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Charmander (Analysis) [QC 0/2]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Banryu, Nov 17, 2010.

  1. Banryu

    Banryu

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    [​IMG]
    Charmander
    Status: Done, needs checking

    [Overview]

    <p>Charmander returns to Little Cup in the 5th Generation to find himself sorely outclassed in a new, more dangerous metagame. The introduction of Nitro Charge brought about many new threats to compete with Charmander for slots on a team, most notably Darumakka, and the infamous Dragon Dancing Scraggy greatly usurps Charmander's previous position as a Steel-killing Dragon Dancer. It isn't fully outclassed by any of these threats, however; in each instance it has qualities that still make it an option, such as being more versatile than Darumaka and its ability to OHKO Bronzor and Ferroseed, which Scraggy can't manage. Charmander hasn't changed much, but the metagame changing around it sure makes life difficult for it.</p>

    [Set]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: ThunderPunch / Rock Slide
    item: Life Orb / Oran Berry
    nature: Adamant
    ability: Blaze
    EVs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>Though Nitro Charge's popularity might give it competition, Charmander is still the only Fire-type with access to Dragon Dance, giving it a slight edge up on his competitors. This Charmander's main job is to take out Steel-types with its powerful boosted STAB Flare Blitz. Thunderpunch and Brick Break provide fantastic additional supereffective coverage against Water-types and such threats as Houndour, Munchlax, Scraggy, and so forth respectively. Life Orb and Flare Blitz recoil, combined with Charmander's fragile constitution, means that it needs to hit hard and fast to cause as much damage as possible before it goes down.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Lack of priority really hurts Charmander, and thus it is extremely vulnerable to nearly all forms of priority attacks. Make sure to steer clear of priority users, or to clear them out before setting Charmander up to sweep.</p>

    [Set]
    name: Nitro Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Nitro Charge
    move 3: Dragon Claw
    move 4: Substitute / Fire Punch
    item: Oran Berry / Life Orb / Salac Berry
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Blaze
    EVs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>Charmander and Torchic are the only two Pokemon in Little Cup to get the combination of Swords Dance and Nitro Charge, and of the two, Charmander is clearly superior at it with access to physical Fire STAB outside of Nitro Charge, as well as impeccable 2-move coverage with Fire Punch (or Nitro Charge) and Dragon Claw. Setting up can be extremely tricky, but with the proper prediction, it's even more a force to be reckoned with than the Dragon Dance set.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Since Nitro Charge becomes quite strong after a Swords Dance and the extra Speed is extremely helpful, Substitute makes a good move on the set, as it allows for safer setup after forcing a switch against Teshiido or others that would be scared away by it. If you want to opt for more immediate power, Fire Punch or even Flare Blitz can be used.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>Wynaut support is practically necessary for Charmander's success; Wynaut can trap and beat any priority users that might threaten Charmander's sweep later, and furthermore can abuse Shadow Tag and Encore to give Charmander an opportunity to switch in and set up.</p>

    <p>Dragon-type Dragon Dancers like Dratini and Axew really appreciate Charmander as a teammate, due to his ability to clear out the Steel-types that plague these dragons' attempts to sweep. Dragon Dance or Choice Scarf Axew in particular is deadly with Steels out of the way, as it packs one of the strongest Outrages in the game; a team without a Steel-type has little defense against such a threat. Additionally, you can also use Charmander's talents with other sweepers like Taillow that appreciate having Steel-types out of the picture.</p>

    [Optional Changes]
    <p>Boosting moves aside, Charmander's Special Attack is its best asset, and a special set consisting of Flamethrower, Hidden Power (Grass/Electric), Dragon Pulse, and Substitute would seem to be Charmander's best bet at running a special-attacking set. Choice Specs or Scarf could also be used with a special set, although Charmander lacks the speed to do the former effectively and the power to do the latter, and also struggles to switch in repeatedly to Stealth Rock. </p>

    <p>Belly Drum is a notorious tool in Charmander's arsenal, though Charmander's mediocre speed, inability to take hits, and abundance of priority moves in the Little Cup metagame make this far difficult to pull off.</p>

    <p>Will-O-Wisp can be used on physical sets to surprise walls such as Gligar, who Charmander has trouble damaging, though it requires taking up a move slot that Charmander would often rather have an attack in.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Countering Charmander is pretty simple and straightforward: if you're faster and can hit it supereffectively, you KO it. If you can survive one of its attacks and hit it supereffectively, you KO it. If you have Aqua Jet, you can KO it, or if it's weakened by some combination of Stealth Rock damage, Flare Blitz recoil, and Life Orb damage, pretty much any priority attack not named Ice Shard will KO it. The bottom line is Charmander is fragile, and not very difficult to KO, especially after it has accumulated some self-inflicted damage from Life Orb or Flare Blitz, which it practically needs in order to hit anything for decent damage, especially in a metagame loaded with Evo Stone walls and bulky sweepers. Exceptionally noteworthy counters include fast scarfers like Gligar, who can easily outspeed and OHKO Charmander even with a Dance under its belt.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Charmander gets Solar Power from the Dream World. Unfortunately, this ability is exclusive to male Charmander, and thus is not available for use in Little Cup.</p>
  2. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Skeleton is complete.
  3. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Torchic's DW Ability is Speed Boost, so it shouldn't be mentioned?

