Heatran who would otherwise be able to switch in for a free flash fire boost. Hidden Power (Grass) grants Super Effective coverage of Water and Rock type Pokemon; Focus Blast can still deal with Heatran effectively, provided the accuracy doesn't concern you.
Focus Blast will KO incoming Tyranitars and Heatran, but the accuracy if off-putting. Focus Punch may be used as a substitute if you are extremely confident about your prediction abilities. If you do so, a Def or SpD reducing nature should be used, in order to get the necessary KOs.
But yeah, the basic idea is that you switch in on a predicted or choiced Ground attack, or you switch in after one of your Pokemon is fainted, and you proceed (with a little prediction) to absolutely destroy whatever your opponent switches in.
I never understood why Sunny Day itself can't be used on a Charizard set (well obviously not a specs set, but a LO set or something). It addresses the aforementioned problem of simply switching a perma-weather Pokemon into it. If you predict a weather user, simply re-cast Sunny Day - their weather will activate before you move, killing your infinite sun, but your Sunny Day right after cancels out their weather and you're immediately on the offensive again, and the opponent has a dilemma. Without weather on their side, they will have to retreat and have another Pokemon potentially take a Fire Blast/Overheat/Flamethrower/whatever to the face so they can try to change the weather again at a later time, or they can risk having their weather-inducer killed off by...
~ 252 Modest LO Solarbeam vs 252/172 Careful Hippowdon: 475 - 559 (113%-133%. OHKO)
~ vs 252/216 Careful Tyrannitar: 369 - 434 (91% - 107%. Chance of OHKO. Most TTars will not be running this spread, so most times it will be a OHKO. Watch out for Scarftar though)
~ vs 252/252 Calm Politoed: 358 - 422 (93% - 110%. Almost guaranteed OHKO)
What would be an infallible strategy against a drought-only team turns right on its head when you have your own personal sun you can pull out when the situation arises.
Think of it this way: It's like a Nasty Plot (technically more for Fire type attacks, giving a 2.26x boost as opposed to 2x, and a 1.5x boost to other attacks in exchange) that doesn't automatically go away after switching out. Even with 4 turns, Charizard usually kills itself between 4-5 turns with a LO anyway, so that's plenty of time for even non-Heat Rock Sunny Day to work its magic. Of course that won't work for the specs set, but that's why I wouldn't use the specs set in the first place: too dependent on Ninetales' Drought. I feel like its potential is wasted when it could be self-sufficient
That's not to say you can't run Drought Ninetales with Sunny Day. Run it with Drought Ninetales by all means. If you still have eternal sun from Ninetales when Charizard comes into play, just skip straight to the butt whooping. It will just have the tools necessary to take on Pokemon that will come in to stop your infinite sun and keep momentum in your favor with a few extra turns of sun. Hopefully it'll at least buy you some time and an opening to switch Ninetales back in for infinite sun. And a set that looks something like this:
Charizard @ Life Orb/Heat Rock
4 whatever/252 Sp Attack/252 Speed
~HP Ground/Dragon Pulse (depending on whether you fear Heatran and other Flash Fire users or Dragons more)
Doesn't lose much more coverage than what your specs set has. Not to mention it's still completely usable not only on non-sun teams, but usable in the interrem when Drought Ninetales has yet to be released.
Everything else you said was a valid point however, especially the speed. That will be any Solar Power set's biggest obstacle. But I felt like I should mention this because I've been researching this for a few weeks now and found a self-sufficient Charizard to be very promising. I have to do a few more calculations for the third coverage slot, as well as attempting a mix Solar Power Bellyzard set (because so far the only bulky water to give the above set trouble of Tentacruel), and seeing damage calculations for using Heat Rock over Life Orb. I just felt the need to say this because one of your biggest arguments against Charizard is what I've ben trying to work towards solving for a while now.
You could also run both HP Ground and Dragon Pulse, and get someone else to set up Sun for you (IE, Ninetales). Actually, HP Rock or HP Electric can be used to hit all of Heatran / Dragons / Flash Firers neutrally when in conjunction with its other moves, so maybe those are better options if Charizard only has three attacks.
What reason would anyone have to use charizard over urugamoth or heatran? The solar power boost may be significant, but after sr damage and a possible orb, it will ko itself in 3 turns, less if it takes any damage beforehand, and choice sets tend to switch a lot. Urugamoth on the other hand has much more special attack after 1 butterfly dance along with speed and special bulk along with an actually useful secondary stab. As a choice user, heatran is superior due to no sr weakness, useful resists and better coverage. Even the belly drum set is outclassed by hihidaruma now who has much higher attack, isn't 4x sr weak and has more powerful stabs due to encourage. As it stands there is no viable reason to use charizard in OU.
Ulgamoth. Might as well use the full romanization.
Reason? Belly Drum. Fastest user of it. Charizard is. (Not counting Smeargle, he's a big cheater.) That's pretty much the main reason.
And it's not like Ulgamoth doesn't also suffer from the SR problem. :0 If you're using Charizard, you probably take the same countermeasures as you do with Ulgamoth... get a Spinner.