    Also, can Zuruggu really not OHKO Tesshildo with +1 HJK?

    Also, Fire/Dragon[/Grass] hits what that Fire/Grass/Rock doesn't? Neutrally of course.

    Mention to run Timid/Modest if not using Rock Slide on the first set.
  4. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    If Zuruggu OHKO'd Bronzor and Tesshido, that is a big disadvantage to it. It can use them for Drain Punch healing, and can set up Dragon Dances on most of them(except for Thunder Wave Teshido).
  5. Banryu

    Banryu

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    As what, competition? :0

    Yeah, you're right. :o I actually haven't checked this, I don't really know where to find a reliable 5th gen damage calculator... so I don't know that Zuruggu can't OHKO it. :\ I've just been using Smogon's 4th-Gen one, and while I can theorymon about +1 DDmander OHKOing Teshiido with FB, I have no idea about Zuruggu's HJK. :0 However, I can somewhat-reasonably assume at least that Charmander does slightly better against Bronzor. Zuruggu is neutral against Bronzor and 2x SE against Teshiido, while Charmander is 2x SE on Bronzor and 4x SE on Teshiido. I guess we'll have to wait and see if it makes a difference. (until I find a calc or someone to give me calcs. -_-')

    If it does turn out that Zuruggu can take these guys out as easily as Charmander can, then yeah, clearly DDmander is outclassed and I'll take it off the analysis.

    True, but in this case, it's more about SE coverage... specifically, SE coverage against stuff that resists those ridiculous STAB Sunny Solar-powered Fire Blasts. HP Grass is obv for Water-types, Rock-types too, and Rock Slide is for Flash Fire pokes (and Mantyke, who is neutral to Grass and has absurd Sp. Def). Dragon Pulse, obviously, will hit the resistant Dragons and is better when going all Special, but IMO it's more important to hit the Waters and Flash Fires. Although, Fire-Dragon being unresisted in LC is pretty good too.

    In any case, are you suggesting that I slash Dragon Pulse over HP Grass, or what?

    Ah, of course, of course.
  6. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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  7. Banryu

    Banryu

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    ...so... is that a problem, or...?
  8. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    No?
  9. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    needs a scarf set.

    with solar power + sun boost + stab, all you need is neutral coverage. dp is better. lso lets you go all-special.
  10. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Scarf set was rejected when I proposed it in the 4th Gen analysis... I had some success with it in testing, but the QC team maintained that it wasn't good enough to have its own set. :0 Frankly, I doubt that will have changed now, but it may be worth a shot now with Solar Power. At worst, I'll give it a mention in OO or whatever it's called these days.
  11. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Thread needs to be updated, as Solar Power is apparently a no-go for LC Charmander. I'll get to it at some point this week or next...
  12. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Wrote up the analysis, ready to go to QC.

    Am I allowed to reserve another analysis at this point, or does it need to get QC'd and GP'd first?
  13. (makeup)

    (makeup) kevin
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    This is the correct format

    [box][Overview]

    <p>Charmander returns to Little Cup in the 5th Generation to find himself sorely outclassed in a new, more dangerous metagame. The introduction of Nitro Charge brought about many new threats to compete with Charmander for slots on a team, most notably Darumakka, and the infamous Dragon Dancing Zuruggu greatly usurps Charmander's previous position as a Steel-killing Dragon Dancer. It isn't fully outclassed by any of these threats, however; in each instance it has qualities that still make it an option, such as being more versatile than Darumakka and its ability to OHKO Bronzor and Teshiido, which Zuruggu can't manage. Charmander hasn't changed much, but the metagame changing around it sure makes life difficult for it.</p>

    [Set]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: ThunderPunch / Rock Slide
    item: Life Orb / Oran Berry
    nature: Adamant
    ability: Blaze
    EVs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>Though Nitro Charge's popularity might give it competition, Charmander is still the only Fire-type with access to Dragon Dance, giving it a slight edge up on his competitors. This Charmander's main job is to take out Steel-types with its powerful boosted STAB Flare Blitz. Thunderpunch and Brick Break provide fantastic additional supereffective coverage against Water-types and such threats as Houndour, Munchlax, Zuruggu, and so forth respectively. Life Orb and Flare Blitz recoil, combined with Charmander's fragile constitution, means that it needs to hit hard and fast to cause as much damage as possible before it goes down.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Lack of priority really hurts Charmander, and thus it is extremely vulnerable to nearly all forms of priority attacks. Make sure to steer clear of priority users, or to clear them out before setting Charmander up to sweep.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>Wynaut support is practically necessary for Charmander's success; Wynaut can trap and beat any priority users that might threaten Charmander's sweep later, and furthermore can abuse Shadow Tag and Encore to give Charmander an opportunity to switch in and set up.</p>

    <p>Dragon-type Dragon Dancers like Dratini and Kibago really appreciate Charmander as a teammate, due to his ability to clear out the Steel-types that plague these dragons' attempts to sweep. Dragon Dance or Choice Scarf Kibago in particular is deadly with Steels out of the way, as it packs one of the strongest Outrages in the game which will tear through teams lacking Steel-type defenses.</p>

    [Set]
    name :Nitro Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Nitro Charge
    move 3: Dragon Claw
    move 4: Substitute / Fire Punch
    item: Oran Berry / Life Orb / Salac Berry
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Blaze
    EVs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>Charmander and Torchic are the only two Pokemon in Little Cup to get the combination of Swords Dance and Nitro Charge, and of the two, Charmander is clearly superior at it with access to physical Fire STAB outside of Nitro Charge, as well as impeccable 2-move coverage with Fire Punch (or Nitro Charge) and Dragon Claw. Setting up can be extremely tricky, but with the proper prediction, it's even more a force to be reckoned with than the Dragon Dance set.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Since Nitro Charge becomes quite strong after a Swords Dance and the extra Speed is extremely helpful, Substitute makes a good move on the set, as it allows for safer setup after forcing a switch against Teshiido or others that would be scared away by it. If you want to opt for more immediate power, Fire Punch or even Flare Blitz can be used.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Countering Charmander is pretty simple and straightforward: if you're faster and can hit it supereffectively, you KO it. If you can survive one of its attacks and hit it supereffectively, you KO it. If you have Aqua Jet, you can KO it, or if it's weakened by some combination of Stealth Rock damage, Flare Blitz recoil, and Life Orb damage, pretty much any priority attack not named Ice Shard will KO it. The bottom line is Charmander is fragile, and not very difficult to KO, especially after it has accumulated some self-inflicted damage from Life Orb or Flare Blitz, which it practically needs in order to hit anything for decent damage, especially in a metagame loaded with Evo Stone walls and bulky sweepers. Exceptionally noteworthy counters include fast scarfers like Gligar, who can easily outspeed and OHKO Charmander even with a Dance under its belt.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Charmander gets Solar Power from the Dream World. Unfortunately, this ability is exclusive to male Charmander, and thus is not available for use in Little Cup.</p>[/box]
  14. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Thanks, sorry I'm kind of rusty analysis-wise, and fixed.
  15. (makeup)

    (makeup) kevin
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    Not a problem. Just a nitpick, this is my fault for accidentally putting it, but here:

    The colon should be on the left side of the space. My fault, sorry. Good write up by the way
  16. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Hey, man, that's the whole reason why we do this. :P No worries and thanks.
  17. ShinyAzelf

    ShinyAzelf
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    I don't like Swords Dance + Flame Charge, honestly. It's hard to set up, and priority still ends up beating it. Move that to Optional Changes.

    Your Team Options section is in the wrong place, it should be like: [Overview], [Set], [Set Comments], [Additional Comments], [Team Options], [Optional Changes] (which you don't have), and [Counters].

    I'll help you out a bit for Optional Changes.

    Mention a Special set with Flamethrower | Dragon Pulse | Hidden Power Grass / Electric | Substitute.

    Also mention Belly Drum in Optional Changes, though you should also say that even after setting up Belly Drum, it is still very hard to sweep due to priority.

    Will-o-Wisp can be mentioned too. It surprises physical walls such as Gligar who think they can come in and counter the Dragon Dance set, only to get burned.

    Let me know when you are finished, and I will stamp this!
  18. Banryu

    Banryu

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    Thanks for the suggestions. Didn't realize I'd forgotton 2 so very important sections. -_-'

    The Sub-special set is actually pretty interesting to me though, is there any chance that could actually be viable for its own set in the analysis? And yeah, maybe the Nitro Dance set should replace it in OC.

    Fixed for now... I would like some more opinions on the Sub-Special and Nitro Dance sets.
  19. ShinyAzelf

    ShinyAzelf
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    I talked this over with SDS, and we decided that Charmander is another Pokemon that doesn't deserve an analysis at the moment.

    The Dragon Dance set is not hard to wall, and is quite hard to set up considering how frail Charmander is.

    The other set is even worse, because its hard to set up Flame Charge and Swords Dance, and if people use Substitute (a lot would, because its the main slash), then Charmander is stuck with Dragon Claw to hurt opposing Pokemon (STAB Flame Charge is weaker than Dragon Claw).

    For those reasons, I am sorry to tell you that I have to reject this.

    QC Rejected: 1/2
  20. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
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    Agreeing with SDS and SA concerning Charmander, at the moment.

    (QC Rejected 2/2)

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